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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by adaMada
[SNIP]
Any thoughts are very welcome -- we should all be involved in this message, as it's very important in our communications with GoW.
-- adaMada
[SNIP]
I'm afraid that my team has decided that .jpg trades (other than minimaps) are against the spirit of the game. Though I tried to convince them, they feel that minimap trades were agreed upon by all the teams as a way to speed the game up, and that the game is too close to mapmaking for full screen .jpg trades to be an acceptable alternative. I'm very sorry, but it's been put to a vote, and there's little I can do about it unless the team decides otherwise. As soon as we have mapmaking, we will happily trade maps using the in-game function then.
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Let them know that the Percentages where 83.3% not to Trade, with 16.7% to do the trade. This will let them know that there are some of us who are wanting to deal with them on this issue. THis will also let them know how much the team (not just Togas) is against this trade.
[Afterthought] I'm still catching up on this thread, as I've been working on other things. If you've sent it off, then disregard (or leave for a later communication) the vote tally.
Eta Tamali
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:24
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Just had another long chat with Nimitz...
Talked about a lot of stuff, some PTW-related... here's what we shared:
NIMITZ TOLD ME THAT:
- Legoland just passed a constitution
- Legoland is holding elections this next week
- Legoland positions:
President: Jack_www
VP: Vondrack
Labor Minister: Tiberius
Interior Minister: ZargonX
Defense Minister: redstar1
Science+Finance Minister: Spiffor
RP Ambassador: Nimitz
GS Ambassador: ZargonX
LI Ambassador: none
GW Ambassador: ZargonX(?)
- They have about 10-13 active people
- Nimitz is not a very active poster on their boards, just does his ambassador job
- all of their attention right now is toward exploring and fighting off barbarians
- knows of no agreement Legoland is currently negotiating with another team (telling the truth?)
- Panzer32 is the GoW ambassador to them as well
- Most of their team are not in the Civ3DG or are new to it.
- A large number of their team members are paranoid that the Civ3DG reputations of Nimitz and Spiffor will cause Legoland to be attacked at some point in the future
- They are completely unconcerned with war for now, being on a continent to themselves - and they're extremely happy with that.
- I asked why they didn't have ambassadors for Lux or Vox and he told me he think they just went inactive and Legoland hasn't worried much about negotiation yet
- I noted that most of Legoland's leadership was unknown to the other teams and he agreed.
- While a defensive alliance between our teams might not be a bad idea, he's concerned that so many of his teammates are so intensely isolationist that it wouldn't be a possibility w/o clear threat
- He asked what we would think if Legoland conquered another country - then later said that Legoland wasn't thinking about that, he just wondered. ( <- interesting, isn't it?)
- He told me that the land they spoted off to their far south and west (which would be to our east) they believed might be our continent. I assured him I believed it was not, probably an island. The terrain of that land appears to be made of grassland from what they can see. We speculated that it might be possible to take a galley around this potential island to make a trip between Legoland and RP Team less dangerous.
- Legoland suspects the map to be on the warm setting
- Legoland suspects the map to be on the wet setting
I TOLD NIMITZ THAT:
- We operate as a despot with mob rule
- our "rules" are very fluid, though there is some order estalbished by edicts of the despot or proposed organization by team members
- We have 28 members, but our active members I guessed to be anywhere from 15 to 22
- role-play has slowed somewhat since the X-mas holidays
- Negotiations on the continent have been very complex, lots going on
- ND and Lux have agreed to something of a border agreement with us, working with GoW, but they're really far away
- Told them we had a mix-up back a while ago where Panzer32 told us one thing and GhengisFarb told us another and we had to sort it out
- We've had talk about the impact of the reputations of team members in the Civ3DG, but any thought of that being the cause of a war in the PTW game has been largely dismissed.
- We have talked, however, about what impact our reputations will make other teams THINK about us.
- I noted the number of DIA people on the RP Team (we're builder-friendly  )
- Told them that while some worried about early war, I personally wasn't as worried about it.
- I noted that they were the largest civ in the game  and he said he didn't know that... I told him to check the F11 screen, because that's where we figured that it was them (since it wasn't us!)
- Told him who each of our office-holder-equivalents were (Togas, dejon, Oliverfa, myself, etc.)
- I told him that Togas and I (when I was his MTA) had decided we wanted to pursue a closer relationship with Legoland than with other teams, which is why Togas had personally been pursuing chats with them and such. Told him the same didn't work out with other teams, though it had been tried with some. (wanna make him feel special )
- Told him Thud told Togas and I in our diplomacy thread that we were making Thud's job easy 
- Told him that little joke we told about comparing WWI/WWII alignments to our situation (Legoland = America... because they'd really rather that the warmongers not sweep over the world, but they'd be hard-pressed to lift a finger to help stop it - He laughed and agreed that that was the perspective of many on his team)
- Told him one of our objectives was to make sure some semblance of balance of power was maintained and stabilized because that's better for builder strats ( .... )
- I told him if there was a power that was threatening the stability of the region or the security of either we our our allies, we'd probably be willing to help fight against them... and I hoped that Legoland would become an ally we'd be willing to help...
- Told him it was likely a bad idea for Legoland to invade the continent if they were considering it, however, because they were unlikely to want to compete in the likely continental arms race ahead and once they were "involved" on the continent, they'd be forced to compete it in, sucking away resources. (the reality is I'd rather they just stayed on their own continent as they'll be large enough, but the argument is also valid).
- I told him that I believed the warm map setting was possible. I thought the jungles would have to be larger for the map to be wet, but the many rivers made wet possible (but didn't we make it temperate at gamestart???)
OTHER TEAMS:
- We discussed the possibility of a Gathering Storm - Vox Controli war again very briefly
Last edited by Arnelos on 24-01-2003 at 13:22
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jdjdjd
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of España
May 2002
time: 00:24
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Now heres some good stuff -
I told them of Mysticism.
To defuse his concerns, I told him we want to be the ones to trade them Writing and we want them to teach us Horseback Riding.
I hope this is OK. I'll let you know what he says about Mysticism.
quote:
Hello jdjdjd, trusted Spaniard!
I'm writing you because something concerns me. I have heard rumours that your great civilization might trade your Writing skills for the Horseback Riding skills of the Glory of War people.
Other rumours tell me that this deal is off.
I do not know which source to trust anymore. This troubles me.
I humbly ask you to shine your light on this issue. Since our Civ will always remain faithful and trustworthy, we do not want to offend any party involved. Especially not you, our Allies!
If you go through with the deal with GoW, please let me know as soon as possible. Otherwise, I will assume that it is your preference to trade with us, and that you will take care of cancelling it with GoW. We will have mastered the Horse skills in less than 5 turns now, so we'll be ready for a trade, in any case!
If you choose not to continue the trade with us, let me know.
We will, as always, keep this confidential between our peoples.
Your friend from Lux,
BigFurryMonster
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quote:
Hello BFM, Mi Amigo,
There has been many rumors, from what I can gather, from GoW. I know two things to be true,
1. We want to be the team to trade you Writing, so long as we can make a fair trade.
2. We want Horseback Riding, and based on discussions in the Palace, we want the Ottomans to instruct us.
Of some related interest, Wise Ally, we have stumbled upon a small village not too far from the great city of Madrid, from what I understand, and the villagers have been quite kind. They instructed our sages in the amazing technology of Mysticism. Mysticism es muy importante y muy bien.
We would like to know if you would like to work on a deal for Mysticism, as we can definitively trade it to you right away - Writing is still a few turns away. Please let us know your thoughts.
In the interim, we should keep the secret of this discovery between The Ottomans and The Spanish, so the world does not become jealous.
I look forward to your reply,
jdjdjd of España, Ambassador and Friend of the Ottoman Empire
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[/QUOTE]
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jdjdjd
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of España
May 2002
time: 00:24
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BFM's initial response.
I will let you know when he responds further,
quote:
Hello jdjdjd!
Just a quick note, since I have little time. I'm playing this game, you know, called 'real life' in which I need to go to parties and stuff. Great roleplay material, but I'll tell you all about it later.
I will reply in full tomorrow. In the mean time, it is good to know that we can send our finest Horseback Riders over to you to teach you all about this Art. They will arrive in a couple 'o turns.
The Mysticism skills are intriguing, but we are also curious what you will do with your Writing skills. Maybe you will later teach us how to make a drawing of our lands? That is not an area we're going to be very good at, I'm afraid.
Anyway - I'll post more tomorrow!
BFM
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can I assume we will go HBR for Writing or HBR for Mysticism? and do I have authority to make a deal? Any ideas on what we will trade for the other tech not sent in the HBR trade? Lastly, is it all right to stipulate that as part of the trade we will not trade HBR for ten turns and we ask they not trade our tech for 10 turns, if they will agree?
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jdjdjd
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of España
May 2002
time: 00:24
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More from BFM...not good news about ND.
quote:
Hello jdjdjd,
I promised you to write you a short note yesterday and I will. I think I said most of the things I want to say to you in yesterday's letter, though. I have one more thing to add: we at Lux Headquarters value the fact that we keep things secret as much as you do. As you put it: other civs might become jealous once they learn that you have Horseback Riding and we have Writing, or if they learn about our alliance at all. We trust our secrets with your civilization, though. Let me know what you plan to research next.
I have heard rumours about the fact that your civ claims a lot of land to the south. This is of no concern of ours, since we live in the north and we plan to stay there. But the civ of ND might be forced to press southward, which might interfere with your plans.
Be warned for these events, but we trust you can handle the situation. If, however, they choose to expand to the north, we will be forced to call upon our Alliance. Their civilization is the biggest at the moment, and things should not get out of hand. Rumours have it that they have 4 cities and are planning more (to the south). Let me know your thoughts on the situation!
BFM of Lux
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We need to rush our ND border settlements! This may be why no word from ND.
Will we research Maps next?
My response offering Mysticism and asking for the No-Trade Clause.
He sounds like we wants Writing, though, I will finalize the trade soon either way.
quote:
Dear BigFurryMonster,
Before going to your most recent thoughts: I would like to address a possible Tech Trade.
We would like Horseback Riding. We would like to trade to you Mysticism, as it is in hand and we can trade as soon as you have Hoseback Riding.
We would like to give the original tech owner a trade advantage - that is we will not trade Horseback Riding to anyone for 10 turns and we ask that you not trade Mysticism for ten turns. This will avoid our competing against each other at least for those ten turns, and therefore following the laws of supply & demand, make each tech more valuable. 
So, with the stipulation mentioned above - I refer to as the No-Trade Clause, we would like to trade our Mysticism for your Horseback Riding.
Once we have completed Writing, we can work on trade particulars at that time.
Is that acceptable? Let know your thoughts.
Now back to your most recent PM.... I am glad we both value are friendship and will keep it confidential. We hope that this friendship will prserve us both for centuries to come.
We are very interested in ND's settlements, since if they go South of the Jungle they are going to run right into us. Can you tell us how close you, GoW and ND are together and is ND trully pinned in?
We do want to expand south, but I'm afraid its size may be overstated, so competition from ND may not be good. But we will monitor ND, as you will, and hopefully they will not bother either of us. Should you hear anything specific from them we would appreciate a "heads up", and, we will do the same. Lets hope neither of us needs to call upon the Alliance, but at least each of us can sleep securely knowing we are not alone in a world of enemies.
I will let you know what our next tech research will be - last I heard it was MapMaking. What will Lux research next?
I await your reply,
jdjdjd of España
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History Guy
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Reads too many books...
Oct 2001
time: 23:24
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Good friends, please...[ooc] don't bite my head off. My server has been down since Tuesday evening, and so I've been unable to send any messages or, consequently, to receive them...[/ooc]
On the road to Neu Theban my party was stopped and attacked by a band of barbarians. Though I fought hard with my battle axe, they scattered our band. After I'd slain the last barbarian, I rallied my boys, but we were delayed for some days in returning.
Here is the letter from Neu Theban:
"Dear History Guy, my good friend from Spain,
i am delighted to hear that your business works fine and your squid dishes are desired all over your country. Our Scout Arne has received orders to buy some squid in one of your cities, and the whole parliament of ND is looking forward to taste them.
Thank you very much for warning Scout Arne to be careful of barbarians near your country, we feel that your sorrows about our people strengthen our friendship enormously. We are grateful you've offered to escort Arne and we'll stay near your forces as long as we feel treatened by the barbarians.
Just having closed down the "China file", we are confronted with a new treat from the north - the Ottomans have sent one of their warriors just to the doors of Neu Theben. They didn't dare to attack our well defended capital, but we take this as a declaration of war against us anyway. We are highly alarmed and urgently advise you to be careful, too. Considering this sudden and unexpected invasion we do not doubt the Ottomans are just as untrustworthily as the Chinese.
The consequences for both of us are that infrastructure has to be build up fast and military force should be strengthened.
We also have to face the fact that there is a great danger when Lux Invicta and the Warmongers decide to fight together against us. To avoid this situation we MAY be forced to work together with the Chinese for some time, although we would prefer to isolate them. As the Spanish people are our best friends we think it is very important to be honest about this matter. Of course we can't build up real friendship - like friendship between Spain and Arabia - with the chinese, but a temporally limited strategic alliance might be the best way to take at this moment.
The Ottomans are to be cursed that they force us to cooperate with the Chinese..
Remembering that Trip has lied to you in the past already about the "border agreement" we expect he won't admit that they've invaded our country. If he claims he knows from nothing please let us know, we'll send you a screenshot which prooves what they did.
Let's get on to our border agreement. Your proposal appears to be acceptable, although we have to discuss further details. Our State Department currently develops a detailed proposal, we'll send you a drawing which shows our conception as soon as it is finished.
I am happy we've already agreed to our next technology trade. Mathematics for Writing seems to be fair for both of us, and you got my promise we'll trade these technologies as soon as we have mastered them (we'll have math in about 10 rounds i think).
We wish you all the best and hope to hear from you soon.
Yours sincerly,
Picahulu, Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica"
I am, frankly, shocked. But unsurpised.
Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador to Neu Demogyptica
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History Guy
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Reads too many books...
Oct 2001
time: 23:24
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Thus I have written:
My dear friend Picahulu, Ambassador from the Master of Neu Theban, the glorious Sultan Borc,
I have to say that it was not until this day that I finally received your message, for my [ooc] server was down [/ooc] band of diplomats was attacked by footpads and bandits while crossing through the wilderness between our two countries. I fought valiantly with the battleaxe, losing many friends in the battle, smiting many barbarians in the fight. My diplomats were scattered, but I fought on, and slew every one of the vandals. Thus, we were greatly delayed. Please accept my greatest apologies.
Anyway, my fellow thane lords are reviewing your message to us.
Milord Togas, Great Despot Thane Lord King of Spain, Overlord of the Visigoth, Flattener of the Vandal, would very much like to meet with thy master, Sultan Borc, the gracious majesty of Neu Demogyptica, at his thane hall for a summit on settlements, treaties, borders, and etc. [out of character] That is, in our RP channel on mIRC. [/ooc] He would be greatly honored by his presence for the talks, and these will bind our two nations ever closer.
Rumors from the north suggest of a "great rumbling", that you are expanding north. Thus, we should even more urgently wish to meet with you to work out this settlement deal.
May the spirits bless you all, and watch over you.
Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador from Milord Togas King, Lord of Iberia, Overlord of the Visigoths, Flattener of the Vandals
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:24
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Señor de Calamari,
WOW!!!
gotta think about that before deciding what to do about it...
ND likely makes the better long-term friend than Lux and certainly than GoW, but we have something of an opportunity here as well....
Personally, my initial reaction is that we want to DISCOURAGE a conflict between Lux and ND. Lux and ND already now don't trust each other, which is good for us. The two of them actually starting a war is definately BAD for us, however. I don't know how it should be done yet (gotta think about that...), but we need to encourage our Lux Invicta allies to NOT attack ND (if possible).
An ND-Lux war puts GoW in a very favorable position, a position we do not want them to be in. ND-Lux animosity, on the other hand (without war) is very good for us coupled with the apparent distrust of GoW by ND and any Lux-GoW animosity we can stir up with this Horseback Riding tech trade 
So I suppose our goals should be:
1. Diplomatically isolate GoW
2. Make sure that while Lux and ND don't like each other, they don't go to war.
3. Make sure all of them (other than maybe GoW if that's not possible) are on friendly terms with us.
4. Play the "balancer" role who might act to prevent any individual power in the north from growing too powerful by swallowing another power.
have to think more about this... we DEFINATELY want to develop a friendship with ND and prevent an ND-Lux war if possible, though... a war there is just bad for our interests.
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History Guy
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Reads too many books...
Oct 2001
time: 23:24
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Quite. It would be very, very bad to see the two of them weakened by a full scale war, and see China grow at the same time. Two wasted nations will have no defense against their hordes when they strike, and I do not believe it has ever been a question of whether they strike, but when. They will come, and this entire continent had better be prepared.
My opinion is that the Neu Demogypticans do mean business. Apparently, a Lux Invictan warrior had stalked their settler before, and this I definitely believe, due to the poor placement of the resulting city, which would not befit these chaps, who seem to know EXACTLY what they are doing. I suspect that what they say on these matters is quite true, and the Lux Invictans are the aggressive party. Whether a Squid deficiency has anything to do with it or not, the Lux Invictans also appear to be warmongers. It would be in our best interests to get them and Neu Demogyptica on the same side, at least, that is, for now. Later, they should be dealt with, as they are very dangerous.
Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Squid Baron
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:24
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DAVOUT,
While what you bring up is possible, in this case I doubt it. Lux could very well have done just what ND claims they did and I honestly don't believe that ND could get away with claiming it if it weren't true (because we'd inevitably find out pretty quickly and that would end much chance of ND keeping us from either invading them or helping to invade them).
No... ND, because they're in the middle, has to know that they need to seek allies. Lux, because ND is in the middle, is probably figuring that ND is too weak and paranoid due to positioning to do anything about Lux's aggressive nature. Seriously... if ND were to go to war with Lux, the calculation on Lux's part is that the GoW and RP Team vultures will start circling the ND corpse...
Lux is doing this because they think they can get away with it.
While our alliance with Lux Invicta is important in terms of containing Glory of War, we should somehow let them know that ND is the wrong target and we will not support a war with ND - a war that would only serve to strengthen the position of GoW at all of our collective expense.
The problem is doing that tactfully.
Since I believe our alliance with Lux Invicta is DEFENSIVE rather than offensive (or at least I hope that's what we signed), we have no OBGLIGATION to help Lux Invicta against Neu Demogyptica.
Ideas... (just off the top of my head)
1 - We could tell Lux Invicta that it seems that Neu Demogyptica is attempting to ally with Glory of War. That if Lux Invicta goes to war with Neu Demogyptica it is near certain that Glory of War will take advantage of the situation to stab Lux Invicta in the back. The only question is whether they'll be able to extract a price from Neu Demogyptica for "giving them help". This has the benefit of being true...
2 - We could approach both Neu Demogyptica and Lux Invicta and attempt to impress upon them the importance of peace at this early stage between their powers. That some arrangement will simply have to be made between them, because starting a war between them will leave them both vulnerable - and neither of them can realistically trust Glory of War enough not to eventually sneak attack both of them. This has the problem of being the most probable scheme to get back to Glory of War and piss them off - but if it works, who cares? (risky, though)
3 - We could do the same attempt to encourage a treaty as #2, but prod about the worry of a GoW backstab in PRIVATE and attempt to minimize the degree to which they'll just pass that information on to GoW. This might work particularly well with Neu Demogyptica, which seems to have a healthy fear of ever trusting GoW.
That's not really a different plan This needs more thought...
I'll get back to this later perhaps with something more developed, but if anyone is free to use what I've laid out so far as a springboard
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:24
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A lot has happened in 24 hours.
1) GoW has outright LIED to us in their correspondence. Frankly, GoW is so clearly false that them telling us that they traded Lux Horseback Riding, that means that Lux is researching it themselves. There is no tech alliance. GoW is trying to bully us into trading with them.
Add these lies to the fact that they are probing us with their units leads me to conclude that they are a danger to Spain, they have no interest in friendship or cooperation, and they have zero credibility with me.
adaMada, you are to make one last attempt at reasoning with these ruffians and if that fails, I will assign another ambassador to pick up where you left off. Please let them know of the situation you have been placed in and the growing anger of your Despot.
Note: Unless something major changes, I WILL NOT trade or sell anything to GoW. They can and will go through a middle-man (Lux) but they will be limited in the # of techs they can trade for with Lux, as they have nothing to offer Lux for Writing, it will be difficult for them to come by.
Regarding ND: Continue to extend the hand of friendship to the Arabs. We also need to talk frankly with Lux, probably in a chat, about their plans for ND and try to convince them NOT to attack. I am pleased that Lux's encroachment makes ND turn to us as a friend. I WANT peace along our jungle border very badly and I want to ND to always be more afraid of their northern neighbors than us.
quote:
if ND were to go to war with Lux, the calculation on Lux's part is that the GoW and RP Team vultures will start circling the ND corpse...
Lux is doing this because they think they can get away with it. |
 I absolutely agree. Who is going to stop Lux? Us? We're their allies. They think we're going to join them and take a city or two ourselves. They think it's in our best interest to kill ND because ND is a threat to our Cow Valley expansions! They probably think they can easily bribe in GoW and ally in us, and jointly crush ND.
Maybe, years down the road, after we've fully settled the south and are looking to flex our muscles we will become a conquering nation (right around Conquistador time) ... but now is not our time. We want peace now, and time to fully develop. We may not have it, but we must work hard to try to maintain it.
History Guy,find out if ND's ambassador would like to meet and chat and, if so, what times are best for him. Send him my best wishes, tell him when we will have writing finishes and that we have mysticism to trade to them, if they are interested. Tell him that we DO NOT want to see Lux and ND go to war as it will only benefit the Warmongers (Lux and ND both paying them great sums to buy their loyalty). Tell him that we will try to speak to Lux to convince them to back off and leave ND alone.
jdjdjd, talk to Lux about their alleged probing of ND and explain to them why attacking ND right now would only help GoW. Let them know that we are worried that GoW might betray both ND and Lux in such a war, and that GoW is the only nation that would gain from it. Also tell them that GoW claims that they traded Lux Horseback Riding and that there is a deal where Lux cannot trade it to us. Please have them verify that this is untrue and let them know that we are loathe to believe it but that Panzer insists that it is true.
--Togas
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:24
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Diplomatically isolating Glory of War might not be a bad plan at this point... the trick is pulling it off.
Perhaps we can eventually convince Lux Invicta that ND is the wrong target... Glory of War is a smaller civilization, more backward, and has no potential friends to come to its rescue. Where if Lux were to attack ND, GoW could be expected to stab Lux in the back, if Lux attacks GoW, Lux might very well get the full-hearted aid and support of both ND and RP Team.
We eventually want to get to that point... but I'd think we'd want to be subtle about things first... probe to see what Lux Invicta's willingness would be to switch targets to Glory of War and make sure we don't outright suggest it unless we're pretty sure Lux won't blow the whole operation by passing this information on to Glory of War. Ultimately, it would be great if Glory of War remains as stupidly arrogant until they realize they're being shut out on techtrading.... then it's just a matter of waiting for the stacks of vet swordsmen to start flowing into their territory and finish them off once and for all.
Best yet... because we can't realistically make any territorial claims in the area Glory of War would likely control, we can negotiate with ND and Lux that we would get the area of land to Madrid's north in exchange for Lux and ND moving in the direction of GoW and taking their lands.
Ultimately, as the saying goes, "no alliance survives victory". With ND and Lux likely competing over captured GoW cities and land... AND the past of mild animosity between the two, it's not terribly unreasonable to expect that WE will serve as the balancer between them and can hope they will not ally with one another against us.
Then we can worry about the Gathering Storm and Vox Controli threats and the issue of Legoland and their continent all to themselves...
A lot of that would be tricky, though... I admit.
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24-01-2003 12:06
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