02-12-2002 23:00									#31
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NYE - I had thought of that, actually. You made one?

We have very limited info, though. By the time the 1st forest chop is done, we will have 2 warriors. One will have already been dispatched (north) and the other will have been completed. Meanwhile, we still have 4 turns to irrigate and road the tile. During that time, our exploring warriors will uncover the surrounding terrain and give us a good idea of whether we should move in a generally northward direction with the worker (as alexman has proposed) or toward the south (my original plan). The reasoning, of course, is that if we want to dispatch a settler to the north, we want the worker to be up there working on the floodplains and in a position to build a road to the new city and help it get up and running.

The barracks plan is solid, and I will say that I'm not big on early temples in the capitol (I'm very big on them elsewhere to get the borders expanded for full use of the tiles in the city radius), so maybe his plan is better.

-Arrian

	02-12-2002 23:05									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian NYE - I had thought of that, actually. You made one?

Yes. I can do all this work with pen and paper, or use the scenario as a 'calculator'. I prefer to use the calculator, and move through more possibilities quickly.

Let me know if you want me to email it to you.

	02-12-2002 23:06									#33
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Hmm, Arrian,

Why go south???
IMHO we are near the edge of the continent, both south and east.I don't think we are going to find annyone there.

Wouldn't it be better to go north /west???

	02-12-2002 23:10									#34
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I'd say the first warrior would want to move to that mountain, and then straight north before looping back to the east above the capitol.

Second warrior can move out to the east, then south and bend back to the west below the capitol.

Yin and Yang... quickest way to tell us the environment immediately around the capitol.

	02-12-2002 23:17									#35
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Warrior #1 should definitely go north. I was just thinking of sending the second one either to the mountain in the SW or down the river to the East/Southeast (there is this little voice in the back of my mind asking over and over: "will we have a Colossus city?").

NYE - sure, email it to mishlea@msn.com

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 00:27									#36
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I've been giving this some more thought (hey, it's a monday after a long weekend, and those SUCK) and I do think alexman's barracks proposal is best. We have a high-trade starting spot, so the 1gpt upkeep for the barracks is no big deal, and we will have no need for happiness help for some time.

quote: there is no extra benefit in the fur+river tiles in Despotism.

I just noticed this. You sure? Furs produce what, 1 trade w/o any improvement? Add the river bonus, and that's 2. So the +1 from the road would get eaten by despotism? If so, yeah, don't road the fur tile that our worker is on. But the second tile you propose to chop & irrigate is a normal forest/plains tile, right? So that one should get roaded before moving on to the floodplain. I need to look at the screenshot again.

I still think we should research BW first, btw.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 00:33									#37
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Yes, furs give +1 shield, +1 trade. The second tile to clear is also a furs tile. Even so, we might to consider roading that one for the movement bonus.

PS: Not that it matters any more, but I just realized that it was probably a mistake to move the settler away from our starting position.

We would have had an extra shield from the center tile if we had settled there, not to mention an extra turn of production and instant happiness...

	03-12-2002 00:38									#38
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Would we have had an extra shield from that? I've tried that and I recall still getting only 2f/1s from the city tile.

Anyway, I should have paid more attention to the screenshot. My second turn listing (T11 - T32) is off, because the second tile is indeed a fur tile too, which will produce 2 shields, not 1, so production will be a bit faster.

Who knows, maybe when our borders expand we will have wheat on floodplain to the NW. Those two tiles we can't see are surely floodplain. It doesn't look like we will have any bonus grassland, but the fur compensates.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 00:54									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Would we have had an extra shield from that? I've tried that and I recall still getting only 2f/1s from the city tile.

Yes, the center tile for cities under size 7 gives the shields of the base tile, with a minimum of 1. It also gives the trade of the base tile, but the capital gives 3 trade minimum so it wouldn't have made a difference there.

Anyway, I think we have a flexible plan until our Warriors uncover the full city radius. The only thing we need to settle for sure is the first tech to research.

Bronze Working: The safe choice. Can start building veteran spearmen immediately.

Wheel: Might uncover horses in radius, which give extra trade. For sure not already known by still unmet neighbors. Can start producing veteran WC very soon.

	03-12-2002 01:00									#40
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Oh, I see. Doh! What's done is done, though.

I just posted my thoughts on early research in the... early research thread (imagine that). Like I said above, I prefer BW first.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 01:43									#41
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Revised plan (edit: alexman caught something):

T2: build city, begin chop, allocate citizen to forest fur, build warrior.
T3: 1f, 3s
T4: 2f, 6s
T5: 3f, 9s, switch citizen to grassland tile.
T6: 5f, warrior complete, build another.
T7: chopping done, warrior complete, begin irrigation. 7f, begin warrior. (stick with grassland until irrigation done)
T8: 9f, 1s.
T9: Irrigation done, move worker to 2nd fur tile. Switch citizen to irrigated fur. 11, 2s.
T10: 13f, 5s, begin chop.
T11: 15f, 8s
T12: 17f, warrior done, start barracks.
T13: 19f, 3s
T14: Grow to size 2. 1f, 6s. Use grassland w/second citizen until irrigation complete.
T15: Chopping complete, 3f, 19s. Begin irrigation.
T16: 5f, 22s.
T17: Irrigation done, switch citizen, move worker to fp. 7f, 25s.
T18: 9f, 30s. Begin irrigation.
T19: 11f, 35s.
T20: 13f, barracks done. Order settler. Irrigation done, move 1 citizen to fp. start road.
T21: 16f, 3s, move citizen back to 2nd irrigated fur.
T22: 18f, 8s. road done, move to next fp.
T23: Size 3, 0f, 14s. Allocate new cit to fp. Begin irrigation.
T24: 3f, 19s.
T25: 6f, 24s. irrigation done, begin road.
T26: 9f, 29s. Move another cit to fp.
T27: 13f, settler complete. Size 1. Use floodplain. Order spearman (hey, I can dream, right?). Road done, move worker to fur on forest to east.
T28: 16f, 1s. begin chop
T29: 19f, 2s.
T30: Size 2, both on fp. 2f, 3s.
T31: 6f, 4s.
T32: 10f, 5s.
T33: Chop done. 14f, 16s. Move both cits to irrigation fur tiles. Begin road.
T34: 16f, spear done. Order settler.

That's pretty efficient. If no BW, no biggie, the last chopping bit can be removed in favor of building one more road to the next city site.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 03-12-2002 at 02:19

	03-12-2002 01:52									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian T8: 9f, 1s, irrigation done, switch citizen, move worker

One little nitpicking detail: Irrigation takes two turns. You can still switch the citizen after one turn (because the irrigation will be complete at the start of the second turn) but you can't move the worker until the second turn.

	03-12-2002 01:57									#43
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Ah, good catch. I know it takes two turns, I just screwed up. Thanks, I'll fix it. Edit: fixed, I think. I may be wasting one turn by having a citizen on the grassland for 1 turn too many, but otherwise it should be right now. I think NYE has got the right idea: test this via the editor.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 03-12-2002 at 02:21

	03-12-2002 06:13									#44
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WOW!!!

You guys need medical attention, stat!

Seriously, great thinking...

I agree, btw, that the Settler move was unnecessary (even at 2f/1s).

Also, we clearly DO NOT need a Temple.

Warrior moves: North and to the mountain.

Great job guys.

	03-12-2002 08:01									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian and I will say that I'm not big on early temples in the capitol (I'm very big on them elsewhere to get the borders expanded for full use of the tiles in the city radius)

Assuming we're planning to use very tight city spacing (2 tile separation is it?), expanding borders won't be that useful for our core cities. Just thought I'd point that out...


Dominae

	03-12-2002 08:05									#46
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Reviewing Arrians queue for the first few turns, it struck me as funny what we're getting our Worker to do: chop, irrigate, road, chop, irrigate, road. Sound familiar? Yeah, that's what the AI does...Maybe Soren didn't code the AI too bad in the first place!

(Yes, I know that the given tiles are better irrigated in this situation, just let me laugh this one out!).


Dominae

	03-12-2002 09:14									#47
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Not so sure that's the AI anymore!!! (PTW 1.14)

Talking about city placement: Am I totally insane to be thinking of the tile 2 directly east of EotS as the next site? 3 moves apart, bending south below the river... almost no corruption, and thus a possible Colossus city. Apologies aforehand to the perfectionists!

	03-12-2002 09:26									#48
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I'm thinking along the river delta could be a good place for a Colossus city if the rest of the area looks good, but we need to see what bonus tiles are around before we get our hearts set on a location for the second city. In any case, I don't see putting our second city on the Colossus right away because that would hurt our expansion too much, so our Colossus city doesn't have to be the second one. Unfortunately, I never got a map after the second turn and I don't see one on Alva's site anymore, so I'm having to work from memory.

	03-12-2002 10:08									#49
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quote: Originally posted by alexman PS: Not that it matters any more, but I just realized that it was probably a mistake to move the settler away from our starting position.

Yes, but now we get a city at the mouth of the river in our optimal city grid plan (I hope).

6 of 1, half dozen of the other.

	03-12-2002 10:25									#50
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Unfortunately, I never got a map after the second turn and I don't see one on Alva's site anymore, so I'm having to work from memory.

Apologies there, but our second turn was not done, and in fact we have time warped and not yet even begun. Nothing special was revealed by plopping the settler (that I can remember). I will have to repeat this though.

The first two shots are still on the site, just buried a bit to avoid snooping bots. Follow the 'our strategies' link. Then the 'How are we doing ?' link. Hit refresh a couple times when you first hit the home page. Might help.

	03-12-2002 10:27									#51
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yes, but now we get a city at the mouth of the river in our optimal city grid plan (I hope). 6 of 1, half dozen of the other.

If building on a fur tile really would have given us an extra production, I think that plus saving a turn would have been worth breaking the city build plan over. It was basically the prospect of losing a production bonus that made me reluctant to settle on the fur, but if we would get the production bonus anyhow, my reservation disappears. On the other hand, now that we've moved, it would be a shame to spend another turn moving back.

	03-12-2002 10:33									#52
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Size of our major port may well matter more in the long run than an extra shield now. If we are on any kind of island or limited continent, that city will be more important than the capitol until the Lighthouse is done, and maybe beyond. While at the same time, we will not want to cramp the capitol.

Just my experience with humans in MP so far. Tricky buggers!

	03-12-2002 15:30									#53
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What was the final decision on our capitals name by the way?

	03-12-2002 20:06									#54
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Eye of the Storm, I think.

Ok, so we agree on the: chop, irrigate, move, chop, irrigate... plan for now, with the builds being warrior, warrior, warrior, barracks, settler?

I tested it out last night using the little scenario NYE set up, and it seems to work nicely (I did a fuller version, resulting in 3 warriors, a barracks, settler, spear, settler). Research on BW (I know, I know, we're going with the wheel) was done just in time for the spearman, too.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 20:46									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Research on BW (I know, I know, we're going with the wheel) was done just in time for the spearman, too. -Arrian

Exactly how long did it take?

	03-12-2002 21:29									#56
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note: apparently we have the save again to repeat our 2nd turn.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=69690

	03-12-2002 21:37									#57
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Repeat!! our second turn, didn't know we played it allready
ohh well

	03-12-2002 21:38									#58
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Shiber,

Hmm... I didn't keep track, actually, I just wanted to see if the sequence worked, and it does. But if memory serves, 27 turns (and I don't recall messing with the slider at all). Maybe a couple less, as 27 was the initial time required, but the city grew.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 21:43									#59
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet note: apparently we have the save again to repeat our 2nd turn. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=69690

Excellent.

Plop & Chop, Poobah!

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 21:44									#60
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And research what?