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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:23
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Jack_www :
Yep, I've read that thread too, and I think we must make a more streamlined contitution. The spirit of the constitution we should have is IMHO :
- Ministers or Senate give orders.
- The Prez obeys these orders. If no orders are available, he decides. If the orders become outdated and dangerous because of it, he also decides.
To me, this will give enough speed to get things done quickly, and will remain democratic (the Senate can decide on any isue it wants if the issue can be foreseen).
The more I think of it, the more I think the High Council will bring more bad than good  , sorry Tiberius. If the powers of the high council was in the hands of the prez or VP, it would be much siimpler. As always : when one person decides, it takes much less time than when several people must be consulted.
I'll try to make a draft, which will be similar to Jack's in many points.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:23
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Here's a "verbose" draft I compiled from Jack's and Tiberius' drafts (it is derivated from Tiberius', but I added many things from Jack's).
All tweaks I've done are listed below
quote:
Preamble
We the people of Legoland seek to better the world around them through the development of our lands and the growth of our sciences. We are a peaceful people, but not a passive one. Our lands will be defended at any cost, and our troops are willing and able to march forth against any enemy that deigns to threaten us. The world can be a better place, and it is our job to make it so.
Article I: The citizens
Section 1: The Rights
As all the bricks in a foundation are equally important, so too are the citizens of Legoland. Ever citizen carries rights and burdens of responsibility that are no greater, nor no less than any of their fellows. All speak with an equal voice, and no voice should go unheard. So long as a citizen stays involved with the affairs of the land, they may seek, or be appointed to, any office in the land. A civilization built on a foundation such as this shall no crumble from within, nor be toppled from without.
Section 2: The Responsabilities
It is every citizens duty to make known their thoughts on the state and future of our land. Only through open discussion can we find the proper path to choose from. It is also every citizen's duty to serve in the best interests of the land. A citizen must no willfully pass on information to our foes that would endanger our safety nor give away our secrets.
Article II : The executive branch
Section 1 : The President
- The President is elected every [TBA] by the Senate. He requires an absolute majority of the votes to be elected. Runoff poll will be done if necessary.
- Only a member having PtW can run for presidence.
- The President physically plays the game, according to the wishes of the Ministers and Senate
- When the wishes of the Ministers do not come to the President in time, or are harmful due to changes in game, then the President can act on his/her own in the best interest of the Legoland team.
- Should an ambassador be unable to negociate with another team, and the Foreign minister unavailable to take over him, the President must negociate directly with the other team.
- If the Vice President or any minister spot is vacant, then the President can appoint a new one to that spot, who will serve untill the next election.
Section 2 : The Vice President
- The VP is [debate : elected or appointed ?] every [TBA]
- One must have PtW to become VP
- When the President is unavailable, the Vice President replaces him.
Section 3 : The ministers
- The ministers are elected by the Senate every [TBA].
- There are 5 ministers : the Head Engineer, the Master Builder, the Military Architect, the Enlightened and the Foreign Minister (to be renamed)
- The Head Engineer shall be responsible for movement of all workers and the improvement of lands.
- The Master Builder shall be responsible for planning of city production, as well as selecting suitable sites
for new cities. He is also responsible for keeping the citizens happy if possible, and to take care that law and order are applied in all of Legoland's cities.
- The Military Architecht shall be responsible for the movement of all military units, as well as long-term strategic plans.
- The Enlightened (Minister of Science and Economy) shall be responsible for managing sliders and selecting future courses of research. He is also responsible for keeping track of all trade treaties. He must initiate new trade treaties when they become available. New treaties must be approved by the Senate with simple majority vote.
- The Foreign Minister shall coordinate information from all ambassadors and keep track of treaties, etc. He shall negociate whith other teams when the ambassadors are unavailable. He is responsible for gathering intelligence information on the request of the Senate, the President or one of the Ministers. High risk intelligence activities, that could result in declaration of war from other nations, must be approved by the Senate with simple majority vote. Should an ambassador be unavailable, the FM must take over his responsabilities.
Section 4 : Ambassadors
- Ambassadors deal directly with all other teams in the game.
- Ambassadors are primary ones who talk and negociate deals with other teams.
- Ambassadors report directly to the Foreign Minister.
Article III : the Senate
- Every member of the Legoland team is a member of the Senate.
- Only the Senate can declare war to another country, with a majority of [TBA] of the votes.
- The Senate can issue any order that could be issued by a minister. This decision cannot be overruled by a member of the executive branch.
- The Senate can veto any decision coming from the Ministers or the President, with absolute majority. However, if such a decision has already been applied in the game, the veto has no effect.
- The Senate can remove any minister, the President, Vice President or Justices of Court.
This removal requires [TBA] of the senate to pass.
Article IV : The Supreme Court
- The supreme court shall consist of three judges, appointed by the President at the beginning of his term.
- If 2 out of 3 judges vote to hear a case, the case will be presented to the court for trial.
- The court's main responsibility is to deal with cases regarding constitutional interpretation, or cases with
severe consequences (treason, abuse of office, etc.), or cases which the public is unable to settle.
- Any case rejected by the court may be settled by the citizenry.
Article V : Voting procedures
- Any voting procedure, regarding any subject, in any institution of Legoland, requires a majority of 50% + 1 of the votes to be declared valid, if not specified otherwise.
- In situations with multiple choises vote procedures, the option/candidate with the most votes is declared winner, if not specified otherwise in the articles I to IV of the Constitution.
- If any voting procedure ends with no clear majority (50%-50% situations) the [debate : President or VP ?] breaks the tie.
- All members of the Executive are elected by the Senate and need a majority or most votes if they have more the two people running.
Article VI : Amending the Consitution
- Any citizen can suggest an amendment to the Constitution
- Once a ammendment is drafted and supported by at least two other members of Legoland, it must be introduced to the Senate.
- The ammendment will be considered adopted if it receives [TBA] of the votes. At least half the Senate must be present during vote. |
Tweaks :
Note : the "verbose" draft is derivated from Tiberius' draft. This explains why I removed things from Tiberius' draft, and why I added things from Jack_www's draft.
- removed the bit about runoff polls in the presidential election (Tiberius' draft)
- removed the bit about the Prez consulting the High Council (Tiberius' draft)
- removed : "can call for a mandatory government meeting when the situation requires it" (Tiberius' draft)
- removed the section about the High Council altogether (Tiberius' draft)
- removed occurences to the High Council in the VP section (Tiberius' draft)
- removed : "The Senate has power to approve or dissaprove treaties the President signs." (Tiberius' draft) Justification: Once a treaty has been signed, and our word has been given to another Civ, we shouldn't come back on it because of internal disagreements. If the Senate refuses the treaty before it's active, it can veto it like any other decision.
- replaced 66% majorities by [TBA] majorities.(Tiberius' draft) Justification: We should vote on these issues, to avoid the numbers ending not to be what we want.
- removed High Council occurences in the judiciary chapter.(Tiberius' draft)
- removed one of the 2 same paragraphs in the election chapter (both drafts)
- added "or are harmfull due to changes in game" (Jack's draft)
- added "If the Vice President or any minister spot is vacant, then the President can appoint a new one to that spot, who will serve untill the next election" (Jack's draft)
- kept minister description's from Tiberius' draft.
- added the Ambassadors section, but removed "Allthough the President can also when leaders on other team are involved in talks as well" (Jack's draft)
- removed " They can remove any minister, the President, Vice President, or Justices of Court if they have comiited High Crimes or have abondon their post. Once the Senate impeaches them by a majority then the Sumpreme Court hears the case and decides if enough evidence to kick the person out of the team." (Jack's draft). I assume we'll be prudent enough not to fire someone who does his work normally. If we accept to remove someone, it must be there is a good reason for it. It is useless to slow down the process even more.
- Judges are appointed by the Prez at the beginning of his term (Jack's draft)
- Removed "the court can remove citizenship if a Lego citizen is found to have commited high crimes against team" (both drafts). I feel such an important thing should be decided by all of us, rather than 3 of us.
- Kept Tiberius' paragraph about amending the constitution (better wording IMHO)
- added "All members of the Executive are elected by the Senate and need a majority or most votes if they have more the two people running." (Jack's draft)
Last edited by Spiffor on 25-11-2002 at 22:50
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:23
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Here's a straight-to-the-point "constitution" (better to talk about a structure) :
I - The Wise (president)
The Wise physically plays the game as per the wishes of the Ministers or the Senate.
Should the orders not arrive in time, or should they be dangerous to the Legoland team because they're outdated, the Wise can act on his own.
The Wise is elected every TBA by the Senate.
One must have PtW to become Wise.
At the beginning of his term, the Wise appoints a member of the team to replace him if he's absent.
II - The advisors (ministers)
Advisors give orders to the Wise in their specific fields.
Advisors are elected every [TBA] by the Senate
The Head Engineer is responsible for all worker moves
The Military Advisor is responsible for all unit moves
The Master Builder is responsible for cities : location of new cities, production, civil order.
The Foreign Advisor keeps tracks of treaties.
The Enlightened is responsible for research, tax sliders, and trading goods.
III - Ambassadors
Ambassadors deal directly with foreign countries.
Ambassadors can negociate treaties.
Ambassadors report to the Foreign Advisor.
IV - The Senate
Every member of the team is a member of the Senate
The Senate can issue any order a minister could issue.
The Senate can veto any decision from the Wise, the Advisors or the Ambassadors. However, decisions already applied in the game cannot be vetoed.
Only the Senate can declare war, with a [TBA] majority.
Only the Senate can amend the constitution with a [TBA] majority.
All votes from the Senate apply once an absolute majority has been found, unless specified otherwise. Runoff polls will be made if necessary.
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Jack_www
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I would like that Admendments be passed with 2/3 vote.
We dont want it too easy to change and everyone should be happy with the changes. Also I think that the VP should break the ties in Senate, the vp needs something to do. I would like to see if we could give the vp some more stuff to do, but maybe we can add that latter as an admendment so we can get this thing passed. I was also thinking that if the Senate votes to remove someone and they think they did it out of spite and not because they did something wrong they could appeal to the Supreme Court?? You may think that this might not be neccassary, but I think it would make a lot of people feel better if they are the ones getting kicked out that they can voice their odjections.
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:23
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Again, why not have the VP fill in for a missing minister? That would give the VP something to do.
Also, if we're going to have judges, shouldn't they be on a rotating basis, rather than having a whole new court appointed by one prez? The SP game uses rotation, and I think it's a good idea.
With three judges, initially one would hold office for 1 term, the next for 2 terms, and the third for 3 terms. After these initial terms, each seat would rotate every 3 terms. This way, the court isn't determined by any one president except for the first term. (This system could be thrown off a little if a judge has to resign, but even then it would be on a semi-rotational basis.) Also, new members of the court would be able to learn from those who have been around a little longer.
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Jack_www
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Thats a good idea about court rotation. Should have thought about that.
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
I have some ideas for the Foreign Minister's title.
I was playing with some latin words, and here it is what I've found:
- Pax Constructor (pax=peace, treaty; constructor is not latin  )
- Pactum Barbaricus  (pactum=agreement, pact, treaty)
- Fides Externus (fides=word of honor, promise)
- Master Orator (speaker, envoy, spokesman)
- Opus affinitas (opus=builder; affinitas=relationship, neighborhood)
or any other combination you like. |
Why cant we have simple names, like foreign minister and President. These names I have no idea what they are for. Lets make things simple easy to understand.
I would like President to be name President, not the wise or what ever else. Just my opion.
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
II - The advisors (ministers)
Advisors give orders to the Wise in their specific fields.
Advisors are elected every [TBA] by the Senate
The Head Engineer is responsible for all worker moves
The Military Advisor is responsible for all unit moves
The Master Builder is responsible for cities : location of new cities, production, civil order.
The Foreign Advisor keeps tracks of treaties.
The Enlightened is responsible for research, tax sliders, and trading goods.
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These names I think are good since when you read them you get an idea for what they are in charge of.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
Our Constitution must have a name, right? I have a brilliant (IMHO) idea:
Magna Chartaginia !!! |
Yup! Cool! I love that! 
OK, I have RTF Constitution draft(s) and here is my two cents:
Technically, there is an important thing missing. How long are polls supposed to remain open? I mean, lots of things require "voting" (decided by plain majority of the votes), which is just a different name for a poll. We should - in advance - decide on what the standard length of a poll will be. A poll too short might easily be abused to gain "majority of votes" in cases of "conspirations", while polls too long would render the voting itself uneffective. Three days seem reasonable to me... but the main thing is to include a set length. It may save us lots of arguments in the future...
Another vote-related problem is that there should be a minimum number of votes required for a vote to be considered valid. Say, I post a poll about moving our worker to NE instead of E, nobody cares, only three people vote, one of them being myself, another one the Head Engineer, and then one more citizen... the result would be binding for the Head Engineer anyway, which does not seem right to me. Do you think that requiring at least 50% of the citizens to vote for a vote to be valid would be too much?
I do agree with Jack that we should keep the simple, descriptive names for the positions. I feel no need to keep a vocabulary...
Running for the Foreign Minister, I am somewhat uncertain about his relations with the ambassadors. Am I correct assuming ambassadors act upon instructions or along guidelines provided by the Foreign Minister?
@Jack: I believe that the system of checks and balances is rather specific to the representative democracy. The direct democracy, which we can afford thanks to the small number of our citizens, needs much less of them, as basically anything can be decided very quickly "by the people".
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
Yup! Cool! I love that!
OK, I have RTF Constitution draft(s) and here is my two cents:
Technically, there is an important thing missing. How long are polls supposed to remain open? I mean, lots of things require "voting" (decided by plain majority of the votes), which is just a different name for a poll. We should - in advance - decide on what the standard length of a poll will be. A poll too short might easily be abused to gain "majority of votes" in cases of "conspirations", while polls too long would render the voting itself uneffective. Three days seem reasonable to me... but the main thing is to include a set length. It may save us lots of arguments in the future...
Another vote-related problem is that there should be a minimum number of votes required for a vote to be considered valid. Say, I post a poll about moving our worker to NE instead of E, nobody cares, only three people vote, one of them being myself, another one the Head Engineer, and then one more citizen... the result would be binding for the Head Engineer anyway, which does not seem right to me. Do you think that requiring at least 50% of the citizens to vote for a vote to be valid would be too much?
I do agree with Jack that we should keep the simple, descriptive names for the positions. I feel no need to keep a vocabulary...
Running for the Foreign Minister, I am somewhat uncertain about his relations with the ambassadors. Am I correct assuming ambassadors act upon instructions or along guidelines provided by the Foreign Minister?
@Jack: I believe that the system of checks and balances is rather specific to the representative democracy. The direct democracy, which we can afford thanks to the small number of our citizens, needs much less of them, as basically anything can be decided very quickly "by the people". |
Well at least in some of my drafts I included a part that said at least half the senate had to vote on a matter. If it is not in this one we should put it in. I also think that your poll time limit idea is a good one.
Also Just so you know I have already droped the checks and balances thing already.
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
Technically, there is an important thing missing. How long are polls supposed to remain open? I mean, lots of things require "voting" (decided by plain majority of the votes), which is just a different name for a poll. We should - in advance - decide on what the standard length of a poll will be. A poll too short might easily be abused to gain "majority of votes" in cases of "conspirations", while polls too long would render the voting itself uneffective. Three days seem reasonable to me... but the main thing is to include a set length. It may save us lots of arguments in the future...
Another vote-related problem is that there should be a minimum number of votes required for a vote to be considered valid. Say, I post a poll about moving our worker to NE instead of E, nobody cares, only three people vote, one of them being myself, another one the Head Engineer, and then one more citizen... the result would be binding for the Head Engineer anyway, which does not seem right to me. Do you think that requiring at least 50% of the citizens to vote for a vote to be valid would be too much?
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Good observations. We already have a section about voting procedures so we could extend it with: min/standard/max length for polls, minimum number of votes required to validate the vote (wasn't this already included in my draft? Spiffor, did you remove it?)
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25-11-2002 11:38
) for reference (the Supreme Court needs it!), and always keep a "straight-to-the-point" version for easier understanding (and for the lasy one 
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