23-11-2002 00:35									#31
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Even if the dems. had passed their own version, then they would have had to negotiate with the House. Notice the vast difference in plans: the Senate 5Billion, the House 900 Million, and with many restrictions. How do we reconcile those two?

Both are guilty, but the next congress will be far less likely to go much beyond the House measure, which will do far less to help than what the dem. senate propossed (if late).

I don't think the economy will get better: not only will many people lose beneits and thus cut spending, but many states face collapsing budgets, which will mean big cuts in state spending, lay-offs of state workers, and tax hikes to meet the budget gaps, all of which, i think, will put downward pressure on consumer spending while business is unlikely to kick in their spending (still have overcapacity) and the worthwhileness of further rate cuts will be minimal, as the public is already saddled with huge debt. I mean, who's left who has yet to refinance? Or buy a car with the 0 financing deal that have been out there for months?

	23-11-2002 00:37									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I need to refinance my student loans.

	23-11-2002 00:39									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I guess my question is why should the government extend unemployment benefits in the first place - or have them at all? I don't see this as an evil act, because if they did it, they would simply be forcing the average taxpayer to pay even more out of his already incredibly taxed income, and THAT would be wrong.

Uh, Davy-wavy, you might want to get out and see how da big ol' world works before you spout your knee-jerk ideological pablum.

The simple answer to your rhetorical question is the vast majority of voters don't give a dead rat's ass about your philosophy of government, and they elect officials who are more responsive to what they want.

For the details of why you should figure out how that big ol' world out there works:

(a) Employers pay both federal and state unemployment taxes. Nobody else pays them.

(b) The amounts they pay are trivial. (typically $252.80 per employee per year for state unemployment insurance, and $56.00 per employee per year for FUTA.) I'm an employer. I pay it, and it's nothing compared to the rest of my costs of doing business.

(c) The money from both state and Federal unemployment taxes is deposited in trust funds to be used solely for unemployment benefits.

(d) Despite the low level of funding per employee per year, these trust funds are rolling in dough. The feds have $25 billion, last I heard, the state of California has about 5 billion.

(e) In just about every year, both Federal and state trust funds run positive balances, so they are in no danger of running low of money.

(f) Even from an employer's perspective, I'd rather pay the trivial amount of tax and have people between jobs be at least semi-liquid (i.e. spending money and circulating it in the economy, not with their head in a bottle.)

Oh, and Floyd: If you wonder why people don't "debate" points or bother in depth with your posts, look in the mirror.

Far more often than not, you're more concerned with spouting your ideology than with understanding the factual basis underlying any issue - just like this "if your gonna argue blah blah blah entitles you to any of my money, when you've never paid a dime of ****ing unemployment tax anywhere, at any time.

Nobody takes a factually ignorant ideologue seriously.

JT's point wasn't condescending at all. There's this real live thing in the world called "experience." The fact that you can type and rant doesn't mean your point of view has any relevance or credibility, any more than if you were an eight year old. In general (with the rare exception of the 30 year old ****up trust fund kid still living off daddy's estate), people who've been adults for a while know more about how that world works than people who haven't. Don't like it? TFB, that's the way things are.

	23-11-2002 00:41									#34
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yes... there is a significant difference between the two bills. But it's the Dems who said... POLITICS TIME, it's time to screw the unemployed and give them no money at all while we go home to enjoy the holidays. It's not important enough for us to get some kind of comprimise in place. Tough luck to those that will lose their unemployment insurance while we go on a paid vacation. Don't worry folks, we will discuss it again after our paid vacation... oh, while you are getting screwed in the mean time.

	23-11-2002 00:49									#35
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Was there any motion in the senate to take the bill into joint committee by either party?

Republicans in the senate sure as hell wouldn't put one on the floor with any other bill, with a pending change in majority next session, and they have filibuster power.

Why the hell should the house bill get preference because they voted it out first? Hell, when bills come out of each house separately, the house votes out most bills first before the senate, because of the different internal rules in the two bodies. "We got there first so you should pick our version" has never been a basis for resolving different version of bills before, why should this be an exception?

Both sides played politics, and both sides ****ed over the unemployed. Especially when you consider the worth of the FUTA trust fund, the reluctance to use it is inexcusable.

	23-11-2002 00:52									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

No one hires during December?

You could work at nearly any retailer during the holidays. Sure it might not be for long, but at least you'll make some cash.

	23-11-2002 00:53									#37
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Any bill about spending has to come out of the House first. That's the Constitution. The Senate often passes differing versions, and then the two sides come together to negotiate. MtG is right, both sides screwed us.

	23-11-2002 00:54									#38
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Just to put things in persepctive, this year's unemployment rate looks like it will come in at about 5.7 percent, up from 4.X percent last year. In the last recession, which was very mild, unemployment was 5.7 percent or more for the years 1991-1994 inclusive. Prior to that, unemployment was 5.7 percent or more for thirteen consecutive years, from 1975-1987 inclusive. This period included three major recessions, and a major restructuring of the US economy. The current 5.7 percent is still pretty low by historical standards. The unemployment funds are well financed because the economy has been good for a long time. No reason we cant pay out some benefits for people who need them.

	23-11-2002 00:55									#39
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by DaShi No one hires during December?

Actually, by this point, most retailers have hired their Xmas help. I have nibble on something, but I don't want to say anything for fear of jynxing it (not that I'm superstitious )

	23-11-2002 00:59									#40
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Any bill about spending has to come out of the House first. That's the Constitution. The Senate often passes differing versions, and then the two sides come together to negotiate. MtG is right, both sides screwed us.

Only budget bills, IIRC. 98% of bills are about spending in some form or another.

	23-11-2002 01:00									#41
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara both sides screwed us.

So should I change the title of this thread in the name of fairness

	23-11-2002 01:00									#42
	Got spare money?

The nineties were definately a historic low for unemployment, seeing as the Feds had a policy of maintaining a 5%-6% unemployment rate to keep inflation down. 5.7% isn't really that bad.

But that's small comfort when you're looking down the barrel of a shotgun.

	23-11-2002 01:01									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ming So should I change the title of this thread in the name of fairness

I did write that earlier. Change Republican to Congressional.

	23-11-2002 01:05									#44
	Put an end to popups!

Floyd, whatever you think of unemployment benefits from the government, seeing as how the taxes have already been payes and the money has already been taken for them, and that money is now in trust funds, what is wrong with using the money what it was intended for?

	23-11-2002 01:05									#45
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Again, another whole thread misrepresentating the right-wing posted by an inherently misled leftist. I have nothing to say to you, chegitz.

	23-11-2002 01:08									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Then why did you?

	23-11-2002 01:10									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This from the bowels of Jimmytrick:

quote: Dang, I sound like a Democrat or something.

Actually, you sound like a republican. Believe it or Not. Exactly like I me.

Sh** or get off the pot, eh..

The reason so many ppl are on unemployment right now, and the reason they are demanding extensions, is because they (the unemployed) all feel (a generalization) that they are too good to take those jobs that we (those who would clean a toilet) have been forced to take in order to support our families, pay our bills, and hopefully have enough money to buy a Swanson's T.V. Dinner for the whole gang at Christmas.

The harsh reality of it is, there are jobs to be had, and they do not pay enough so that the new Mercades won't get repo'd. Oh well!! Sucks for you, that's my attitude. You lived above your means for way too long, and now you must pay.

I personally, live below my means so much, that if I was fired today I would not have to make a change in my life style for at least 1 year, and I wouldn't even have to go on unemployment. And, so you know I don't get paid a whole lot.

You reap what you sew. I am sorry that all the pseudo-rich yuppies with ties in Washington didn't get what they want. Wha! Sell your damn house for what's worth, trade in your mercades for a Honda, and I guess the day at Spago's with have to be cancled.

I am sure this is a generalization, but I live in the heart of the Silicon Valley, and I see it. Heck, my negihbor is on unemployment, hasn't looked for a job in 6 months, just bought a Harley, and has the nerves to complain that he can't get unemployment until his Compensation Package runs out. What a schmuk.

It is ppl like this that really give the ppl who need a job, and need unemployment to help them, a bad name.

The underlining point is that unemployment insurance is just way too easy to exploit, and is therefore a bad system that should be eliminated all together.

	23-11-2002 01:14									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I did write that earlier. Change Republican to Congressional.

Uhhh... no... you said.

quote: And yes, I should have said Evil Congressional Bastards. Both groups are responsible for this, but the Republicans are being more stingy.

You didn't say to change it... and you also continue to cast the Republicans as the more evil of the two.

But that's ok... I'll change it for you now that you have seen the light

	23-11-2002 01:16									#49
	Got spare money?

Chill out Ming.

	23-11-2002 01:35									#50
	Suffering from ads?

Japher I make my own bread to cut down on costs. I'm acclimating to a 65 degree apartment to cut on heating costs. We don't go out to eat. I haven't paid the long distance bill since July, electricity and phone are both behind (but in no danger of being cut off). Thankfully I had decided to get credit card insurance, which has taken over the payments while I'm laid off.

The problem isn't that I won't take work that is "beneath me." I already tried to do that. I'm overqualified. Lesser jobs won't take me because they know I won't be happy and won't stay and would bolt as soon as something in my career opened up.

Furthermore, while you are on unemployment, you are required to look for work. And I do, on all the job sites. I've sent out hundreds of resumes. The problem is right now, no one wants someone from outside the area. I've seen positions sit open for more than six months, simply because they don't want to pay for relocation, even though I'm willing to pay that out of my own pocket).

I know it's not me, (though it might have been my resume, which had gotten up to four pages before I did some culling last week). When I redid my resume last year, I was vaulted up to the final list in half a dozen positions. It's just a bad market in general, and specifically where I live.

I went from making $1000 a week to $275 a week, so there's no question that I've had to make adjustments. I'm not payng old debts, I'm not buying a care, I'm not going out to eat, don't have a cell phone, not going to see family for Thanksgiving (fortunately Bunnygrrl's mom sent us money to fly home for Xmas or we'd be staying her for Xmas too).

	23-11-2002 01:36									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Then why did you?

To make myself look good.

I also wanted to emphasis I am sick and tired of people mispresentating the other side on this forum.

	23-11-2002 01:38									#52
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Fez To make myself look good.

Mission...failed.

	23-11-2002 01:40									#53
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Che, I wasn't attacking you nor anyone here on the board. I have seen your rants on these boards about your situation and am sorry that you are going through some hard times.

My attack was on the general public. I was just trying to present a valid explination for my views on unemployment.

Most people have to admit:

quote: It is ppl like this (lazy F's) that really give the ppl who need a job, and need unemployment to help them, a bad name.

This is my address:

quote: The underlining point is that unemployment insurance is just way too easy to exploit, and is therefore a bad system that should be eliminated all together.

What kind of work are you in?

	23-11-2002 01:42									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Fez and Boris are funny

	23-11-2002 01:42									#55
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Japher What kind of work are you in?

web design

	23-11-2002 01:44									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Mission...failed.

Uh no. You failed.

	23-11-2002 01:45									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Japher The underlining point is that unemployment insurance is just way too easy to exploit, and is therefore a bad system that should be eliminated all together.

Not so easy. First you have to fired without cause or laid off. Then you have to look for work every week. They check. Then they make you jump through hoops. It's also sort of self selecting. After all, if you're the kinda person who would try and scam unemployment, you're also the kind of person who gets fired with cause.

	23-11-2002 02:00									#58
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Or just follow the USSR (Commie) system: No unemployment. Those who were unemployed were either thrown into gulags or murdered.

Now that was a mean thing to say! Sorry Chegitz... I just had to...

	23-11-2002 02:00									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara But that's small comfort when you're looking down the barrel of a shotgun.

Understood.

edit:

Fez, next time you get the urge to post something like that, please ask yourself if any good will come of what you say.

	23-11-2002 02:07									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Fez To make myself look good. I also wanted to emphasis I am sick and tired of people mispresentating the other side on this forum.

Fez, I don't know about you, but I sense the political pendulum slowly swinging to the right in this forum. Che, for example, is almost in the center despite his credentials.