25-11-2002 11:44									#211
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon It throws a ball-bearing into the works as it were and gives the NH sides a serious, and reasonably well-founded hope of actually winning. It can only be a good thing to have a more open field.

That's an immensely noble attitude that, indeed, I, myself, shall maintain right up until one of the pr*cks looks like winning it.

	25-11-2002 12:04									#212
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quote: Originally posted by finbar That's an immensely noble attitude that, indeed, I, myself, shall maintain right up until one of the pr*cks looks like winning it.

I certainly didn't have such an attitude before the England-AB match. Something akin to finding a silvery-coloured substance inside a cloudlike object I suspect.
My newly-discovered sense of altruism might be tested just a bit though should the AB's look like winning.

	25-11-2002 12:50									#213
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If this AB side that went to Europe won all it's games, I'd be running down to my local betting store betting an Ashes win for England

	25-11-2002 14:16									#214
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quote: *Will Havak now stop demanding starts?

No.

Frankly I’m still in shock having won both my bets.

And my weekend was dampened a little by Tigers inept display yesterday.

But on the whole I guess I am happy.

Okay rather than respond to the copious posts let me get my views out the way first. Despite the scoreline I was rather surprised to see the Azuri break the game line several times only to fumble the chance. I suspect Eddie will be happy to get the boys home and get the lads through the treatment tables.

What did we learn at Twickenham Saturday? That the English forwards and backs can talk if they want to. That the Boks have massive problems and are being systematically coached to tackle illegally and fall off their feet. That we can put away 14 men.

Lets face it the game ended as a spectacle when their second row got himself red carded. Forget what you may have seen Straeuli quoted as saying – if that lad was pulling out the tackle I would never want to face him committed to one. It was rank stupidity – O’Brien had warned them for shoulder charges and repeated infringements and had issued a final “card next time” warning to the Bok skipper (who himself has trouble staying on his feet). The lad then arrived on Wilko about ten seconds late and used only his shoulder. I might have given him yellow but as Michael Lynagh said it warranted a red card for stupidity alone.

I remain very concerned about how the Boks tackle – there is excessive use of the shoulder and little use of the arms across the team. Sure James is the worst of a bad bunch but as it stands these guys are not playing rugby – it’s wrestling moves they use (the spear?). Their fullback Greef looked quite promising but he had a nasty habit of tackling the neck not the torso – and leaked a penalty try for it.

One man tackling illegally can be accidental. An entire team doing it means it has been coached surely?

There was a lot of off the ball contact. Wilko was lost to one such incident that was so far off the ball no camera caught it. I always did understand why Finbar gets annoyed at Larkham being mugged – but now I feel it much more forcefully. It was therefore deliciously ironic that Healey actually played quite well when he came on, and doubly ironic that four Englishmen kicked at the posts and all were getting it from everywhere on the field.

Is there a more volatile centre pairing in the world than James-Fleck. Fleck has talent but his fists fly all the time. He was very lucky to stay on the field in the second half.

The positives for them? Their remaining lock (AJ Venter?) and the Openside had manful games on the back foot. The fullback was fairly solid. Hard to pick anything else out as positive.

The positives for us? We didn’t choke. A thoroughly professional job was done on a team that lost a man. There were signs that the backs and forwards might inter-link better in future. I suspect we have to be favourites for the RWC pool now, and NZ will slaughter the Boks on this showing.

It tells us very little about our chances beyond that – I still think we lack what it takes to turn over NZ or Aus down south.

But for now I’m happy – and our next game? France at Twickers apparently.

I’ll catch up with the thread properly later.

	25-11-2002 14:55									#215
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quote: That's one up against your duckhouse wall, Havak.

They are good. We are slightly better. At Twickenham where the next game is anyway.

quote: it was only 14 minutes into the match

23 minutes and a third and ‘final’ warning had been given to Krige as it happens.

quote: for their coach to imply - as he did, after the match - that England played dirty rugby is outrageous

It was rather off of him given our discipline actually held up superbly under massive provocation as far as I could see? If he is blind to their obvious faults how will he correct them in time for RWC? I can see plenty of red coming their way.

I think O’Brien was reluctant to send any more men off. Strictly speaking several should have walked including the inimitable James. Brain Moore (ex Pommie hooker ‘Pitbull’) summarising for the BBC said someone needs to take James and sort him out. When his co-commentator asked is he meant coach him how to tackle he said no – he meant SORT him out.

quote: Suddenly, the late hit happened, the Springboks were down a man, and the game turned around.

I would like to mention here that Cohen had broken their defence and taken us ahead before the red card. Against the run of play sure but they were opened up like a tatty old newspaper by the big man.

quote: my money is on the All Blacks.

Sadly so is mine, for almost the same reasons.

quote: But, in the meantime, Allez France!

Spiritually French now eh? I may need to keep a low profile should the Blues beat us in the new year.

quote: It can only be a good thing to have a more open field.

France have placed an excellent marker too. I have to admit, if any team is to blow away the ABs at any point I suspect France can be the ones. When they get it right it can be truly awesome rugby they play. Then hopefully we can play them in the same frame of mind they surrendered to Australia in last time (sorry Tamerlin!)

quote: That's an immensely noble attitude that, indeed, I, myself, shall maintain right up until one of the pr*cks looks like winning it.

	25-11-2002 15:25									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Havak And my weekend was dampened a little by Tigers inept display yesterday.

With everything else going on, I'd forgotten to check on my Tractor Boys! We rolled Leeds!

quote: Okay rather than respond to the copious posts let me get my views out the way first. Despite the scoreline I was rather surprised to see the Azuri break the game line several times only to fumble the chance. I suspect Eddie will be happy to get the boys home and get the lads through the treatment tables.

You obviously saw more of the game than I did. Not a frame of the match was shown here. The report in this morning's paper said the Wallabies did pretty well under all the circumstances. There was praise for Wendell's work around the ground. I'll never know for myself because I'll never see it!

quote: That the Boks have massive problems and are being systematically coached to tackle illegally and fall off their feet.

I couldn't agree more with this and everything else about the Springboks that followed in the post.

quote: Their fullback Greef looked quite promising but he had a nasty habit of tackling the neck not the torso – and leaked a penalty try for it.

He's the guy who deliberately took out Chris Latham while he was high in the air catching the ball. Could've crippled him. That's what triggered the famous incident where Steve Larkham was dancing around, fists flailing, wondering how actually to throw a punch. The tragedy is that Greef can play very good rugby but he's undermining it with thuggery.

quote: It was therefore deliciously ironic that Healey actually played quite well when he came on

Until he got cross-field kick happy.

quote: Is there a more volatile centre pairing in the world than James-Fleck. Fleck has talent but his fists fly all the time. He was very lucky to stay on the field in the second half.

Both talented, both undermining it with thuggery. Fleck proved against us in the Ellis Park Tri Nations match that he can really play. AJ Venter is a very good player, less prone to thuggery.

	25-11-2002 15:31									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It was rather off of him given our discipline actually held up superbly under massive provocation as far as I could see? If he is blind to their obvious faults how will he correct them in time for RWC? I can see plenty of red coming their way.

He's blind to their faults. They will be penalised into oblivion. Unless someone higher up the chain calls a halt.

quote: I would like to mention here that Cohen had broken their defence and taken us ahead before the red card.

He had. And, as you say, it was against the run of play. The point was that the Springboks were doing very well playing rugby. Sure, it mightn't have lasted - well, I'm sure it wouldn't have - but there was a vast difference between the quality of their first 10 minutes and the rest of their match.

quote: Spiritually French now eh? I may need to keep a low profile should the Blues beat us in the new year.

To paraphrase Maurice Chevalier - "Ev'reeee leet'l breeeeze seeeeems to wheeesper Tamerlin ... ".

	25-11-2002 16:11									#218
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quote: With everything else going on, I'd forgotten to check on my Tractor Boys! We rolled Leeds!

It’s all over bar the shouting now. Your boys will top the league. We’ll finish third and beat them in the final.

quote: You obviously saw more of the game than I did.

I saw it all. It followed England on Sky. Sailor did actually play reasonably well. Is he learning do you think or was it a fluke?

quote: The tragedy is that Greef can play very good rugby but he's undermining it with thuggery.

The citing official has called him in for tomorrow as it happens, Finbar. For the tackle that gave the Penalty try.

quote: Until he got cross-field kick happy.

Rather over use that at the moment don’t they?

quote: Both talented, both undermining it with thuggery

Fleck is suicidal. He swung at Hill right in front of Paddy then chased Ben Kay who politely told him to move in the other direction. Rush of blood stuff I suspect – can’t control his temper.

Whats the name of their openside Saturday – compared to Krige he was fair and fairly clean – plus his work rate was excellent.

Krige and Johnson had a little tussle on the floor by the way – resulting in Krige elbowing Martin in the face. Nice.

quote: Unless someone higher up the chain calls a halt.

Can you see it happening?

quote: but there was a vast difference between the quality of their first 10 minutes and the rest of their match.

You can’t play test match rugger with 14 men. Their shape naturally went. The point is they were bound to lose anyway because if that challenge had not seen red any number of others could have. As you say they penalised themselves out of the game.

quote: To paraphrase Maurice Chevalier - "Ev'reeee leet'l breeeeze seeeeems to wheeesper Tamerlin ... ".

I’m having a waking nightmare – help!!!!

	25-11-2002 16:57									#219
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Be sick a few days and look at what all those talkative people manage to say!
I want to point out one thing about yellow and red card handling. There have been many red and yellow cards in the last matches, which were often given for outright brutality (most high tackles were on purpose, a few punches...). It looks like discipline is still far from us and SA in particular is going to suffer a lot beause of it.
Still I am surprised Tamerlin didn't point out the fact that Clerc (from Toulouse) scored two tries against the canucks, one of which was a particularly beautiful performance. I believe the French backs need to play more together in order to attack correctly.

	25-11-2002 17:34									#220
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Still I am surprised Tamerlin didn't point out the fact that Clerc (from Toulouse) scored two tries against the canucks, one of which was a particularly beautiful performance.

I forgot to mention it though I'am very pleased of course. What it also interesting is his overall performance, good defence, very good perception of the game, daring. A great potential...

quote: I believe the French backs need to play more together in order to attack correctly.

I think so, they need to play together more often and be coached accordingly.

	25-11-2002 17:38									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It’s all over bar the shouting now. Your boys will top the league. We’ll finish third and beat them in the final.

quote: I saw it all. It followed England on Sky. Sailor did actually play reasonably well. Is he learning do you think or was it a fluke?

What the %$#@& are you doing getting to see it when it wasn't televised here! The story is that FoxSports couldn't get the rights, but if you watched it on Sky ... You saw Wendell, you tell me. Did he look like he knew what he was doing? The newspaper this morning said he read the game better and put himself in position properly. I'd imagine it must have had something to do with the oppo - he must've had more time or something.

quote: Rather over use that at the moment don’t they?

It's very, um, L*****.

quote: Whats the name of their openside Saturday – compared to Krige he was fair and fairly clean – plus his work rate was excellent.

I had to look it up. Wannunberg (or similar). He did well. Krige's another one who can actually play some fine rugby but brings it all undone with unnecessary violence and myriad penalties. It happened in their first Tri-Nations match here, but, in the return match, like most of the others, concentrated more on rugby. Which isn't to say they were clean, but certainly a lot better than in the first match - and last Saturday night.

I notice on the Boks Planet Rugby page that officialdom is standing behind the coach. He - and the team - are copping plenty from the supporters, though.

quote: Can you see it happening?

See above.

quote: I’m having a waking nightmare – help!!!!

Cop this then. To paraphrase Maurice once more: "Thaaaaank 'evvens ... for little Tamerlin ... ".

	25-11-2002 17:39									#222
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quote: Originally posted by finbar To paraphrase Maurice Chevalier - "Ev'reeee leet'l breeeeze seeeeems to wheeesper Tamerlin ... ".

Do you sing the song rolling your r's like he did?

	25-11-2002 17:45									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Havak They are good. We are slightly better. At Twickenham where the next game is anyway.

The stars are right, the masterplan comes to fruition : WE ARE CHALLENGERS !

We will win !

	25-11-2002 18:38									#224
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quote: What the %$#@& are you doing getting to see it when it wasn't televised here!

It wasn’t live but there were extended highlights.

quote: The newspaper this morning said he read the game better and put himself in position properly. I'd imagine it must have had something to do with the oppo - he must've had more time or something.

The Sky commentator said much the same on both counts. Still, it is all progress for him.

quote: It's very, um, L*****.

Now then!

quote: Krige's another one who can actually play some fine rugby but brings it all undone with unnecessary violence and myriad penalties

But you will note the upset Bok fan on Planet Rugby blamed Jonno for a neck pin. Somehow he missed the punch thrown by Krige that got him held down in the first place AND the elbow he finished up with. Must have excellent glasses – green and gold tint included.

quote: He - and the team - are copping plenty from the supporters, though.

The more level headed fans seem to have read it correctly. I am sure you will have noted the usual cries of victimisation from the referee and apparently several think James shoulders charges are ‘aggressive defence’ rather than illegal. I beg to differ

O’ Brien was fairly cautious IMO. And James cannot tackle legally. He makes no effort to use his arms. If you can’t see that in five seconds you don’t know rugby at all?

I think you are right Finbar. As long as the Bok establishment keeps the blinkers on they are in trouble. I look to the tri-nations with interest.

quote: We will win !

Tamerlin my friend you always get it right.

We will most certainly win.

	25-11-2002 19:54									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Journeyman Bloody Foxtel indeed. When will they learn not to waste our time with baseball, grid iron and other crazy sports that hold no value whatsoever here in Australia? No offence Caligastia

None taken, I'm a kiwi, so feel free to bash american sports anytime you feel like it.

quote: Originally posted by finbar In closing, having now seen the ABs twice on this tour - I missed the French game - and allowing for the class that will be added to the squad with the addition of the resting players, the ABs have to be very clear favourites for the WRC.

As has been usual with this tour, I didn't get to see the game. Even on Sky Sports News they only showed highlights of all the other games. I don't get it, I would have thought for sure they would show highlights of NZ v Wales ahead of Ireland v Argentina highlights.

Fortunately the did show a fair amount of England v SA highlights. I saw some fantastic pushover tries, and that late tackle on Wilko was a shocker! Totally deserving of the red card.

	25-11-2002 19:57									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Havak We will most certainly win.

Fumble! Double post...

	25-11-2002 19:57									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Havak We will most certainly win.

Tsss! Tsss! Tsss!

	25-11-2002 20:25									#228
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quote: I don't get it, I would have thought for sure they would show highlights of NZ v Wales ahead of Ireland v Argentina highlights.

Maybe it is becuase the BBC had the rights to that game. Sometimes they don't co-operate that fully for highlights to be shown on the other?

quote: I saw some fantastic pushover tries

Classic England stuff.

quote: and that late tackle on Wilko was a shocker

Straeuli claimed his man was "pulling out" of it.


You likied my interpretation of "WE" then Tamerlin?

	25-11-2002 21:17									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Classic England stuff.

I noticed Neil Back got one of them, I'm sure you were happy to see that. Did he get a start in yesterdays game or was he one of the many injury subs?

quote: Straeuli claimed his man was "pulling out" of it.

Ridiculous. I saw a few bits of an interview with Woodward as well, and he seemed pretty upset with the Boks dangerous play. Hopefully the injured England players will all recover quickly.

	25-11-2002 21:25									#230
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Backy started both this game and the one against Finbar's mob. I've seen him do the same pushover thing time and time again for his club.

Yeah Woodward was not happy but then he seldom is post match.

Most of the knocks were very short term stuff but Robinson may be out for a week (perforated eardrum) and more worringly they can't find what is causing the pain in Wilkinson's shoulder - he may be out for some time.

	25-11-2002 21:39									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Backy started both this game and the one against Finbar's mob. I've seen him do the same pushover thing time and time again for his club.

Great stuff. Cohen's try was also brilliant.

quote: Most of the knocks were very short term stuff but Robinson may be out for a week (perforated eardrum) and more worringly they can't find what is causing the pain in Wilkinson's shoulder - he may be out for some time.

That sucks. How long does he have to recover before the club games start up again?

	26-11-2002 03:45									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Maybe it is becuase the BBC had the rights to that game. Sometimes they don't co-operate that fully for highlights to be shown on the other?

FoxSports - which is basically Sky - showed replays of both the England and All Blacks games here. But - have I mentioned this before at all? - nothing of the Wallabies match!

	26-11-2002 03:58									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You likied my interpretation of "WE" then Tamerlin?

No, WE does not mean YOU !

	26-11-2002 05:02									#234
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I can't believe the England vs Springbok highlights, you'd think they'd have cleaned up their act somewhat getting this close Well, at least they'll be entertaining.

	26-11-2002 05:24									#235
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caught a news clip last night about the Wallabies win over Italy. Apparently defeating the mighty Italians makes up for losing to both the English and the Irish.

Brings to mind that old expression - "If at first you don't succeed, redefine success until you do."

I hope the NZ press isn't putting such a spin on the AB's tour. Although the match against England was, by all accounts, one of the best imaginable, with no shame in losing so narrowly, France was a different matter.
AB's played poorly and were lucky to escape with a draw. Finally a reasonably easy win over Wales.

It could've been worse of course but this probably wasn't what the NZRU had in mind as the expected outcome after a successfull tour.

	26-11-2002 10:41									#236
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon caught a news clip last night about the Wallabies win over Italy. Apparently defeating the mighty Italians makes up for losing to both the English and the Irish. Brings to mind that old expression - "If at first you don't succeed, redefine success until you do."

Well, indeed.

quote: I hope the NZ press isn't putting such a spin on the AB's tour. Although the match against England was, by all accounts, one of the best imaginable, with no shame in losing so narrowly, France was a different matter. AB's played poorly and were lucky to escape with a draw. Finally a reasonably easy win over Wales.

I think, given the make-up of the squad, they did very well. Their backline work against both England and Wales was sensational - and it wasn't just the old heads (Umaga, et al) who were doing the damage. The younger brigade were fitting in very well. Their pack was pushed around by the Welsh but they were, after all, missing a couple of handy locks.

	26-11-2002 10:44									#237
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quote: Originally posted by NeoStar Well, at least they'll be entertaining.

Those few left on the field.

	26-11-2002 14:30									#238
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quote: Great stuff. Cohen's try was also brilliant

And Greenwoods second. The ‘show and go’ almost qualified as a decoy runner as it drew the tackler onto a non ball carrier. Almost.

quote: That sucks. How long does he have to recover before the club games start up again?

This weekend. And Newcastle’s second line Fly half is long term injured too. Poor old Rob Andrew.

quote: But - have I mentioned this before at all? - nothing of the Wallabies match

You may have mentioned it in passing perhaps. It is ludicrous really – they definitely had rights to the highlights as I watched them on Sky (have I mentioned that?).

quote: No, WE does not mean YOU !

I understand. WE means US then?

	26-11-2002 14:49									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Havak And Greenwoods second. The ‘show and go’ almost qualified as a decoy runner as it drew the tackler onto a non ball carrier. Almost.

Which reminds me! I did see a couple of decoy-running attempts. Hamfisted, but at least they're giving it a burl.

quote: as I watched them on Sky (have I mentioned that?).

quote: I understand. WE means US then?

Will you two please sort out your subject and object pronouns!

	26-11-2002 14:51									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Poor old Rob Andrew.

*spit*