04-12-2002 12:25									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Hurricane So I do not see it as at all impossible that Finland would have stayed independent had not Soviet tried to take it in 1939.

It was not impossible, but realistically it was rather improbable.

	04-12-2002 12:27									#182
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BTW, does someone know what were the relations between the USSR and Finland prior to the Winter War?

	04-12-2002 16:08									#183
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond BTW, does someone know what were the relations between the USSR and Finland prior to the Winter War?

Ever since Finland's independence from Russia in 1917, relations had been frosty. Finland had unsuccessfully tried to form alliances with the Baltic countries and Poland during the 20s, but after that instead tried to focus on the Nordic countries and to become friends with Soviet. In 1932, a non-aggression treaty was signed between Russia and Finland, and in 1934 this was extended with 10 years (that is, until 1944).

Of course, this treaty was worth nothing after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed.

	04-12-2002 16:39									#184
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By the way, here is a very good link about the situation (longish): http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/before.html

Here are some snips which relate to this thread:

quote: Was Finland, with its Social Democrat-Centre government and an official foreign policy that had stressed Nordic neutrality since 1935, in fact politically inclined towards Germany? The alleged influence of Germany over Finland has been convincingly shown (by Hiedanniemi, Julkunen and Backlund) to be a myth. The same applies to Finnish public opinion. As pointed out by Vesa Vares in his study of the Finnish press in the 1930s, there cannot be the slightest doubt that the general attitude towards Germany was overwhelmingly negative. Wipert von Blücher, German ambassador to Finland at the time, and his superior drew exactly the same conclusion. The influence of the extreme Right on Finnish policy in the 1930s, in the final years of the decade in particular, was entirely marginal. It was never represented in the Government during peacetime and only managed to win seven out of 200 seats in Parliament in the 1939 elections. As shown by research, the Finnish press was strongly anti-German. Still, we have to admit it was also loud in its condemnation of Soviet policy. Public opinion began to react with increasing strength after Ingria - the region around Leningrad - was collectivized in 1930. Growing numbers of refugees arrived in Finland in spring 1931, all with tales of churches closed down, people persecuted for their faith, families broken up, and children and old people driven out of their homes to live in holes in the ground in remote regions where they were forced to labour, with heavy loss of life, in forests and mines.

	04-12-2002 18:47									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Hurricane and the German forces would still have been able to attack through Norway against Murmansk, which was the only strategic goal north of Leningrad.

You forget that Norway wouldn't have a border with Russia at that time, as the Petsamo area would still be part of Finland.

they could try and invade from the sea though, but I think the allied navies were quite strong up there.

	04-12-2002 19:20									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Serb “Evil knows no holiday!!! We must attack Iraq and North Korea now, before they will use their weapons of mass destruction against our peaceful cities. Evil must be stopped now, until it’s too late. To the arms!!! Blah…blahh….blah….” Sounds similar? Guess who agitate for this?

Um, Floyd is against attacking Iraq and thinks Bush is wrong as well. So that doesn't in any way negate his point, ya know...

	04-12-2002 20:33									#187
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Well for future paranoia of other countries this is to you: we don't attack, we only defend so you can count us out as a threat m'kay? . Good.

	04-12-2002 20:47									#188
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that's what you want us to think while you're secretly planning world domination

	04-12-2002 20:49									#189
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D'oh!

	04-12-2002 21:07									#190
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quote: It was not just "some" future point. It was quite a real and perceptible future. WWII was going on. Europe was being overrun by Germany.

But not by Finland. Given their actions in the Continuation War, I fail to see how anyone can make the claim they would have acted differently had the SU not invaded.

And serb, I oppose the Iraq War

	04-12-2002 21:30									#191
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd And serb, I oppose the Iraq War

Don't you know that all Americans are the same? What are you? Some sort of mutant?!?

	04-12-2002 23:50									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf You forget that Norway wouldn't have a border with Russia at that time, as the Petsamo area would still be part of Finland. they could try and invade from the sea though, but I think the allied navies were quite strong up there.

Oops, guess I left my brain at home.

	05-12-2002 01:40									#193
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Don't you know that all Americans are the same? What are you? Some sort of mutant?!?

No....hes a terrorist!