20-11-2002 02:33									#91
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Well, I told them I got so fascinated by the roleplay, intrigues, characters, etc.
(gave them info about imaginatory things, mostly spam)

And said that I wouldn't leave such a group.....


Here is how Mescelic responded:

quote: Fair enough I wouldn't want you to be labeled as a potential security breach for them, so you don't need to say anymore. I'll say this much, though. I'm jealous of all you Roleplayers who get to create such fascinating and imaginative stories. I'm gonna have to start convincing my teammates on the GS to roleplay more...

(edit)

Yeah... I'd like to be our ambassador at GS.
I can work on my role as a naive puppet perhaps?

Calming them down with my roleplay-related political statements... while the real-politics stays within here!

	20-11-2002 03:25									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Keep us informed about if they make any other offers to you. My first inclination was to ask you to serve as a spy for us, but then my conscious flared up and whacked me on the head and made me think otherwise.

My first inclination would make the Apolyton cuss-word checker explode.

However, a spy idea sounds okay, except they will figure it out sooner or later,

	20-11-2002 03:50									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Togas my conscious .... --Togas

Save it as much as you can. From what I have seen, I am not sure there are many others in the team ...

	20-11-2002 05:41									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Save it as much as you can. From what I have seen, I am not sure there are many others in the team ...

What was that supposed to mean? ANOTHER line against your teamates?

[RP] Hunter Davout, me not like you talk-talk! Me whack you good! [/RP]

	20-11-2002 23:32									#95
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[RP] Scavenger Ninot, me DO like you whack-whack style.
Wanna armwrestle? Me whack your hand off... [/RP]


Theoretically, how could we ever spy on other groups?
I certainly won't be active spying on anyone...
Passively, we can perhaps gather clues and info about them?

	21-11-2002 05:28									#96
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Honestly, I would hope we can set up a honor system with the other teams

keep espionage to what the game system allows.

I dont think breaking into forums is very nice.

	21-11-2002 06:22									#97
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quote: I dont think breaking into forums is very nice.

[RP] After break in, say, “Perdon, señores” and give courtly Spanish bow. That nice. [/RP]

	21-11-2002 06:49									#98
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I could not be a spy.

1) I couldn't keep a secret if my very life depended on it.
2) [rp] Spam like system, honor-like. [/rp]

Despite the fact that spies are a part of real world, no one wishes to simulate them (yet everyone probably plots to use them, ack :P )

	21-11-2002 06:51									#99
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Hah! Pff! (Sorry, that was me tripping over Gastronome again...the little twit.)

I think that for now, we only have one really potentially troublesome civilization that we have to be on the alert for from the start. That is, of course, the Celtic civilization of warmongers. I have heard wild tales from over the mountains that they see we Iberians and Visigoths as fools and cowards, and worth nothing to humanity, and ripe for conquest. They envy, so it seems, the lucrative squid trade, and they also envy our Alphabet, which is the most stunningly amazing in the world, allowing us to overcome the "Me Grog. Grog hungry, Grog want canned soup. Grog not invented can opener. Grog not even invented can" syndrome of just about everyone else. I suggest we be on the lookout, as I have heard that they can run as swift as a stallion in battle. We must be prepared to fight them, and destroy them if necessary. They can not be allowed to grow strong, but they must be contained.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari

	21-11-2002 07:04									#100
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History guy raises a point i forgot

we must keep into account that we may be a target for the warmongerers

we are just as juicy as the builders, as far as outward appearance.......


also, another thing that JUST came into mind


What about teams (maybe including us....) picking opponents based on their team members (like GS).

lets take for example, a war between Lux and GS. if GS COMPLETELY destroys Lux... there are alot of very talented Lux members looking for a new team.

This might factor into strategies and targets for any team. We should keep it in mind... players may be targets as well as their nation.

	21-11-2002 07:37									#101
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy I think that for now, we only have one really potentially troublesome civilization that we have to be on the alert for from the start. That is, of course, the Celtic civilization of warmongers. I suggest we be on the lookout, as I have heard that they can run as swift as a stallion in battle.

I, too, have heard of these souped-up leprechauns, but my clairvoyance suggests we will not see many for I have heard it shall cost at least one pot of gold at the end of a rainbow to acquire the services of just one of their legions.

but I foresee many things and half of them are wrong, ahh well

-el_ruby_maser
clairvoyant, half-witted cactus-farmer extraordinaire

	21-11-2002 08:12									#102
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I agree with Ninot. This could be, and I think will be, a problem. Our civilization must keep from this, above all things. It is, I fear, folly. There is no other civilization than the warmongers who must be destroyed, therefore we should not seek war with these chaps.

Also, the warmongers are, as I stress, looking for war, and that is why they have chosen the Celts. They will be going after civilizations which appear to be threatening to their power first, big, wealthy, juicy civilizations. Civilizations like Carthage...or Spain. I fear we may be fighting Gallic Swordsmen in future times.

	21-11-2002 08:24									#103
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy I agree with Ninot. This could be, and I think will be, a problem. Our civilization must keep from this, above all things. It is, I fear, folly. There is no other civilization than the warmongers who must be destroyed, therefore we should not seek war with these chaps. Also, the warmongers are, as I stress, looking for war, and that is why they have chosen the Celts. They will be going after civilizations which appear to be threatening to their power first, big, wealthy, juicy civilizations. Civilizations like Carthage...or Spain. I fear we may be fighting Gallic Swordsmen in future times.

WE must not start a war now. We should let them start the first war, and be prepared to crush them when we do.

And, to make a point, I think our civ should shy away from COMPLETELY overconquering a civ, and leave them a city, to keep them in a game as a show of goodwill.

	21-11-2002 10:24									#104
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Concerning whether we are a target of the warmongering Celts:

TYPICAL! The Celts have long been a nuisance to we, the glorious Visigoths. Our nomadic ancestors long fought (though also inter-bred) with those vile Celts... According to our oral traditions, they've been a nuisance since the dawn of time! It should only be expected that they have ill will toward us, for afterall we are the future - the enlightened ones who will one day rule the world... they, they are the past, ones who will forever be stuck speaking as imbeciles incapable of using our more civilized alphabet.

We should rid the world of these barbarians at the soonest opportunity and rule them ourselves, that we may civilize them. Otherwise, they will wallow in their own filth for millennia to come...

Indeed, we should watch the barbarian Celts very closely.

As for other civilizations, the Carthaginians seem friendly enough and we hope to have a very productive relationship with them.

The exotic and likely far-off Ottomans must be watched carefully... they do not share many of our values and I have a suspicion that their beliefs will be greatly divergent from our own in the long-run... something that should be of great import to us. However, they may indeed make for a sound strategic ally against the dangerous "Gathering Storm", as Governor Ninot suggests.

In the end, however, only time will tell. We know so little about our world and the civilizations that may be nearest or farthest from us.

-------------------

As for preparing for war, I hear from our friends in the city of Carthage that they have the capability to use their famed masons' skills to build defensive barriers for their towns called "city walls". Perhaps we could learn this skill ourselves and place such city walls around each of our newly formed towns - that would make them significantly harder to attack for the fearsome Celts.

	21-11-2002 20:09									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos As for preparing for war, I hear from our friends in the city of Carthage that they have the capability to use their famed masons' skills to build defensive barriers for their towns called "city walls". Perhaps we could learn this skill ourselves and place such city walls around each of our newly formed towns - that would make them significantly harder to attack for the fearsome Celts.

I believe we should look to building cities on hills early on. Though I hope we trade techs with the Carthaginians early, I think that (barring a starting position that precludes us doing so efficiently) we should make us of the free defensive bonus of this terrain and minimize walls to cities that could not be so well-positioned.

	21-11-2002 21:35									#106
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quote: I believe we should look to building cities on hills early on.

The only problem is that hills are not conducive to making and feeding Spanish children. [RL] I’ve seen this in my little valley in Los Piraneos [/RL]

	22-11-2002 02:38									#107
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quote: Originally posted by pikesfan The only problem is that hills are not conducive to making and feeding Spanish children. [RL] I’ve seen this in my little valley in Los Piraneos [/RL]

food inside the center city square tile has been reconfigured to give 2 food units no matter what terrain you are on. Therefore, the terrain will not interfere with growth... provided that there is sufficient arable land in the surrounding tiles.

I would not suggest we settle in a location with all mountains or all hills but a stray hill in a river and grassland area would be beneficial.

	22-11-2002 08:38									#108
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As ruby_maser points out, building a city on a hill tile has the same food and resources as if you build it on a grassland or plains tile (or even a desert or tundra tile).

The problem isn't that you have less food, it's that you deny yourself the full PRODUCTIVE CAPACITY of the hills tile! You get only 1 shield rather than the 2-4 you'd get if you later improved the tile. That lost production may be more valuable than the lost food.

That said, the defensive bonus for building on hill tiles is quite impressive and should not be underestimated.

	22-11-2002 19:08									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos The problem isn't that you have less food, it's that you deny yourself the full PRODUCTIVE CAPACITY of the hills tile! You get only 1 shield rather than the 2-4 you'd get if you later improved the tile.

yeah, the lost production does kinda suck... and I love them shields

But, barring it being the only hill in the city's radius, this is more of a middle to late game issue. So, from the looks of things right now, we've got about six or eight years to consider how to get those 2-3 shields back

	22-11-2002 20:05									#110
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Ok. I have seen this before. What is Togas famious for in the cd3g? All those tech trades that kept us in the game. Arnelos & adamada.... helped togas. jdjdjd, radical, judicial member, generally opposed to war. thud, dia prez who is now running for SMC me, gk, the CP for two terms, the guy who shoved provinces down the demo games throat, the guy who first said "persia declaired war on us... cool, they don't have iron yet, lets take them out, and grab the pyramids while we are at it"....

with all of this "known" talent in our mist, we will be a target.

quote: We are all known for being kinda sneaky if ya know what I mean. (sorry for leaving several people out, just felt there were enough examples...) I have looked in and seen references to how to deal with us.... they expect us to be sneaky. If we are to go this route, we must do so in totally new ways.... be honest to a couple of teams. Builders sound OK. But what about the war mongers. As long as they realize they stand no chance against us, and as long as they are dependant on us for something, even if that is just to watch their back.... Trips team probably will not start any trouble until they get their UU. Until then, how can we use that, and at the same time make is so we are not their target. Remember, they are watching us and expecting us to stab them in the back... Look. What I am proposing is for us to do some radical things. Build 20 warriors, upgrade them ASAP, and then march on someone. Or even an archer rush may be appropriate. They will not be expecting that from us. We must be radical and unpredictable. That is to our benifit. Humans determin when to make war and when to make peace. We can prune off 1-3 cities, then ask for peace without having to wait the 6 turns. We know the viewing radii of units and cities. we can march out of sight through another civs territory and attack from the rear. Or pirate ships carry no insignia... if we have lots of water, who would suspect us of destroying so much... Just a couple of thoughts here at 11:45 pm when I have to go to work at 5am..... GK

I'm still reading these threads and catching up to present day.

E_T

	23-11-2002 05:26									#111
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A hilly terrain is indeed very good for building cities.
When there are many hills, this one-tile production loss
does not matter much as the others will improve.
Defensively, it's a valuable area (esp. with roads)

When it comes to attacking another's city on hilly terrain.
Please keep in mind that they can utilize the road/railroad system,
while we can only move half-speed. A sudden strike seems to be impossible early on.

So heavy defensive forces forming a frontline(or surrounding),
works better than low-defense "fast-attackers" when attacking in such an area. Just use them as a support unit here.
The "city-sackers" will have to move in from behind the frontline and take the city when possiblell. Flanking works bad since fast speed cannot be utilized.

	23-11-2002 05:55									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Plague, Keep us informed about if they make any other offers to you. My first inclination was to ask you to serve as a spy for us, but then my conscious flared up and whacked me on the head and made me think otherwise. --Togas

Well my conscience doesn't do that. Although I have not joined another team (although Trip thinks I AM in his team and has sent me an update at one point - I must tell him to take me off his list), I have sources within the other teams who can give me information.

For example the GS has chosen Egypt as their first pick civ and apparently Iroquois are next if they lose that choice to someone else (there is another team starting that sounds like they might choose Egypt).

I think I have my role - international spy extraordinaire.

	23-11-2002 06:37									#113
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MrWIA,

As I said to Plague, this is too obvious - on top of the fact that I think it somewhat violates the "fun" and "honor code" spirit of the internal 'poly demogame. We should avoid using spies and certainly crucify any team that does use them.

Just my opinion, though...

	23-11-2002 17:00									#114
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Hi, I somewhat agree with Arnelos here.
Why does Trip think mrwhereitsat is on his team?
Is Trip just being stupid or is he up to no good?

Well, I certainly do not want to spy on other teams.
It's more fun giving them the wrong ideas,
and finally exploiting what they might leak.

Oh, planting rumors and putting them up against eachother
would be a bad thing to do, but if it's not too obvious... (???)

	23-11-2002 17:43									#115
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About concealing or bordering our troops:
I think we should conceal them only if we are pretty sure that we outnumber our neighbours, so that we can be declared war upon, instead of declaring. In such a case, we would have the surprise element, as we might induce our oponent to think that if we don´t border ´em, we don´t have ´em.
But , if we are weak on millitary, it might be good to border troops, and even maybe make some sporadic attacks against AI, so that they think ´´Hmmm, if they are attacking and putting troops on their borders, they probably have a strong military.
And once again I say that the only group that might have the slightest vlue on what we are doing,(and even thus only before going to the battlefield at their side) would be the LEgoland builders. Also, I agree with what someone back there said (Ninot, I think) in that we need to have mobility in both means of roads and fast units , and watch towers.

	23-11-2002 18:30									#116
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That mobility aspect depends upon wheter we
are going through rough terrain to meet our foe,
or if we are going to stay defensive using our own infrastructure.

1.
On the defense, fast units are essential to the counterattacks.

2.
In a plain area outside borders, the fast units will come in handy if they are defended well.

3.
In rough terrain we need a large formation of high defense value, with good attack values to strike with...
The point on e.g. a hilly region is not assaulting, but occupying terrain to gather reinforcements and "city-sackers".

	23-11-2002 21:36									#117
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat Why does Trip think mrwhereitsat is on his team? Is Trip just being stupid or is he up to no good?

Id go with Stupid.

He has an absent-mindedness to him. If someone doesnt tell him straight out, he wont get it. He is also VERY sure of himself, when it isnt easy to prove him wrong. Of course, this could serve as his downfall.


As for the border troops, i still stand by my previous argument. Hide them in almost ALL cases.

	23-11-2002 22:14									#118
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I agree with Ninot and Arnelos where the Celts are concerned, but...we must not build on hills. If we build our cities on hills, we'll be in the Ancient Age when everyone's in the Industrial Age, and the Middle Age when everyone else is in the Modern Age. Building on hills is folly!

	23-11-2002 22:18									#119
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Good grief! I'm a King!

	24-11-2002 03:39									#120
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Congrats to History Guy

I think that someone brought up the Maginot Line discussion somewhere else (maybe on another forum ) but while it has a trickle of relavence here I'll bring it up.

In this game, the Maginot Line(forts stockpiled with defensive on all borders) will be much more useful than in a regular SP game. This is because with Apolyton's best vs. Apolyton's best, the borders won't change that much, so the Maginot Line wouldn't quickly become outdated as the border leaps beyond it.
You might ask: "Won't the others just go around?" Easy answer: Unlike France, line our entire border with forts, and mega-defenders stacked on them. Entire border is meant with all civs, even if they are peaceful to us, even Legoland. (How we'll let them know that we are not planning to annihlate them or we don't trust them would be difficult. Maybe we could skip Line-ing any Legoland border with a no-RoP-with-[teamname] deal. Oh, what human diplo allows that the AI could never imagine...

If we Road/Irrigate/Mine/Everything our entire territory (or most of it,) instead of disbanding those workers we can get them to work building forts. Especially possible after RRs are done.