07-12-2002 21:05									#151
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Just in case you wish someone with a governmental post to approve what Tiberius said

Geez, I really must have come through as someone who adores and follows authority blindly.

Can't allow to spread this image, so just for the record: I don't judge people based on rank, rather based on their involvment and quality of their arguments. The very fact that Tiberius maintains the Constitution and has taken the time to read and answer my post makes him as competent as anyone in my eye to address these issues.

	07-12-2002 21:55									#152
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quote: Originally posted by delmar 1.) While the constitution outlines pretty much in detail who is responsible for what, I am surprised to see that it isn't mentioned anywhere (and in fact I couldn't find any references to this on this whole private forum of ours -- I hope I just missed something) who is responsible for not losing and winning (note that these are two separate things). I would like to see explicitely mentioned the responsibilities of the ministers in terms of victory conditions as potential threats. Who will be responsible to prevent a cultural defeat? A conquer defeat? A domination defeat? Etc. I would also like to see a statement about how we intend to actually win this game. I realize that this is not something that you can carve into stone and never let it go (neither is the Constitution, btw), but I do think we need to set a direction. I would recommend Spacerace Victory for such a direction, as everything else is either against our Builder image (conquer, domination), or very nearly impossible against humans (culture, diplomatic, histograph). 2.) The Constitution says that the Senate can make any decision with simple majority (well, "simple majority" is not mentioned explicitly in the latest, but I guess it's implied) that a minister could have made. I would recommend to reconsider this and somehow strengthen the position of the ministers. After all I would expect them to know more about their particular area than the average citizen, so it doesn't seem fair that they can be outvoted with simple majority. I think a veto system should be put in place where the minister can veto any decision on his field and then the Senate must have 75% majority to force through the decision (and perhaps the minister should resign if this happens repeatedly). 3.) On a general note, I think it would be a good idea to require that the president (or whoever actually plays the game) publishes his intended moves for every turn on a thread, specifically designated and preserved for this purpose, X hours prior to mailing it to the next team (my choice for X would be 2). Every citizen could comment on the moves on a different thread with the president having sole discration of accepting or ignoring the comment. This is to avoid misunderstandings and obvious mistakes, not to make last-minute changes in the overall strategy. We might want to consider to grant veto rights to ministers in this phase. 4.) I think it will be necessary to have multiple Area Directors, reporting to the Master Build, as Legoland expands. These Area Directors would be responsible for micro-managing cities. My personal experience is that no one can pay close enough attention to more than 5 cities, so I would suggest that a new Area Director must be enacted if there are candidates and more than 5 cities per existing Area Directors. I am not absolutely positive that this must be part of the Constitution, but considering how important cities are in this game, it might as well be. 5.) Be sure to run the final version through a spell-checker. For example the word "negotiate" is misspelled on multiple occasions, and I am sure there are others as well (I am sure because I would misspell lot of things myself -- no offense meant). Thanks, Delmar

on point 1.)
The consitutions primary purpose is to have in written fomr how the team will be runed. I was the one who sugested that we make a consitution to avoid disputes latter because everyone will know who things are runned and can have something to look back at if questions come up. As for responsiblitly of winning or losing. I would think that it is already in the consitution. If you dont like how someone is running things you can always vote them out of office. The planing of our strategy i would not want in a consitution, but in disscussion threads on the subject. Also you must remember that things are chaning in the game all the time, so one minute you think spaceship victory is good, but then realize it is not. (A side note on spaceship victory. Once anyone comes close to building a spaceship, I would not be surprised when anther team declares war on us and heads straight for our cpaital and nukes it. )

2.)
I was the only one in the team that wanted a veto power for the president, and in fact i still do, but there is no susport for this. Everyone wants the senate to have all the power basically, they want everyone in team to have a say. Of course ehteir way they will have a say, but if you think you can convince everyone on team that giving the president veto power is a good idea then it will be put in. ALlthough the president and change orders while he is playing the game if things happen that make orders given to him harmfull or no longer applies.

3.)
well some people want this too, and me and vondrack are already doing this.

4.)
Well we could have it, even if it does not get added to the consitution we can add it latter. Anther thing that might make this hard, is that our members seem not to want to set up and accept government positions. Took us a long time to get people for abassadors and minsiters. Also no one has step up to be part of the High Court, and that is still emepty.

	07-12-2002 21:55									#153
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quote: Originally posted by delmar I must have expressed myself vaguely: I am not looking for someone to be blamed, I am looking for someone who will consciously and regularly check that, say, team X is not getting close to holding more than 2/3 of the land. Or has an estimate about how much culture points team Y has. I am asking for this because I personally have never done this in any SP game and I suspsect that no one has (feel free to tell me if I am wrong and you do such things routinely when playing against the AI). Consequently I am afraid that these things will be simply forgotten.

That's a good idea Do you have suggestions on who should be responsible for what ? I guess we could create an aide to the Foreign Minister in the later game, when other teams will come nearer to victory.

quote: Also, you didn't address my question regarding how we plan to win.

We're builders, and it is likely we want to win by spacerace. But as you said, it shouldn't be "carved in stone". It appears most of us want the constitution to be amended with a 66% majority, so anything we write here will be "carved in stone". Plus, my personal point of view is that the constitution is the text where we organize our decision making, and not the place where we write actual policy.

quote: It's a question of involvment, not overall "value" of citizens. Example: So far I read the majority of the Foreign Affairs thread (not everything!), got involved in the Master Build election, and read the Constitution. And I am overwhelmed. I can't imagine I can stay on top of every aspect and every little detail of the game. Say you are the Military Architect and I have never read any posts in your personal forum because I simply didn't have the time to do it. Would you like me to go there and vote in an issue with the same weight as you have? Personally, I wouldn't. You won't even know if I voted against your suggestion (or will you?) so that you could come after me and convince me that I am wrong (side question: once I voted, can I change my vote without restarting the whole voting?) Hence my suggestion.

From personal experience in the Single Player Democracy Game, the suggestions of the ministers are often carefully read by the voters. The vote will often go in the direction of the minister (if he has a stance on the issue) except if he has a position which seems really stupid or too undocumented.

quote: Someone (perhaps you?) suggested earlier that the Presdient should have veto rights, but a presidential veto can be overridden by 75% majority. I really liked this idea and I was looking for something similar for ministers. Is this the suggestion that was rejected 10 to 1? If so, feel free to ignore my above comments.

This very suggestion has been rejected. I suppose the most important reasons were :
- we are a team, and nobody is more important than anybody else (Tiberius says it better)
- it would add more clutter, while we only have 24 hours to meet decisions.
- checks and balances aren't needed in a small population such as ours.

Thanks for your contribution ! I hope your idea of someone responsible to check the progresses of other teams will spark some discussion

	07-12-2002 22:03									#154
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also Delmar, about havning people in charge of seing how we are doing in reaching a certain victory condition, i would believe that would be responsiblilty of the ministers, i know that is not written in there, but you could see it if you look at the responsiblities of the ministers already.

	08-12-2002 00:28									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www also Delmar, about havning people in charge of seing how we are doing in reaching a certain victory condition, i would believe that would be responsiblilty of the ministers

Funny thing is, I would believe so, too! Small problem is, I don't know. And I especially don't know which minsters? I brought up two examples in my previous post that IMHO are likely to fall through the cracks because everyone thinks "it's not my job", or because people simply don't realize that somebody (anybody) should be doing it. The solution to such problems, in my experience, is to write it down that it is very damn well X's, Y's or Z's job, and then it will be taken care of.

To reflect on one of Spiffor's comment, I personally have had some doubts whether much of my suggestions should be really in the Constitution. Formally, they probably shouldn't. OTOH, I don't think we really want to produce a series of documents, each addressing one or the other aspect of our game play. If we can have one document that describes everything important, then maybe we can make sure that every citizen reads that one document. Starting from this premise, the only question we need to answer is "what is important?"

I feel that winning the game is.

	08-12-2002 00:37									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor From personal experience in the Single Player Democracy Game, the suggestions of the ministers are often carefully read by the voters.

I am happy to hear this. If so, then my worries are probably unwarranted. It's a moot point anyway, as the very same suggestion was declined on the presidential level already, so it's clearly not what the majority wants.

	09-12-2002 17:51									#157
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Based on Delmar's idea and one of my own, I rewrote section 3 from the Constitution. The additions have been written with italic characters:

Section 3 : The ministers
- The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
- There are 4 ministers: the Master Builder, the Military Architect, the Enlightened and the Foreign Advisor.
- It is the ministers responsibility to make their decisions/orders public in time, so the President can act consequently
- The Master Builder (Domestic Minister) is responsible for managing all cities, their production queues, their citizens, and all of the workers and settlers. He is responsible for choosing sites for new cities, disbanding cities, and making rushed production requests.
- Should the Master Builder feel that his responsibilities are overwhelming, he can appoint a deputy minister, responsible for managing the workers, called the Head Engineer.
- Should the Master Builder feel that his responsibilities in managing cities are overwhelming as Legoland expands, he is allowed to appoint Area Directors. The Area Directors shall be responsible for micro-managing groups of cities. They shall be named in such a manner that will allow for maximum efficiency in managing the cities of Legoland.
- The Military Architecht (Minister of Defense) shall be responsible for the movement of all military units, as well as long-term strategic plans.
- The Enlightened (Minister of Science and Economy) shall be responsible for managing sliders and selecting future courses of research. He is also responsible for keeping track of all trade treaties. He must initiate new trade treaties when they become available. New treaties must be approved by the Senate.
- The Foreign Advisor (Foreign Affairs Minister) coordinates the foreign policy of Legoland. He gives instructions to ambassadors, keeps track of treaties and foreign events. He must report regularly to the President and the Senate. Should any ambassador be unavailable, the FA shall take over his responsabilities. He is also responsible for gathering intelligence information on the request of the Senate, the President or one of the Ministers. High risk intelligence activities, that could result in declaration of war from other nations, must be approved by the Senate with simple majority vote.
- Every Minister is allowed to appoint a Deputy Minister in his field of activity. He can do this if he feels like he needs an advisor and/or if he doesn’t have the time to fulfill all of his duties and wants to delegate responsibilities. The Deputy Minister shall take over the Minister’s responsibilities when the Minister is unavailable.

-------------------
Please feel free to comment them (also if anybody feels he can write it in a better style, please do so)

Last edited by Tiberius on 09-12-2002 at 17:57

	09-12-2002 19:33									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Please feel free to comment them (also if anybody feels he can write it in a better style, please do so)

Tibi, good idea!

However, I would merge the Master Builder clause with the other one, keeping the text as brief as possible.:

Ministers are free to appoint one or more Deputy Ministers, that assist them in managing their Ministerial agenda. The Deputy Ministers become, in the order they were appointed, responsible for handling the Ministerial agenda, should the Minister be temporarily unavailable.

	09-12-2002 19:55									#159
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I agree with Vondrack . It gives much more flexibility to our ministers this way. Heck, we could imagine our Military Architect to appoint local generals, or even to appoint an "chief scout" responsible for our 4-5 exploring units only .

	10-12-2002 00:01									#160
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I think that is an excellent idea. I'd been toying with the same sort of concept, on a regional level once we had more cities. Like you said, local generals and such. Definately could be needed with multiple worker regions, if we have hoardes of the little guys running around (and we know we will...), and multiple generals if we (let's really try not to...) are involved in a two-front war.

	10-12-2002 00:06									#161
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Radek, thanks for rewording it. I'll update my draft with your words

	10-12-2002 16:56									#162
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Updated once again. In case that no one has objections to this draft until the [TBA] votes are done, I’ll consider this the final draft.

--------------------------------

Magna Chartaginia

Preamble
We the people of Legoland seek to better the world around them through the development of our lands and the growth of our sciences. We are a peaceful people, but not a passive one. Our lands will be defended at any cost, and our troops are willing and able to march forth against any enemy that deigns to threaten us. The world can be a better place, and it is our job to make it so.

Article I: The citizens

Section 1: The Rights

As all the bricks in a foundation are equally important, so too are the citizens of Legoland. Every citizen carries rights and burdens of responsibility that are no greater, nor no less than any of their fellows. All speak with an equal voice, and no voice should go unheard. So long as a citizen stays involved with the affairs of the land, they may seek, or be appointed to, any office in the land. A civilization built on a foundation such as this shall no crumble from within, nor be toppled from without.

Section 2: The Responsibilities
It is every citizen’s duty to make known their thoughts on the state and future of our land. Only through open discussion can we find the proper path to choose from. It is also every citizen's duty to serve in the best interests of the land. A citizen must no willfully pass on information to our foes that would endanger our safety nor give away our secrets.

Article II: The executive branch

Section 1: The President
- The Senate elects the President every [TBA]. He requires an absolute majority of the votes to be elected. Runoff poll will be done if necessary.
- Only a member having PtW can run for presidency.
- The President physically plays the game, according to the wishes of the Ministers and Senate
- The President shall post a report and a save of the game to the Senate after every turn.
- When the wishes of the Ministers do not come to the President in time, or are harmful due to changes in game, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team.
- Should an ambassador be unable to negotiate with another team, and the Foreign minister unavailable to take over him, the President must negotiate directly with the other team.
- If the Vice President or any minister spot is vacant, then the President can appoint a new one to that spot, who will serve until the next election.
- Should the President be unable to accomplish all of his duties in time, he can delegate some of his responsibilities to the VP

Section 2: The Vice President
- The President appoints the VP from the Ministers
- One must have PtW to become VP
- When the President is unavailable, the Vice President replaces him.

Section 3: The Ministers
- The Senate elects the Ministers every [TBA] .
- There are 4 Ministers: the Master Builder, the Military Architect, the Enlightened and the Foreign Advisor.
- It is the ministers responsibility to make their decisions/orders public in time, so the President can act consequently
- The Master Builder (Domestic Minister) is responsible for managing all cities, their production queues, their citizens, and all of the workers and settlers. He is responsible for choosing sites for new cities, disbanding cities, and making rushed production requests.
- The Military Architect (Minister of Defense) shall be responsible for the movement of all military units, as well as long-term strategic plans.
- The Enlightened (Minister of Science and Economy) shall be responsible for managing sliders and selecting future courses of research. He is also responsible for keeping track of all trade treaties. He must initiate new trade treaties when they become available. The Senate must approve new treaties.
- The Foreign Advisor (Foreign Affairs Minister) coordinates the foreign policy of Legoland. He gives instructions to ambassadors, keeps track of treaties and foreign events. He must report regularly to the President and the Senate. Should any ambassador be unavailable, the FA shall take over his responsibilities. He is also responsible for gathering intelligence information on the request of the Senate, the President or one of the Ministers. High-risk intelligence activities that could result in declaration of war from other nations must be approved by the Senate
- Ministers are free to appoint one or more Deputy Ministers, that assist them in managing their ministerial agenda. The Deputy Ministers become, in the order they were appointed, responsible for handling the ministerial agenda, should the Minister be temporarily unavailable.

Section 4: Ambassadors
- Ambassadors should act upon the instructions of the FA and report directly to the FA
- Ambassadors deal directly with all other teams in the game.
- Ambassadors are primary ones who talk and negotiate deals with other teams.

Article III: the Senate
- Every member of the Legoland team is a member of the Senate.
- Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.
- The Senate can issue any order that could be issued by a minister. A member of the executive branch cannot overrule this decision.
- The Senate can veto any decision coming from the Ministers or the President, with absolute majority. However, if such a decision has already been applied in the game, the veto has no effect.
- The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate/votes ? to pass.

Article IV: The Supreme Court
- The Supreme Court shall consist of three judges, appointed by the President at the beginning of his term.
- If 2 out of 3 judges vote to hear a case, the case will be presented to the court for trial.
- The court's main responsibility is to deal with cases regarding constitutional interpretation, or cases with severe consequences (treason, abuse of office, etc.), or cases which the public is unable to settle.
- The citizenry may settle any case rejected by the court.

Article V: Voting procedures
- Various affairs of the Legoland state are decided by means of votes/polls. The result of any poll that is declared valid is binding for the President and his Ministers.
– Polls are decided by a simple sum of received votes. The option/candidate receiving the highest number of votes is declared the winner.
- Should any poll end up with more than one winner, the President breaks the tie. Should the President not be available, the right to break the tie passes on to whoever plays the turn for the team.
- A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
- As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed
- Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Amendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.

Article VI: Amending the Constitution
- Any citizen can suggest an amendment to the Constitution
- Once an amendment is drafted and supported by at least two other members of Legoland, it must be introduced to the Senate.
- The amendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.

---------
Edited: I forgot about the spelling checker. Now it is done (so from now on please blame MS in case of spelling errors )

Last edited by Tiberius on 10-12-2002 at 17:17

	04-01-2003 05:01									#163
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Reading posts in another thread, I have realized I no longer recall the Constitution draft very well. I have just reread it again and, honestly, I was pleasantly surprised... Well written, IMHO. Based upon the first month of the gameplay, I believe we might wish to omit one part:

Just BTW, can someone fill me in what TBA exactly stands for? I can't figure that out, even though I generally understand the term.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Article IV: The Supreme Court - The Supreme Court shall consist of three judges, appointed by the President at the beginning of his term. - If 2 out of 3 judges vote to hear a case, the case will be presented to the court for trial. - The court's main responsibility is to deal with cases regarding constitutional interpretation, or cases with severe consequences (treason, abuse of office, etc.), or cases which the public is unable to settle. - The citizenry may settle any case rejected by the court.

Now, do we really need The Supreme Court? First: even though Jack asked our members twice to apply for the positions, nobody ever expressed any desire to become a Judge (I suspect we have too few active members to be able to find Judges anyway). Second, since the game began on Dec 1, I have never felt any need to make a "case" suitable for a "court". And judging from how things go, I seriously doubt there could ever be a situation we might really need The Supreme Court. We all seem to be very reasonable people (especially considering the team as a whole). Whatever might turn out to be a major problem could be (and is likely to be) settled by means of a standard vote anyway.

	04-01-2003 07:32									#164
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I would keep that in their. Maybe we can from a court when we need it. Right now everthing is running ok, so how about just froming it when we need it?