24-11-2002 02:06									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten A playoff will always give undeserving teams a shot at the title, so I don't see how the guaranteed unfairness of a playoff is better than the theoretical unfairness of the BCS.

I guess it's a question of the degree of unfairness. A playoff will give undeserving teams a shot, true, but if they're undeserving, they'll probably lose anyway so it's not all that unfair. If they happen to win - well, I suppose it's somewhat unfair to the 'deserving' teams, but how deserving are they if they lose?

(Keeping the playoff as small as possible - as few as 4 teams in some years, as many as eight in others, or only a single title game if there are consensus undefeated #1 and #2 teams - would help eliminate the unfairness of the truly deserving teams being subjected to extra hurdles when they've proved themselves in the season.)

On the other hand, take this year for example. If Miami loses, then the BCS will have to pick one of about 3 or 4 1-loss teams to play for the title. If OSU wins that title game, no problem - they deserve to be #1, nothing unfair about that. The problem is if OSU loses the Fiesta, then you have 3 or 4 teams all arguing that they should have had the chance to play OSU and be #1. That, to me, is more unfair than the playoff would be.

(edit typo)

	24-11-2002 02:09									#452
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I see Ming and I agree again...

	24-11-2002 02:12									#453
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quote: You seem to think that a undefeated team that has to win a playoff to prove they are the best is unfair. What could possibly be unfair about asking a team to prove they are the best by winning?

It's unfair because it negates all of the hard work they put into going undefeated in the regular season. We should reward teams that achieve perfection in the regular season, not force them to prove themselves again against teams that couldn't achieve the same level of performance. The regular season should be the most important part of college football, not just a means of qualifying for the "real" season, ie: a playoff.

quote: Keeping the playoff as small as possible - as few as 4 teams in some years, as many as eight in others, or only a single title game if there are consensus undefeated #1 and #2 teams - would help eliminate the unfairness of the truly deserving teams being subjected to extra hurdles when they've proved themselves in the season.

I like this idea. I don't think that it is feasible in real life, but I wouldn't be opposed to it.

	24-11-2002 02:16									#454
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I agree, it's unfeasible. Most ideas that everyone would agree with, are.

I can't see Bowl organizers being willing to wait until early December before finding out whether their particular Bowl will host a first round game in an 8 team playoff, or no playoff game at all.

	24-11-2002 02:17									#455
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten [It's unfair because it negates all of the hard work they put into going undefeated in the regular season. We should reward teams that achieve perfection in the regular season

Uhhhhh.... what if Bowling Green had gone undefeated...
Your BCS system would say... Screw you... we don't care about all your hard work... we dont' care that you went undefeated... your season means NOTHING to us, even though you are a 1 - A team, your season was irrelevent.

TALK AOBUT UNFAIR!

Sorry... you can't have it both ways.

Teams that have a perfect regular season SHOULD be rewarded for their efforts... they would be rewarded by being given a shot at the national title. And all they have to do is win on the field of battle to get it.

	24-11-2002 02:21									#456
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quote: Uhhhhh.... what if Bowling Green had gone undefeated... Your BCS system would say... Screw you... we don't care about all your hard work... we dont' care that you went undefeated... your season means NOTHING to us, even though you are a 1 - A team, your season was irrelevent.

You can't seriously consider an undefeated Bowling Green season to be anywhere near as impressive as an undefeated season by Miami or Ohio State. When Bowling Green plays some real teams in non-conference, then they can have a legitimate shot at the title. Until then, I don't care how much they ***** about non-existant unfairness.

	24-11-2002 02:29									#457
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten [You can't seriously consider an undefeated Bowling Green season to be anywhere near as impressive as an undefeated season by Miami or Ohio State. When Bowling Green plays some real teams in non-conference, then they can have a legitimate shot at the title. Until then, I don't care how much they ***** about non-existant unfairness.

Your whole argument is based on keeping the regular season relevent... Yet you are telling like 50 teams that they shouldn't even bother to play the season because they are irrelevent... and that you don't care.

Your logic is faulty.

Fairness is making a team WIN to get a championship.
Unfairness is not even allowing teams to have a chance.

	24-11-2002 02:33									#458
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quote: Yet you are telling like 50 teams that they shouldn't even bother to play the season because they are irrelevent... and that you don't care.

They can easily make themselves relevant by playing a tough non-conference schedule. Just look at Fresno State last year; if they would've went undefeated they would have deserved a shot at the national title. So where's the unfairness? All you have to do is play a quality schedule to become relevant...

quote: Your logic is faulty.

You wish.

	24-11-2002 02:38									#459
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No need to wish... you prove your faulty logic with every additional post you make.

First... you say you don't want to make the regular season irrelevent... yet the BCS does that to over a 1/3 of the teams in 1 - A.

Second... you say that hard work and perfection should be rewarded... and then you say that you don't care if Bowling Green works hard and goes undefeated...

Yeah... you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth... changing from one argument to another, depending on what corner you are backed into... contridicting yourself every chance you can get.

Most of the people that have voted realize how corrupt, unfair, and stupid the BCS system is. Your defense of it is getting desperate at best

	24-11-2002 02:59									#460
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quote: No need to wish... you prove your faulty logic with every additional post you make.

quote: and then you say that you don't care if Bowling Green works hard and goes undefeated...

Bowling Green's "hard work"? That's a good one!

quote: contridicting yourself every chance you can get.

I'd absolutely love to see an example of where I've contradicted myself. I've consistently stated that I believe that teams who go undefeated against a quality schedule are the only ones truly deserving of a shot at the national title. Just because I don't put the quality schedule bit in every post I make doesn't mean that it isn't still an integral part of my argument. Excuse me for thinking that people could accurately recall what my arguments are and have been...

quote: Most of the people that have voted realize how corrupt, unfair, and stupid the BCS system is.

Most people are idiots. On the bright side, 23.68% of Apolytoners seem to still have a brain left...

	24-11-2002 03:00									#461
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Let the riots begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!

WOW what a game the Buckeyes are going to Tempe


There is no stoping the Buckeyes.


Go Bucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In Tressel we trust!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	24-11-2002 03:07									#462
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I'd absolutely love to see an example of where I've contradicted myself. I've consistently stated that I believe that teams who go undefeated against a quality schedule are the only ones truly deserving of a shot at the national title. Just because I don't put the quality schedule bit in every post I make doesn't mean that it isn't still an integral part of my argument.

Your comments about keeping the regular season relevent... a classic example of how you contradict yourself... Again, you are supporting a system that makes over 1/3 of the teams in 1 - A totally irrelevent.

Oh... to look at the poll results in a different way... 68.5% (a clear majority) think you are wrong. So it's nice to see that a clear majority of the voters in this poll have a brain

	24-11-2002 03:16									#463
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Your comments about keeping the regular season relevent... a classic example of how you contradict yourself... Again, you are supporting a system that makes over 1/3 of the teams in 1 - A totally irrelevent.

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten They can easily make themselves relevant by playing a tough non-conference schedule. Just look at Fresno State last year; if they would've went undefeated they would have deserved a shot at the national title. So where's the unfairness? All you have to do is play a quality schedule to become relevant...

So how exactly is the irrelevancy of Bowling Green and other crap teams the fault of the BCS and not their own scheduling?

More importantly, why do Bowling Green et al deserve a shot at the national title when their schedules are jokes? You must have something better than the "but they're a D-1 team" whine. The wide gap in talent in Division-1 makes this a rather unconvincing argument...

	24-11-2002 03:16									#464
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We need someone called 'Peacemaker' posting in this thread Very appropriate.

Split the difference, guys, go with my solution... it will bring peace in our time

Now, I'm off to the mideast...

	24-11-2002 03:17									#465
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Again... you are saying that these teams seasons are irrelevent... yet you claim the regular season should be relevent. You can't have it both ways

	24-11-2002 03:20									#466
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I've always said that a regular season played against a quality schedule should be the most important and relevant yardstick for measuring college football teams. To claim that I've said anything different is to put words in my mouth.

Play a good schedule and you become relevant. It's really quite simple.

	24-11-2002 03:27									#467
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Whether you like it or not... ALL these teams are in the SAME division. You may not like that, or think they don't deserve to be... but the simple fact is, THEY ARE.

A championship playoff system like the current BCS is COMPLETELY unfair to over 1/3 of teams... making them irrelevent before the first game is even played.

This is FAR MORE unfair then making a team play a 3 game playoff to prove they are the best.

So every time you are saying it's unfair to such a such a team, it's not even close to the injustice being done to 1/3 of the teams in 1 - A... It's all hypocrasy on your part

	24-11-2002 03:36									#468
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This isn't the NFL, Ming. Despite the fact that Bowling Green and Ohio State are technically in the same division, it is completely absurd to argue that an undefeated season by Bowling Green is even in the same galaxy in terms of importance as an undefeated season by Ohio State.

If you don't like that, then push for a severe reduction in the number of teams in Division 1. But don't try to label other people as hypocrites just because they can see the obvious realities of the situation. An undefeated season against MAC opponents does not earn you anything, especially not a shot at the national title. It would be like giving the Barcelona Dragons a spot in the Super Bowl if they go undefeated in NFL Europe...

	24-11-2002 03:44									#469
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten It would be like giving the Barcelona Dragons a spot in the Super Bowl if they go undefeated in NFL Europe...

Your comparison is as accurate as the rest of your faulty logic. They aren't in the same league... but Bowling Green and OSU are. So trying to claim differently is just ignoring the facts and reality.

You should be the one arguing to have the these schools that in your opinion suck and don't deserve to be in it, moved to another division. However, based on the Governing Body of College Football... they are all in the same division, and play at the same high level.
Your opinion is meaningless on this issue. The fact is, they ARE 1 - A teams. And the BCS system excludes them from day one. The ultimate in an unfair system.

Again, you are supporting a system set up by a bunch of greedy old bowl committee leaches who are not even involved in the governing body of the sport or the teams that play. Yet you want these guys to control the sport for their own profit.

Fortunately, over two thirds of the people here see just how stupid your position on this issue is

	24-11-2002 03:51									#470
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quote: they are all in the same division, and play at the same high level.

So you're saying that Ohio State and Bowling Green are on the same level quality-wise, just because the NCAA decides to lump them both in the huge category that is Division-1? That they both deserve an equal opportunity at the national title despite the fact that one plays in a quality conference and the other plays in a joke? And you think I'm the one who is out of touch with reality!?!

This might be funny if it wasn't so sad...

	24-11-2002 03:59									#471
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Again... you are ignoring reality... No matter what you or I, or anybody thinks... They are in the same division.
That's reality. The NCAA sets the standards... you and I don't. Just like in any other league, some teams are better than others.. but that doesn't change the fact they are in the same league. Any team that goes undefeated, deserves the chance to prove on the field whether they suck or not... it's that simple. And that's all the LARGE MAJORITY of people at Apolyton are asking for. A playoff system that is more fair than the current system.

In no other sport does the governing body have no say who goes to their own championship... what a farce.
You will say that that is what makes college football great... The majority of people will say that this what is wrong with College Football.

You and the small minority that suport your silly position are wrong

	24-11-2002 04:06									#472
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quote: Any team that goes undefeated, deserves the chance to prove on the field whether they suck or not... it's that simple.

Then I look forward to the days when Nebraska is playing only MAC teams, Florida is playing only Sunbelt teams, and Florida State is playing only ACC teams. Your plan sure will make college football more exciting and interesting, Ming!

	24-11-2002 04:17									#473
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Then I look forward to the days when Nebraska is playing only MAC teams...

Your sense of economics is as faulty as you sense of fairness and logic.
You would have to wait a long time (like when hell freezes over) before Nebraska only played MAC teams.

They would never give up the huge paydays they get by being in the Big 12... That's why Schools join Major Conferences in the first place. Only ND can truely survive on their own and get the big pay days the school desires, and that's mostly because of their private TV deal. Without the Conference TV money and hugh gates provided by other big schools, even a shot at the national championship won't make up the dollar difference for the Universities. So it won't happen. So don't worry about a excitement disappearing from college football.

Again... you come up with another stupid and irrelevent scenario to try to support your unsupportable position of maintaining the silly BCS system.

	24-11-2002 04:24									#474
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quote: Again... you come up with another stupid and irrelevent scenario to try to support your unsupportable position of maintaining the silly BCS system.

I was hardly serious. Just trying to point out how ridiculous it is to consider Bowling Green a quality team with their schedule, when I wouldn't even consider Nebraska a quality team if they played in the MAC...

Anyway, to sum up, the only reason you have for giving Bowling Green a title shot is that "they're in Division-1". Is that really all you've got? You don't think that strength of schedule matters in the slightest?

	24-11-2002 04:32									#475
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If they go undefeated... why not. In an 8 team play off system that most of us are advocating, they would be just one team... and if they were to win, they would deserve the championship... don't you think

At least in a playoff system... they would get the opportunity to prove they belong or not.

Strength of schedule does have some meaning... I have no problem with it be using to HELP pick the 8 teams to make the playoff. But strength of schedule is just an estimate... it creates some problems. A classic example of it could have happened this year. All the experts were saying that if OSU lost, then Washington State would be in the catbird seat for the second position in the BCS. Well... when OSU played Washington State, THEY WON... but based on the strength of schedule, Washington State would have the nod... That's crazy... two teams with identical records, but the team that lost when it played the other team would still be considered better. When only two teams go to the championship game, problems like this will occur. By allowing the 8 best teams in, then they can prove it on the field of battle... and yes, that would even include an undefeated Bowlling Green

	24-11-2002 04:40									#476
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quote: and yes, that would even include an undefeated Bowlling Green

Like an undefeated Bowling Green would be in the top-8 of the BCS. You're going to have to ignore strength of schedule entirely if you want Bowling Green in your precious playoff...

quote: At least in a playoff system... they would get the opportunity to prove they belong or not.

They could easily "prove they belong" in the regular season if they would schedule some real non-conference games. Why should we reward Bowling Green for avoiding any sort of challenge whatsoever?

	24-11-2002 04:48									#477
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You need to learn how to read better... I even put "HELP" in capital letters to make sure you didn't miss that... but you obviously did

ANY 1 - A undefeated team should get into an 8 team tournament. (as has been suggested in earlier playoff proposals... I thought you would have remembered that, but obviously not ) The rest of the teams can be picked based on record/strength of schedule.

Your silly system puts TOO much faith in strength of schedule, and ignores reality in some cases, as can be seen in my original OSU/Washington State example... and not just some made up example, one that could have happened this year.

	24-11-2002 05:00									#478
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quote: ANY 1 - A undefeated team should get into an 8 team tournament.

Fine, I give up. If you really think that this is a good idea, then more power to you. I hope you like watching Bowling Green vs. Miami or Southern Miss vs. Nebraska. I sure as hell won't be watching that garbage...

edit: One of those teams wasn't even D-1. Shows how bloated D-1 is when I can't even remember all the teams in it...

	24-11-2002 05:05									#479
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Good, you should give up. What you are forgettting is that it will be only one game. And that we will have more MEANINGFUL games then just a single championship game. History shows us that even teams in the weaker conferences don't go undefeated very often. So maybe one such team every couple of years isn't going to take all the excitement out of the playoffs...

Four first round games... Two semi finals... and then a championship game. I can't wait for something like that. More excitement than the current system, even if one of he games has Bowling Green playing Miami.

On a side note... Maybe FSU should only play ACC teams, since they just lost to another one today

	24-11-2002 05:06									#480
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quote: On a side note... Maybe FSU should only play ACC teams, since they just lost to another one today

There's one thing we can agree on. Go Wolfpack!