27-11-2002 21:50									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius About voting, I have a "what if" question: I can see that from all of Legoland's members, maybe 8 or so (I didn't count them, so maybe I'm wrong) are active, which means less than 50%. I suppose that most of the people are eagerly waiting the start of the game and will be more active after, but: what will we do if the situation remains the same?

We'll adjust the Constitution accordingly. That's why we are not ratifying it right now... if time shows that 50% would be too much, we can lower it to, say, 1/3 or choose a different mechanism.

	27-11-2002 22:15									#92
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Yes, I think you're right. Until then we will establish a max. duration for polls, and accept the results no matter how many people will vote. Then based on the average attendance value, we will modify the Constitution.

	28-11-2002 04:47									#93
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Wow im totaly confused on this whole thing(probably because i don't want to take hours to read all this stuff)
From what i have seen you guys have made a great constitution if you were running a contry, but this is not one. I have learned that with complicated constitutions and stuff it is more complicating to have fun which is our real purpose is it not. You got balancing of power executive branch blah blah blah. Why can't we make this whole thing simple.
The president plays the game, and everybody makes decisions no persons vote should hold anymore weight than anybody else. I know yo all have worked hard on this, but i think this is one thing that you should have put little efort into

	28-11-2002 05:13									#94
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quote: Originally posted by shadylookin Wow im totaly confused on this whole thing(probably because i don't want to take hours to read all this stuff) From what i have seen you guys have made a great constitution if you were running a contry, but this is not one. I have learned that with complicated constitutions and stuff it is more complicating to have fun which is our real purpose is it not. You got balancing of power executive branch blah blah blah. Why can't we make this whole thing simple. The president plays the game, and everybody makes decisions no persons vote should hold anymore weight than anybody else. I know yo all have worked hard on this, but i think this is one thing that you should have put little efort into

I suggest we hold a vote on this proposal...

Seriously, I can understand your point of of view, but we need some rules to play by. Without such rules, you would probably be surprised how much my idea of a demogame might differ from yours, or from Tiberius'... The whole constitution is there just to make sure that no persons vote should hold anymore weight than anybody else (your own words).

Besides, we have nothing to do until Sunday, so why not nit-picking on Magna Chartaginia...?

	28-11-2002 05:16									#95
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I'm also all for a simple constitution, which basically lays who does what. (that was the spirit of my short consttution some posts above)

	28-11-2002 05:20									#96
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i know we need some structure.

	28-11-2002 05:24									#97
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but there is no reason to complicate things beyond any comprehension

	28-11-2002 05:30									#98
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What do you think of this ? :

quote: I - The Wise (president) The Wise physically plays the game as per the wishes of the Ministers or the Senate. Should the orders not arrive in time, or should they be dangerous to the Legoland team because they're outdated, the Wise can act on his own. The Wise is elected every TBA by the Senate. One must have PtW to become Wise. At the beginning of his term, the Wise appoints a member of the team to replace him if he's absent. II - The advisors (ministers) Advisors give orders to the Wise in their specific fields. Advisors are elected every [TBA] by the Senate The Head Engineer is responsible for all worker moves The Military Advisor is responsible for all unit moves The Master Builder is responsible for cities : location of new cities, production, civil order. The Foreign Advisor keeps tracks of treaties. The Enlightened is responsible for research, tax sliders, and trading goods. III - Ambassadors Ambassadors deal directly with foreign countries. Ambassadors can negociate treaties. Ambassadors report to the Foreign Advisor. IV - The Senate Every member of the team is a member of the Senate The Senate can issue any order a minister could issue. The Senate can veto any decision from the Wise, the Advisors or the Ambassadors. However, decisions already applied in the game cannot be vetoed. Only the Senate can declare war, with a [TBA] majority. Only the Senate can amend the constitution with a [TBA] majority. All votes from the Senate apply once an absolute majority has been found, unless specified otherwise. Runoff polls will be made if necessary.

	28-11-2002 05:45									#99
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Thinking of it... as brief as possible sounds fine... I say, let's start playing as if the most recent Spiffor's draft (the one above this post) was in effect and see how it goes. Let's do our best to keep any added clauses just as brief.

Let's start with some TBAs:

President/Advisors elected every 10 turns.
Simple majority of ALL Senators (51%) needed to declare war or amend the Constitution..

	28-11-2002 05:48									#100
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ya thats great easy and it gives us structure

	28-11-2002 05:49									#101
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i was talking about Spiffor post in the above

	28-11-2002 05:50									#102
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i think the pres should serve more than 10turns a term
and i think it needs to be more than 51%

	28-11-2002 07:52									#103
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Term Periods: I think these should be based on real-time, not game turns; this way, people will know what length of time they're signing up for when they take a position.

Voting: I think we need a 51% majority for amendments, at least at first, to make sure it isn't too hard to tweak it. IMO, 51% is a problem for war; we're all fellow builders, and I think we can trust each other not to drag our nation into a senseless war. As far as poll minimums, I agree there should be no quorum (minimum number of voters); a 3-day poll period would be nice, but if we want this game to move fast, I think we should shorten it to 2

	28-11-2002 09:23									#104
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i think it should be at least 3/5

	28-11-2002 10:09									#105
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I think why people want it at 50% plus one vote because not a lot of people on team are active in this forum or vote in polls

	28-11-2002 11:51									#106
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quote: Originally posted by shadylookin Wow im totaly confused on this whole thing(probably because i don't want to take hours to read all this stuff) From what i have seen you guys have made a great constitution if you were running a contry, but this is not one. I have learned that with complicated constitutions and stuff it is more complicating to have fun which is our real purpose is it not.

Wrong. The fact that we want to have fun later, when the game starts, is exactly why we have to make a good Constitution. We need rules, because later I want to pay attention only to the game and not to discussions that could have been avoided.

quote: Why can't we make this whole thing simple.

It is simple. The fact that you don't comprehend it doesn't make it complicated. And btw, you are wellcomed anytime to make a better one.

Edited: You may want to go to the Civ3-Democracy Game forum, too read their Constitution. Here's the link:
Civ3-Democracy game Constitution thread
It is the result of playing for many month now, and it is much more detailed than ours (though I admit they have 92 members, and we know that more member means more trouble).

	28-11-2002 16:31									#107
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Term Periods: I'm for real-time terms, not game turns; say one month.

Votes:
1. For amendments and declaration of war: 50% participation, 66%+1 votes
2. Otherwise: 33% participation (for now, we can change it later) and 50%+1 votes

	28-11-2002 19:37									#108
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Using real time instead of game turns sounds like a good idea. Yes, I am all for it. One month, okay (will be easy to track, as the game starts on Dec 1).

Thinking of quora and needed majority, what about this:

Long (5-day?) polls/votes have no quorum (minimum number of votes) and are considered passed if 51% votes or more are "aye".

Shorter (3-day?) polls/votes have a quorum of 50% and are considered passed if 51% votes or more are "aye".

This way, for things that MUST be decided (either way), longer polls would be held (5 days should be enough to allow every member to vote on the subject). For regular agenda that needs to proceed QUICKLY and may be left to the Executives, if undecided, shorter polls would be held, but there would be a minimum number of votes required to make results of such a vote binding. If a particular vote ends up invalid due to too few votes, the Executives would be free to act as they see fit. Such a solution avoids deadlocks, while allowing regular members to project their will.

	28-11-2002 19:54									#109
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I'm beginning to see that this is all getting a bit too complicated for my liking.... If people don't vote then thats their problem. I say a simple majority should be enough.

	28-11-2002 20:45									#110
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quote: Originally posted by redstar1 I say a simple majority should be enough.

That would be perfectly fine with me if there is a fixed minimum poll duration (like 2 or 3 days). Do we have any members that will not be able to check at least every other day?

Eh... damn me... making it more complicated again.

The fact is that all the complicated clauses are basically being construed in order to prevent unfair conduct - like polls intentionally made very short (and thus easy to manipulate), for example.

Thinking of this and considering we all - presumably - came here to have fun and not to piss one another off, maybe we should really start with the simple majority principle (after all, it's the most natural solution). If it is not going to work, then some people will probably want to leave anyway...

Sorry to take back what I posted before (it was me who pointed out possible vote-related problems). I guess I focused too much on the "legal" aspects of the Constitution, forgetting of the spirit we all hope will prevail in the team.

I guess that should we really (for practical purposes, because of actual misconducts) need a Constitution tuned near to perfection, solving every possible what-if case in advance, I would probably quit and resort back to "despotic" single player games.

That said, I believe that it would be fine if we can clarify whatever may be unclear to any member of the team.

I, for one (running for the Foreign Advisor), would like to know, if the ambassadors are going to act upon instructions from F.A., or on their own. May be a stupid question, I admit, but I am somewhat puzzled by the description of the Foreign Advisor duties in the Constitution draft ("keeps track of treaties" - does that mean he is just some sort of an archivist?).

Another thing that is a bit unclear to me: how is the first turn going to be played? Do we (i.e. Jack) receive the savegame and have a chat or something to decide where to move the worker and whether to found a city immediately? Or will Jack play it as he sees fit?

	28-11-2002 22:04									#111
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all the first turn will be is finding new city and moving worker one tile over, You guys decided if you want to give me instructions or just happy if I do it myself. But if I get the game and no one has said nothing, I will have to play on my own. Just to make it clear to everyone.

	29-11-2002 04:53									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www all the first turn will be is finding new city and moving worker one tile over, You guys decided if you want to give me instructions or just happy if I do it myself. But if I get the game and no one has said nothing, I will have to play on my own. Just to make it clear to everyone.

Fair enough

	29-11-2002 11:19									#113
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack I, for one (running for the Foreign Advisor), would like to know, if the ambassadors are going to act upon instructions from F.A., or on their own. May be a stupid question, I admit, but I am somewhat puzzled by the description of the Foreign Advisor duties in the Constitution draft ("keeps track of treaties" - does that mean he is just some sort of an archivist?).

I'd find it logical that the Ambassadors should act upon the instructions from the FA. He coordinates the foreign policy, which IMHO means: gives instructions to ambassadors, keeps track of treaties (you must know what's happening, isn't it?), keeps track of foreign events (war has started between X and Y), negociates whith other teams when the ambassadors are unavailable, reports regularly to the President and/or Senate, gathers intelligence information on the request of the Senate, the President or one of the Ministers, and... I think this is it.

You see people, this is why we need the detailed Constitution. Don't give up now when we're almost ready with it!

	29-11-2002 11:26									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www all the first turn will be is finding new city and moving worker one tile over, You guys decided if you want to give me instructions or just happy if I do it myself. But if I get the game and no one has said nothing, I will have to play on my own. Just to make it clear to everyone.

I see. Well, Jack, what kind of a player you are? Never-move-your-first-settler, move-it-max-1-tile-over, or something else? Would you be able to post the initial screenshot prior to actually playing the turn? Maybe wait a while before playing it, so that if there are members online, they would get a chance to speak up? I am checking our forum more than once an hour... pitty it is not that active these days... and I will probably keep refreshing it all the time on Sunday...

Since the (early) research is to have a great importance (much greater than in the SP... at least I expect so), I would be seriously looking for a river bank or golden hill, if available within a 1-tile radius of our starting spot. maybe even within a 2-tile radius. Getting to Bronze Working ASAP is vital for rush defense, so getting as much gold as early as possible will be crucial.

	29-11-2002 11:30									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I'd find it logical that the Ambassadors should act upon the instructions from the FA. He coordinates the foreign policy, which IMHO means: gives instructions to ambassadors, keeps track of treaties (you must know what's happening, isn't it?), keeps track of foreign events (war has started between X and Y), negociates whith other teams when the ambassadors are unavailable, reports regularly to the President and/or Senate, gathers intelligence information on the request of the Senate, the President or one of the Ministers, and... I think this is it.

This is pretty much what I expected, good. If there is anyone having a different idea of what the F.A. is supposed to be in charge of, speak up, please. Otherwise, I will take it as set.

	29-11-2002 12:41									#116
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OK. This is it, an almost final draft. It is almost identical with Spiffor’s post, but I made some changes though. I tried to keep it as simple as possible. It is really not that complicated, but if you have no patience to read the whole thing, then read only section II and III. This is the most important part. The responsibilities' descriptions must be detailed!
----------------------

Magna Chartaginia

Preamble
We the people of Legoland seek to better the world around them through the development of our lands and the growth of our sciences. We are a peaceful people, but not a passive one. Our lands will be defended at any cost, and our troops are willing and able to march forth against any enemy that deigns to threaten us. The world can be a better place, and it is our job to make it so.

Article I: The citizens

Section 1: The Rights

As all the bricks in a foundation are equally important, so too are the citizens of Legoland. Every citizen carries rights and burdens of responsibility that are no greater, nor no less than any of their fellows. All speak with an equal voice, and no voice should go unheard. So long as a citizen stays involved with the affairs of the land, they may seek, or be appointed to, any office in the land. A civilization built on a foundation such as this shall no crumble from within, nor be toppled from without.

Section 2: The Responsibilities
It is every citizens duty to make known their thoughts on the state and future of our land. Only through open discussion can we find the proper path to choose from. It is also every citizen's duty to serve in the best interests of the land. A citizen must no willfully pass on information to our foes that would endanger our safety nor give away our secrets.

Article II : The executive branch

Section 1 : The President
- The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate. He requires an absolute majority of the votes to be elected. Runoff poll will be done if necessary.
- Only a member having PtW can run for presidence.
- The President physically plays the game, according to the wishes of the Ministers and Senate
- The President shall post a report of the game (and maybe a save?) to the Senate after every turn.
- When the wishes of the Ministers do not come to the President in time, or are harmful due to changes in game, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team.
- Should an ambassador be unable to negociate with another team, and the Foreign minister unavailable to take over him, the President must negociate directly with the other team.
- If the Vice President or any minister spot is vacant, then the President can appoint a new one to that spot, who will serve untill the next election.

Section 2 : The Vice President
- The VP appointed by the President from the Ministers
- One must have PtW to become VP
- When the President is unavailable, the Vice President replaces him.

Section 3 : The ministers
- The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
- There are 4 ministers: the Master Builder, the Military Architect, the Enlightened and the Foreign Advisor.
- The Master Builder (Domestic Minister) is responsible for managing all cities, their production queues, their citizens, and all of the workers and settlers. He is responsible for choosing sites for new cities, disbanding cities, and making rushed production requests.
- Should the Master Builder feel that his responsibilities are overwhelming, he can appoint a deputy minister, responsible for managing the workers, called the Head Engineer.
- The Military Architecht (Minister of Defense) shall be responsible for the movement of all military units, as well as long-term strategic plans.
- The Enlightened (Minister of Science and Economy) shall be responsible for managing sliders and selecting future courses of research. He is also responsible for keeping track of all trade treaties. He must initiate new trade treaties when they become available. New treaties must be approved by the Senate.
- The Foreign Advisor (Foreign Affairs Minister) coordinates the foreign policy of Legoland. He gives instructions to ambassadors, keeps track of treaties and foreign events. He must report regularly to the President and the Senate. Should any ambassador be unavailable, the FA shall take over his responsabilities. He is also responsible for gathering intelligence information on the request of the Senate, the President or one of the Ministers. High risk intelligence activities, that could result in declaration of war from other nations, must be approved by the Senate with simple majority vote. Should an ambassador be unavailable, the FM must take over his responsabilities.

Section 4 : Ambassadors
- Ambassadors should act upon the instructions of the FA and report directly to the FA
- Ambassadors deal directly with all other teams in the game.
- Ambassadors are primary ones who talk and negociate deals with other teams.

Article III : the Senate
- Every member of the Legoland team is a member of the Senate.
- Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.
- The Senate can issue any order that could be issued by a minister. This decision cannot be overruled by a member of the executive branch.
- The Senate can veto any decision coming from the Ministers or the President, with absolute majority. However, if such a decision has already been applied in the game, the veto has no effect.
- The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court. This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.

Article IV : The Supreme Court
- The supreme court shall consist of three judges, appointed by the President at the beginning of his term.
- If 2 out of 3 judges vote to hear a case, the case will be presented to the court for trial.
- The court's main responsibility is to deal with cases regarding constitutional interpretation, or cases with severe consequences (treason, abuse of office, etc.), or cases which the public is unable to settle.
- Any case rejected by the court may be settled by the citizenry.

Article V : Voting procedures
– In all of Legoland’s voting procedures/polls/elections, the option/candidate that receives the most votes is declared winner
- If any voting procedure ends with no clear majority the President breaks the tie.
- A poll is declared valid if it was open for at least [TBA] period or when at least [TBA] per cent of the Senate has voted in it.
- Should one of the options/candidates obtain at least [TBA] of the total possible votes before the end of the legal period, the poll is declared valid and can be closed.

Article VI : Amending the Consitution
- Any citizen can suggest an amendment to the Constitution
- Once a ammendment is drafted and supported by at least two other members of Legoland, it must be introduced to the Senate.
- The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes. At least half the Senate must be present during vote.


-----------------
Report of what I’ve added/changed:

- The President shall post a report of the game (and maybe a save?) to the Senate after every turn.
- The VP appointed by the President from the Ministers
- I merged the Head Engineer with the Master Builder (moving the workers is not a big deal, plus it must be done by somebody who know well what are the cities' needs)
- clarified a bit the FA’s and ambassadors responsabilities
- simplified voting procedures

Edited some typos.
Edited again to add the Head Enginner as a possible future Deputy Minister.

Last edited by Tiberius on 30-11-2002 at 23:31

	30-11-2002 01:23									#117
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Merging the Head Eng. and Master Builder is a good idea for the early game. We may want to seperate them later, but for now, it's a good change.

quote: - A poll is declared valid if it was open for at least [TBA] period or when at least [TBA] per cent of the Senate has voted in it.

Maybe change this to:

- A poll is declared valid if it was open for at least [TBA] period or when at least [TBA] per cent of the Senate has voted in it or when a majority of the senate has voted for one choice.

This would allow a high percentage to be required, while not binding polls in red tape if a clear majority of the team has voted one way.

	30-11-2002 02:14									#118
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What you're saying would be useful to close polls where an option was voted by the majority of the Senate. There's no point to keep them open until they expire if a majority was reached already. Sounds good.

	30-11-2002 03:50									#119
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Looks good Spiff, keep those Belgian horses in your head running.

	30-11-2002 23:09									#120
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I've edited the draft to allow for a future introduction of the Head Engineer.

quote: - Should the Master Builder feel that his responsibilities are overwhelming, he can appoint a deputy minister, responsible for managing the workers, called the Head Engineer.