23-11-2002 00:12									#421
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It's actually the other way around... The Current BCS system is what makes College Football a joke. A playoff system will add to this great sport, and remove the money grubbing "taint" that has been attached by the BCS system.

	23-11-2002 00:21									#422
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A playoff isn't going to do anything to remove the "taint" of greed from college football; it will just redirect the money from the current recipients (bowl commisioners and major conferences) to the equally corrupt NCAA. Your argument doesn't wash.

	23-11-2002 00:29									#423
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Taint of greed?!!

	23-11-2002 00:29									#424
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And please explain why a bunch of bowl commissioners should have any say at all on who the NCAA Division 1-A national champion is. A group of greedy men, who are in it exclusively for the money... and who have absolutely no association what so ever to the sport with the exception of acting as middlemen for the sake of money and not the sport. Yet THEY determine who gets to play and who doesn't.

Your agrument is the one that doesn't wash. It's time to remove this cancer from College football... not endorse it.

	23-11-2002 00:39									#425
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quote: It's time to remove this cancer from College football... not endorse it.

Cancer!?! Your rhetoric is reaching absurd levels of hyperbole now...

	23-11-2002 00:44									#426
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten It wouldn't have mattered if the Huskers had gone into the Orange Bowl ranked #2. When you beat the #3 team in the country in your bowl, it looks a hell of a lot more impressive than beating whatever patsy the Pac 10 produces for the Rose Bowl. PSU being in the Big Ten is what screwed them, not some sort of pro-Osborne conspiracy. Once Nebraska beat Miami, there was no question that they should be #1.

So much for the rest of the regular season meaning anything. Am I the only one who sees a double standard being applied?

	23-11-2002 00:48									#427
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Ahhh... now you are reduced to arguing word selection vs addressing the argument.

The bowl system was put in place in the good ole days, when robber barons and monopolies ruled the day. Now, the other evils are gone, but the Bowls continue to survive. When they came under attack, they came up with the silly BCS system to insure their inflow of cash... and control over something they have no right to still be involved with. It's time to end this farce. It's time for the Colleges and the NCAA to take control of THEIR product again. They can continue to allow the Bowl Commitees to be a leach on the college football system by using their bowls for a playoff if they so desire... but it's time to take the power of selecting the teams out of the hands of people who have no right to even have a say in the matter.

Please answer why the bowl people should have a say in who is national championship... please explain to us your reasoning on this matter.

	23-11-2002 00:49									#428
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quote: So much for the rest of the regular season meaning anything. Am I the only one who sees a double standard being applied?

Pretty much. The double-standard must be in your mind, because I can't see it. Nebraska didn't win the title as a one-loss team; they went undefeated just like PSU and then beat a much more impressive opponent in the bowl. How does that lessen the importance of the regular season in any way?

	23-11-2002 00:53									#429
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This one is too easy. Your hypothetical says plain and simple, if there was a #2 playing a #3 and won in the last bowl game of the year they deserve to be the champ regardless of what the #1 team did.

This puts the whole emphasis of the season on the last game of the season and negates the impact/accomplishment of the regular season.

And as long as the regular season is diminished to the point that you ascribe to it might as well be the starting point for a seeding process to allow a playoff.

Finally I realize the BCS matches the supposed #1 and #2 but it is an interesting insight into your mindset that lays all emphasis on the final game being the end all be all (pre BCS).

Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 23-11-2002 at 00:59

	23-11-2002 00:58									#430
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quote: Please answer why the bowl people should have a say in who is national championship... please explain to us your reasoning on this matter.

I don't believe that they do have a say anymore. The BCS picks the two best teams in the country based on the opinion polls and computer polls. There is no secret cabal of bowl commisioners deciding who plays for the national title.

You have a better case in regards to the other BCS bowls, but who really cares? As long as the title game is set up properly, I could really care less about the other BCS bowls.

In a perfect world, the 3-4, 5-6, and 7-8 BCS teams would be matched up in the BCS bowls, but that isn't going to happen. For example, tradition dictates that the Big Ten and Pac 10 champs should play in the Rose Bowl, if possible. While I don't have much respect for tradition, I can see why it's important to many people and I don't get to upset about a crap Big Ten team getting a shot at a BCS bowl over a more deserving team from another conference. As long as the title game is set up right, I'm content to go along with traditional matchups, even though I don't particularly like them.

	23-11-2002 01:02									#431
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten [While I don't have much respect for tradition, I can see why it's important to many people and I don't get to upset about a crap Big Ten team getting a shot at a BCS bowl over a more deserving team from another conference. As long as the title game is set up right, I'm content to go along with traditional matchups, even though I don't particularly like them.

Actually, I think you have too much respect for tradition as you seem dead set on maintaining a system that most others would like to have changed, if only to maintain the 'purity and sanctity' of college football.

	23-11-2002 01:03									#432
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quote: This puts the whole emphasis of the season on the last game of the season and negates the impact/accomplishment of the regular season.

No it doesn't. Nebraska and PSU had equally deserving regular seasons. The best case scenario would've been for them to play each other, but they couldn't because of the idiotic Big Ten tie-in to the Rose Bowl. So, there was no way to determine which team was better on the field. Nebraska beat the better team in the bowl and since that was the only real difference between Nebraska and PSU, that is what decided the national championship. It wasn't a good way to decide the title, but it was the only one available at the time. Luckily, the BCS has fixed this now.

	23-11-2002 01:07									#433
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I don't believe that they do have a say anymore.

Who is it that says only two teams get to play... The BCS that's who. They have the most important say of all. They are the ones that have decreed that we will use just one of our bowl games to determine the national champion... and the rest of the post season will be determinded by us. We decide who gets rewarded for how they played during the year... and if we dont' like how you did on the field, and we can make more money by ignoring deserving teams, we will do so.

It's the BCS that is decreeing that only two teams get a chance.

Yeah... they don't have say anymore... get real.

	23-11-2002 01:08									#434
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quote: Actually, I think you have too much respect for tradition as you seem dead set on maintaining a system that most others would like to have changed, if only to maintain the 'purity and sanctity' of college football.

My support for the current system has little to do with a respect for tradition. It is based on a respect for what makes college football unique and superior to other sports, namely a thrilling and vitally important regular season.

	23-11-2002 01:14									#435
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quote: It's the BCS that is decreeing that only two teams get a chance. Yeah... they don't have say anymore... get real.

So now limiting the title game to two teams = determining the national champ? Please...

The only way that the BCS screws a team is if there are three quality unbeatens. We've been over ways to fix this without resorting to a playoff, but your so dead set on a playoff that you won't even consider ways to fix the current system. Why am I even debating you anymore?

	23-11-2002 01:15									#436
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Forget for a second the participants (as obviously we both have emotion ties involved) and lets simply discuss the previous statement. If #2 played and beat #3, do they deserve to become the champs? You implied this was the case regardless of what #1 did in the last game (or perhaps even in the regular season).

You implied that was the case for a hypothetical situation, I simply extended the hypothetical to show the import you lay on the final game of the season, and this shows preBCS or otherwise the importance you feel of the bowl game verses the regular season (which is the crux of your arguement to preserve the importance of the regular season games).

	23-11-2002 01:24									#437
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My point was this: since the #1 and #2 teams were both undefeated, there was no way to use the regular season to determine who was better, as I would like. They both had equally deserving regular seasons.

The next best option would be to have them play head-to-head in the title game to see who was better. Unfortunately, this couldn't happen in 1994.

So, we're left with the distasteful option of trying to determine which team is better by looking at their performances in the bowl games. The #1 team beats some podunk team, while the #2 team beats the #3 team in the nation. This obviously makes the #2 team look like the better team.

I'm not saying this was the right call. Personally, I would've split the title. But using the performances in the bowl games was the only way to decide the title that year. It certainly didn't mean that the regular season was irrelevant, just that the regular season was inconclusive that year. The BCS was created to make sure scenarios like this never happen again and it is doing a good job of it.

	23-11-2002 01:31									#438
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The only way that the BCS screws a team is if there are three quality unbeatens.

No... the BCS can only work right if there are two unbeaten quality teams. If there is only one unbeaten team, then other 1 loss quality teams are screwed because some other team with the same record gets a chance, and they don't. And heaven help us if no quality teams goes unbeaten. And this doesn't even begin to address teams that don't play in the quality conferences but are still division 1-A who will never get a shot at the championship, even if they win all their games. Talk about a regular season being irrelevent.

Granted... having an 8 team playoff system will still leave some quality teams out. But a 2 team single game insures this to be the case most of the time.

I would rather see this then see some quality unbeaten team... a team that is done everything it has been asked to do in the regular season... be given no chance at all, because their regular season has been deemed irrelevent because their strength of schedule may have been .05 easier than somebody elses

	23-11-2002 01:40									#439
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The arguement will come back again that this hasn't happened that frequently so it is a nonsequitor.

If it did happen we'll just have to amend the rules to address one off situations etc. rather than having a systematic approach that allows the regular season to count for something (i.e making the cut of a VERY distinguished top 8) as well as a decisive means to settle the problem on the field in a small post season.

	23-11-2002 01:57									#440
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Who cares?

Football is an Extracurricular activity. While it brings in a lot of money for these schools it does not set out to improve what these SCHOOLS were intended to do....educate.

I think the BCS is crock, personally. And that everything that it touches is tainted.

Heismann? Where's Crouch? Not a whole lot these winners have gone on to do much of anything.

I think the level of competition is already to high at the collegate level, instilling playoffs will only increase that. Schools should teach, not compete.

	23-11-2002 04:16									#441
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This thread is still alive???

Ming - I disagree. If Miami and OSU win out, then this year, there is no need for a playoff. I don't buy into the idea that other 1- or 2-loss teams who are 'playing better right now' deserve a chance to be in a playoff against them.* Right now, every rating system has OSU and Miami at 1 and 2 or 2 and 1. IF - a big IF - those 2 teams win out, the BCS 'works' for another year.

That said, I support a small (4 to 8 teams) playoff because I know that most years, it won't be as cut and dried as this year. Plus, one or both of Miami and OSU could lose in the next 3 weeks and then... someone is going to get left out. But when the 1 and 2 teams are as obvious as they are now, a playoff is unnecessary.


* I know this seems to contradict my earlier statements. To me, the regular season SHOULD matter. Ideally, the regular reason should produce two teams that are inarguably the #1 and #2 teams in football. But that seldom happens. Because that seldom happens, a playoff is needed, because in most years there will be 3-5 teams who can legitimately argue they should play for the title. It just so happens that this isn't one of those years. Yet.

	23-11-2002 21:36									#442
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Well... part of the equation will be settled today. The last 5 times that OSU has gone into their last Big 10 game undefeated, Michigan has denied them their perfect record. It will be interesting to watch.

	24-11-2002 01:12									#443
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Bad news for you BCS haters. Ohio State 14 - Michigan 9

All Miami has to do is beat Virginia Tech and the system works perfectly...

	24-11-2002 01:15									#444
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The difference between Ohio State and Michigan today was Clarett. Amazing vision of the entire field. Picking up 15 yards a pop like it's nothing.

This from a freshman...

	24-11-2002 01:17									#445
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Pass interference? Is OSU trying to lose a sure thing?

edit: The ending was more thrilling than it should've been, but OSU still won. They should have fun getting annhilated by a real team in the Fiesta Bowl.

	24-11-2002 01:21									#446
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Thank God.. it's over. Go Big 10!

	24-11-2002 01:24									#447
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Bad news for you BCS haters. Ohio State 14 - Michigan 9 All Miami has to do is beat Virginia Tech and the system works perfectly...

Uhhh... they kind of have to beat Syracuse as well

But as you point out, it takes LUCK for the BCS system to work. Time to remove luck from the selection process

	24-11-2002 01:25									#448
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Pass interference? Is OSU trying to lose a sure thing? edit: The ending was more thrilling than it should've been, but OSU still won. They should have fun getting annhilated by a real team in the Fiesta Bowl.

I wonder if this years Fiesta will provide as much unintentional humour as last year's Rose

	24-11-2002 01:43									#449
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quote: But as you point out, it takes LUCK for the BCS system to work.

Not really. It takes luck for the BCS to work perfectly, ie: two undefeated teams playing in the title game. In years where there is only one undefeated, the BCS still works. It just has to choose which one-loss team gets an undeserved second chance at the title.

A playoff will always give undeserving teams a shot at the title, so I don't see how the guaranteed unfairness of a playoff is better than the theoretical unfairness of the BCS.

quote: I wonder if this years Fiesta will provide as much unintentional humour as last year's Rose

I'm not sure. Nebraska of last year is better than Ohio State of this year, but there isn't a completely dominant team this year that matches Miami of last year. Ohio State will probably lose, but I don't think there is any team out there which can inflict a humiliating loss on them equal to last year's Rose Bowl. Maybe Oklahoma, but they probably blew their chance against A&M.

	24-11-2002 02:05									#450
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Not really. It takes luck for the BCS to work perfectly,

Again... oh boy, a system that needs luck to work...

quote: It just has to choose which one-loss team gets an undeserved second chance at the title.

If a team with one loss wins, it just proves that they are the better team proving that it wasn't undeserved.

You seem to think that a undefeated team that has to win a playoff to prove they are the best is unfair. What could possibly be unfair about asking a team to prove they are the best by winning.

quote: A playoff will always give undeserving teams a shot at the title, so I don't see how the guaranteed unfairness of a playoff is better than the theoretical unfairness of the BCS.

Again, their is NO unfairness in making a team win a playoff to prove they are the best. If these teams you are talking about are so undeserving, then they will lose and it won't matter. If they win, maybe because it is because they are deserving of a chance at the national championship.

Again... you keep saying that it would make the regular season irrelevent... but what could be more irrelevent than teams that play in 1 - A and go undefeated not getting a chance because of the conference they play in, or a team that losses no games or one game, and miss the championship soley based on a miniscule difference in stregth of schedule... That makes the regular FAR MORE irrelevent than having a playoff system and making the teams win to claim a championship