03-12-2002 21:54									#61
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Heh, though I still think BW is the way to go, I concede defeat: The Wheel seems to have more support.

Incidentally, Poobah sir, hit F11 while you're at it. Perhaps we can gain some insight as to whether some other civs also moved their settlers.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 21:56									#62
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Also, don't forget to set science to 100%

	03-12-2002 22:04									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Incidentally, Poobah sir, hit F11 while you're at it. Perhaps we can gain some insight as to whether some other civs also moved their settlers.

Actually, regular updates on all stat screens would be appreciated: F11 as it will give us insight in how much production, troops, commerce and food a team has in the early game. F8 to look at relative strength, and culture (but this will only work once we meet others)

In F11, all top cities that are above us should have been built in the first turn, as we are the first players, if we had settled in the first turn we should have been the top city until someone else builds culture.

DeepO

	03-12-2002 22:11									#64
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Also, don't forget to set science to 100%

I think what is meant here is to put it as high as needed to get the best research rate, but no more. The way the game rounds commerce (trade? bah! old SMAC terms die hard), you can sometimes research The Wheel (say) in 27 turns with Science at 90%, and still get the benefit of a happy citizen with Luxuries at 10%. This has been discussed elsewhere, so I won't go into details.


Dominae

	03-12-2002 22:21									#65
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This is a misconception. You don't lose anything by setting science at 100%. In fact, you make sure all your income goes to science (not taxes) even when your city grows. Since the Wheel requires a fixed number of beakers (provided we don't meet anyone that knows it already), we can always reduce Science in our last turn and get the leftover in gold. You never get a free happy citizen. The income to make happiness is subtracted from your science or your taxes.

Am I missing something?

	03-12-2002 22:22									#66
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By the way, I just wanted to mention that I'm really happy Egypt won the vote, because it is our industriousness that is allowing our chop plan to be so worthwhile.

The wait is killing me. The pace of this game may result in brain damage.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 22:46									#67
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Arrian, if you would keep the same plan more or less, but build a temple instead of a barracks, you would build the first settler at least 2 turns faster. I agree, it is a different game, and you will lose some efficiency with the citizen allocation perhaps, but it will give at 3 warriors, 1 temple and a settler before you otherwise get 3 warriors, 1 barracks and a settler. Since the next thing you would build is a spear we aren't going to have (if we research the weel), we could just as easily build a barracks in between the 2 settlers. The net result of this is that we lose a spear for an early temple, and have our 2nd city built faster. I'd like that scenario...

DeepO

	03-12-2002 22:46									#68
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'poly is having the runs... DP edited out.

DeepO

Last edited by DeepO on 03-12-2002 at 23:01

	03-12-2002 23:05									#69
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quote: Originally posted by alexman This is a misconception. You don't lose anything by setting science at 100%. In fact, you make sure all your income goes to science (not taxes) even when your city grows. Since the Wheel requires a fixed number of beakers (provided we don't meet anyone that knows it already), we can always reduce Science in our last turn and get the leftover in gold. You never get a free happy citizen. The income to make happiness is subtracted from your science or your taxes. Am I missing something?

AFAIK this is correct, and if you want to have possible bonuses later on (e.g. reducing your turns when you meet someone with the same tech), you are required to set it to 100%, even if it won't give you anything.

The only difference is when you are building libraries in between, as it will change the ratio of commerce. Otherwise all commerce is transformed on a 1 to 1 ratio to either gold, happy faces, or beakers. No loss, and no virtual gains either.

DeepO

	03-12-2002 23:07									#70
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Yeah, 'poly is kinda screwy right now.

Actually, my original plan (back on page 2) was for a temple, as you suggested. Alexman suggested a barracks instead, and the rest of us agreed that it made sense. I like both plans, but I do feel the barracks is more prudent (I would like it better with BW right away, so we could alternate settler, vet spear, settler, vet spear, but no biggie. Perhaps if horses are really accessable we will have settler, vet WC, etc).

As for the spearman, I am going to play with the sequencing after the first settler tonight using the scenario NYE sent me, and see if I can maybe use the floodplains (both of them) to speed growth while utilizing the chop meant for the spearman for a settler. Thus, it would be 3 warriors, barracks, settler, settler. Or maybe 3 warriors, barracks, settler, warrior, settler. I'll figure it out.

I may play with putting out a temple after the second settler.

I'll also pay attention to the tech situation with the wheel - particularly when we grow and shrink due to settler production. I can even plop down a city at the mouth of the river, because though NYE put water everywhere we can't see yet, we can see that area, and that city can use one of the irrigated furs to start.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 23:15									#71
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Well, Arian, I'm with you on the water city as well, if only to have a shot on the collosus if the situation is right.

Please try the temple approach, because I'm not sure everyone is against one. If it proves to be a good way of avoiding losses, I would definately go for it, it would serve us well in the next 3000 years.

DeepO

	03-12-2002 23:15									#72
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Plopped and chopped.

All other civs built on turn 1, except Lux. None of them built on lux (their scores are 30, not 31).

EotS built.
Pop working forest w furs.
Que Warrior.
Set science to 100%. Research The Wheel.
Worker set to chop.

	03-12-2002 23:18									#73
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Screen Shots sent to alva.

The river bends to the N at the edge of sight (mega commerce).

	03-12-2002 23:21									#74
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/edit: cross-post made question unnecessary

	03-12-2002 23:26									#75
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looking forward to those screenies, although it will prolly be the last thing I see on the net tonight.

DeepO

	03-12-2002 23:29									#76
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quote: Originally posted by alexman This is a misconception. You don't lose anything by setting science at 100%. In fact, you make sure all your income goes to science (not taxes) even when your city grows. Since the Wheel requires a fixed number of beakers (provided we don't meet anyone that knows it already), we can always reduce Science in our last turn and get the leftover in gold. You never get a free happy citizen. The income to make happiness is subtracted from your science or your taxes.

After thinking about it a bit, I think you're right, and I see now why it doesn't jive with my experience (I won't go into it because its something I should have figured out long ago...). So, basically Science should be at 100%, unless we need to use the Luxury slider to help with unhappiness (when our capital reaches size 4).


Dominae

	03-12-2002 23:30									#77
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Cool!

	03-12-2002 23:36									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae [....] unhappiness (when our capital reaches size 4).

Hold on here... can anyone spell it out for me? I thought Regent meant 2 happy citizens in new cities. So, having one lux connected means you will be able to get to size 5 without happiness problems (size 5 = 2 happy, 1 content, 2 unhappy), and with 1 defender even get to size 6 without touching the lux slider. Only after size 6 we'll need additional happiness, coming from the slider, more troops, temples, or something similar.

Is this not correct?

DeepO

	03-12-2002 23:44									#79
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ok, I have a question for alexman, who knows things about micromanagement I will test it tonight to make sure, but I'm happily wasting my day doing this stuff, and need some clarification.

alexman explained to me that, after one full turn of irrigation (which takes two turns for us), we can switch our citizen to the as-yet-unirrigated tile, as the irrigation will complete at the beginning of the next turn, before food/shield/commerce is computed. (correct me if I'm wrong, alexman).

So what happens with city growth? If we grow from size 1 to size 2, do we get the 2nd citizen's output immediately, the turn upon which that citizen is created (and auto-allocated by the computer)? Or do we start reaping the fruits of his labour on the following turn?

That will help firm up my build queue options nicely. I'm re-working a couple of different options.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 23:52									#80
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Hold on here... can anyone spell it out for me? I thought Regent meant 2 happy citizens in new cities. So, having one lux connected means you will be able to get to size 5 without happiness problems (size 5 = 2 happy, 1 content, 2 unhappy), and with 1 defender even get to size 6 without touching the lux slider. Only after size 6 we'll need additional happiness, coming from the slider, more troops, temples, or something similar. Is this not correct? DeepO

Regent = 2 citizens born content, at least in Civ 3 (I strongly doubt they changed that in PtW). With the lux we'll get one happy and one content (grow up to 3 without disorder and specialists/lux slider). With a temple we'll get one happy and two content (grow up to 4). With a garrison we'll get one happy and three content (grow up to 5).
I'm quite sure about this.

	03-12-2002 23:54									#81
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Arrian, AFAIK all worker actions are resolved at the end of your turn, meaning that whatever extras the improving gives are available at the start of next turn (also for auto-allocation). This is earlier than alexman says (if I understand correctly), so maybe it's not precise, even if I'm fairly certain of this.

If you set a worker to irrigate in the middle of turn 1, it will irrigate the whole of turn 2, and end its irrigation at the end of it (after you moved your last unit). After that, turn 3 starts with research deciding, after which all cities are followed in chronological order.

So yes, a worker will irrigate once 1 full turn is waited, but it is handier if you compute in end-of-turns: you will need 2 of these for an irrigation. (or 1 end of turn by 2 workers, meaning that the tile is accessible instantly, even if it won't do any good until the start of next turn).

DeepO

	03-12-2002 23:54									#82
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Sure, call on the resident nerd for help!

quote: Originally posted by Arrian So what happens with city growth? If we grow from size 1 to size 2, do we get the 2nd citizen's output immediately, the turn upon which that citizen is created (and auto-allocated by the computer)? Or do we start reaping the fruits of his labour on the following turn?

We get the new citizen's shield and commerce (but not food) immediately. An exception is if we just built a settler (population gets reduced before production is counted).

Sometimes it's tricky to control where the new citizen will be placed though. Usually it pays to rearrange the citizens in the last turn before growth so that you get the right tiles worked after the city grows. If you have happiness problems, for example, he might become an entertainer. Or he might work a high-food low-production tile, which is bad because the food gets wasted.

[Edit: DeepO, we agree on when workers get their job done]

	03-12-2002 23:56									#83
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I seemed to not only have X-posted, but also managed to talk about something completely different

Oh well... time to hit the pubs

DeepO

	04-12-2002 00:00									#84
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Thanks Shiber for the happiness thing. I messed up with the happy - content things...

DeepO

	04-12-2002 00:08									#85
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Excellent, you guys answered the question I asked, AND the follow-ups (re: settler induced pop reduction and food).

Ok, then, back to "work."

-Arrian

	04-12-2002 00:44									#86
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Ok... first the temple option:

T2: build city, begin chop, allocate citizen to forest fur, build warrior. *DONE*
T3: 1f, 3s
T4: 2f, 6s
T5: 3f, 9s, switch citizen to grassland tile.
T6: 5f, warrior complete, build another.
T7: 7f, warrior complete (chopping done), order another, begin irr
T8: 9f, 1s. Switch citizen to fur tile.
T9: 11f, 4s. Irrigation done, move to next fur
T10: 13f, 7s. Begin chop
T11: 15f, warrior complete. Order temple.
T12: 17f, 3s.
T13: 19f, 6s. Move citizen to unchopped fur, hope auto-allocation sets new citizen to irrigated fur (will check on this).
T14: Size 2. 0f, 11s.
T15: 1f, 26s (chop done), begin irrigation
T16: 2f, temple done. Order settler
T17: 4f, 5s, irrigation done, move to floodplain across river (west)
T18: 6f, 10s. begin irrigation
T19: 8f, 15s, switch 1 citizen to floodplain
T20: 11f, 18s, irrigation done, begin road
T21: 14f, 21s.
T22: 17f, 24s. road done, move to 2nd fp.
T23: Size 3. 0f, 29s, begin irr
T24: Size 1, settler complete, 3f, choose another settler, re-allocate citizen to floodplain.
T25: 6f, 1s, irrigation done. start road
T26: 9f, 2s, reallocate citizen to fur.
T27: 11f, 5s. road done. cross river to other floodplain
T28: 13f, 8s. begin irrigation
T29: 15f, 11s.
T30: 17f, 14s. irrigation done, begin road, switch citizen to fp.
T31: Size 2. 0f, 17s. Switch new citizen to 2nd fp.
T32: 4f, 18s. road done, move to fur to east.
T33: 8f, 19s. begin chop
T34: 12f, 20s.
T35: 16f, 21s. switch both citizens to fur.
T36: 18f, 26s.
T37: Settler complete, size 1, 0f.

fixed per alexman's comments below. 1 turn longer for the second settler.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 04-12-2002 at 02:27

	04-12-2002 00:47									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO AFAIK this is correct, and if you want to have possible bonuses later on (e.g. reducing your turns when you meet someone with the same tech), you are required to set it to 100%, even if it won't give you anything

Also note that in a situation like ours where a city can grow a bit without needing the luxury slider (and in all cases where tiles being worked are on a roaded river), the number of turns to completion for research goes down as the population increases. Setting research to 100% until either it needs to go down to offset other expenses or there's just one turn left is the way to go.

	04-12-2002 00:58									#88
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And now for the barracks option:

T2: build city, begin chop, allocate citizen to forest fur, build warrior. *DONE*
T3: 1f, 3s
T4: 2f, 6s
T5: 3f, 9s, switch citizen to grassland tile.
T6: 5f, warrior complete, build another.
T7: 7f, warrior complete (chopping done), order another, begin irr
T8: 9f, 1s. Switch citizen to fur tile.
T9: 11f, 4s. Irrigation done, move to next fur
T10: 13f, 7s. Begin chop
T11: 15f, warrior complete. Order barracks.
T12: 17f, 3s.
T13: 19f, 6s. Move citizen to unchopped fur, hope auto-allocation sets new citizen to irrigated fur (will check on this).
T14: Size 2. 0f, 11s.
T15: 1f, 26s (chop done), begin irrigation
T16: 2f, 31s.
T17: 4f, 36s, irrigation done, move to floodplain across river (west)
T18: 6f, barracks complete, choose settler. begin irrigation
T19: 8f, 5s, switch 1 citizen to fp.
T20: 11f, 8s, irrigation done, begin road.
T21: 14f, 11s.
T22: 17f, 14s. road done, move to 2nd floodplain
T23: Size 3, 0f, 19s, begin irrigation.
T24: 3f, 24s, move another citizen to 2nd floodplain
T25: 7f, 27s, irrigation done, begin road.
T26: settler complete, select another, size 1, food depends on auto-allocation (fp or furs) assume fur. 9f. Change to fp.
T27: 12f, 1s, road done, move to fur to the east.
T28: 15f, 2s, begin chop.
T29: 18f, 3s. switch citizen to fur.
T30: Size 2, 0f, 6s (or 8 if autoallocate chooses fur, but I think fp). Allocate both cits to fp.
T31: 4f, 7s.
T32: 8f, 8s.
T33: 12f, 19s (chop done), begin road.
T34: 16f, 20s, switch both citizens to furs.
T35: 18f, 25s. road done.
T36: Settler done, size 1, 0f.

So the first settler gets out 2 turns earlier, it appears, but the second one is out at the same time.

-Arrian

	04-12-2002 01:07									#89
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I prefer the barracks method personally.

	04-12-2002 01:20									#90
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Second here.