21-11-2002 18:09									#31
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Just a question, standing the absence of the "wall softeners" (diplo/spies) has someone already made some stats regarding the casualties of crusaders against walled musketeers?
This will be ...

Go and teach the stupid AI who is "da boss" even cameless....

	21-11-2002 18:22									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Absolutely no reason to ever study Espionage. A dead-end tech we're not allowed to use. Case closed.

	21-11-2002 18:53									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Messer Niccolς Just a question, standing the absence of the "wall softeners" (diplo/spies) has someone already made some stats regarding the casualties of crusaders against walled musketeers?

Vet crusaders vs. non-vet, walled musketeers, I'd expect to lose 3 crusaders per musketeer (it would actually be somewhat worse than this, because some defenders would be promoted to veterans).
Against vet walled musketeers, losses would be more like 5.5 vet crusaders per musketeer.
Vet walled musketeers on a river would require about 8 vet crusaders per musketeer.

The obvious conclusion: arrive before the AIs build walls, and/or before they discover gunpowder!

	21-11-2002 20:08									#34
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I like the plan.

More power to us if we can make it work... but in a way, I'm hoping that the AI does force us to be a bit unconventional in our strategies. I've never really been an early conquest guy, except on small maps. This one is large - so sheer logistical issues may slow us down, and allow the AI to position itself defensively.

It'll be a good learning exercise for me, in any event.

	21-11-2002 22:36									#35
	Remove this text

quote: Without bribe capacity, there's not much point in using a diplomat to explore when a horseman is cheaper and more able to defend itself - so, wander away!

Dip has no support cost, which can be important in the early game with shields at a premium. Also use Dips instead of Horsies as the camel-free Wonder-fodder 'coz they can be stored up without shield support.

Well, I'm a sucker for succession games, so sign me up already!

	22-11-2002 00:12									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I've never really been an early conquest guy, except on small maps. This one is large - so sheer logistical issues may slow us down, and allow the AI to position itself defensively. It'll be a good learning exercise for me, in any event.

The logistical element in the game is one of the reasons I signed up. Being used to shipping freight from one end of the world to the other via ferry ports and ship chains - I reckoned it would be fun trying it with boat loads of heavies instead

Dave's assessment of the game is hard to dispute ... but I must put in a plug for Magellan - especially if we are in a race against the AI obtaining walls and musketeers everywhere.

----------------------------

SG(2)

	22-11-2002 00:25									#37
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Straybow Dip has no support cost, which can be important in the early game with shields at a premium. Also use Dips instead of Horsies as the camel-free Wonder-fodder 'coz they can be stored up without shield support.

Two good points to consider in a normal game... in this game, though, storing diplomats would be kind of be against the spirit of the rules

IIRC...

quote: Diplomats are allowed exclusively for the purpose of establishing embassies

It's a bit easier to justify exploring with dips as 'looking for foreign civs to embassize' than it is to justify using them as wonder building fodder

quote: Well, I'm a sucker for succession games, so sign me up already!

Consider yourself signed up!


@SG(2) Yes, I think the logistics will be much trickier on a large map. It's not easy to ship an invasion fleet cross-world in triremes or even caravels... it would take a lot of caravels, even!

	22-11-2002 00:38									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Anticipating my play tonight with random thoughts...

All I see in the intro posts is "large custom map." IIRC it was also noted that we're on a "large island." Clearly, we need to get off of it.

I agree that Magellan and Sun Tsu would be very beneficial.

I see that we're going for HG now. I seldom spend the shields on tempWoWs like HG and lighthouse, but it may prove worthwhile -- especially if the island is very isolated. And without camels, we may need Colossus to keep us in the early tech race...

Looks like early exploration and hut-hunting will be very important. I plan to move in that direction while prepping for the Crusader Blitzkreig to begin...

-Jrabbit waiting for work to end so he can play.

	22-11-2002 00:40									#39
	Got spare money?

Oh, and welcome, Straybow!

	22-11-2002 03:07									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit I see that we're going for HG now. I seldom spend the shields on tempWoWs like HG

We have HG ... not going for it

I don't think temporary is quite the right word...one or two of us don't see any prospect of Railroad

---------------------------------

SG(2)

	22-11-2002 03:54									#41
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Yeah, noticed that later, (2). I'm happy that we're happy!

I'll be impressed if we can blitz an entire large map before walls and muskets are implanted. And someone will build the GW. Still, should be able to wipe out a nearby civ or three, though.

Hey, STOYM, are dead civs going to be rebirthed in this setup?

	22-11-2002 08:41									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I can't remember if I turned off that feature or not. If not, it will certainly add to the challenge!

	22-11-2002 11:10									#43
	Inflate your Upload Space

OK, done. Stopped just short of collecting Writing. If SG[1] can tear himself away from work, his 20 turns should be fun stuff. I just set the stage.

Highlights -- Met the Indians, traded for techs, later went to war.
Found some land, founded some cities.

More details after I sleep. here's the save (zipped).

Attachment: notrade_525bc.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	22-11-2002 16:44									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Can you squeeze a little aussie in this interesting game?

If so count me in.

	22-11-2002 19:24									#45
	-Jrabbit's Turns Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

My daughter had homework, so I couldn't even get online until about 10. I wasn't in the best of shape to do this, and didn't really do much planning or evaluation before diving in. But there were no major disasters...

1000 - 975BC -- Neutral Indian ambassador knocks on the door of undefended Trade No More, demanding Map Making. We decline and sign peace treaty, then trade for Bronze Making and Masonry. They also have Mysticism, but won't part with it.

950 -- Notice we're building Settlers in every city but are nearly out of land on the home island. Adjust a bit.

925 -- Our ppl now number 400,000. Americans start Pyramids.

900 -- We discover the Wheel. Choices = Seafaring, Polytheism, Writing. After tanking for awhile, we elect to go for the Elephants.

875 -- Babylonians decide to race for Pyramids, move capitol to Ur.

850 -- American capital moves to NYC

825 -- AntiGATT finishes temple. Being surrounded by water, we start on Lighthouse.

800 -- New trireme departs Dow Plunges, in search of land and huts.

775 -- Indian capitol moves to Madras. Reinforcements arrive at Trade No More.

750 -- Village of NAFTAno is founded.

725 -- Thucydides new history book declares our civ the Most Powerful on the planet. Indians are Puny. Polytheism is ours! Writing is next...

700 -- Population hits 0.5MM. Hut south of Trade No More yields Mathematics. New island spotted. Looks like this may be an archipelago, boys.

675 -- Alien civs continue to shift their capitals. Indians join the hunt for Pyramids.

650 -- Aztecs begin Great Library.

625 -- Trireme spots somthing to SE. Land ho!

600 -- Hardy settlers found village of Freight Fright.

575 -- Gandhi demands another meeting, appears hostile, demands Polytheism. We think not, but offer to trade techs (hoping to snag Mysticism). They decline, we demand tribute, they declare WAR. Village of Silky Arrows founded on silky terrain. Hut on SE island yields NOMAD.

550 -- Rabbit-like reproductive skills take us to 600K population. Indians sneak attack. Horseman (on grass) kills our chariot, fortified on hill.

525 -- Nomad establishes city of Fishy Reseach on SE island -- 3 fish plus hidden special. Isle of Doubt settled in SW archipelago. Trade No More starts on vet elephant.

Wise men report that Writing is imminent. Munificent (and sleepy) -Jrabbit elects to leave that choice to the next leader of our great nation. Trade, Seafaring, Mysticism, Engineering, Astronomy, Construction, Warrior Code could all be available...

Said leader must also decide whether to continue to Lighthouse, or switch to Colossus or Pyramids. I also left a decent treasury to work with -- over 100 GP!

IIRC, SG[1] is now up to bat in both this game and Sticky Mouse.
Here's hoping you can find some time, you Scouser.

Last edited by -Jrabbit on 22-11-2002 at 19:32

	22-11-2002 19:36									#46
	Re: Play list updated... Suffering from ads?

Updated play list. Jump in after Straybow, Hydey.

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Special Rules: No Caravans, Freight, or Spies allowed. Diplomats are allowed exclusively for the purpose of establishing embassies. Tech trading and other forms of diplomacy are permitted. Victory condition can be either conquest, or AC. Please start by playing 20 turns, post a message to say when you've dl'ed the game, and try to name cities in keeping of the spirit of the game... Play List: 1. STYOM 2. DaveV 3. SG(2) 4. Jrabbit 5. SG[1] 6. Straybow 7. Hydey 8. La Fayette Post below if you'd like to join in. All are welcome - up to eight, anyway

Once everyone's had a go, depending on how much is going on we may want to drop the turns to 15 or 12.

	23-11-2002 00:01									#47
	Put an end to popups!

Boy, I was tired. Pretty sure I reversed "southeast" and "southwest" in the log text.

I might need to visit that Georgraphy Test thread in the OT...

	23-11-2002 04:40									#48
	Increase Your PM Length

Not a single spy? even non vet?
I MUST play this game (right after Hydey )

	23-11-2002 05:13									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Not a single spy? even non vet? I MUST play this game (right after Hydey )

You're in

A full house...

	23-11-2002 07:59									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

This looks like fun! A real throwback to when we first played... The power of diplomats and caravans was just barely understood. Good luck, all!


(le marquis wondering what he'd build in stead of 300 camels and diplos)

	23-11-2002 16:20									#51
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq (le marquis wondering what he'd build in stead of 300 camels and diplos)

A lighthouse and two dozens ironclads ASAP

	23-11-2002 16:22									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man A full house...

A full lighthouse, I hope

	24-11-2002 15:27									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

There does not look to be a chance for me to fit this one in at the moment - must pass - sorry about the delay

I shall try and force the time to play out my few turns on the No wonders game...

SG[1]

	24-11-2002 18:39									#54
	Suffering from ads?

Sorry to hear that SG[1]... Straybow, you're up

	25-11-2002 06:25									#55
	Straybow Dynasty begins Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Got zip, testing sav now… Houston, we are green for go!

quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Boy, I was tired. I might need to visit that Georgraphy Test thread in the OT

Georgraphy is, I suppose, the study places named "Georgia?"

	25-11-2002 18:28									#56
	Inflate your Upload Space

@ Straybow's comment.

I suspected SG [1][ might run into time trouble.
Go get'm, Stray...

	27-11-2002 16:53									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

ME NEXT, ME NEXT

	28-11-2002 05:30									#58
	Enuff fun for now Remove this text

–525 Review: Ah, the sleazy little kingdom spreads like a rash across the continent, heartily endeavoring to infect its neighbors. Sleaze, saith the speakers of sooth, is the only way to stomp without trade. All I can dredge up from the doctrines of DaveV: maximize growth until size 2, then shields. That, and I'm trying to remember what the heck SMERSH is.

Harumph! BanF built only 1 away from canal site that would have allowed AntiG, AlasNV, and NadaH to contribute to the Navy…

–500 Ummmm, not much happens. Oh, we discover Writing but don't care much.
–––– Big continent discovered to the Southeast
–475 SMERSH Temple complete, now we start a legitimate Dip (to the Mongols)
–––– Hut Mysticism; Continent discovered to South; Babs build Pyramids
–450 Exploring, building

–425 Drop off more units near Trade No More
–400 Alas Temple; spot Celt unit; Indian Phalanx kills our Horsies near TNM
–375 ExtinctC Temple; Pay 50g to keep Celts cool; they won't swap anything
–––– find Bombay
–350 NoTopHat Temple; stumble into Buffalo, Abe wants 100g, swaps Pot for Cur
–––– Warriors become Vet croaking Indian Horsie; tickling here and there

–325 Continent to South sweeps around to West as well! Have Dip, will travel
–300 Caravanless Temple; Hut Legion; Colossus built in Bombay
–275 Ban Freights Temple; Washington located, deliver bananas to Abe but he
–––– tells us to stop leaving Horsie droppings on precious American soil
–250 Locate Boston; Embassy established in Delhi; a little tickling

–225 Report from exploring Warriors: Indians have Elies; Adv Tribe WayOutWest
–200 Warriors unit deserters survivors report on size of Elie feet, tusks, etc.
–175 Locate New York; The Producers is sold out; 21 says our Warriors are
–––– underdressed and suggest they go somewhere else; Nada Hari Diplomat
–150 Lighthouse illuminates the seas for our mighty Triremes!

–125 SMERSH Barracks; locate Chicago; rah in hiding, Ming threatens to ban us
–100 Venerable Bede says were the best; NAFTAno, LackingA Temples; Malaise
–––– founded on tip of southeastern continent
–075 Blasted Aztec beat us to Philosophy by 1 turn! Traces of another civ
–––– far to the south; Dastardly American sneak attack wipes out WayOutWest
–050 Philosophy; Warriors kill American Dip; Adv Tribe Slump joins us
–––– cowardly Indians sneak attack (kills their Phalanx, then our Heffalump)
–025 Celts ally with Indians; send Emissary to see if they will declare war (no?)
–––– Elie stomps Settler (becomes vet)

Guess I'll hand off now. Built Settlers, Triremes, and Elies. Making Barracks to vanquish our enemies. Got a start on mining hidden Silks immediately NE of AntiG and BanF. Started moving Heffalumps to send to America (Dip already on the way), but now with hostilities in the north it might be better to change directions.

Attachment: ap-0025.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	28-11-2002 05:35									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yummy! Two hidden Pheasant near Slump! (Special is always 2 tiles NE or SW of Hut; pattern dictates NE, and fixes second hidden.)

Attachment: slumpspec.jpg
This has been downloaded 42 time(s).

	28-11-2002 06:45									#60
	Nice play...! Put an end to popups!

Ahh, the chaos of an early conquest attempt. Can't wait for my turns!

SMERSH - contraction of 'Smyert Shpionem' trans. 'death to spies' (hoping not to be corrected by Russian speakers). Go read an old James Bond novel!

You're up, Hydey...