14-11-2002 21:01									#31
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Ah, this reminds me of the "Golden Rule of Diplomacy" (the boardgame):

"Do unto others what they would do unto you, just do it first."

Alternate version:

"Do unto others what they would do unto you, just do it better."

	14-11-2002 21:25									#32
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Gathering Storm is in the process of recruiting Arrian ...
Not exactly a good news.

Last edited by DAVOUT on 14-11-2002 at 22:27

	14-11-2002 22:40									#33
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Who, or what, is Arrian?

	14-11-2002 22:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos As such, GodKings suggestion that we play differently just to trip people up has merit, though I personally don't feel it would work as well

Why don't convince them that we are going to play different but then play the same?

And what if they think that we think that they think we are going to play different?

Er... Too much work I'm afraid

	14-11-2002 22:58									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Who, or what, is Arrian?

Arrian is a legend who is known to find the game too easy at deity level.

	15-11-2002 00:33									#36
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Sick puppy.

	15-11-2002 00:57									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Arrian is a legend who is known to find the game too easy at deity level.

I would like to know how he got the title of "legend". I'm not aware of his qualifications for this or how anyone could achieve such status in, what has until now, been a single player game.

Did the AI start whining or what?

	15-11-2002 01:28									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Arrian is a legend who is known to find the game too easy at deity level.

Anyway, this might be some kind of disadvantage if he's still used to tactics specific to that silly cheating deity AI. Multiplayer will be completely new and different.

	15-11-2002 03:35									#39
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Let say that I may overestimate Arrian who has given in the strategy forum many examples of impressive games, but dont forget that it is dangerous to underestimate an opponent.

	15-11-2002 03:52									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I do not wish to steal another's idea as my own... it was mrmitchell's idea.

Hmm...first, Spain=Spam, second, "Carthage that produces Carnage", third, this idea!

I must have found a brain!

Like that two-armed dude said, the essence of human vs human diplomacy is tricking them. We need to do a lot of trickery.

	15-11-2002 05:49									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Ninot's idea of assaulting the home area of a team which ATTACKS ANOTHER TEAM is workable... because then we can spin this to teams such as Legoland or another that they have nothing to fear from us as long as they don't attack anyone. That we felt compelled to attack Gathering Storm (Trash Trip's Ass) because their conquest of Team Lux Invicta would have made them too powerful and we couldn't accept that. What we shouldn't do is just go stomping on people without providing clear expectations afterwards on what people can do to avoid being stomped on.

One thing I'm sure of is that we will create a very believeable REASON for whatever war we undertake. Not only because we're shrewd Machiavellian sorts of people, also because we're roleplayers who wouldn't march out our forces without a good reason.

Examples of "good reasons":

The victims are being senselessly slaughtered, babies being killed in the streets, and so forth and we had a MORAL DUTY to do something right and try to stop the barbarism. We would publically state that OUR ONLY GOAL is to force the agressor to stop and cede back cities to the victim (but all the while we'd reck havoc on their cities, infrastructure, etc. Probably even keep a few in the end "as a punishment for their evil ways.")

The Gods spoke to us and told us to help the followers of our religion who were being attacked by the infidels.

We had a treaty with the victims and we ALWAYS follow through with our promises.

We need to save the world from the spread of (fascism/communism/evil religion/bad culture).

We have a royal marriage with victim civ, they are family (vassels?) and we have sworn an oath to protect them.

... I'm sure we can come up with countless others.

--Togas

	15-11-2002 06:19									#42
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Well, making reasons isnt hard if we arent making the first strike


for example

the C3DG "reasons" for attacking France, America, and America again were all crap.

the reasons we would have for attack the glory of war after they declare war on the Builders can be golden. We just need them to declare war first.

But once again, I must state im in disfavor of being the obvious First Strikers.

If we can show other civs that we wont attack first, but will attack viciously in response to any wrongful attackers, we will gain respect, trust (cuz we arent sudden, unprovoked attackers), and we will have some control over when we are in war.

Atleast in the early game, we have to set up a reputation, not a label. One civ may be SUPRISED by a large First Strike, but there will be plenty more civs later... and they wont be so suprised if we should try that later on. As soon as we make our first unreasonable declaration of war, we will lose trust for a long time.

If we can lay low untill someone else starts the wars, ultimately,we should come out ahead.

	15-11-2002 06:20									#43
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I love Machiavellianism... and plotting

what job is that exactly? Is there an evil, non social planning section to our government yet?

	15-11-2002 06:47									#44
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Regarding first strikes... are we talking about doing this to humans or AIs? If we do it to the AIs before we encounter any humans, we can just say they sneak attacked us and we're retaliating, even if we started it.

	15-11-2002 07:01									#45
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Those AI's are quite the curveball arent they?

I propose we try to rally an aliance of Us, the Builders, and one of the warmongeres, to get as much AI land as possible.... to exclude two warmongers from this.


and to do this ASAP.

	15-11-2002 07:06									#46
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Wouldn't that only leave 1 other team out?

	15-11-2002 07:14									#47
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What I proposed and GK described better than I did, and I think we all are agreeing now, is we need to think outside the box, as it were. People have a perception of us, and we need play in away they can;t predict. I like the build of defensive units, Ninot said, but also offensive units and be prepared for some human player to try and knock us backwards. They build up will hopefully keep them at bay.

Ninot, my point was not to offend you by calling you a builder, but I'm talking of perception and right now perception from C3DG is you are not a warmonger. I understand why you do what you do in C3DG, but others may not realize it.

I think we all agree we need to build forces early to protect ourselves from Human or AI aggressiveness.

	15-11-2002 07:38									#48
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Jdjdjd... i completely agree with your sentiments, and im pleased you didnt try to offend me. Honestly, i didnt think that was your intent, but I wanted to make it amazingly clear that im not a one-game guy

And while thinking out of the box is good, we gotta look at all the possibilties of whats on the other side of the box.


But i COMPLETELY agree on what you say for military units.

Build a large offensive and defensive force. prepare for the initial defense, by attacking those units first.


basically.. yeah, i agree.

But I still think we should wait to be attack, or for someone else to be attack... not for us to attack first, unless something strange happens and the world goes without a human V human war for too long.

	15-11-2002 14:17									#49
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I am on the same line of thinking that jdjdjd and Ninot.

	15-11-2002 15:02									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I am on the same line of thinking that jdjdjd and Ninot.

And I fully agree

	15-11-2002 15:05									#51
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And so do I.

	15-11-2002 18:54									#52
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Regarding first strikes... are we talking about doing this to humans or AIs? If we do it to the AIs before we encounter any humans, we can just say they sneak attacked us and we're retaliating, even if we started it.

I'm not sure it would be wise to lie about anything that another team may be able to glean the truth from anyway. I believe the foreign advisor hints at who the aggressor was in war, saying stuff like..." the carthaginians have attacked our friends the (blank), I don't know if we should trust them"

edit: or correct me if that is only for actions that result in a rep hit. We had best be sure if we want to maintain this machiavellian approach.

	15-11-2002 20:10									#53
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser machiavellian

Forgive me for being so uneducated - I'm still a simple tribesman - but what characterizes a Macchiavellian approach?

	15-11-2002 20:12									#54
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Well untill someone establishes an embassy with us, we can have the guilty pleasure of lieing about who started a war.

Of course, we cant lie about attacking a human unless we can eliminate him. But if we attack an AI before an embassy is established, we can always claimed they attacked first, and no one could be the wiser.


Now that brings me to a thought... We should establish embassies ASAP, to know exactly who is making what kinds of deals, and who is attacking who first.

	15-11-2002 23:46									#55
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What the builder, I mean Ninot said, makes sense, I can agree we don;t attack first. I nice attack force waiting for someone else to make the first move, and then attck would be pretty cool.

Of course, until we start the game, all this could be a waste of time, maybe we'll be on an island all alone. So lonely we all would be. Sniff.

	16-11-2002 00:07									#56
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Unorthodox moves by other generals has proven effective in combat, aggressiveness counts twice...

What about all of us voting for the strategies in the different situations as they occur?
- being adaptive and democratic too.

Should we perhaps discuss it (as we do now)
and make procedure-polls for every different type of situation that we might encounter?

Then execute those procedures when neccessary?

Or adapt to the situation then?

	16-11-2002 01:08									#57
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Well, I must agree with the strong consensus of this thread:

1. We should prepare a strong OFFENSIVE as well as DEFENSIVE military force. We should keep such a force strong even in peacetime, that it may be used as quickly as possible in war time.

2. That we should develop what deployment methods are needed to deploy such a strong offensive force in the most efficient and expedient manner. Road networks linking our cities (and to the potential enemy) and enough galleys (and later caravels, etc.) to transport such a force to another island (if necessary) should also be kept.

3. We should NOT, however, use this force in a first strike against a HUMAN Civ. Using it against an AI civ is perfectly acceptable, but using it against a Human Civ should be avoided unless that Human Civ either:
a. Attacks another Civ first
b. While it didn't attack another Civ first, is in the process of conquering another Civ - a conquest which would make them too powerful for us to accept.
(we can always demand that they end the war or we'll enter it on the side of the losing civ... we only enter if they continue the war - we could additionally demand that they return certain conquered cities as well, but we'd have to see...)

	16-11-2002 01:56									#58
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So this means we will be a military nation, though not necessarily an aggressive one. A large force would be logical in a competative environment such as this DG; however, if we find ourselves in a location where there are almost no enemies, we should take this opportunity and focus more on research and building, so that we can build more advanced units earlier than our opponents. That would be far better than having a large but undeveloped army which won't be used much in the beginning. We should never forget the importance of research and development, that's what I'm saying.

	16-11-2002 02:02									#59
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while we are on the subject of the military, I think it will also be important to use our military for effect.

Only humans will find this disconcerting, but I think amassing troops on their borders and calling it an exercise will be fairly effective at playing mind games with them. Naturally, we mean no harm and will withdraw to a more respectful distance and stand down to a less aggressive posture. In other words show the visible cues of an attack by letting them see our forces but not follow through.

I think feints, flanking, two- and three-pronged attacks will all need to be employed. Barring preemptive attacks early on, once an enemy has a standing army as we do (which I think we should assume they probably will), a stacked archer rush will be juvenile in comparison to an archer rush combined with a mock sea invasion where galleys pull up to there coast. They don't know the galleys are empty

	16-11-2002 03:20									#60
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quote: Originally posted by F-PRO if we find ourselves in a location where there are almost no enemies, we should take this opportunity and focus more on research and building, so that we can build more advanced units earlier than our opponents

I agree to this for offensive units, but not for defensive ones. IIRC, the military advisor only needs an embassy to tell you if an opponent's military forces are weaker or stronger than yours. If a warmongering civ meets us and sees that our military forces are weak, they'll attack within a few turns, and it may be too late for us to build an effective defense, even if we're technologically advanced. We should not take such risk.