18-11-2002 23:01									#1
	The 'No Trade, No Problem' Succession Game Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This, as the title implies, is a succession game:

2.42 (now MGE - load and save in MGE please), Deity, 7 Civs, Raging. Large, custom map.

Special Rules: No Caravans, Freight, or Spies allowed. Diplomats are allowed exclusively for the purpose of establishing embassies. Tech trading and other forms of diplomacy are permitted. Victory condition can be either conquest, or AC.

Please start by playing 20 turns, post a message to say when you've dl'ed the game, and try to name cities in keeping of the spirit of the game...

Play List:

1. STYOM
2. DaveV
3. SG(2)
4. Jrabbit
5.
6.
7.
8.

Post below if you'd like to join in. All are welcome - up to eight, anyway


4000: Start with no techs. Whale sighted.

3950: Horsemen from hut AntiGATT founded - Warriors. Horsemen reveal 2 Whale site NE of AntiGATT. Wise men begin work on the science of Ceremonial Burial.

3850: SMERSH founded - Warriors. Hut located to the NW of AntiGATT. As it touches the city radius, we resolve to open the hut in the hope of a unit...

3800: Archers from hut. Our aloof leader determines that these should garrison AntiGATT, and production in AntiGATT is changed to Settlers.

3700: Another nice 2 Whale site to the west, and a hut. Wise women warn of possible barbarian activity, so the hut is left alone for now.

The streets no longer reek with the stench of our dead. Wise men, thus encouraged by their success, now begin work on something clever to scribe onto tombstones (Alphabet)

3650: Warriors in SMERSH. Settlers production started.

3400: AntiGATT size 2. Workers shifted from Grassland to Forest, as per ancient resource square usage lore.

3250: Pictogram artists begin search for new jobs as Alphabet is discovered. "Monarchy? Whazzat??" quoth the wise men, as they begin work on Pottery.

3200: AntiGATT has coerced some of its inhabitants to Settle elsewhere. Warriors construction begins.

3050: Another hut is discovered, W of AntiGATT. SMERSH rounds up some Settlers, and begins to round up some more.

3000: Road construction starts between AntiGATT and SMERSH.

Attachment: notrade.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

Last edited by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 20-11-2002 at 02:46

	18-11-2002 23:14									#2
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Downloaded. I should be able to play my turns tonight.

	19-11-2002 17:56									#3
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This is going to be easy. The random number generator has gifted us with a bounty of my favorite specials, whales and silk. The barbs have been quiet so far, but they are the only thing that can slow us down at this point.

2950 Nada Hari established.
2900 Hut near Nada Hari yields archers.
2750 Extinct Camel established.
2700 Pottery discovered, Code of Laws next. AntiGATT switched to Hanging Gardens (1 shield lost).
2500 Hut at (60,64) yields advanced tribe - renamed to No Top Hat.
2300 Code of Laws -> Monarchy; Nada Hari completes settler.
2200 SMERSH builds settlers.
2150 Extinct Camel builds settlers.
2000 Begin mining hidden silk NE of AntiGATT, begin road on hidden silk SW of Extinct Camel.

Attachment: ap_b2000.zip
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

	19-11-2002 18:21									#4
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Sounds fun. Would love to play, but I'm a Mac guy and this is 2.42, so...
I'll just conquer vicariously through your posts.

	19-11-2002 19:59									#5
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@ DaveV - looks good, from your log... except for the

quote: This is going to be easy.

I was hoping for a real challenge.

@ Jrabbit - damn, I was hoping that 2.42 would be more inclusive...

	19-11-2002 20:48									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I was hoping for a real challenge.

Well, this is pretty much the way I played before I discovered Apolyton. I know a lot more about the game now...

quote: @ Jrabbit - damn, I was hoping that 2.42 would be more inclusive...

I can convert to MGE, if that would widen the pool of players.

	19-11-2002 22:16									#7
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Would that (switching to MGE, which I have) necessitate starting over? If we're going to do it, we might as well do it now, when the game's young.

	19-11-2002 23:13									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Would that (switching to MGE, which I have) necessitate starting over? If we're going to do it, we might as well do it now, when the game's young.

No, I'd just load my save into MGE and save it again. No muss, no fuss.

	20-11-2002 01:17									#9
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Ok ... sign me up! If nothing else it will bring a wry smile to Dave's face

STYOM ... I guess no caravans for food or wonder building. Please confirm before I start.

-------------------

SG(2) Trying to remember what he built before caravans ruled his play

	20-11-2002 02:38									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Ok ... sign me up! If nothing else it will bring a wry smile to Dave's face STYOM ... I guess no caravans for food or wonder building. Please confirm before I start. ------------------- SG(2) Trying to remember what he built before caravans ruled his play

Exxxxxxxxacty Before I came to Apolyton, trade was foreign to me. I learned to trade and started winning easily on Deity. Now... let's take the trade away, and find out if we are as good as we think we are

NO Caravans for any purposes

@DaveV... great, I'll amend the first post to show MGE required.

@Jrabbit... I'll put you after SG(2). Please advise if there are any special instructions needed so that save files will open on your end...

	20-11-2002 03:01									#11
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I have the game and have saved it into MPGE!

---------------------

SG(2)

	20-11-2002 03:43									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm still experimenting with the savegame issues. I think I'll not need any special treatment anymore, since I now d/l @work (PC), zip them here, and send them home.

The problem is for whoever follows me, who will have to deal with zipped save files. This should not be a barrier, but oddly, at time it is...

Confiming: Only rule is no camels, no freights. Plus dips for embassies only, and no spies at all.

Right? (DaveV is right -- winning without trade is how I learned, though I must confess to an early love affair with Mata Hari.)

	20-11-2002 04:16									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Confiming: Only rule is no camels, no freights. Plus dips for embassies only, and no spies at all. Right? (DaveV is right -- winning without trade is how I learned, though I must confess to an early love affair with Mata Hari.)

Correct - no camels or freights, no spies, diplos only to establish embassies. Anything else is fair game

I won without trade using ICS... which I suspect might be advocated by some here But without diplos... it's gonna be tough work capturing inland walled cities using crusaders (I think). I'll miss those blue eyed temptresses, though. La Fayette will be

	20-11-2002 05:12									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

1950 - We are the third most advanced civ!

1900 - Lacking Arrows founded (53,71)

1850 Monarchy because we are in MPGE we can revolt to MONARCHY in one move. It was a tough choice for the next research goal but the Admiral in me chose Map Making!
Alas no 'vans founded (67, 65)

1750 - SMERSH rushes settler to Capital.

1700 - Settler builds into capital ... now size 3 - top city in F8!

1550 Map Making Now researching Horseback Riding. Settler builds into capital...now size 4.

1500 - We appear to be on an island - large but not huge.

1350 - Ban Freights founded (65,71)

1250 - Horseback Riding Now working on The Wheel.
Dow Plunges founded (60,70)

1100 - Caravanless founded (57,71); Hut 50g. Caravans may not be allowed but that doesn't stop me using the poor man's freight...disbanding horsemen to hurry up our flowers

1050 - Hanging Gardens ... Babylonians start Colossus.

1000 - Trade No More founded on different continent (81,63)

-------------------------------------

SG(2)

Attachment: ap_b1000.zip
This has been downloaded 12 time(s).

	20-11-2002 05:48									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits 1850 Monarchy because we are in MPGE we can revolt to MONARCHY in one move. SG(2)

You learn something everyday... is Oedo year not a factor in MGE?

	20-11-2002 06:06									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Only on Oedo years ... 1850BC is one.
In 2.42 the years begin slightly differently...so when you see the window "You have just learnt a new type of Government...do you want to begin a revolution?" the year has already changed to 1800 (or the next year)

-----------------

SG(2)

	20-11-2002 07:07									#17
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Now I see. Thanks, SG(2)

	20-11-2002 15:04									#18
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Can i book a tentative place - work is getting a bit tough so I might have to skip fairly frequently - if this is OK with all.
Crooks and Clads here we come...

SG[1]

	20-11-2002 18:01									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Ok ... sign me up! If nothing else it will bring a wry smile to Dave's face

I can't find the :wry smile: smiley, so I'll settle for .

* DaveV mumbles something about a roaded silk square giving the same boost to production, and more arrows, than an extra population point.

	20-11-2002 18:08									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No camel!
Good work STYOM, this is a good succession game, sorry but I don't have any spare time....

	20-11-2002 18:31									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

D/L complete. (Thanks for zipping, SG(2)).
Email to home system complete.
This is Quality Time Night with the wife (dinner and West Wing), so can't play until Thursday night.

That's not a terrible delay, but -- STYOM, if you want to jump in, feel free.

	20-11-2002 20:01									#22
	Play list updated... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Updated play list.

@Jrabbit - no rush

@SG[1] - glad to have you aboard! If you're busy with the Sticky Mouse game (btw, whatever happened to Mercatia, original founder of Sticky Mouse??), I can amend the list to slot you in after SG(2) the next time around. At this point you'd be next up after Jrabbit.

@MN - jump in later if you have the chance...

Special Rules: No Caravans, Freight, or Spies allowed. Diplomats are allowed exclusively for the purpose of establishing embassies. Tech trading and other forms of diplomacy are permitted. Victory condition can be either conquest, or AC.

Please start by playing 20 turns, post a message to say when you've dl'ed the game, and try to name cities in keeping of the spirit of the game...

Play List:

1. STYOM
2. DaveV
3. SG(2)
4. Jrabbit
5. SG[1]
6. Straybow
7.
8.


Post below if you'd like to join in. All are welcome - up to eight, anyway

Last edited by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 22-11-2002 at 00:28

	20-11-2002 20:41									#23
	Remove this text

"Diplomats are allowed exclusively for the purpose of establishing embassies"

Any limit to how long they can wander around tipping huts before they find a civ to start an embassy with?

	20-11-2002 21:01									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow "Diplomats are allowed exclusively for the purpose of establishing embassies" Any limit to how long they can wander around tipping huts before they find a civ to start an embassy with?

Well, I suspected there'd be some loopholes in the game parameters

I'd say there's no limit to that kind of wandering. Without bribe capacity, there's not much point in using a diplomat to explore when a horseman is cheaper and more able to defend itself - so, wander away!

Also, I hadn't considered what should happen to diplos if we build MPE/UN. I would think that if we build MPE/UN, any remaining diplomats should be disbanded in the nearest city. MPE expires, of course, so once it expires, diplomats can be built again. In any event, any diplos that upgrade to spies via Leo must be disbanded immediately. And if we don't have embassies, too bad

I don't remember if diplomats have a chance to thwart espionage attempts against a city they occupy. If they do, then, diplomats shall not be kept in cities for longer than a turn.

Does that clarify matters?

	20-11-2002 21:07									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I don't remember if diplomats have a chance to thwart espionage attempts against a city they occupy. If they do, then, diplomats shall not be kept in cities for longer than a turn.

A diplomat has a chance to stop an attempt to steal tech. I had it happen in an MP game.

[back-seat driver]Speaking of horses, we need a bunch of them! The barbs could cut through our warriors like a hot knife through butter, and there are black squares to be explored![/back-seat driver]

	20-11-2002 22:50									#26
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a small point - once espionage is available there are no Dips - how do you then (re)establish embassies?

SG[1]

	20-11-2002 23:00									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits a small point - once espionage is available there are no Dips - how do you then (re)establish embassies? SG[1]

You don't Hopefully that adds a small amount of challenge to the game.

If we get embassies via MPE, then we lose those embassies when it expires. There's a short window of time between Communism and Espionage in which diplos could be shipped towards foreign cities.

Or, of course, we could avoid researching Espionage... there's no reason to learn it, really.

Or... build or capture the UN...

	20-11-2002 23:09									#28
	Tired of ads?

Bah. Who really thinks the game will lost long enough to research such esoteric techs as espionage? Since we can't build caravans, we might as well build troops .

	21-11-2002 04:49									#29
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by DaveV Bah. Who really thinks the game will lost long enough to research such esoteric techs as espionage? Since we can't build caravans, we might as well build troops .

OK Genghis...what's your prescription? Lean and mean science until Democracy > SoL > Soft Fundy or perhaps Commie to keep the science rolling until Steam Engine/Leadership?

------------------

SG(2)

	21-11-2002 17:56									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits OK Genghis...what's your prescription? Lean and mean science until Democracy > SoL > Soft Fundy or perhaps Commie to keep the science rolling until Steam Engine/Leadership?

I think our best bet now is to flood the map with horsemen (or explorers?) and pick up a bunch of techs from huts and negotiation with the AIs. I'd love to have SoL and STWA for wonders. Best military tech required is probably ironclads, musketeers, crusaders. Railroads would make the job faster, but no less inevitable.

We shouldn't hunker down until we reach some magic enabling tech; the sooner we spread out across the map, the quicker we'll grow. We can count on picking up some cities from huts, and we can take some AI cities with units from huts. Why wait for the AIs to build city walls and decent defensive units?

"That's a nice capital you've got there, Abe. It would be a shame if something ... happened to it."