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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:23
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Slippery little bastards ran through our legs... |
If I recall there were several ex ABs in their ranks back then which probably explains how they managed a couple of tries? Those were the days when representing seven or eight countries was still acceptable. Didn’t one of the Bichops end up with Japan after already playing Samoa and NZ? 
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Well done England. |
That Romanian side was almost the same team that Scotland could not put away the week before they did put away the Boks. Am I arguing the Boks are now on a par with Romania? Would I? For a start Romania tackle according to the laws of the game.
Serious stuff however – the butchers bill from last weekend is worse than I thought. Neil Back is out for several weeks with a broken cheekbone and Lewis Moody had to have a shoulder operation this week and is out for a month or so. That’s two top class flankers who can’t join my club for the next phase or European action although we have a wealth of talent in the back line, it is now likely to be any three from Kronfeld, Corry, Balding and Johnson (the other Johnson – Martin’s younger brother). Josh has been on fire recently – even in the loss last week.
I think Dawson is a doubt for Saints as well – and with Saints visiting us this Saturday it means the Boks have denied English club rugby three of it’s England players for a top clash. I hope they are happy. But then probably not as the red carded player picked up a three week ban to run from the start of next Super-12 season. 
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I took this to mean that you were making the argument that England were the best team of the tournament. I should have realised that all but the games against NZ and Oz have been erased from your english memory. |
I can see how it came over. But it was only ever intended as a glib comment to draw an exchange and it worked on that basis.
Strangely the only games I can remember are those two you referenced – funny that?
Oh and the final but lets gloss over that right?
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Now that wasn't so hard, was it? |
Harder than you will ever know.
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Yes, well played England, you lost with grace and style. |
Until recently that was all we could do with style.
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Agreed. I reckon England choked a bit in the game against Oz though. I'm sure that won't happen when you come down south next year... |
You are absolutely right. The positive thing I took out of it is that normally after choking that would have been it. Previous England sides would have collapsed after going 15 points down. This one dug back in. I have to say it made me immensely proud of the boys. A lot of it is down to the character of the captain of course (Finbar groans loudly).
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I'm sure all your rugby fans are as balanced. |
Not at all. Some support Gloucester after all.
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...but know it all views and holier than thou attitudes are all part of the fun! |
And most fans can cope with it either way across the North-South line. I think the problem is that a lot of the Aussies in particular who get to twickers are not Rugby fans but more blinkered ‘Australia’ fans – the nation not the specific sport. The English tend to be okay with having the mick taken out of them but what they struggle with is the attitude you can get from some Aussies which seems to be that they can mercilessly rip into all things Pom and expect no offence to be taken but by god do not criticise Aus mate because it is perfect okay and you are just being rude.
It s a strange duality in some of them. Am I being unfair Finbar?
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Pity. It shouldn't be. |
It’s not my fault guvnor.
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Yes, but I'll allow it anyway. |
Gracious as ever.
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No, my dance smilie doubles as a contempt smilie. |
I’m devastated.
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I seem to have missed whatever those understated and rational replies were actually referring to. |
They ran an earlier evaluate England’s autumn piece that kind of got hijacked by whiners. We all know the three games mean very little in regards to next year and that England still have bad flaws but from some of the comments you would think Woodward had murdered their grandparents or something.
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I seemed to have missed whatever Campo was blathering about, too. He hasn't been quoted here since the week before the England game when he predicted an England win. |
In essence he was just pointing out the obvious in his Telegraph article. The three games showed areas that need work, do not get carried away etc. but he put it in that inimitable Campo style that puts backs up straight away. Routine Campo stuff.
That’s a nice sketch and would be accurate had Mrs Havak been taken to Aus. But she wasn’t. And yes I am still paying for that.
I do think Tamerlin and LDiCesare should get themselves to OZ. You have to visit the place, and you could call in on Finbar in Sydney. He is very grateful these threads were not very active before I went there.
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Though he thinks England is perhaps currently the best team in the world the Six Nations game against England is largely considered as THE big test before the RWC |
Twickenham in mid February? I would say if you beat us there then you are THE favourites for RWC despite what the ABs might think. After all the stats since RWC 99 show that the ABs actually do very badly in Australia don’t they Caligastia? When was the last win there again?
Having said that I don’t expect you to win the game.
Nick Mallett is coaching in France so I think we can take what he says with a pinch of salt. And the French tight five is very formidable. But so is the English five. February will answer the question for us.
I absolutely love it – Tamerlin has once again gone for the southern jugular on the non competition for the ball at the set pieces. Allez mon ami! 
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Andydog
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London
Jan 2001
time: 05:23
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I've had bugger all work to do so I've spent the morning catching up on the discussion. And it seems a great deal of the discussion was spent berating the saffee performance.
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Originally posted by Havak
That the Boks have massive problems and are being systematically coached to tackle illegally and fall off their feet. |
Now while I agree that the saffees have always been a dirty team, I don't know if I'll go so far as to agree that their coach is teaching them to tackle illegally. Don't get me wrong, the late tackle by Jannes Labuschagne was plain stupid. He deserved the red card, no doubt about it, and I see that he has just been suspended for 23 days by a Six Nations disciplinary committee.
The Boks did play badly on Saturday and showed that SA is missing a lot of experience. (Robbie fleck an exception as he's bumming Bobby Skinstad ) There was nobody on the paddock to tell the youngsters off for loosing their cool. If you swing a punch and your team turns around and runs back without saying anything, you aren't going to worry too much about it are you? But if someone like Mark Andrews tells you "you stupid idiot, don't do that again!" then you'll certainly stop.
The problem SA faces at the moment is that the English clubs are buying SA's mature players. Mark Andrews is over here, Andre Venter recently, the list is endless. In an effort to stop this, SA rugby categorically stated that no player playing overseas will play for SA. Unfortunately that didn't work, thus SA have been loosing the experience for good. SA rugby could solve this problem by allowing players playing overseas to be eligible for tours. Players would all of a sudden be a poor investment as they may spend a lot of time on country call up.
With any luck more mature heads would lead to a cleaner harder game.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:23
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Originally posted by Havak
Serious stuff however – the butchers bill from last weekend is worse than I thought. Neil Back is out for several weeks with a broken cheekbone and Lewis Moody had to have a shoulder operation this week and is out for a month or so. |
I can understand the problem with the cheekbone, but how did Moody's shoulder come about? I didn't see what caused it.
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A lot of it is down to the character of the captain of course (Finbar groans loudly). |
*blinks awake* Hm? Pardon?
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It s a strange duality in some of them. Am I being unfair Finbar? |
It's hard to generalise. I'd've thought that an Australian rugby fan going all the way to Twickenham would be a rugby fan. Unless, of course, they're an Earl's Court (or wherever the gathering place is for them these days) p*sshead, in which case I would disown them regardless of where they were and what they were doing. The thing is, as I've said before, there are f*ckwit supporters in all countries.
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I do think Tamerlin and LDiCesare should get themselves to OZ. You have to visit the place, and you could call in on Finbar in Sydney. He is very grateful these threads were not very active before I went there. |
Tamerlin and LDiCesares would be most welcome here, I'm sure they know that. As would you too have been welcome if I'd realised you were the armchair socialist that you are. In fact, you should get your backside down here for the RWC. And bring Mrs Havak. In further fact, I've just come home from a splendid dinner out with MOBIUS and MS MOBIUS.
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I absolutely love it – Tamerlin has once again gone for the southern jugular on the non competition for the ball at the set pieces. Allez mon ami! |
*blinks awake again* Hm? What? Pardon?
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Andydog
Aye, they were doing all that, I just have difficulty in accepting that the saffees are being taught to do all this 'systematically' as you put it. I can't for the life of me imagine the saffee coach saying to the youngsters "Right lads, we ain't gonna win this one, therefore here's how you take em out!"
I think it is more likely that the coach told them in the changing rooms before the game not to be afraid to get physical, or something along those lines. The point I was trying to make is the lack of experience lead to the youngsters taking this too literally, and look what happened. |
The thing is, Andydog, the Boks did exactly the same thing against us in their Tri Nations match here this year. Thug tactics. They were lucky to escape with a single red card. Their full back deliberately tackled Chris Latham while he was in the air, slammed him headfirst into the ground, and escaped with a yellow. The tactics aren't evident in their S12 matches - Butch James' illegal tackling aside - so it's not as if they're brought up to play that way. In the return Tri Nations match at Ellis Park, there was - by comparison - less thuggery and more rugby.
I have to agree with Havak - I think it's a deliberate, bloodyminded policy. I don't think, either, that it's a case of "we're not going to win this one, so let's do some damage". I believe it's their definition of a team trademark - we're rough and tough - only it's hamfisted in the extreme. And both self-defeating and stupid, because they've already been penalised into oblivion for doing it, but they continue to do it. And if they continue to do it - and, given their coach's expressed attitude that he has no problem with their approach to the England game, it seems they will continue to do it - they will continue to be penalised into oblivion.
And as for an experienced player telling the younger players to cool down - the Bok skipper, an experienced player, is one of the worst offenders.
I think it's a tragedy. They have some potentially very fine young players who are being sacrificed for a trademark.
Last edited by finbar on 28-11-2002 at 18:31
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:23
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quote:
how did Moody's shoulder come about? I didn't see what caused it. |
Apart from the fact it happened very early on, and off the ball (surprise?) I’m not entirely sure myself.
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The thing is, as I've said before, there are f*ckwit supporters in all countries. |
That’s certainly true. I’m sure I spotted some of my favourite kind though. When you were so far ahead early in the second half and they panned the crowd there were patches of (free) yellow scarf wearing chaps with their backs to the game entusiastically seeking out the nearest England fans presumably telling them how great Australians are. It mad eme nostalgic for Melbourne and Sydney (we didn’t see any Aussie fans in Brisbane until the bar well after the game).
Guys rather like your cricket loving fellow NSW resident perhaps who in that other thread simply cannot grasp Cricket is not a big sport here. Though for your benefit Finbar I will admit you are doing a job on the boys again.
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In fact, you should get your backside down here for the RWC. And bring Mrs Havak |
At some point I’ll be back, and it may not even coincide with sport. Unfortunately RWC seems unlikely at this stage. And we aren’t that keen on Lions 05 in NZ either (weather concerns). Maybe the next England pacific tour. The problem is the missus will not join a rugger tour. I have carefully cultivated an image of them being unsuitable for a lady and trying to reverse that would cause more trouble than I want.
On which note I have to say I am looking forward to next weekend. Staying at a friends near Perpignan from Friday then heading to Bezier for the game on the Sunday (and yes Tamerlin and LdiCesare I do know it is a long way away from there)
Oh and yes – best wishes to the ex-pat and partner.
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and, given their coach's expressed attitude that he has no problem with their approach to the England game, it seems they will continue to do it - they will continue to be penalised into oblivion. |
Finbar hit it here Andydog. As Straeuli could see no wrong it what they were doing it worried me that it is a coaching problem.
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Not at all, I was just pointing at the fact that one of the finest coach in the world shared the same point of view as mine on this subject. |
There is our answer Gentlemen – Tamerlin should coach the Boks.
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Unfortunately, such a trip is largely behond my means. |
Getting there is the expensive part. After that the exchange rates make it a very reasonable place to vacation in. Cheaper than going to Blackpool in fact.
So as for these misunderstood stereotypes Straeuli was talking about maybe he should read this.
tale of a skipper who needs banning?
Sky's rugby club is on tonight so it looks like I will get chance to see this violent assault that took out several players including their own Fly Half!
Last edited by Havak on 29-11-2002 at 15:01
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Andydog
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London
Jan 2001
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
I have to agree with Havak - I think it's a deliberate, bloodyminded policy. I don't think, either, that it's a case of "we're not going to win this one, so let's do some damage". I believe it's their definition of a team trademark - we're rough and tough - only it's hamfisted in the extreme. And both self-defeating and stupid, because they've already been penalised into oblivion for doing it, but they continue to do it. And if they continue to do it - and, given their coach's expressed attitude that he has no problem with their approach to the England game, it seems they will continue to do it - they will continue to be penalised into oblivion. |
Guys, think about what you're saying here. Nobody in their right mind is stupid enough to adopt such tactics, for precisely those reasons. Least of all a Springbok captain. In fact, this is a quote from Straeuli himself:
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What do you hope to achieve against England?
RS: A win. That has to be our motivation and we believe we have players good enough to do so. There has to be massive improvement in our forward effort and I want to see more composure from our backs. The players are young and they have very little test experience. You only become experienced by playing.
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So I don't know where you heard that he has 'no problem with their approach to the England game', perhaps you took this out of context? Anyway, no captain is going to stand up and admit to teaching 'thuggery tactics' after his team has just being penalised to a 50 point deficit.
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And as for an experienced player telling the younger players to cool down - the Bok skipper, an experienced player, is one of the worst offenders.
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Rudolf Straeuli? He's not that experienced, certainly not on the international scene. He doesn't have the maturity of Andre Venter.
Sorry chaps but you haven't convinced me. I think that the boks have a tendency to get very frustrated when they are loosing to a superior side, and there is nobody there to cool the team down. I agree that they are a rough and tough team, but not to the extreme that you're both suggesting.
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27-11-2002 17:20
) does not a competition make. England's results prior to the games against NZ and Australia were nothing to be proud of.
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