06-12-2002 10:30									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

All hail STYOM, new king of the 'Poly Protectionists. Those who don't hail me will be assimilated

Well, we don't need cash, since we can't buy either 'vans or foreign cities. And we don't want techs. STYOM proposes to lower the science rate again, in order to have lots of cash for when fun wonders like Sun Tzu, Magellan and Leos come along...

800: Tax collectors rejoice as scientists are told to learn to ride horses and are given shirts with big "+" signs on them.

Americans learn Math from Greeks, Greeks learn Monarchy from Americans. How cozy. It's the sword for them both. Greeks and Americans swap Seafaring for WarCode, Trade for Wheel and Writing.

Barbarians capture New Orleans.

Babylonians start KRC.

820: Mycenes (Greek) captured, 29 g.
** laughs at message when checking tech tree "No advances leading to Feudalism can be stolen at this time" We want Navigation, so "Then we should steal Seafaring" **
Seafaring acquired from Greeks.

Crusaders purchased in Malaise.
Cork (Celtic) sacked, 15g. Boadicea is told to take a hike.

Greeks land near Malaise and demand 350 g. We laugh; war...

840: researching Navigation.

860: Caerphilly destroyed amid great rejoicing.
Aztec city Tlatelolco located. Cool, more potential enemies.

880: Americans demand Republic, demand rejected; war...

900: Detroit captured, take Engineering. Cars for everyone St Louis sacked, take Trade. Americans demand 250g, we laugh; war...

Tintagel destroyed.

920: Start Marco Polo in AntiGATT. Celts offer cease fire which we accept, expedient for now.

940: Baltimore captured. Americans demand 500g, then offer ceasefire, we accept, demand tribute; war...

Cease fire with Celts violated We also violate the Geneva Convention, the NonProliferation Treaty, the Washington Naval Conference, and stay up past our bedtimes

Advanced Tribe Spit at Camels

Americans destroy Baltimore.

960: Advanced Tribe Smugglers Blues

Babylonians start Leonardo's Workshop
In a canny move, the Babylonian emissary greets us and offers to trade Invention for Republic. After picking himself off the floor, our negotiator agrees to the swap

980: Aztecs demand 800 g, we refuse; war...
AntiGATT production switched to Leonardo's Workshop.

1000: Ship chain sails. Sure, it'd be better with bigger ships, but what the hey...

We're rolling now. I REALLY doubt I'll see another set of turns, but there's still some work to do!

DaveV... over to you...

Attachment: notrade.sav
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	06-12-2002 13:42									#92
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man 880: Americans demand Republic, demand rejected; war...

It's always worth giving away Republic in the hope the Civ concerned will choose that type of government. In a peaceful game trading returns will be enhanced by their extra arrows. In conquest situations Republican governments are easier to beat because of shield support for units and unhappiness caused by troops in the field of battle.

-----------------------

SG(2)

	06-12-2002 17:51									#93
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man DaveV... over to you...

Downloaded.

	06-12-2002 18:06									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Nicely pillaged, STOYM.
Expecting (much) more of the same from the legendary DaveV...

	06-12-2002 20:46									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits It's always worth giving away Republic in the hope the Civ concerned will choose that type of government SG(2)

Funny thing is, I knew that, and didn't do it, anyway... I was in a very hostile mood last night towards all AIs. But you're right, of course...

Has anyone ever done an analysis of shipchain use? Our 3-move triremes can ferry 2 units to America every turn, but I can't help but think it might be better strategy to deliver 20 crusaders every 10 turns, rather than 2/turn...

I'm building the Wonder in AntiGATT just to avoid having to disband units in lieu of caravans. Whether it's MPE, Leo, or something else is up to my successor. I know how Leo might play havoc with vet units... but I don't think that's an issue until Leadership/Electricity... and we're a long way from those!

	07-12-2002 01:40									#96
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Has anyone ever done an analysis of shipchain use?

1) 'ordinary' shipchain:
1 trireme every 3rd square, provides a capacity of 2 units every 2nd turn (1 unit/turn)
1 transport every 8th square (with LH and Magellan), provides a capacity of 8 units every 2nd turn (4 units/turn)

2)'double' shipchain':
2 triremes every 3rd square, provide a capacity of 2 units/turn

3) 'Ribannahs' shipchain:
1 trireme every 7th square, provides a capacity of 2 units every 4th turn (and the voyage is no longer instant, but the investment is much lower ).

	07-12-2002 03:22									#97
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes, but....

I don't have the savegame in front of me now, but IIRC, we have enough ships for a 'revolving' shipchain (i.e. all ships in the chain move their full move towards the destination continent, and once there, return to the source port, in a looping path). So ideally, it's 2 units/turn, assuming ships return to the source port (or are built there) at a rate of 1/turn.

However... trireme is 40 shields/unit - we need, I think, at least 4 or 5 triremes to move 2 units/2 turns, and 8 or 10 to move 2 units/turn. Might we not be better off loading each Trireme, delivering the goods the non-chain way, and then disbanding the trireme at the end city (thereby getting 1/2 a crusader) - yes, it's wasteful of shields, but the issue is that we have lots of shield production on the home continent, and desperately need shields on the US continent. So, moving 20 shields to the front at the cost of 40 at home... good idea, or no?

Or, do we simply rushbuild crusaders on the US continent?

Obviously, with 7-move transports, this is less of an issue. But I wonder if this mini-shipchain is worth the effort...?

	09-12-2002 11:11									#98
	Increase Your PM Length

NOOO! Stop building Triremes, wait for Caravels!

	10-12-2002 00:17									#99
	Put an end to popups!

DaveV... status report?

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Special Rules: No Caravans, Freight, or Spies allowed. Diplomats are allowed exclusively for the purpose of establishing embassies. Tech trading and other forms of diplomacy are permitted. Victory condition can be either conquest, or AC. Play List: 1. STYOM 2. DaveV 3. SG(2) 4. Jrabbit 5. SG[1] 6. Straybow 7. Hydey 8. La Fayette

	10-12-2002 05:12									#100
	Kibitz from the peanut gallery Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Why is it never my turn when the Really Important Decisions must be made?

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	10-12-2002 06:29									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man DaveV... status report?

Playing in my available time, which has been scarce. I will turn the game over by the end of the week, finished with my allotted turns or not. So far, I've played into 1060, captured three American cities, and am battling against the Bab, American, and Greek alliance near St. Louis. The Babs actually sabotaged my production, which I don't think I've ever seen the AI do before.

@Straybow: Crusaders can move twice as far on a road as triremes at sea.

Edit: the story so far:
1000 King Dave sees a need for more production and much less food. Workers are suitably rearranged.
City walls in St. Louis changed to Crusaders. The best defense is a good attack...
Contact Greeks; they want 1000 gold. Tell it to the marines. Mongols give 50 gold tribute, others are not impressed.
Sell: Granary in Detroit, temples in Armagh, Alas no 'vans, NoTopHat, NAFTAno, Nada Hari, Lacking Arrows, Extinct Camel, Caravanless.
Rushbuild 23 shields in Armagh, 4 in Alas no 'vans, 27 in St. Louis, 11 in Spit at Camels, 8 in Smuggler's Blues, 17 in SMERSH, 17 in Silky Arrows, 13 in NoTopHat, 14 in NAFTAno, 13 in Malaise, 21 in Lacking Arrows, 26 in Freight Fright, 9 in Fishy Research, 10 in Detroit, 3 in Delhi, 6 in Bangalore.
Greek catapult kills our crusader. Celt unit in Rhymney kills another.
1020 Babs and greeks sign a secret alliance against us.
Great Wall forces cease fire with Babs, Mongols pay 50. Cease fire with Americans.
Huts: (105,107) 100 go0ld, (123,81) 50 gold
Buy 25 shields in Isle of doubt, 13 in Extinct Camel
Boston captured, we kill Mongol crusader near Boonospyatall. Mongols, in turn, kill our crusader.
1040 We kill Greek chariot, American legion near St. Louis.
Atlanta captured, marketplace sold.
Buy 26 shields in Boston, 36 in Boonospyatall, 25 in Dow Plunges, 13 in Caravanless, 13 in Ban Freights
Huts: (143,79) 50 gold
1060 Greeks have nearly completed KRC. Babs sabotage production in St. Louis, we declare war.
Huts: (103,83) NONE legion
Granary sold in Atlanta.
Washington catpured, marketplace sold.
Our crusader kills Mongol catapult.
CaravanSorry, TradeFreeZone, Not A Canal established.
Buy 13 shields in Trade No More, 20 in Starvingcamel, 34 in St. Louis, 13 in Spit at Camels, 8 in Smugglers Blues, 17 in Lacking Arrows, 5 in Issus, 26 in Freight Fright, 27 in Bombay, 25 in Bangalore, 26 in Armagh
1080 Pharsalos (Greek) completes KRC.
Babylonian horsemen kill our crusader outside St. Louis. We kill him, and his buddies, an American chariot and another Bab horse.
Granary sold in Washington.
Buy 25 shields in NAFTAno, 7 in Not A Canal, 7 in TradeFreeZone, 13 in NoTopHat, 5 in Freight Fright, 7 in Detroit, 9 in CaravanSorry, 12 in Caernarfon
No Commodities established
Huts: (111,79) 100 gold
1100 San Francisco completes MPE .
San Francisco captured, granary sold.
City count: Celts 1 (no capital), Babs 11, Aztecs 6, Americans 6 (no capital), Greeks 11, Mongols 1
American catapult killed near Atlanta.
Buy 7 shields in No Commodities, 12 in Boonospyatall, 25 in St. Louis, 16 in Smugglers Blues, 4 in Extinct Camel, 25 in Dow Plunges, 25 in Boston, 4 in Atlanta.

The remainder of the log, and the save, are a little further down the page...

	11-12-2002 02:42									#102
	Because It Is There Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I Canals!
It's the principle, not the urgent need or practicality of the canal that matters.

PS:

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	11-12-2002 13:39									#103
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hey Stray - you missed a canal zone!!!
(directly above the comma)

SG[1]

	11-12-2002 23:03									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

... and the rest of the reign of King Dave the Terrible:

1120 Americans kill our crusader outside Cincinnati
Huts: (117,79) 100 gold, (109,85) 50 gold, (105,23) 100 gold
Buy 7 shields in San Francisco, 4 in Nada Hari, 16 in Delhi, 4 in Caravanless, 4 in Ban Freights
1140 Aztecs change to republic.
Cincinnati destroyed.
Buy 32 shields in Bombay, 16 in Delhi, 13 in Trade No More, 25 in NAFTAno, 16 in Freight Fright, 4 in Caravanless, 3 in Ban Freights
1160 Babs change to republic
Rhymney destroyed, Celts eliminated, Russians respawned.
Huts (88,30) 50 gold
Buy 21 shields in Detroit, 4 in Washington, 6 in St. Louis, 13 in NoTopHat, 16 in Dow Plunges, 11 in Boston
1180 Greeks have nearly completed Leo's.
Uruk captured, harbor sold. Denver captured.
Huts: (99,21) barb horsemen x4, (110,68) nomads
Trade Gap, No Bonus established.
Buy 4 shields in St. Louis, 17 in Delhi
1200 Aztecs develop gunpowder, Delphi completes Leo's, Mongols develop bridge building. AntiGATT continues building Leo's.
Philadelphia captured, library sold.
Wasted Cope's established.

Notes for other players:
1) Restarting civs are enabled. It is not worth eliminating other civs at this point, since they'll just reincarnate in some out-of-the-way place.
2) AntiGATT is building Leo's, which is already built by the Greeks. Beware of changing production in this city, lest we lose lots of shields.

The save:

Attachment: ap_a1200.zip
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	11-12-2002 23:29									#105
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have the save and will start work shortly.

------------------------

SG(2)

	12-12-2002 02:02									#106
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

so we should take the other civs down to just 1 city and wait.

	12-12-2002 03:13									#107
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by DaveV 2) AntiGATT is building Leo's, which is already built by the Greeks. Beware of changing production in this city, lest we lose lots of shields.

Ermmmm.... why didn't we build Leos? Or Magellan... I figured one or the other would be a good idea...

	12-12-2002 04:30									#108
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

It's harder to commit to WoWs whrn you got no camels...

	12-12-2002 11:01									#109
	On a *swamp*—harumph! Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

SG[1], the tile in question would be too close to Spit at Camels, but it would be better than DaveV's "Not a Canal." He's picking on me, boo hoo!

	12-12-2002 13:41									#110
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Oh that's OK Stray - its the time of year for traditional vilification of people with funny red hats!


SG[1]

	13-12-2002 03:53									#111
	Silly Git... Tired of ads?

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	13-12-2002 05:06									#112
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Gulp ... looked at game and reached for the whisky.

Question: When is a ship chain not a ship chain?

Answer: When it's a pontoon bridge!

Thanks Dave

----------------------------

SG(2)

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	13-12-2002 13:43									#113
	Increase Your PM Length

Yikes, here in the UK they showed a documentary last night about the "Mulberry Harbours" maybe it exerted some influence on the above

Stray - guess i deserved that

SG[1]

	13-12-2002 18:04									#114
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Question: When is a ship chain not a ship chain? Answer: When it's a pontoon bridge!

I was much more concerned with maximizing the number of transported crusaders than living up to any armchair admiral's concept of the ideal ship chain. Critics of my methods are welcome to demonstrate their superior prowess to the breathlessly awaiting audience .

	13-12-2002 22:33									#115
	King DaveV the Wastrel Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yeah, but might it have been even better to complete Nav and build Caravels [(carry 3)·(move 4 w/LH) = double the (carry 2)·(move 3) of Triremes] if maximizing Cruc delivery were your goal?

SG[1], sorry my ancient (Win3.1 era) gif editor couldn't do the animation or transparency for Santa's Steamer, but it is only for a short season.

SG(2), with that "armchair admiral" shot I guess we should all consider ourselves well and duly mocked.

	13-12-2002 23:03									#116
	Re: King DaveV the Wastrel Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Straybow Yeah, but might it have been even better to complete Nav and build Caravels?

And while we puttered about in our science laboratory, the AIs could build city walls, or discover more effective defenders than their current crusader fodder. I am a great believer in striking now rather than waiting for some theoretical optimal future conditions. And, from a purely selfish standpoint, I had a lot more fun sacking cities than I would have had optimizing science beakers.

	13-12-2002 23:56									#117
	Re: Re: King DaveV the Wastrel Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DaveV And, from a purely selfish standpoint, I had a lot more fun sacking cities than I would have had optimizing science beakers.

Quite right Dave. Long live the Armchair Napoleon

I was surprised to see someone who is so keen on maximising shield output being so profligate.

----------------------

SG(2)

	14-12-2002 02:49									#118
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

*Mutters dark things about not getting Leos or Magellan after having built up the treasury*

Well, we ARE winning, despite the strategic disagreements...

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Special Rules: No Caravans, Freight, or Spies allowed. Diplomats are allowed exclusively for the purpose of establishing embassies. Tech trading and other forms of diplomacy are permitted. Victory condition can be either conquest, or AC. Play List: 1. STYOM 2. DaveV 3. SG(2) 4. Jrabbit 5. SG[1] 6. Straybow 7. Hydey 8. La Fayette

	14-12-2002 05:04									#119
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: *Mutters dark things about not getting Leos or Magellan after having built up the treasury*

Don't we have to get Nav before we can build Mag?!? If someone hadn't sold half our Temples we could have a lower Lux rate, and… nevermind.

I say make peace with Babs and move our focus eastward: we can still get Leo when we find Delphi. By then it will be my turn, and I can crank up the science and turn Triremes into Caravels.

	15-12-2002 21:35									#120
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

THE PLAN
The Americans and Mongols have nothing we want, either in the way of science or wonders. The policy will be to contain and not attack these civs in the immediate future.

The Russians are a restart...and their geography is a mystery.

The Aztecs and Babylonians have science we require as well as wonders. There are already substantial regiments of heavies heading for their territories so we will maintain full aggression.

The Greeks have Leo's in Delphi. Accordingly all troops heading for the American continent will be diverted towards Greece.

The emphasis will be on science for the next few turns until Navigation is discovered, so allowing the conversion of the shields for Leo's into Magellan's Expedition. Extreme Xinning will be employed to achieve this goal.

1200 - Hut -Tribe Bribeless

1220 - Hut - Nomad. Large redeployment of troops for Greece.

1240 - Lagash captured 18 plundered Banking taken

1260 - Suez founded. The extra tech of Banking has meant the research rate is now 6...extra Xinning to bring it back to 5.

1280 - Ashur captured 26 gold and library sold; Hut - Musketeer. Barracks at Lagash.

1300 - Navigation now working on Democracy. All Xinning ceased and science rate reuduced to 10%. Athens destroyed Slump liberated from Barbs. Mongols break Cease Fire; Anti-Globalism founded.

1320 - Magellan's Expedition in AnitGATT;
Sparta captured 50g plundered ... Delphi the prime objective has come into view
Aztecs persuaded to declare war. Russians activate their alliance with yellow folk and declare war.
Aztec Junction founded; Hut - load of Barbs.

1340 - Delphi captured along with Leonardo's Workshop now we have Caravels moving 6 44 plundered; Tlaxcala captured; 22 plundered Gunpowder taken. Hut - Crusader.
Notatradingpost founded.

1360 - Bank in AntiGATT; Temple in NAFTAno; Barracks re-building starts. Greek capital now Corinth.
Thermopylae captured; 93 in plunder. Hut - more Barbs; Bye CIA founded.

1380 - Ur and Great Wall captured; 40 plundered; Nineveh taken - 20g plundered;
Pharsalos and King Richard's Crusade captured. Hut - Nomad; Corinthcaptured - 44 in plunder.

Zipped for the Rabbit

--------------------------------

SG(2)

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