22-11-2002 15:40									#1
	Economic Scholia Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Same questions and issues from the Tactical Scholia are pertanent here in the Economic Scholia.

1.) How will the Economicists organize themselves?
2.) How will decisions be made?
3.) Who will make those decisions?
4.) What issues need to be addressed economically when the game starts?
5.) Shall the Chief Economic minister be in charge of not just the luxury slider, but also building queue's, city improvements, tile improvements, etc?

We are increasingly short on time, and I fear that 2/3 of the Scholia are not ready to begin yet, as no clear guidelines for the Chief's or the members have been laid down.

	22-11-2002 15:42									#2
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alexman
Arrian
asleepathewheel
FrustratedPoet
Randolph
Sir Ralph
Velociryx

This is your time to shine guys. Good luck.

	22-11-2002 17:18									#3
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Humm.. I was thinking about making one (or a few) thread(s) for the ES, but I thought I'd wait for the "chief" thing to conclude (whether in ended up being me or someone else). But I suppose we might as well start getting this under way. I'm going to think about this for a little while and post more later.

	22-11-2002 17:35									#4
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I think, the leader of the economist shall manage both sliders (science and luxury) and manage city build queues and public works, or at least give the Grand Poobah directives about build priorities.

And my candidate is alexman.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, that he can have as many deputies for the single tasks as he needs.

Last edited by Sir Ralph on 22-11-2002 at 17:43

	22-11-2002 19:58									#5
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I think the economists should deal with terrain improvement (worker orders), but I'm thinking that city builds should be a cooperative decision between the Econ chief and the Poobah.

Citizen allocation (which tiles we work) I think falls within our jurisdiction. Left to its own, the AI will put our citizens on the wrong tiles far too often for my comfort.

The immediate issues to be dealt with are the initial worker orders and citizen allocation. That totally depends on the start location, of course, but the economists need to be on the ball early because those initial choices can save turns.

As for the chief (or in my view, the facilitator), it doesn't really matter to me. Randolph, alexman, whomever is willing to put in the effort.

-Arrian

	22-11-2002 20:44									#6
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If Alexman is willing to be the econ chief he's more than welcome to be

1. There will obviously have to be a vice-minister (vice-chief sounds weird to me). If the members would like we could break tasks down into deputies tasks that’s fine, but as far as I'm concerned we could just have an undifferentiated group.

2. I see issues being resolved 90+% by discussion with the occasional "real disagreement" being decided by either a poll or decision by the chief (depended on the level of importance, if anyone wants a poll there should be one).

3. I think this is covered in 2

4.
a. What level to start the slider at (once we build a city)
b. With the tactical schola we need to decide what to build in our city (of our many choices )
c. Worker orders
d. What tech to research (BW should like the consensus at this point)
d. Chief and Vice positions, and any deputies.

5. All areas are of course in the end jointly decided, no schola should be operating in a vacuum. The economy being the foundation of the empire will obviously affect other schola's operations more than their operations will affect the jurisdiction of the eonomic schola, other scholas will thus need more say in economic decisions than vice versa. Therefore don't interpret these as "grand dictator of ____".
a. City production (tactical will of course decide what units to build, and will help decide how many units / amount resources put towards military)
b. Sliders.
c. Tech choices: this is obviously a very joint decision, but if one schola is to have the final say it should be the economic schola.
d. City placement
e. Worker actions

There may be more

	23-11-2002 03:41									#7
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Glad I could help get you guys on your feet.

	26-11-2002 00:20									#8
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It appears that nbarclay will be our econ chief.



No offense to anyone else, but from reading some of Nathan's AAR (after action reports) for AU games and such, I definitely got the impression that he knows what he's doing when it comes to early game micromanagement.



-Arrian

	26-11-2002 11:26									#9
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There are three main thrusts to my typical early-game economic policy. One should work fine in multiplayer, one could be suicidal with the wrong neighbor, and one would be a bit problematical.

The one that will almost certainly work is cranking up the luxury slider as much as we need to to get core city sizes up where we want them. A civ with a high luxury slider setting can have significantly higher production than a similar civ that uses a lower luxury slider setting. Note especially that with the right settings, a capital or nearby city on a river can be a production powerhouse even in the ancient era.

The one that could be suicidal in this game is building almost no military units early. Against AIs, I can get away with it almost all the time as long as my size suggests a lot of latent power, but I wouldn't try it against a human with even an ounce of warmongering in his blood.

The one that is problematical is building an early granary or two to create one or two settler pumps. Normally, more often than not these days, I'll research Pottery right off the bat (assuming I'm not expansionist) and build my first granary before my first settler. But against human opponents, we probably need to get more warriors out exploring earlier than I usually do in SP, and researching military techs early is more important. Both of those factors would interfere with plans for early granaries.

Nathan

	26-11-2002 22:22									#10
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Yeah, I don't see that any early granary will be viable, EXCEPT under the right circumstances. If we don't have a river or lake to start, I can't imagine it being worthwhile. Plus, there are other techs we really need ASAP. Pretty much everybody agrees that BW is a must-have.

One thing I often do when playing an industrious civ is chop down some trees early on for the 10 shields. If there is some forest next to our capitol and we don't have a lot of food, we could chop to help the granary along, provided we get pottery somehow (hut?).

To be honest, discussing strategy is tough without knowing the lay of the land. I know we want to have some basic scenarios covered for the initial 10-turn rush of playing, but there are a lot of hypotheticals out there.

-Arrian

	26-11-2002 22:35									#11
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What kind of say will the Tactical scholia have in military unit production (and other stuff, like Barracks)? I suggest some sort of transfer of power from Economic to Tactical during wartime, although I'm not thinking of something as drastic as this sounds. For example: "we need approximately 15 Horsemen and 5 Spearmen for our next campaign (...please!)".


Dominae

	26-11-2002 22:39									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae What kind of say will the Tactical scholia have in military unit production (and other stuff, like Barracks)? I suggest some sort of transfer of power from Economic to Tactical during wartime, although I'm not thinking of something as drastic as this sounds.

Clearly Tactical and Econ will need to work together very closely, especially during war, but remember that the membership for these two schools is almost identical. Since many team members are in both these schools then any conflicts over build queues should be averted.

	26-11-2002 22:53									#13
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My thoughts exactly, FP. The two scholias have very similar membership, and any disputes that do arise ought to be settled by NYE.

Early on, it will be pretty simple: we need exploring warriors, settlers and units to protect them. Later, we need temples, barracks and more units, both defensive and offensive (WCs). There will be waxing and waning of each scholia's influence over the build orders depending on our available techs. Once we get say... currency, I think everyone will agree to interrupt military production in favor of marketplaces unless we are in serious danger of being defeated in a war.

-Arrian

	26-11-2002 22:57									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The two scholias have very similar membership, and any disputes that do arise ought to be settled by NYE.

My question arises from the fact that I'm one of the weirdos that didn't pick those two Scholias (I'm Diplomatic and Tactical). But I agree that, in the early-game, things should run pretty smooth.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Once we get say... currency, I think everyone will agree to interrupt military production in favor of marketplaces unless we are in serious danger of being defeated in a war.

Actually, depending on our current diplomatic situation, I believe this will be a major point of contention.


Dominae

	26-11-2002 23:02									#15
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As I get it, schola's have a sort of brainstorming function. They don't make the actual decission, I.E. they advise.

btw: is anyone in both the
diplo & economic schola??

	26-11-2002 23:25									#16
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Yup, I believe ManicStarSeed signed up for those two.


Dominae

	05-12-2002 20:28									#17
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Rather than discussing worker jobs/citizen allocation/build queue further in the "Turn 2" thread, I think this is the place for it.

I think it is relatively safe to say we're ok with the following for now (citizen reallocation bolded because it's easy enough to forget about):

T1: move settler & worker *DONE*
T2: build city, begin chop, allocate citizen to forest fur, build warrior. *DONE*
T3: 1f, 3s *DONE*
T4: 2f, 6s
T5: 3f, 9s, switch citizen to grassland tile.
T6: 5f, warrior complete, build another.
T7: 7f, warrior complete (chopping done), order another, begin irrigation
T8: 9f, 1s. Switch citizen to fur tile.
T9: 11f, 4s. Irrigation done, move to next fur
T10: 13f, 7s. Begin chop
T11: 15f, warrior complete.

After that, there is the question of barracks or temple, or perhaps even granary if we are lucky enough to get pottery from a hut. Things will become clearer as our warriors uncover some more of the map.

So NYE has the glorious duty of pressing "enter" on turn 4, and need only switch the citizen allocation on turn 5 prior to again pressing enter. Things will get slightly more interesting on after turn 6, when we actually have a unit to explore with.

-Arrian

	05-12-2002 20:40									#18
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yep, by turn 8 we'll be exploring with 2 warriors, which should give us some nice screenies to pour over and analyse.

the game is moving at a reasonable speed now, which is nice.

	05-12-2002 20:49									#19
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quote: the game is moving at a reasonable speed now, which is nice.

I knew what I was getting into, I guess, but THIS is reasonable speed?

-Arrian

	05-12-2002 20:54									#20
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I'm afraid so, yes. The save has been passed on 6 or 7 times in the last 48 hours (since we finally decided to go back and correct the errors in the save file).
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=69529
It ain't gonna get any better than that.

Consider that the 'official' rules are that each team has 24 hours with the save file for discussion and play. From that POV things have moved fast so far.
Obviously at the moment we don't need 24 hours, but the time when we will need that much time is not too far off....

/edit: actually, starting from when NYE re-played our 2nd turn (2 days ago) the save has moved 9 times.

Last edited by FrustratedPoet on 05-12-2002 at 21:01

	05-12-2002 22:12									#21
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Arrian and Alexman, thanks for gaming out the starting strategy to make sure we have it exactly right.

	05-12-2002 22:21									#22
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Just curious: do you guys do 20-turn "forecast analyses" in your SP games too? Even when playing OCC, the thought never even occurred to me...


Dominae

	05-12-2002 22:36									#23
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I must say that I am very impressed with the debate that led to the finalization of the build queue. The way this scholia has put so much thought into the little details in order to come up with the most optimal queue is very impressive, even admirable.
Way to go!

	06-12-2002 01:37									#24
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@Dominae;

No, not really, I do some shield counting from time to
time, to make sure I don't waste too many,
but that's it.
(not really necessairy against the AI)

But you guys are doing a great job , and in this
MP very usefull too.

	06-12-2002 02:36									#25
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Arrian and Alexman, thanks for gaming out the starting strategy to make sure we have it exactly right.

Third that.

	06-12-2002 02:52									#26
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Yes I am impressed as well, the economic scholers are taking real good care of our nation. Wasn't too sure how it would all be taken care of before the game started, but watching this thread I've become proud of the people here.

	06-12-2002 02:59									#27
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one more


Can't wait till I have more time to think about this stuff.

	06-12-2002 06:40									#28
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I definitely have never paid this much attention to detail in worker action/build queues. In SP it isn't nearly as important, and you just don't have time to do it, really. I tend to play very fast, and I'm not going to spend hours planning to shave a turn off of a particular activity.

One thing we have here, though, is an abundance of time. Given that, I figured we ought to use it to optimize things as best we can. As the game progresses, we may or may not keep up this level of planning and detail. We'll see. Maybe as we build more cities we can assign people to optimize each city's development.

One thing is certain: now that I'm thinking about this stuff, I'm paying more attention to it in my SP games. I doubt I'll ever take it to this extreme, but I may be able to be a little more efficient in the early game due to our discussions here.

-Arrian

	06-12-2002 06:58									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian One thing is certain: now that I'm thinking about this stuff, I'm paying more attention to it in my SP games. I doubt I'll ever take it to this extreme, but I may be able to be a little more efficient in the early game due to our discussions here.

I thought this to be one of the major advantages of this demogame... to learn. I have to say, you two did a wonderful job when planning these first turns (and don't stop now!), but intuitively, much of this gets done in SP games as well. But, there are differences: I use my first worker for chopping forests as well, but if I see I will end chopping 1 turn too early, I just hit space once too often. With this kind of planning, the worker is used to its most efficient point, which is of course a lot better...

Keep it up

DeepO

	08-12-2002 01:15									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Rather than discussing worker jobs/citizen allocation/build queue further in the "Turn 2" thread, I think this is the place for it. I think it is relatively safe to say we're ok with the following for now (citizen reallocation bolded because it's easy enough to forget about): T1: move settler & worker *DONE* T2: build city, begin chop, allocate citizen to forest fur, build warrior. *DONE* T3: 1f, 3s *DONE* T4: 2f, 6s T5: 3f, 9s, switch citizen to grassland tile. T6: 5f, warrior complete, build another. T7: 7f, warrior complete (chopping done), order another, begin irrigation T8: 9f, 1s. Switch citizen to fur tile. T9: 11f, 4s. Irrigation done, move to next fur T10: 13f, 7s. Begin chop T11: 15f, warrior complete. After that, there is the question of barracks or temple, or perhaps even granary if we are lucky enough to get pottery from a hut. Things will become clearer as our warriors uncover some more of the map. So NYE has the glorious duty of pressing "enter" on turn 4, and need only switch the citizen allocation on turn 5 prior to again pressing enter. Things will get slightly more interesting on after turn 6, when we actually have a unit to explore with. -Arrian

Man, that is EFFICIENT. Good work.