23-11-2002 17:09									#181
	Final - I hope! - Betting Update! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Andydog 277.5-80 = 197.5-30 = 167.5
Bearcat 100-50 = 50
Caligastia 68.5-60 = 8.5
finbar 73.5-40 = 33.5
Havak 90.8-30 = 60.8
Journeyman 100-40 = 60
LDiCesares 141.8
Mickeyj 143.5
NeoStar 114
ravagon 94-30 = 64
redbull 80
Tamerlin 62.3-25 = 37.3

Bets placed to date are as follows:

1. England -v- Springboks (Boks 17 1/2 points start)

Andydog 40 - England
Havak 20 - England
Journeyman 20 - England
Tamerlin 20 - England

Bearcat 20 - Springboks
Caligastia 20 - Springboks
finbar 10 - Springboks
ravagon 10 - Springboks

2. Wallabies -v- Italy (Italy 20 1/2 points start)

Bearcats 20 - Wallabies
Caligastia 20 - Wallabies
finbar 15 - Wallabies
Journeyman 20 - Wallabies

Andydog 30 - Italy
ravagon 10 - Italy

3. Wales -v- All Blacks (Wales 22 1/2 points start)

Andydog 40 - All Blacks
Caligastia 20 - All Blacks
Havak 10 - All Blacks
ravagon 10 - All Blacks

Bearcat 10 - Wales
finbar 15 - Wales
Tamerlin 5 - Wales

Last edited by finbar on 24-11-2002 at 04:41

	23-11-2002 17:12									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog 30 gold on Italy dammit. I can hear Finbar sniggering away, he knows full well of my strange inability to back the Wallabies!

You're not without a chance betting on Italy. The Wallabies have been playing like busted arseh*les for the whole tour and now we've lost Larkham for this match to add to the injury debacle.

	23-11-2002 23:55									#183
	Re: Final - I hope! - Betting Update! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by finbar Bets placed to date are as follows: 1. England -v- Springboks (Boks 17 1/2 points start) Andydog 40 - England Havak 20 - England Journeyman 20 - England Bearcat 20 - Springboks Caligastia 20 - Springboks finbar 10 - Springboks ravagon 10 - Springboks 3. Wales -v- All Blacks (Wales 22 1/2 points start) Andydog 40 - All Blacks Caligastia 20 - All Blacks Havak 10 - All Blacks ravagon 10 - All Blacks Bearcat 10 - Wales finbar 15 - Wales

You have forgotten the bets I posted yesterday, 20 on England and 5 on wales...

	24-11-2002 04:41									#184
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Dear oh dear, Andydog and ravagon, you were brave to try but what were you all thinking? According to the match report they were scrappy but still rolled them 34-3. Maybe Italy shouldn't have made those 9 changes before the game

The Wallabies are by no means WC favourites (we are ) but they're still kicking. Oh well, now I don't feel as bad they didn't show it.

quote: You have forgotten the bets I posted yesterday, 20 on England and 5 on wales...

That after I'd conceded that finbar must have some brains about him to run a tipping comp.

	24-11-2002 04:43									#185
	Re: Re: Final - I hope! - Betting Update! Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin You have forgotten the bets I posted yesterday, 20 on England and 5 on wales...

Sorry, Tamerlin, I've now recorded the bets after the event. My only excuse is that I was so angry about the Italy-Wallabies match not being televised here that I briefly lost my mind!

	24-11-2002 05:04									#186
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*dances around his winning tickets*

	24-11-2002 05:20									#187
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The results:

England 53*
South Africa 3

*Will Havak now stop demanding starts?

Italy 3
Australia 34

Wales 17
New Zealand 43*

*So much for the margin being too narrow!

France 35
Canada 3

Ireland 16
Argentina 7

The respective winning bets: (including the stake)

1. England -v- South Africa (17 1/2 points start for SA)
Andydog 64
Havak 32
Journeyman 32
Tamerlin 32

2. Italy -v- Australia (20 1/2 points start for Italy)
Bearcat 30.5
Caligastia 31 (*rounded up from 30.6)
finbar 23
Journeyman 30.5

3. Wales -v- New Zealand (22 1/2 points start for Wales)
Andydog 55
Caligastia 27.5
Havak 13.75
ravagon 13.75

Our updated Bank A/c:

Andydog 167.5+119 = 286.5
Bearcat 50+30.5 = 80.5
Caligastia 8.5+58.5 = 67
finbar 33.5+23 = 56.5
Havak 60.8+45.75 = 106.55
Journeyman 60+62.5 = 122.5
LDiCesares 141.8
Mickeyj 143.5
NeoStar 114
ravagon 64+13.75 = 77.75
redbull 80
Tamerlin 37.3+32 = 69.3

	24-11-2002 05:24									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Bearcat *dances around his winning tickets*

*dances around his winning ticket*

Your bets on Wales and the Springboks let you down.

	24-11-2002 05:30									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Journeyman That after I'd conceded that finbar must have some brains about him to run a tipping comp.

Bloody Foxtel were still listing the telecast of the Italy-Wallabies match on their Programme Guide channel while Channel 11 - the channel supposedly showing the match - was showing some damn international sports round-up. You don't know what this sort of torture can do to a chap's psyche!

	24-11-2002 07:52									#190
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Bloody Foxtel were still listing the telecast of the Italy-Wallabies match on their Programme Guide channel while Channel 11 - the channel supposedly showing the match - was showing some damn international sports round-up. You don't know what this sort of torture can do to a chap's psyche!

Bloody Foxtel indeed. When will they learn not to waste our time with baseball, grid iron and other crazy sports that hold no value whatsoever here in Australia? No offence Caligastia

quote: now we've lost Larkham for this match to add to the injury debacle.

That poor bugger is always getting injured, tell me who you think would get the honour (curse) of replacing him should it occur in the WC? I can't really decide, of course with England the choice is somewhat clearer.

	24-11-2002 08:59									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Journeyman That poor bugger is always getting injured, tell me who you think would get the honour (curse) of replacing him should it occur in the WC? I can't really decide, of course with England the choice is somewhat clearer.

Elton Flatley is the back-up on this tour. He's a handy player but nowhere near Larkham's class - OTOH, who is? This is one of the crying shames of Matt Rogers' injury that saw him play one game on the tour. He was going to be tried - amongst other positions - at 5/8. He has the speed, brain and skills to be a class 5/8.

	24-11-2002 09:11									#192
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I just watched a replay of the Wales -v- All Blacks match. The Welsh did more than acquit themselves well. Their scrum pushed the AB pack around for most of the match resulting in a deserved penalty try in the second half. They had the ball in good attacking position any number of times only to be let by down the Wallaby Syndrome - coughing up the ball. I'm not sure what Iestyn Harris was still doing on the bench well into the second half because when he came on the Welsh backline actually looked dangerous.

The ABs took a 5 point lead into the last 10 minutes and simply blew the Welsh away with 3 converted tries. The AB backline - with Umaga and Howlett in dazzling form - were always threatening but the Welsh defence managed to contain them. Until the last 10 minutes.

BTW, for those who backed the Welsh, the first AB try in the second half involved a massively forward pass that neither the ref nor the linesman - both in perfect position - missed. Ergo, the margin should only have been 19 points. You were dudded. I'd suggest you email the IRB and demand compensation for the Civ Gold you lost.

In closing, having now seen the ABs twice on this tour - I missed the French game - and allowing for the class that will be added to the squad with the addition of the resting players, the ABs have to be very clear favourites for the WRC.

	24-11-2002 09:11									#193
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Elton Flatley is the back-up on this tour. He's a handy player but nowhere near Larkham's class - OTOH, who is?

You won't be winning any WC with Flatley, while he



While I was typing Alec Stewart was given out. White, now him. Can't our team even reach the 5th day?

	24-11-2002 10:00									#194
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quote: Originally posted by finbar *dances around his winning ticket* Your bets on Wales and the Springboks let you down.

*mutters something unkind about England and New Zealand*

quote: BTW, for those who backed the Welsh, the first AB try in the second half involved a massively forward pass that neither the ref nor the linesman - both in perfect position - missed. Ergo, the margin should only have been 19 points. You were dudded. I'd suggest you email the IRB and demand compensation for the Civ Gold you lost.

Perhaps I will

	24-11-2002 11:50									#195
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I've now read several reports of the England -v- Springboks match (of which I'm hoping to see a replay tonight). Sounds like the Springboks went the knuckle in their typical fashion, with one of their locks red-carded early in the match. Their coach, for some reason, seems always to want to avoid responsibilty for his team's thuggishness. A couple more red cards might wake him up to himself.

	24-11-2002 15:07									#196
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I missed the French game...

The players of both teams were so fair play the game could have been called a " little game between friends". Even Mr Mc Hugh has been rather good.

The game was nevertheless entertaining thanks to the canadians who did not used wicked tactics to hinder the french game as some teams deemed weaker like Italia.

The game was engaged and the french forwards proved once again they are some of the best in the world, if not the best ones. More worrying is the behavior of the backs. Though Merceron showed he is directing the game better than François Gelez as a Half-Fly the backs have generally handled the ball before having held the defence in place thus easying the work of the said defence. This flaw was present against the AB, and certainly did cost us the victory, and need to be fixed before the RWC.

	24-11-2002 16:01									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin the french forwards proved once again they are some of the best in the world, if not the best ones.

That's one up against your duckhouse wall, Havak. (Don't ask me to explain that colloquialism, Tamerlin, it's just about impossible!)

quote: the backs have generally handled the ball before having held the defence in place thus easying the work of the said defence.

Not sure what you mean, Tamerlin. Could you have another go?

	24-11-2002 16:37									#198
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Mmmm. Just watched the replay of the England -v- Springboks match. Most peculiar refereeing performance by Paddy O'Brien. The send-off of the Springbock lock for a late tackle on Wilkinson was odd. The hit was certainly late and deliberate - and incredibly stupid - but really no different to many I've seen that have received a yellow card at worst. Certainly, Paddy O'Brien was heard to issue a warning to the captains prior to the incident, so I can only assume that - and the fact that Wilkinson was in the air when he was hit late - is what brought out the red. (I suppose, thinking about it, it's not dissimilar to the red card shown to the Springbok for a high tackle on Matt Rogers in our second Tri Nations match against them. The ref, in that case, had warned both captains a number of times. In last night's case, though, it was only 14 minutes into the match and only one warning had been issued)

Anyway, my real point is that Paddy pinged that incident but seemed to be blind to a number of deliberate Springbok swinging arms, high tackles and other highly unsavory methods. They really can play some nasty rugby, unfortunately, and for their coach to imply - as he did, after the match - that England played dirty rugby is outrageous.

I know I've banged on about this before, but the Springboks can play very good rugby when their mind is on the job. They had England really stretched in the opening 10 minutes. Suddenly, the late hit happened, the Springboks were down a man, and the game turned around.

The Springboks can't blame the missing man for the scoreline. England played some terrific rugby - I might have been dreaming, but I actually thought I saw some coordination between England backs and forwards, and, on a couple of occasions, the centres actually played like centres rather than flankers - and the Springboks made the England job easier by giving away their usual ridiculous number of penalties with dreadful discipline.

I really can't see any future for the Springboks if they're just going to run onto the field and get penalised into oblivion.

	24-11-2002 19:27									#199
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Not sure what you mean, Tamerlin. Could you have another go?

I knew I would have some problems with this sentence.

What I mean by "holding in place" is when a back (especially a centre) is going to the contact of the defence and handle the ball to the following player when he is about to be tackled or at the moment he is tackled thus preventing the tackling player to defend against the new holder of the ball. The french backs, in my own opinion, have handled the ball too quickly thus allowing the defenders to slide towards the border of the field and prevent the holder of the ball to outflank the defence. A flaw I had already spotted during the AB game.

	24-11-2002 19:35									#200
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quote: Originally posted by finbar That's one up against your duckhouse wall, Havak.

Do you mean this is Havak's turn to answer (shoot at) this one or that there is a trophy ready to be nailed to the wall ?

In the second case, we will have to wait until the Six Nations Tournament and the England-France game, don't sell the bear's skin before you killed it.

	25-11-2002 03:39									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I knew I would have some problems with this sentence. What I mean by "holding in place" is when a back (especially a centre) is going to the contact of the defence and handle the ball to the following player when he is about to be tackled or at the moment he is tackled thus preventing the tackling player to defend against the new holder of the ball. The french backs, in my own opinion, have handled the ball too quickly thus allowing the defenders to slide towards the border of the field and prevent the holder of the ball to outflank the defence. A flaw I had already spotted during the AB game.

I think I know what you mean. Drawing a defender? Or engaging a defender? Without it you've got a line of backs confronted by a line of defenders. The backs either have to try to crash through, switch the play back in another direction, or - if the defence is sliding - bring in another back running at an acute angle across the direction of the slide which wrong-foots the defence, something the ABs do incredibly well.

	25-11-2002 04:11									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Do you mean this is Havak's turn to answer (shoot at) this one or that there is a trophy ready to be nailed to the wall ?

No, it's nothing as literal as that. It's an old Australian expression with very obscure origins. No one, as far as I know, has ever been able to identify where it came from. It's also hard to explain but I'll do my best. Basically, I was pointing out to Havak - in a sort of gleeful way - that you'd delivered him a mighty blow (via English rugby) with your comment.

quote: don't sell the bear's skin before you killed it.

Or, as we say, don't count your chickens before they're hatched.

	25-11-2002 04:38									#203
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quote: Originally posted by finbar No, it's nothing as literal as that. It's an old Australian expression with very obscure origins. No one, as far as I know, has ever been able to identify where it came from.

Very obscure indeed, my "Petit Ophrys" doesn't know it.

quote: I was pointing out to Havak - in a sort of gleeful way - that you'd delivered him a mighty blow (via English rugby) with your comment.

I would have sworn I heard a Hyena's laugh after your sentence.

Wrong assertion from my part but good conclusion anyway : we will have to wait until England-France to know who has the best forwards.

quote: Or, as we say, don't count your chickens before they're hatched.

quote: Drawing a defender? Or engaging a defender?

I think the best way to describe what I have said is, in our case, "engaging a defender".

	25-11-2002 05:32									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Journeyman Dear oh dear, Andydog and ravagon, you were brave to try but what were you all thinking?

Don't know about Andy but I was thinking about my pot of 10 against a pot of 75 - possibly leading to a win of the kind finbar had one or two threads ago.

At any rate I can take my mind off botching that one with the knowledge that I botched the England-boks game by much more ... Oh ...

And my pot of gold lightens yet again...

Are the Englanders actually favourites yet? Heaven help us if thats the case.

	25-11-2002 06:07									#205
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Are the Englanders actually favourites yet? Heaven help us if thats the case.

For the RWC? Despite their good performances over the past fortnight, they still have a few things to prove, IMHO. Can they do it away from Twickenham? Twickers gives them a mighty head-start. And can they do it away from Twickers against full-strength teams? And the answers to those questions are 11 months away.

As I said, based on what happened in the NH over the past couple of weeks, and given full-strength teams, my money is on the All Blacks.

	25-11-2002 06:10									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Very obscure indeed, my "Petit Ophrys" doesn't know it.

It's hard to find reference to it in Dictionaries of Australian Colloquialisms, too.

	25-11-2002 06:44									#207
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quote: Originally posted by finbar And the answers to those questions are 11 months away.

No the answer is just a few weeks ago when the Six Nations starts. Allez France...

quote: ]As I said, based on what happened in the NH over the past couple of weeks, and given full-strength teams, my money is on the All Blacks.

Better hear that than being deaf...

	25-11-2002 06:55									#208
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The RWC will be very interesting... however, Australia have a tendancy to put NZ over at home (as we've seen in the Bledisloe Cup for the last few years).

My money is on NZ, but we still have about a year until the contest, and anything can happen in 11 months

	25-11-2002 06:57									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin No the answer is just a few weeks ago when the Six Nations starts. Allez France...

You're quite right, that will be England's first big test. But, in terms of the SH nations, it will be 11 months.

But, in the meantime, Allez France!

	25-11-2002 09:40									#210
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quote: Originally posted by redbull My money is on NZ, but we still have about a year until the contest, and anything can happen in 11 months

All said and done though, Englands performance over the last few weeks in particular - beating all 3 of the major SH teams - is a good thing, even this far out from the WC.
It throws a ball-bearing into the works as it were and gives the NH sides a serious, and reasonably well-founded hope of actually winning. It can only be a good thing to have a more open field.