16-11-2002 03:29									#61
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I'm looking forward to armies going heads up, and I don't mean Civ3 concept of an "army"; I'm could be talking about such a thing as two opposing stacks meeting on the field of battle... will be interesting

	16-11-2002 04:51									#62
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Call me old, call me dumb, but i disagree to alot of what has been said recently.

First....

I think we should keep our military size as secretive as we possibly can. And, NEVER along our borders, unless we admitt hostility to a nation.

If we put units on the verge of crossing a border, we will make that civ antsy... and put them in position to not trust us. We cant have that.

In my opinion, we should keep the units where they are still in good position for whatever we need them for (lets not amass them all on one mountain at the center of the empire)... but keep them where they cant be seen. What the enemy doesnt know, can hurt him worse.

As for what Arnelos said...i agree with most of it, except....

Picture this.

We go invade a civ. This makes us twice the size of our closest neighbor civ. What is he to think of our recent acquisition? It certainly doesnt benefit HIM. And this human civ might figure... if we are allowed to much time to build up the conquered teritory, he may be next.

While taking AI land can benefit us, and we should probably consider it early... we cant go overboard. The more we appear to be ambitious for land, the less reason humans would have to restrain attacking us with.

And if we are expanding, we are thinning, presenting a perfect opportunity for a sneak attack on us.

The AI should be seen JUST like the Humans as far as diplomacy goes. If we take out an AI, the humans will feel we are ambitious, and better to take us out earlier, before we take ANOTHER AI, and become unstoppable.

	16-11-2002 05:38									#63
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quote: Originally posted by astrologix And I fully agree

There is a lot of agreeance going on...

	16-11-2002 06:02									#64
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I in no way meant to insinuate that we leave our troops stationed on or borders. It may, however, serve a purpose in the future to perform these 'military exercises' briefly. I would suspect that we not start out doing it on day 1, but whether we want to or not, relations with at least a few of our neighbors are going to deteriorate eventually.

If we want something from them or simply wish to give them something to think about, this could be a tool at our disposal. I would discard it, too, though as a way of dealing with friends. But enemies may need to see patrols to know that we are patroling. I don't mean we lay everything we've got on the table nor do I suggest we keep them there.

I don't think hiding our forces is going to keep them from know our relative military strength in comparison to theirs; they can get that from their military advisor.

Anyway, I'm only suggesting options for deterance. I'd rather not have them march across our border at all than to assume our military is preoccupied, attack, and find out otherwise.

	16-11-2002 06:04									#65
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About lining troops up on the border - it may have 1 of 2 effects:

1) Making the Civ paranoid about us, causing them to rush troops to their side of the border as soon as they see one of our units nearby, and potentially deciding to attack pre-emptively.

2) Lulling them into thinking that we're just trying to screw with their minds, to the extent that we can amass a large force on their border for an invasion without them caring.

Or anywhere between those two extremes.

	16-11-2002 06:32									#66
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I still think that if the enemy thinks we have less troups, or doesnt have a clue, its better.

	16-11-2002 06:35									#67
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I'm just noting the possible consequences, not making any statements about the advisability or otherwise of doing it.

	16-11-2002 06:59									#68
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well, one thing is for sure, with the way diplomacy is handled in MP, we will be dealing with people who are potentially completely in the dark concerning which techs we are lacking our what resources we have.

All I am saying is that there is a time for subterfuge and a time for clarity. Hiding everything all the time is probably as bad as hiding nothing. I hope we keep our options open when the time comes and not fall into paradigms that lead to us not seeing alternative options available to us less black and white than war or peace, secretive and forthcoming.

Last edited by ruby_maser on 16-11-2002 at 07:35

	16-11-2002 14:44									#69
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Ninot,

I actually AGREE when it comes to being SO AGGRESSIVE with taking over AI land that we become the destabilizing factor to the balance of power ourselves. This will make us the paraiah and likely the one taken out by a coalition of other human teams.

Rather, we can do so in partnership with at least one (or preferably two) human teams. We could work it in much the same manner as the European colonial powers worked colonization in the period from 1880 through around 1908 until the Great War (anyone ever play the boardgame Pax Britanica? horribly complicated, amazingly fascinating). Basically, in order to prevent direct warfare between the competing European powers, they agreed that each of them would be entitled to take a certain amount of land from various colonizable areas and to make it their own. More importantly, they each constrained themselves to respecting each others' spheres of influence in the colonizable areas and didn't, for instance, go marching troops into an area of Africa where another European power owned the rail roads w/o working out some form of agreement.

The way this might work for us is that it's like that all of the human civs will (in some manner) attempt to lay down some lines in the sand that extend beyond their borders. For instance, that they'd be unhappy if a human civ conquered this region of an AI civ or if this Human Civ was conquered by that human civ, etc. Most of these determinations won't be publicized, but they will exist... points at which one human civ will have done too much for another human civ to peacefully accept.

If we can work with other human civs, especially the ones more likely to be friendly toward us, to not overly step on each others' toes or go conquering AI cities in each others' spheres of influence, we may yet be able to pull off making a decent empire.

Ultimately, it will be a network of mutual defensive pacts (both secret and public) between the human players which will be our largest layer of security (to the extent that we would be able to play that game well). For it is in the interest of NO HUMAN TEAM to see another human team conquered... for any conquest of any team will, by definition, make yet another opponent that much more powerful.

As such, ALL TEAMS jointly have an interest in opposing any team that would seek to conquer another team. Now, some teams will act to disregard this unstated rule of balance of power geopolitics and will likely pay the price if they do so (Glory of War comes to mind...). If Gathering Storm gets too cocky, they very well be next (or they may be first if they're THAT cocky). Because 3-4 civs ganging up on 1 civ will make for a very short war.

However, and here's the irony, it may be the case that he losing civ will be permitted to live on because none of the coalition of civs attacking it can allow for the risk that the other members of the coalition will get more of the prize than they will

It's going to be a fierce and very anarchic balance of power system... Getting ahead can be a self-defeating thing to do, as Ninot suggests. The only way around this is to get ahead WITH OTHERS, so that you minimize the degree to which the balance of power will cause more strength to be against you than at least with you (at any given moment).

	16-11-2002 15:01									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot I love Machiavellianism... and plotting what job is that exactly? Is there an evil, non social planning section to our government yet?

I love it too.



Hmm, I think machiavellian plotting style jobs was mainly
done by the aristocracy. ( in their councils and guilds )
Many semi-independant Duchys and Counties had their
homeknitted diplomacy and their feuds down in Italy,
in the Machiavellian period.

One member sometimes arose to become the gray eminence.
Often through rubbing the Regent's back and being his right hand. We got such a position here too, under Togas rulership.



If Togas was an infant Emperor, that other person would the executor of the real imperial power. As shogun, chancellor, etc.
Now, I think he is an adult with a certain amount of judgemental power.
(but it's all up to our roleplay, really)

	16-11-2002 15:10									#71
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If you take a peek at Togas' profile, you will see that he is, in reality, the ELDER of almost all of us on this team (he's my elder by just under 6 years). The only one I'm sure is older is GodKing.

My avatar, that of a relatively young William Gladstone (most portraits of Gladstone are of him in his 70's and 80's... it was near to impossible to find a sketch of him from his 40's or 50's), I suppose gives a highly deceptive connotation to my age. As was discussed in the "what demo gamers look like thread" on the single-player demo game site, many people develop an impression of posters based on their avatars... this can be extremely deceptive

Though, in some cases, it can be almost a portrait. GodKing, for instance, really does look like his avatar

Last edited by Arnelos on 16-11-2002 at 15:22

	16-11-2002 16:02									#72
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Perhaps I'm the youngest in this group?
Hmm... I've been playing som boardgames and RPGs for a few years.

Well for my roleplay:
Plutiin Plagiatum Perilius will perhaps look like my avatar one day.
He's not a commie though. (neither am I)

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 16-11-2002 at 21:29

	16-11-2002 21:27									#73
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat Perhaps I'm the youngest in this group? Hmm... I've been playing som boardgames and RPGs for a few years.

If your birthday is right in your profile, you are not the youngest. Togas only has about 3 years on you.

Anyway, avatars may be deceptive, that is true. As naval vessels go, I need to be decommissioned

edit: and mothballed

	16-11-2002 21:37									#74
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Oh, and the other the young lads were born in the eighties then?


Perhaps I should be second in command then?
(the gray eminense, and main target for backstabbers)

	17-11-2002 07:32									#75
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here's the thing about the AI....

we can use them

ALOT

They dont have the same inteligence, drive, and motives as a human would. As far as making deals with them goes, all we need is good relations and deep pockets. We would need something more with a human deal.


IF the game were to get to the point where it was JUST the 5 human civs left (am i counting right?), then all the war and diplomacy will get more complicated

if we can hold onto an AI... and in a roleplay sense, declare them our closest friend... that gives us another reason to declare war. It also gives us another civ to make war pacts with.

I think keeping atleast one AI around is to our advantage.

	17-11-2002 07:34									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot here's the thing about the AI.... we can use them ALOT They dont have the same inteligence, drive, and motives as a human would. As far as making deals with them goes, all we need is good relations and deep pockets. We would need something more with a human deal. IF the game were to get to the point where it was JUST the 5 human civs left (am i counting right?), then all the war and diplomacy will get more complicated if we can hold onto an AI... and in a roleplay sense, declare them our closest friend... that gives us another reason to declare war. It also gives us another civ to make war pacts with. I think keeping atleast one AI around is to our advantage.

A client AI civ... this is an AWESOME idea

I definately agree with this, should we have the spare funds (because that's what it's going to take) to pull this off.

	17-11-2002 23:44									#77
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I see the AI presence not lasting long, mainly because it will not be possible to give them money or techs without risking to have quickly this money transferred to a human civ. The strongest human civs will decide early that their interest is to simplify the game in eliminating the AI civs. This strategy works in ALL strategic situations. We have to think to our stance in that case.
I don’t believe to the automatic ganging up against the human civ first to conquer an AI civ : another or two will probably be doing the same, a third will not be ready to attack, and you will find yourself with only one human civ available for an alliance against a civ suddenly twice the size you have.
If this starts, the best solution is probably to try to get a share of it.

	18-11-2002 01:10									#78
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Davout, you do make a point, but i disagree on your proposed chain of events.

If Glory of War starts colonizing the AI's, we can either take the option of doing the same, or calling them out on it. If we do the same, we are reducing FUTURE options. If we call them out on it, and get a Human aliance, and possibly an AI one, we can reduce a warmongering civ early. I prefer to reduce a human civ before reducing AI civs.

AI's can be beaten with formula, Humans need thought.

	18-11-2002 02:10									#79
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I agree with Ninot. If GoW or Gathering Storm (or Lux Invicta, for that matter) are the first ones to go after an AI civ, we call them on it and attempt to line up other human civs (along with the assaulted AI civ) to knock that human civ back and perhaps even keep them down.

I agree, I'd rather be knocking back human civs than AI ones.

THAT SAID, it might be valuable for us to sign a pact with 1-2 other human civs to collectively gobble up an AI civ (example: the division of Poland, anyone?). This would guarantee that the division of the AI civ is at least acceptable to 3 of the 5 human civs (a majority) and the other two can just suffer.

	18-11-2002 02:31									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos THAT SAID, it might be valuable for us to sign a pact with 1-2 other human civs to collectively gobble up an AI civ (example: the division of Poland, anyone?). This would guarantee that the division of the AI civ is at least acceptable to 3 of the 5 human civs (a majority) and the other two can just suffer.

This is a good idea, but still i think it wise if we state an AI civ is an ally, and we keep their land sacred of enemy troups. I think it will always be a good idea if we set limits for our human opponents, as in "dont touch that AI!" After a division of one AI, we should be strong enough to enforce this.

But then again, if our move to divide an AI sets the other human teams to do the same, we would again be making it a Human only game. I dont like the idea of that. The AI could be our ultimate pawn against a warmongere.

	18-11-2002 11:59									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot I prefer to reduce a human civ before reducing AI civs.

I would prefer too, but it will be decided by the strongest, and if, due to chance or talent we were the strongest, our interest would be to kill the AI first.

Being the strongest in the early game can depend of chance such as finding a settler in a hut. BTW you know that you CANNOT get a settler when you enter a hut and at the same time a settler is being built or is not yet settled.

	18-11-2002 20:36									#82
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Thats interesting DAVOUT. I did not know that.

It would be good to keep an AI Civ around as long as possible and try to make them our friends. But, we need to be wary of what the others are doing. If all the human civs are looking to grab as big a chunk of the AI civs as soon as possible, then we need to also join in that, so we do not lose out. But, otherwise, we need to concentrate on the Human Civs and then I agree with what Ninot said about the AI alliance rolplay.

As for massing our troops on the border. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that given the members of this team and the perception others should have of us from the Demo Game, that they would not expect us to have a large offensive force. So, in playing with that we need to conceal our offensive force. We can't stop the other human players Advisors from telling if we have a stronger force than them or not, but at least we can keep them from knowing the type of force this is.

	18-11-2002 21:21									#83
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An idea...... never sell our map. Period. Without knowing what the inside of our territory looks like, it will make it much harder for them do devise tactics. It will also make them wonder whether or not we have a particular resourse or not.

Mobilty sound like it will be our major military strategy. Lots of roads and fast units. We will need lots of slaves and workers to build the infrastructure. The slaves we should convert to lookout towers (and later radar towers) as knowing what the enemy is up to is 1/2 the battle.

Don't be afraid to use intimidation to get what we want. for example, a neighborting civ has a city with 3 lux in its radius. If we march 6 knights to the border, along with a couple of pike, and then kindly ask for a good deel on one of the lux items, it might work. They will know that we can just take the city and all the lux. But remember, our actions will be remembered, so expect some retaliation later on. Intimidation is just a tool, abet one with some potentially serious consiquences.

If we do take on a human civ, we must do so ruthlessly. Pillage cities that we cannot hold, or even if we are not sure of. Send in raders to cut off supplies and lux. Be a brute. We better be able to hit them hard also. no rinky dink stuff. As once we committ, the other human civs will know where our offence is and look at our back side as well (I know that is what we are going to do.)

Ahhh..... so I am the old man here......thanks Arnelos by reminding me of that.

	18-11-2002 21:58									#84
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I think you are right about mobility. That could be one of our nice formless military tactics. On defense, at least...

On offense... When attacking the enemy outside cities,
it would be very effective with fast attack-units too.
IMO, I like slower units as well. If they are flanking the fast attack-units some tiles away, and taking hits there, we can cover a larger front, without risking to expose our strenght.
An effective (but well know) cavalry tactic, is to support the infantry who gets in battle.

Or the opposite flanking. (when the fast unit is not a maximum value attacker, but just scouting on the flanks)

Sticking units together on border would be nice to show a muscle, but it would not maintain formlessness of our attack force.
We could use it for harassment, when we do not plan a real formless attack.

But the most exciting thing, is to remain formless on in our international relations.
How can we look predictable, while being unpredictable?

	19-11-2002 05:00									#85
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Good ideas GodKing

My addition to the boiling pot of strategy:

Kind of related to a disinformation campaign, but each regime changes its ideas, i.e. the Togas despotic state sez it is a peacenik. However, GodKing despotic state sez it wishes to blow up the world in a fire of destruction.

Just examples, guys. (Or, I'm pretty sure we're all actually guys. This was brought up in the chat a few weeks back, remember?)

Please put your input in the circular file holder really tho, keep it coming

	19-11-2002 05:54									#86
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I have a few comments on things said

quote: Don't be afraid to use intimidation to get what we want. for example, a neighborting civ has a city with 3 lux in its radius. If we march 6 knights to the border, along with a couple of pike, and then kindly ask for a good deel on one of the lux items, it might work. They will know that we can just take the city and all the lux. But remember, our actions will be remembered, so expect some retaliation later on. Intimidation is just a tool, abet one with some potentially serious consiquences.

As you say, we might expect retaliation afterwards. A move like this will be good for us for MAYBE 20 turns, but we would damage relations, and risk a war. While we may hide units, its possible the enemy will hide just as many. An unnesescary war and needless bad diplomatic relations arent worth it in my eye.

I would prefer to keep friendly relations all around untill we KNOW we can crush the entire civ, not just one city.

As for what Davout and jd*3, you make points, but i see one flaw, cackle.

Davout makes an excellent point. The civ that leads in the begining will set the pace, most definately, and probably decide when the first declaration of war happens. But the first breakout civ could probably still be stopped by an aliance of other civs.

And now to a point to make about something jd*3 said. If a rival civ starts taking over an AI, the natural reaction doesnt have to be to do the same... we can attack the human instead. They will be less defended than a preparred AI.

However, yes, if all the other civs get the knee-jerk reaction of invading AI's, i agree, its the only way.

	19-11-2002 13:14									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot If a rival civ starts taking over an AI, the natural reaction doesnt have to be to do the same... we can attack the human instead. They will be less defended than a preparred AI.

This is a reason why only the most daring warmongers teams will make early wars : Glory of war ?

	20-11-2002 01:03									#88
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Glory of War recently misunderstood my humble and friendly statement to them. Now they PMed me to tell'em if I wished to join their group!? What shall I say to them? Of course I will tell them that I can't since I'm a Roleplayer.
Perhaps some other Roleplayers would like me to tell something else too?

	20-11-2002 02:17									#89
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Plague,

Keep us informed about if they make any other offers to you. My first inclination was to ask you to serve as a spy for us, but then my conscious flared up and whacked me on the head and made me think otherwise.

You have already been admitted to our inner circle and know our secret thoughts and discussions, so it would be completely unfair to us if you left to join another team. But if you can forge a good relationship with them outside this game, perhaps you could end up serving as an ambassador to them.

--Togas

	20-11-2002 02:20									#90
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Tell them you are interested but that it, if you were to leave this team to join theirs, it would seem suspicious... almost like they were deliberately trying to pull membership from other teams and gain insight into how the other teams operated, and you certainly would not want to damage their rep by blatantly switching to their side.

See if they shoot back with an alternative solution. I would like to know how far they would be willing to go to glean info about us or our strategy by having someone defect.