11-12-2002 01:37									#31
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I'll take a crack at it:

"España lies just beneath the equator of Apolyton, with an ocean to the south-east. The land surrounding Madrid is diverse and beautiful, with plentiful wildlife and many forms of recreation possible."

	12-12-2002 03:20									#32
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I have had a productive talk with Caliph Borc, sirs.

The Arabs have caved in, and are now allowing in diplomats. Borc assures that he shall have his diplomatic team ready shortly.

Their capital most definitely is No Name. As for situation, they hint at being in a wild desert, though this could be mere propaganda.

Lastly, and most importantly, they seem to be impressed with Spain. They may make useful allies, they certainly seem docile enough. I think we may be able to use them as friends in coming times. Having gotten to understand the character of Borc further, I might now say that I think he is relatively trustworthy (though he still will throw up the smoke screen of propaganda where necessary) and he may become a reliable ally until he has no further use.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	13-12-2002 03:11									#33
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OOC:

For people who have actually tested the PBemail function of PTW ... how exactly does diplomacy work?

Sure, I've heard that you send an offer and they send one back ... what I'm wondering is, do they know by looking at the foreign relations screen how much gold we have, what techs we have, what cities we have, what lux we have, etc?

If not, absolutely anything goes. We'd have to ask them for what techs they'll trade and they could downright lie to us, or we could also lie about techs we have, etc. If we need iron, for example, and we start asking around, an opportunistic civ will likely attack us due to the fact that we can't build decent offensive units.

Plus, let's say we're mapwhoring and the other civ says "we only have 44g" when they actually have much more. We'll just have to take their word for it or not make the trade. Truth and deception can play very large roles...

In any event, if any of you know, please let us know so we can begin to plan for how we're going to trade with our first contact. If no one knows, perhaps we should play a "test" multi-game on a small map to test the diplomacy features.

--Togas

	13-12-2002 03:21									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Sure, I've heard that you send an offer and they send one back ... what I'm wondering is, do they know by looking at the foreign relations screen how much gold we have, what techs we have, what cities we have, what lux we have, etc?

we will not be able to see what the other guy has, nor will they be able to see what we've got

... and it does work on a turn-by-turn haggling method so I would recommend ironing out the details in PMs or or Messenger service before going through the agony of 5 turns of haggling.

	13-12-2002 05:11									#35
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Our ambassador to Legoland is currently away with "computer issues" so I will tend to his duties personally until he returns.

There has been discussion in another thread about what tech to research next and, perhaps, working that matter out with Legoland.

I will contact them and see if they are willing to begin cooperation on alternate tech research at this time. I will also see what other clues and benefits we can get.

--Togas

	13-12-2002 05:58									#36
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Lord Togas, am I not your appointment to Legoland? I am perfectly capable of doing everything in the service of Spain, except meeting directly in a room for a chat with our allies in Legoland. Direct me, my liege.

	13-12-2002 09:41									#37
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Thud,

Good to see you back, I was under the impression that you had some computer difficulties which lead to problems in the CivDem game.

I sent a message to Nimitz about cooperating on research and giving each other descriptions of our start locations. He informed me he would post the message in his forum and get back to me. When he does, I'll forward the correspondence onto you and let you continue with the negotiations.

--Togas

	13-12-2002 17:09									#38
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I´ve sent this message to ELi, an influent man in the voxians chain of power...

quote: Hello friend! I would like to ask who of you is your leader, forth I don´t know who to send messages about diplomacy, also, we Spaniards would like to make an early contact, so if you could provide us with some kind of guidelines as to were in te world you are...(on the top of the earth, on the down of the earth, your wise men provably have already mentioned something as such...) we would be glad to provide guidelines on were does the Mighty kingdom of Spain lies... Also, if there is anything you want to discuss, just tell your fellow tribesmen to send me as much PMs as needed... It is a plesure to make contact with your people... Looking forward to another meeting in mIRC like we had once... Nuclearis Winterius the II,

	13-12-2002 18:54									#39
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I´ve been informed by Eli and resent the messge to their foreing minister,I´m going to talk about tech exhange, but misleading them. I´ve also had a very interesting conversation with Eli via ICq, and I´m gonna post the archives here for your own eyes, because there are lots of things that can be deduced from that talk about he who is one of the masterminds of the Vox Controli team.
Stay tune

	13-12-2002 22:09									#40
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I would like for us to aquire Masonry from the Legoland Civ, if possible. This hinges on if, as a result of our current negotiations, we have a chance of meeting them relatively soon.

However, I would like all of our ambassadors to study their civs, determine what starting techs they have, and determine what techs we might exchange upon first contact. We may have to learn Masonry from another Civ.

We need to have this plan ready so that upon meeting any other civ we can immediately negotiate this trade.

--Togas

	14-12-2002 03:53									#41
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The Arabs have Ceremonial Burial and, I think, Pottery. They are all mad. Mad, I say!

	14-12-2002 07:09									#42
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I want each of our ambassadors to contact their civs NOW to begin discussions about what we will do if our civs are the first to meet.

Make a point of saying that we want to trade with their nation and look forward to continued trade in the future.

Make note of how we do not want to delay the game, and want to be prepared to begin trading upon first contact.

Therefore, we offer to swap start techs for start techs with them IF we are the first civs to come into contact.

We shoud also ask for a small amount of gold (40g?) in addition to our techs. Reason: EVERYONE has masonry, so it has no further trade value. We're one of 2 who has alphabet and ceremonial. Both rare techs.

Most likely negotiations will result from there. Keep negotiating, take best offer you can get. Be creative.

IF we meet another civ first, deal is off. Keep that as "fine print." Deal will result with whomever we meet first. We should stress that we may go with a 1 tech for 1 tech swap if we meet their nation 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.

Go hunting for prelimiary deals and see about getting general locations for all of the civs ... find out where they are in the world!

--Togas

	14-12-2002 08:49									#43
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Yes sir!

	14-12-2002 19:21									#44
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It would be cool if you can get a deal with them about free movement in territory, so we can move our expeditons into their homelands as well.

For instance...
The TEG and I can travel all way into their lands and report back what we find, without being called a spy.
I'd love to see if they have various metal deposits.

	16-12-2002 10:22									#45
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I received the following email from Ghengis Farb:

quote: Panzar32 and adaMada are supposedly negotiating a deal where we agree to trade you Warrior Code and Masonry for Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial and each of trades our minimaps (the little blach ones in the lower left corner) so we can can send warriors to meet in the middle and establish contact. I'm talking up the trade in our forum, if it sounds good to you could you talk it up on your side? If we meet any other civs in the meantime we should trade them for the techs they have other than the two we are planning to trade so we can get more techs. FYI we have info on other civs and their locations to trade you in order to sweeten the deal.

My reply:

quote: Jason (Ghengis) I sent Ada to work on this trade and I'm glad that your nation is behind this idea. We both have 2 techs that can be traded with the other, however, we're not entirely sold on Masonry because everyone else who we've been in PM contact with has it, and we anticipate paying a few token gold for it in trade from the first civ we meet. However, if it turns out that it's your civ that we meet first, I think we'd happily do a 2 for 2 tech trade deal if you can give us the location (how to find, mini box, whatever) of another civ with whom we can trade, of if you can throw in a common tech that you guys have purchased ... something like Pottery. If we agree to this deal and our nation meets another civ first, I would be willing to substitute Masonry for something else when we meet -- like additional civ locations or gold. If you give us gold we'd only give it right back to you later on when we hire you guys. I have authorized this agreement to be made between our nations in the hope of continued good will and good relations between us. I hope that our nations can come into contact soon. --Togas

	16-12-2002 11:02									#46
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Although I wouldn't trust GoW as far as I could throw them (and their warriors are particularly large, meaning it would be very hard to throw them), this agreement sounds very good (if they'll honor it...).

In conjunction with our techsharing deal with Legoland, this is very good.

	17-12-2002 08:55									#47
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Here i wat betahound, exterior minister of the one voice sent to me after a request for diplomatic contacts

quote: Greetings form Vox Controli Greetings form Vox Controli Dear Nuclearis Winterius II , esteemed representative of the fine people of the Mighty Kingdom of Spain - splendid roleplayers all. I, BetaHound, have been chosen to speak to you on behalf of the Controller and the citizens of Vox Controli. In this correspondence, I am not only introducing myself, but more importantly, the nation of the One Voice - Vox Controli. As a form of introduction, and to allow you a better insight into our civilization, I have chosen to read to you today, selected readings from The One Book, and more specifically, Jon's letter to the Controllians. "Controllians 6, Verses 1 to 5. 1. In the beginning, there were many voices. And it was chaos. And it was not good. 2. And 'The Voice' called to jon miller, and he went onto the great mountain, the One Peak. And there 'The Voice' spoke to jon. 3. He spent 18 days and 15 nights on the One Peak (ed Scholars are still debating to this day what jon did for the other 3 nights) and returned with the law of our people on one stone, drawn up as the One Commandment: 4. Thou shalt speak with One Voice. 5. And then there was one controller, chosen by the people, and there was One Voice, and One Voice only. And there was order. And it was good." Thus ends the readings. This should help to clarify who we are. We are not a fascist state. We are not a dictatorship. We are a small, but well ordered civilization. We are democratic. But we acknowledge, and accept as our law, the need to speak with One Voice. We look forward to cordial and productive relations with you, your leaders, and your people. We approach you in friendship, but stand ready to defend our rights, our citizens, and our land. We speak forthrightly, and expect the same of you. We have long memories. I know we share the same goal of improving our respective and cherished homelands. Together, we can achieve more. You have asked for our understanding of where we are in the world, in order to facilitate contact as soon as possible. We expect similar information in return. The Civilization of Vox Controli sits in the Northern Hemisphere, and from our initial understanding of the world, to the East. (As you appreciate my dear sir, perspective is everything.) There is much ocean to be seen, however we reside on a landmass of, as yet, undetermined proportions. It is a fine land, with much promise. I look forward to further discussions with you. So, once again, our salutations to you, our honored guest, and to your nation. Till next we meet, I remain, sincerely yours, BetaHound Voice of Foreign Affairs (VFA) Vox Controli

I´m gonna purpose him trade, and i need an urgent answer for trading directives on map affairs, so if anyone is on now go to irc!

	17-12-2002 09:25									#48
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Give him a long and friendly response. Speak in great detail about our culture and beliefs, but make sure not to make it too cheesy. We want to convey a sense of our Spanish honor in addition to our good sense of humor.

Give him a general description of where we are located. Tell him that we would like to meet with his people soon ... perhaps somewhere in the middle. Ask if his people have met other civilizations and, if so, what he thinks of them.

Propose to trade IF we can find a way to meet up.

Let him know that we also speak with one voice, The Voice of our Great Despot Togas. He welcomes contact with Vox and looks forward to one day meeting and discussing things in person.

--Togas

	17-12-2002 22:01									#49
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[QUOTE]
My friend BetaHound:
We the Spaniards, glorious sons of the sea spirits, merged with the land and forest spirits, envy of the world, would be eagerly looking to meet your people... our explorers can meet yours at the middle(a little to the east) of the world localization, just near the squidda minor constelation. We could enlight your nice people with the secrets of the spirits, and of how to deal with the dead(it is no proper manner to throw them to rot anywere...) and we can teach you the most valuable knowledge of how to carve drawings into stone and give them a meaning... of course, we would like to exachange those for secret knowledge you may have, so if you could please tell about what kind of secrets your wise-men know, we might teach you ours if you teach yours, and of course depending on the valuability of the knowledge we may give or ask for a little gold in adittion to the secret.
Also we would like to know if you have already met some other tribe... fort the land spirits have only revealed to us barbarians so far... no settled tribes as us. Anyway, if the spirits guide our wanderers toward other nations we may come to share knowledge with them. In case you have already met any other tribe, please contact us and maybe we could find a manner to introduce our representants to them.
Also our Lord Togas has expressed great desire of one day contacting your Leader personally, to discuss important matters so that you can also make contact with the mighty voice of El tyranno, Lord Togas (Our One Voice).

May our nations grow prosper and rich, and with the blesses of the spirits!
Nuclear Winter the II
[QUOTE]
This was what I sent to Vox controli´s foreign affairs minister, as requested by our lord.

	19-12-2002 01:22									#50
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I received the following message from Nimitz of Legoland:

quote: (quoted text in body of letter) Honourable Togas, The Ruler of España, The Master Of All Squids, Legoland greets you officially for the first time! Currrently, as we are sure you are also, we are attempting to gain a clearer image of our surroundings. Thus the only indication we can give regarding where we are is a hemispherical one. We would be happy to trade this information for the same from yourselves. As for technology, we are happy to report that we are - no surprise - currently researching Bronze Working. While we are all in agreement that ourselves and the RP team are good friends and are happy to cooperate we feel that until it can be ascertained where we are in relation to each other, and how long it may take to achieve an ingame contact we should regretfully decline to work out a common research policy. We may be far apart from each other and joint research might result in both our civs missing key techs until we make contact which could cause problems if either of us met a hostile civ before we met each other. We hope you understand. Let your squids never die from bad water. With the Sincerest Regards, Legos the Wise, The Builder (end quoted text) I'm also sorry to tell you that we already got CB so that deal won't work.

I wrote Nimitz back and gave him a little grief about how we're TRYING to be their friends and partners and wondering why they don't want to give us their location to meet. Frankly, their letter bothers me to some degree. I'll let the rest of you read it and give your insight, but one thing is clear: They've met Neu Dem. Neu Dem is the only nation out there with Ceremonial Burial and it's already spreading, as is Alphabet, I'm sure. Neu Dem is going to do VERY well in the early game if they keep this first contact stuff up.

I forwarded a copy of the letter to Thud. Thud -- please see what you can do to soften up the Legos a bit and see what we can find out about their reluctance.

--Togas

	19-12-2002 01:33									#51
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I have not heard back from Admiral PJ for Lux, yet. Once I do, I will discuss possible trade of start techs plus something extra for us, as you describe.

	19-12-2002 01:43									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Togas ...one thing is clear: They've met Neu Dem. Neu Dem is the only nation out there with Ceremonial Burial and it's already spreading, as is Alphabet, I'm sure. Neu Dem is going to do VERY well in the early game if they keep this first contact stuff up.

actually, Lord Togas, there is a possibility that they have met Egypt (Gathering Storm) as they also have Ceremonial Burial.

If it the trade was made with Egypt, then Egypt would likely now have Alphabet (as that is the only unshared tech that Legoland could offer in exchange for Ceremonial Burial).

If it was Neu Dem, then there is a possibility that Alphabet may have gotten as far as to Lux Invictus (assuming Lux and Neu really did meet) and Legoland could have traded for both Ceremonial Burial and Pottery (because Alphabet is definitely worth the pair). Perhaps we should hit them up along those lines to see if they would be willing to trade that to feel them out about who they have met.

	19-12-2002 02:01									#53
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That's right ... I've focused on Neu Dem (Arabs) too much with their alleged meeting with Lux (Ottomans). A meeting with Storm (Egypt) is also possible. Hopefully, Legoland will tell us what techs they have for sale and that will tip us off to who's met who.

--Togas

	19-12-2002 02:22									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I'll let the rest of you read it and give your insight, but one thing is clear: They've met Neu Dem. Neu Dem is the only nation out there with Ceremonial Burial and it's already spreading, as is Alphabet, I'm sure. Neu Dem is going to do VERY well in the early game if they keep this first contact stuff up.

Um, this doesn't seem so clear to me. Maybe they got a tech goodie hut.

	19-12-2002 02:30									#55
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Sorry I did not see this the first time:

Nimitz says that the only location indication they can give us is a hemispherical one.

That is what we want to trade, is it not, the little map?

Now, the little map can tell us at least if Legos have seen any other cities of other civs, we'll have to blow it up to clarify the color of the little dots, but we should make that trade.

Then, maybe one of you graphics guys, can somehow superimpose our own little map on theirs to help see where we are in relation to each other, that would be a cool graphic.

	19-12-2002 02:31									#56
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Oh, and dejon is right, Ceremonial Burial could be a goodie hut hit.

	19-12-2002 05:19									#57
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[ooc -- Wrote the post and then realized this is a rp thread, sorry ]

Very sorry for not following this thread as closely as I should have -- I've been actively negotating with GoW via PMs, and have been planning to begin making public reports, but as I've said on the C3DG-SP forum, this is exam week in school, so time's a bit less flexible than I'd like .

First thing first, Togas' e-mail from Ghengis actually reveils a fact or two I didn't even know. I had no idea they've met/found other Civs until now, though I think it's very good for us they have.

They seem to be very intent on a mini-map trade -- I've recieved at least two PMs from Panzer on that topic alone. Any thoughts? Personally, I'd like to work it in as part of a larger deal including tech trades and perhaps even a nonagression pact, but I'd like to hear the opinion of the populance first. Arnelos has brought up one very good point, however -- an alliance with GoW could lead us into a conflict with Legoland. Having said that, I've discussed the issue with Togas a bit, and I don't believe it's an issue we should worry about now -- GoW could be too valuable an ally, in my opinion, to let it pass. Though it is not my department, I'm also disturbed by Legoland's refusal to trade mini-maps with us. If anything, however, it seems most likely they've met something else, and are unable to do so for that reason.

I'll be following this thread very closely now, will do everything possible to be at the teamchat, and will be posting more information on our options shortly. Meanwhile, I'd like to know what people think about :
* Moving towards a good relationship, alliance, official neutrality, or any other relationship with GoW.
* Giving them our minimap.
* Trying to aquire the information

One last note, Togas -- do you know if Ghengis' information was officially handed to us? I'd like to talk to Panzer about who they've met (and how we can aquire information from them, perhaps cheeper than aquiring from the original civ -- if their contract doesn't forbid it, that is), but if the information isn't supposed to be public, I obviously don't want to get anyone in trouble/tip our hand.

-- adaMada

	19-12-2002 05:21									#58
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[ooc]

quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd [snip] Then, maybe one of you graphics guys, can somehow superimpose our own little map on theirs to help see where we are in relation to each other, that would be a cool graphic.

I probably can -- I'm not good with graphics in general, but have been learning how to use Photoshop elements, and think I've got a good enough feel for it to do that (assuming I have a screenshot of our map at the same size to work with).

-- adaMada

	19-12-2002 05:35									#59
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada Togas -- do you know if Ghengis' information was officially handed to us? I'd like to talk to Panzer about who they've met but if the information isn't supposed to be public, I obviously don't want to get anyone in trouble/tip our hand.

The email was clearly a communication from his team to ours. It wasn't a personal email. It's OK to discuss it with Panzer.

--Togas

	19-12-2002 05:40									#60
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Togas -- Thanks . Next time I send a message to him, I'll discuss it .

I'm going to write a longish post on our diplomatic relationship, what they have, what we have, and what diplomatic options are open to us and them. I hope to have it done by tonight, though I can't promise -- depends on how quickly I can type it up.

-- adaMada