19-12-2002 05:42									#61
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I agree with ally GoW.
About Legoland, I believe they have started to be paranoid towards all, and ´maybe they think we want to keep them far from bronze working with evil intents... or they´ve met an evil civ and are researching BW for protection....
[rp][Polaris Winterius] Ahh the little b*stards! We should stap their civ in revenge! Little rats! Backstabbers! [Polaris][RP]They are carthage thanks to us!

	19-12-2002 05:53									#62
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Legoland is most likely just being slightly paranoid, I agree. Despite our agreement with them, we will still need to earn their trust.

My argument is that earning their trust is worth it.

-----------

btw, I've been reading everything in this thread... just don't have reason to comment a lot. Everyone is doing a very good job

	19-12-2002 05:56									#63
	Got spare money?

As for alliance with GoW, I'm fine with us being "friends" of GoW and I'm even ok with a "non-agreession treaty" with GoW. However, we should know (for ourselves) that if our non-aggression treaty with GoW comes into conflict with our alliance with Legoland, we should side with Legoland. The reason is painfully simple... at least if we and Legoland defeat GoW, we don't have to worry as much about Legoland taking us out next... whereas if we and GoW defeat Legoland, we DO have to worry about being GoW's next target.

It would be a mistake to trust Legoland's peaceful nature TOO MUCH, but I would say that I think they're the ONE TEAM where we can actually earn their trust and use that. No other team will ever let us really earn their trust, I would assume.

	19-12-2002 06:17									#64
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I say we trade mini-maps with as many as we can...even GofW....we need to prepare our defenses regardless, and them knowing where we are is not necessarily a bad thing. they may be looking for someone, a non-mil civ like us, to befreind and have as an ally against teams they fear greater.

	19-12-2002 06:47									#65
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Have we been clear with Legoland concerning our wanting to trade information about our locations? In Nimitz's letter, he suggested a willingness to trade hemispherical information. Perhaps, he means the same thing we mean.

His letter did not come off as paranoid to me. It seems sensible for them to want to get essential research out of the way prior to our meeting. Also, Bronze Working is critical if they really are beelining for the Great Wall; they are not gonna leave that one to chance. And there is a definite desire on their part not to spend the game beholden to us. Maybe, these are things we should play to in our attitudes towards them. Reaffirm their sovergnity, but hint at a fairly good understanding of their intentions. Venture information about ourselves in good faith.

They have a stated-purpose in this game that we don't have; we are the wild card in the relationship. Arnelos is right about nurturing that trust. It won't come cheap.

	19-12-2002 07:32									#66
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

adaMada, jdjdjd, Nuclear Winter, and myself were just in a chat with Nimitz (on IRC).

Nimitz stated that there were members of his team afraid about giving away their location because they think we'd have an advantage in passing that information on while if they pass on the information about our location, it doesn't really hurt us (since we seem to want to contact everyone anyways).

Now, it's entirely possible (I believe it's partially the case) that Nimitz is using what is likely the objections of 1-2 members of his team and pumping it up a bit to see if he can get any additional concessions out of us.

Nimitz agreed with us that RP Team and Legoland should pursue a "special relationship" due to the higher level of trust that we believe would be possible between our teams than between other teams. He agreed with us (or said he did) that trust between the eams would have to be built through action over words and that taking the risk of letting us know their location was such an action (I think he's at least partially just playing that, but part of it is genuine as well).

The other part of the chat (ongoing through this and beyond) was a long talk about several things, but the main focus was Glory of War. Nimitz and we agreed that Glory of War was a threat, yada, yada, yada. We talked about which teams were more likely to pay for the services of GoW, that Glory of War was a threat precisely because they're something of a chaotic factor in a world where both our teams seem to have an interest in things being nice and quiet (for building), etc, etc, etc. Objectives here should be clear: While much of what I said was in part sincere (I really do think GoW is a threat, a destabilizing factor that needs to eventually be expunged, etc, etc, etc), the point of jointly discussing these thoughts with Legoland was to further the thought from their mind that WE might be seeking an agreement with GoW and hopefully providing reasoning (and even sincere reasoning at that) why GoW is dangerous and Legoland shouldn't be aligning with them.

We talked about a few other issues as well. Not much of amazing relevance before the conversation drifted over to single-player game issues from the Civ3DG.

	19-12-2002 08:05									#67
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Isn’t it sort of cheating to try to hint to everyone where we were? The Spanish didn’t have any hints that there were Incas below the equator when they sailed across the ocean for the first time.

	19-12-2002 19:01									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Nimitz stated that there were members of his team afraid about giving away their location because they think we'd have an advantage in passing that information on while if they pass on the information about our location, it doesn't really hurt us (since we seem to want to contact everyone anyways).

This has got to be a joke or a ploy. There is no way they can expect to win the game by holing themselves up in a corner and keeping contact to a minimum.

I'm not so scared about being knocked out of the game that I would threaten my team's ability to stay competitive. They can't be that stupid

	19-12-2002 21:13									#69
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Excerpt from Betahound message :

" The Civilization of Vox Controli sits in the Northern Hemisphere, and from our initial understanding of the world, to the East. (As you appreciate my dear sir, perspective is everything.)"

Does not it look like a puzzle ? The wording let me think that it does not tell what I understood at first reading it.

Their message would be true if they have met a civ west of them: they would be east of such a civ.

Did they used the same trick for the Northern hemisphere ? Or only for one, or even not at all ? In other words, they do not reveal anything which can be used.

Last edited by DAVOUT on 19-12-2002 at 21:55

	19-12-2002 21:47									#70
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

It appears that Vox Controli is role playing as much as we do. I would suggest that Togas, when he first met with them, underline this point : we have much in common which makes both of us different from the other civ. And a part of this message could be esoteric (although true) to create a beginning of complicity.

	19-12-2002 21:51									#71
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In my only PM to Jon Miller (but I expect that there will be more, in time), I talked about how much I appreciated their creativity and concept and how it's very similar to our roleplay theme.

I don't write PMs to the other leaders very often, if at all. I hope to stress with my occasional "personal contact" with the other leaders that we're taking a special liking to them.

If anyone asks, stress to them that Togas lets the ambasadors do the talking and ONLY RARELY contacts civs on his own, and only when he feels an important personal reason to.

--Togas

	19-12-2002 22:24									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Togas If anyone asks, stress to them that Togas lets the ambasadors do the talking and ONLY RARELY contacts civs on his own, and only when he feels an important personal reason to.

Good idea. If someone says they had contact with Togas, our ambassadors can say something like, "Oh My! You spoke with the Supreme Leader!? How honored you must be! He very rarely initiates or responds to outside contact - he does so only in matters of great import or personal interest."

	20-12-2002 00:02									#73
	Discussion with Nimitz Increase Your PM Length

I had a chat with Nimitz this morning. These are a few things I learned:

They're democratic. They have a poll about trading mini maps with us. They need 4 more votes to pass the plan to trade. Poll should be over by tomorrow.

He claims he came up with the mini-map trade idea for his team and has been pitching it to them.

He feels his team is "Fearful" of too much outside contact at this point in the game. Wants us to "grow trust" at this stage in the game. He feels contact with us is "worth the risk"

He proposed on his own a "mpp idea" where we protect each other. I told him that we'd be happy to agree to something like that.

The team doesn't want to reveal how they got Ceremonial Burial but he "thinks we can guess"

They are located "near the middle of the map" and to the west of us.

He says the continent has a very "interesting shape." They are exploring it, but currently have no warriors headed east (towards us)

He says "you'll see some interesting stuff from Legoland soon. Just watch the demographics"

He mentioned that they're proud that they grew first and fastest. Commented on how their Public Works guys are very good. But won't comment on the actual terrain of Legopolis.

--Togas

	20-12-2002 00:44									#74
	Full PM-box? Change here!

ooc:

Very good Togas...
This is interesting information indeed. I think this is a great opportunity for us. We could exploit their insecureness by pretending we feel the same or something?

Be somewhat careful with a protection pact.
You could try to negotiate something clever, so that we are secured from losing regards from our allies in Legoland.
None of them knows about our other deals, do they?
In that case, we have to be careful not to lose integrity...

Now I guess TEG can continue heading west,
and we shall be on the lookout for them.

	20-12-2002 01:17									#75
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Be careful,

If Legoland's goal is to be a builder civ, they will focus on a strong diplomacy game to avoid other civs to attack them. They will try to motivate the other civs to attack each other while they peacefully continue to build their empire and take advantage on tech research.

I say :

1. no mpp before we better know our "true" location (not from minimaps, but from own explorers).
2. No alliance with other civs for the same reason.
3. No trade minimaps.

The minimaps from other civs could be false. We don't need minimaps because they don't allow us to trade anything.

From the beginning, we say ourselves that we intend to maintain us as much as possible as an enigmatic team. I think we should keep this line of diplomacy until we really meet other civs.

	20-12-2002 02:43									#76
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I think astrologix is perfectly right on this issue... *applause*

	20-12-2002 15:41									#77
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"He says the continent has a very "interesting shape."

Chokepoint ?

	20-12-2002 17:34									#78
	Answer from Vox Support Apolyton

quote: Explorers Too Dear Nuclearis Winterius Thank-you for your letter of the 18th. We appreciate the need to meet as soon as possible. Business awaits us. Alas, we must meet first. And to this end, we, the people of the One Voice responded positively to your request to identify - as best we could - where we reside in this wonderful, albeit shrouded world. I'm sure you will recall my 'directions' from my first correspondence. So yes, we are eager to meet. We would also appreciate some information in return, which I understood to be our original deal. In other words - We tell you where we are. You tell us where you are. .....as best as can be identified from our current understanding of our environment. We promise to keep the information confidential. The people of Vox Controli feel that we have much in common with the people of Spain. A love of life, a love of the land, a love of the sea, the squid thing - well, we still have much in common. In conclusion - it would be good for our explorers to meet. The brave warriors of the One Voice have the honor in Voxian society of opening up the land. The first warrior you will meet - his name is Wandering Willy - a hero to the people of the One Voice. In answer to your questions - Willy can see the sea. (His sister Sally sells sea-shells by the sea-shore.) He is heading south. He has been on a long journey - so if you meet him - a mug of beer would be greatly welcome. Do not be put off by his tough appearance - Willy is a fine and sensitive human being - as is typical of our people. Given that the topic of Willy and Warriors has come up, I could not resist the temptation to leaf through the one book, and share with you one of my favorite sectons. It is from the Book of Warriors. Warriors I, Verses 1 to 6. 1. And so it came to be that the people of Vox Controli founded the capitol, "The Voice". 2. And the Voice begat warriors. 3. The Voice begat Willy. The Voice begat Tim. The voice begat Thadeus. 4. And Willy went out of The Voice, and into the wilderness. 5. And the shadows receded, and light shone upon the land. 6. And the people of Vox Controli cried out in unison and joy. Thus ends the reading. Very uplifting, isn't it. I get a tingle everytime I read it. Makes me almost wish that I had taken up a different line of work. Sigh - the life of a bureaucrat - well you understand. My dear sir, I must make my leave. I wish you well. I look forward to hearing from you regarding location. And may the One Voice grant good fortune to explorers of both our great nations as they strive to meet in an uncertain world. Yours truly, BetaHound, VFA, Vox Controli

As you see, they are heading south.
Directives on what to answer? (Besides the fact that I had already given directives on our location.....)

	20-12-2002 18:06									#79
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We could answer along those lines :

I recall well of your directives; for us the perspectives are quite simple since we are near the center of the map, as we told you. For us, the East is on the right side and the West is on the left side of the map. More detailed directives could possibly help us to look for you on the good side.

Just a suggestion.

	20-12-2002 21:42									#80
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"Willie can see the sea. He is heading south."

It's possible that Willie might meet our Madrid Expedition.


...And I love how these guys also seem to roleplay. We need to continue to give them bits of our roleplay in our PMs to them. They could be doing it just for our benefit, but just the fact that they write it up and seem to enjoy it gives us both someone in common that cannot be ignored.

Be sure to keep a VERY friendly attitude with Vox. I know that betahound has been slow in his responses. I'm going to write a message back to Jon thanking him for getting Beta to write us quickly and thanking them for telling us such a enjoyable tale, etc, etc.

... the diplomacy never stops.

--Togas

	21-12-2002 00:59									#81
	Inflate your Upload Space

Oh my liege, be calm, for I treated(and will treat) them as sweetly as I can. More roleplay is going on the next Pm, be assured of this.
I shall only release my anger on that Hound via mIRC in our private channel.... lol

	21-12-2002 21:05									#82
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GoW has PMmed again requesting we exchange minimaps. Could we discuss this a bit, and perhaps even have our great leader give his thoughts?

-- adaMada

	21-12-2002 21:24									#83
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I think so adaMada. Let's not to anything hasteful now.

	21-12-2002 22:47									#84
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Since I've been doing so much diplomacy via IRC and PMs and have been rather -- negligent -- in posting things on the forums, here is a complete diplomatic update on where we are with Glory of War.

GoW Diplomatic Overview:

Current Diplomatic Status:

• We are generally friendly
  
• When we first met, I convinced their ambassador that I was fighting a distrust of them amongst my team, citing their warrior nature. In response, he asked me to pass this quote (from the General PTW forum) along to the team in general:
  

  quote: Simple logic says that if we violate even one contract, no teams will sign contracts with us and will throw off our entire stragity. It is in our best interest in the long term to follow the contracts no matter how advantageous a voilation oppertunity looks.

  
  I passed this information on to Togas, and then disregarded it, as the distrust was more of a diplomatic ploy than a truth. Having said that, some members of our team clearly do distrust GoW a bit because their militarism, and I'd like to hear any thoughts on whether I should continue the ruse, perhaps claiming there's a segment of our population that now distrusts them, but not a large one. Any thoughts?
  
• We've agreed that a 2-2 tech trade is acceptable, though it hasn't been formally agreed yet. They have warrior code and masonry -- and they are the only group to have warrior code, meaning it's rather valuable. I've overplayed the value of our techs and underplayed theirs, to the point where their ambassador agreed that we are doing them a favor, and explicitly mentioned that it would help foster goodwill amongst them. This is in lou of gold, but I am under the impression that Togas (and most others) consider it a priority to befriend this team even to the point of loosing a bit of gold. Considering that befriending them now may net us a discount should we ever hire them later and that warrior code in itself is fairly valuable, I consider it to be a workable deal for us, even if (on the surface) we give away more than we get.
  
• They are actively seeking a minimap trade with some urgency, for reasons unknown. If we do trade, their ambassador suggested that we could send warriors to meet each other earlier in the game than we otherwise could.
  

	21-12-2002 22:49									#85
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat I think so adaMada. Let's not to anything hasteful now.

I don't want to do anything hasteful -- just find out what people think . Having said that, if we wanted to do that warrior-warrior meeting strategy mentioned above, we'd want to get the map trade done sooner rather than later, so we can get moving on the whole deal. Having said that, this is (by far) a secondary concern to the greater issue of making the best decision.

-- adaMada

	21-12-2002 22:53									#86
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yeah, let's see what the others have to say.

I think mini-map trading could be a nice choice,
but only for the ones we can trust.
For now I don't know who to trust?

	21-12-2002 22:58									#87
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat yeah, let's see what the others have to say. I think mini-map trading could be a nice choice, but only for the ones we can trust. For now I don't know who to trust?

Since we happen to be the only two people who seem to be commenting on this right now , I'd like to ask you your opinion on one thing.

If we did the mini-map trade and a nonagression pact, would you feel better? Obviously, this assumes that GoW honor their pact, but I think they will -- as the quote I was sent says, they can't expect many people to hire them if they start backstabbing now.

I'm just trying to get a general feel for public thoughts before Togas makes a decision -- if nothing else, I've got a 'have you decided yet?' message to reply to, and I'd like to know in what tone I should say 'no' .

-- adaMada

	21-12-2002 23:16									#88
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hasteful? That's not a word is it? Ah well, we Spanairds don't have our first dictionary yet, so it doesn't matter.

As for Glory of War...DO NOT give them our maps. These men have stressed, they haven't suggested, they've stressed that their goal is to destroy every other civilization and win by domination. Their only philosophy is warfare, that is all. There is nothing else they plan but warfare, one long protracted struggle to eradicate all other powers and to become the one kingdom on the planet. That is all. Glory of War is not to be trusted, or entrusted with such valuable things.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Diplomat

	21-12-2002 23:57									#89
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy Hasteful? That's not a word is it? Ah well, we Spanairds don't have our first dictionary yet, so it doesn't matter. As for Glory of War...DO NOT give them our maps. These men have stressed, they haven't suggested, they've stressed that their goal is to destroy every other civilization and win by domination. Their only philosophy is warfare, that is all. There is nothing else they plan but warfare, one long protracted struggle to eradicate all other powers and to become the one kingdom on the planet. That is all. Glory of War is not to be trusted, or entrusted with such valuable things. Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger Diplomat

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger,
I know not if hasteful is a word. In my travels, I am told that we are indeed advanced to even have knowledge of an alphabet, so perhaps we might continue our advancement through the construction of a great list of words that exist? I know not of this dictionary you speak of, however I am always happy to learn new of words, and perhaps even find some that I may use.

As for Glory of War, I must respectfully disagree with your diplomatic assessment. As your honor may remember, this tribe has elected to make themselves a band of servants, willing to do the deeds of others for reward, even at the expense of their own victory*. Though I understand not their reasons for doing such, it would seem to me that they would be unwilling to betray a friend, as then who would allow their service? Indeed, if we are concerned that they will use this information to betray us, they have already agreed to shakehands with us upon the thought of nofighting, and perhaps a great linguist (such as yourself) might even place such a handshake in words and make it moreso binding? Even without such, I feel confident that they will honor their words, as any other path will lead to the downfall of both their tribe and their merchant ways.

Sincearly yours,
ada del Mada
Ambassadsor of Togas to Glory of War

[ooc]
* Merc tribe, even if it means loosing them the game.
[/ooc]

	22-12-2002 00:08									#90
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Let's trade maps with them.

We cannot hide our location forever. And we cannot hope to be successful in this game by hiding from our potential enemies. We must be bold, bring them in close to us, befriend them as much as possible, and beat them at their own game.

We are Spaniards. Let us fear noone.

--Togas