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Jack_www
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Really all the drafts are simple, also being to simple is bad also. Even the longest drafts dont even take up a whole page. Personally I like more detail.
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Jack_www
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I am just saying dont make it too simple. I read over the latest draft i think it is fine, we just need to come up with terms of office. I was thinking for ministers and President that could serve for a month, maybe two months, then if someone wants to run for President they can. But if no one runs, and the person does not step down, then they conitnue on in their position.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:23
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Tibi, would you try to formulate a paragraph on voting based on the following principle, please? We discussed it yesterday with Jack and I would like to have at least a precised draft of this solution, so that we can later vote on the issue.
What me and Jack believe is that we should set no quorum (minimum number of votes), to prevent lockups and indecisive votes. The only limitation would be that a poll intended to be binding for the President & Ministers would have to say so in the first post, would have to last for at least three days, and would have to gain a majority support for one of the options (see one of my past posts). A clause on closing already decided polls would be nice, too.
Anyone not in favour of such a solution, be so kind and formulate a counter-proposal, so that we can choose one of them to be incorporated into the Constitution draft.
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Jack_www
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With the 66% you mean that is 66% of the senate has voted in the poll right? Also I would like to see the consitution final draft done and a poll held on it before the end of the week. I would like to get things moving so we can get down to running our civ.
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ZargonX
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Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:23
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Important Issues:
-Constituational Ammendments
-Declarations of War
-Elections
-Removal from Office
edit: removed punishment of constitutional violations after Tiberius' very vaild point...
Last edited by ZargonX on 05-12-2002 at 12:39
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:23
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Magna Chartaginia
Preamble
We the people of Legoland seek to better the world around them through the development of our lands and the growth of our sciences. We are a peaceful people, but not a passive one. Our lands will be defended at any cost, and our troops are willing and able to march forth against any enemy that deigns to threaten us. The world can be a better place, and it is our job to make it so.
Article I: The citizens
Section 1: The Rights
As all the bricks in a foundation are equally important, so too are the citizens of Legoland. Every citizen carries rights and burdens of responsibility that are no greater, nor no less than any of their fellows. All speak with an equal voice, and no voice should go unheard. So long as a citizen stays involved with the affairs of the land, they may seek, or be appointed to, any office in the land. A civilization built on a foundation such as this shall no crumble from within, nor be toppled from without.
Section 2: The Responsibilities
It is every citizens duty to make known their thoughts on the state and future of our land. Only through open discussion can we find the proper path to choose from. It is also every citizen's duty to serve in the best interests of the land. A citizen must no willfully pass on information to our foes that would endanger our safety nor give away our secrets.
Article II : The executive branch
Section 1 : The President
- The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate. He requires an absolute majority of the votes to be elected. Runoff poll will be done if necessary.
- Only a member having PtW can run for presidence.
- The President physically plays the game, according to the wishes of the Ministers and Senate
- The President shall post a report and a save of the game to the Senate after every turn.
- When the wishes of the Ministers do not come to the President in time, or are harmful due to changes in game, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team.
- Should an ambassador be unable to negociate with another team, and the Foreign minister unavailable to take over him, the President must negociate directly with the other team.
- If the Vice President or any minister spot is vacant, then the President can appoint a new one to that spot, who will serve untill the next election.
- Should the President be unable to accomplish all of his duties in time, he can delegate some of his responsibilities to the VP
Section 2 : The Vice President
- The VP is appointed by the President from the Ministers
- One must have PtW to become VP
- When the President is unavailable, the Vice President replaces him.
Section 3 : The ministers
- The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
- There are 4 ministers: the Master Builder, the Military Architect, the Enlightened and the Foreign Advisor.
- It is the ministers responsibility to make their decisions/orders public in time, so the President can act consequently
- The Master Builder (Domestic Minister) is responsible for managing all cities, their production queues, their citizens, and all of the workers and settlers. He is responsible for choosing sites for new cities, disbanding cities, and making rushed production requests.
- Should the Master Builder feel that his responsibilities are overwhelming, he can appoint a deputy minister, responsible for managing the workers, called the Head Engineer.
- The Military Architecht (Minister of Defense) shall be responsible for the movement of all military units, as well as long-term strategic plans.
- The Enlightened (Minister of Science and Economy) shall be responsible for managing sliders and selecting future courses of research. He is also responsible for keeping track of all trade treaties. He must initiate new trade treaties when they become available. New treaties must be approved by the Senate.
- The Foreign Advisor (Foreign Affairs Minister) coordinates the foreign policy of Legoland. He gives instructions to ambassadors, keeps track of treaties and foreign events. He must report regularly to the President and the Senate. Should any ambassador be unavailable, the FA shall take over his responsabilities. He is also responsible for gathering intelligence information on the request of the Senate, the President or one of the Ministers. High risk intelligence activities, that could result in declaration of war from other nations, must be approved by the Senate with simple majority vote.
Section 4 : Ambassadors
- Ambassadors should act upon the instructions of the FA and report directly to the FA
- Ambassadors deal directly with all other teams in the game.
- Ambassadors are primary ones who talk and negociate deals with other teams.
Article III : the Senate
- Every member of the Legoland team is a member of the Senate.
- Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.
- The Senate can issue any order that could be issued by a minister. This decision cannot be overruled by a member of the executive branch.
- The Senate can veto any decision coming from the Ministers or the President, with absolute majority. However, if such a decision has already been applied in the game, the veto has no effect.
- The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.
Article IV : The Supreme Court
- The supreme court shall consist of three judges, appointed by the President at the beginning of his term.
- If 2 out of 3 judges vote to hear a case, the case will be presented to the court for trial.
- The court's main responsibility is to deal with cases regarding constitutional interpretation, or cases with severe consequences (treason, abuse of office, etc.), or cases which the public is unable to settle.
- Any case rejected by the court may be settled by the citizenry.
Article V : Voting procedures
- Various affairs of the Legoland state are decided by means of votes/polls. The result of any poll that is declared valid is binding for the President and his Ministers.
– Polls are decided by a simple sum of received votes. The option/candidate receiving the highest number of votes is declared the winner.
- Should any poll end up with more than one winner, the President breaks the tie. Should the President not be available, the right to break the tie passes on to whoever plays the turn for the team.
- A poll is declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
- As soon as any option in a given poll is voted for by at least [TBA] percent of the Senate, the poll may immediately be declared valid and closed
- Exceptions: Polls that decide Constitutional Ammendments, Declarations of War, Elections and Removal from Office are declared valid if opened for at least [TBA] period or if at least [TBA] percent of the Senate voted in it.
Article VI : Amending the Consitution
- Any citizen can suggest an amendment to the Constitution
- Once a ammendment is drafted and supported by at least two other members of Legoland, it must be introduced to the Senate.
- The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes.
-------------
Still waiting for the Master Builder-Head Engineer poll's results; this could change the draft.
Otehrwise, it is pretty finished. We need to decide the percentages (should we hold polls for these?) and after that we can proceed voting the Constitution.
Added:
1. - Should the President be unable to accomplish all of his duties, he can delegate some of his responsibilities to the VP For example, posting the turn report and the gamesave, and so on.
2. - It is the ministers responsibility to make their decisions/orders public in time, so the President can act consequently. ... and, if possible, is the "MINISTERIAL ORDERS" thread.
Last edited by Tiberius on 05-12-2002 at 19:53
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delmar
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Dear All,
first of all let me suggest that you keep the first post in this thread updated with the latest version of the constitution, otherwise it will be difficult for newcomers (like me  ) to figure out what's the latest and greatest.
I hope I read the latest and greatest and I would have a few comments:
1.) While the constitution outlines pretty much in detail who is responsible for what, I am surprised to see that it isn't mentioned anywhere (and in fact I couldn't find any references to this on this whole private forum of ours -- I hope I just missed something) who is responsible for not losing and winning (note that these are two separate things).
I would like to see explicitely mentioned the responsibilities of the ministers in terms of victory conditions as potential threats. Who will be responsible to prevent a cultural defeat? A conquer defeat? A domination defeat? Etc.
I would also like to see a statement about how we intend to actually win this game. I realize that this is not something that you can carve into stone and never let it go (neither is the Constitution, btw), but I do think we need to set a direction. I would recommend Spacerace Victory for such a direction, as everything else is either against our Builder image (conquer, domination), or very nearly impossible against humans (culture, diplomatic, histograph).
2.) The Constitution says that the Senate can make any decision with simple majority (well, "simple majority" is not mentioned explicitly in the latest, but I guess it's implied) that a minister could have made. I would recommend to reconsider this and somehow strengthen the position of the ministers. After all I would expect them to know more about their particular area than the average citizen, so it doesn't seem fair that they can be outvoted with simple majority. I think a veto system should be put in place where the minister can veto any decision on his field and then the Senate must have 75% majority to force through the decision (and perhaps the minister should resign if this happens repeatedly).
3.) On a general note, I think it would be a good idea to require that the president (or whoever actually plays the game) publishes his intended moves for every turn on a thread, specifically designated and preserved for this purpose, X hours prior to mailing it to the next team (my choice for X would be 2). Every citizen could comment on the moves on a different thread with the president having sole discration of accepting or ignoring the comment. This is to avoid misunderstandings and obvious mistakes, not to make last-minute changes in the overall strategy. We might want to consider to grant veto rights to ministers in this phase.
4.) I think it will be necessary to have multiple Area Directors, reporting to the Master Build, as Legoland expands. These Area Directors would be responsible for micro-managing cities. My personal experience is that no one can pay close enough attention to more than 5 cities, so I would suggest that a new Area Director must be enacted if there are candidates and more than 5 cities per existing Area Directors. I am not absolutely positive that this must be part of the Constitution, but considering how important cities are in this game, it might as well be.
5.) Be sure to run the final version through a spell-checker. For example the word "negotiate" is misspelled on multiple occasions, and I am sure there are others as well (I am sure because I would misspell lot of things myself -- no offense meant).
Thanks,
Delmar
Last edited by delmar on 07-12-2002 at 01:37
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:23
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Hi Delmar, wellcome to Legoland!
To answer your first question, the one that wasn't numbered  : I am the one who lately has updated the Constitution draft, but I cannot do what you've said, since that post wasn't mine. You don't have to read the whole thread however, only the last draft. Before voting it, we'll put the final draft in a new thread, where everybody can easily read it.
1) I think the whole team is responsible for winning and not losing. That's why we are here: we want to win (and to learn in the meantime). The power of our team is in the Senate's hands, which means the whole team. We are not that many, we can quickly react, switch strategy or tactics if the situation/threat requires it.
You're saying: "Who will be responsible to prevent a cultural defeat? A conquer defeat? A domination defeat?". Every one of us. We're here to enjoy this game and win if possible, not to blame each other who is responsible for a defeat. We all are. We are a team.
2) There is no such thing: "average citizen". We are not a country, where it is supposed that 90% of the polulation has no idea how to run it. We are all civ players, builders and nobody is above the others. Not even the President. The ministers can explain why they made a decison and if 51% of Legoland citizens feel that it is wrong, it means the team doesn't want it.
Btw, a previous poll that would have given veto powers to the President was rejected with a majority of 10 to 1 or something like this.
3) The ministers should have each their own thread, where they discuss the next moves with the citizens. The ministers then put their decision in the Ministerial Orders thread for a final review. The final decisions are then centrilized (by me) in the Guidlines for the President thread.
4) This is a good idea, but the moment is so far away, that we have plenty of time to do this later. For us is more important to have finally a Constitution, a government and be able to play the game already.
5) Good idea.
Thanks for your contribution.
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delmar
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
You're saying: "Who will be responsible to prevent a cultural defeat? A conquer defeat? A domination defeat?". Every one of us. We're here to enjoy this game and win if possible, not to blame each other who is responsible for a defeat. We all are. We are a team.
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I must have expressed myself vaguely: I am not looking for someone to be blamed, I am looking for someone who will consciously and regularly check that, say, team X is not getting close to holding more than 2/3 of the land. Or has an estimate about how much culture points team Y has. I am asking for this because I personally have never done this in any SP game and I suspsect that no one has (feel free to tell me if I am wrong and you do such things routinely when playing against the AI). Consequently I am afraid that these things will be simply forgotten.
Also, you didn't address my question regarding how we plan to win.
quote:
2) There is no such thing: "average citizen". We are not a country, where it is supposed that 90% of the polulation has no idea how to run it. We are all civ players, builders and nobody is above the others.
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It's a question of involvment, not overall "value" of citizens. Example: So far I read the majority of the Foreign Affairs thread (not everything!), got involved in the Master Build election, and read the Constitution. And I am overwhelmed. I can't imagine I can stay on top of every aspect and every little detail of the game. Say you are the Military Architect and I have never read any posts in your personal forum because I simply didn't have the time to do it. Would you like me to go there and vote in an issue with the same weight as you have? Personally, I wouldn't. You won't even know if I voted against your suggestion (or will you?) so that you could come after me and convince me that I am wrong (side question: once I voted, can I change my vote without restarting the whole voting?) Hence my suggestion.
quote:
Btw, a previous poll that would have given veto powers to the President was rejected with a majority of 10 to 1 or something like this.
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Someone (perhaps you?) suggested earlier that the Presdient should have veto rights, but a presidential veto can be overridden by 75% majority. I really liked this idea and I was looking for something similar for ministers. Is this the suggestion that was rejected 10 to 1? If so, feel free to ignore my above comments.
Thanks for listening!
Delmar
Last edited by delmar on 07-12-2002 at 21:18
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01-12-2002 03:10
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