31-03-2003 03:18									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: [22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} even though at least for the nearest future, we would be sort of cautious to tick Bobians (RPers, to be honest) off [22:03] {DeepO} very true [22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} they are very close to us [22:03] {DeepO} I see [22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} and we are not fully developed military-wise [22:03] {DeepO} so the risk is even greater then thought [22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} so, while we are all for trading with you, we would probably hesistate a lot about embargoing Bobians [22:04] {DeepO} well, right now it's not really an option [22:04] {DeepO} we can't piss them off [22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} at least until we feel safe here [22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} yes [22:04] {DeepO} how long would you need to feel safe? [22:04] {DeepO} I mean a rough guess, of course [22:05] {DeepO} because the longer we wait, the bigger the risk [22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} 25-30 turns? [22:05] {DeepO} okay [22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} it is rather difficult to tell... [22:05] {DeepO} let's say we need about 15 turns to feel perfectly safe here [22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} we were lacking certain key techs for a long time [22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} understood [22:06] {DeepO} depending on when we get to knights, of course [22:06] {DeepO} well, I wouldn't propose to start embargoing now [22:06] {DeepO} but it really has to be an option [22:07] {DeepO} if we want to enter a long term deal [22:07] [10:07pm] {@zeit} but limiting the trades, perhaps [22:07] [10:07pm] {vondrack} hmmm... perhaps "offering worse deals"? [22:07] [10:07pm] {vondrack} yes [22:07] [10:07pm] {@zeit} putting NDA's on every deal with Bob [22:07] {DeepO} limiting: not really, delaying by 1 or 2 turns could already help [22:07] {DeepO} vondrack, one of the things that both teams are going to need to accept, is that sometimes short term gain is not that good when compared with long term gain [22:08] {DeepO} if this means that we sometimes have to refuse income on a tech by selling it, so be it [22:08] {DeepO} we were thinking on structures to compensate this, to divide the 'loss' between our two teams [22:08] [10:08pm] {vondrack} agreed [22:08] {DeepO} but it all depends on haw far we can get here [22:09] {DeepO} offering NDAs on all tech deals to the rest of the world might be the first thing to decide [22:09] {DeepO} if we both agree on a 10 turn NDA for any tech we are going to distribute in the future, we're one step farther [22:09] {DeepO} (not between ourselves, of course) [22:09] [10:09pm] {vondrack} like not allowing them to trade the techs to third parties? [22:09] {DeepO} yep, that's the idea [22:09] [10:09pm] {vondrack} that sounds reasonable [22:10] {DeepO} that way, we can at least prevent being ripped of on techs [22:10] {DeepO} so that who we sell to, just splits the price with their partner [22:10] {DeepO} there is one problem with this: we are going to need to expect NDAs on their techs too [22:10] {DeepO} which is one of the reasons we couldn't really offer it to Vox on the techs we just sent them [22:11] {DeepO} (we'll ask for it, though, but we can't demand) [22:11] {DeepO} because otherwise, MT has to be bought from Vox [22:11] {DeepO} and their price would be higher [22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} I see... [22:11] {DeepO} yeah, I know it's not ideal [22:11] {DeepO} Vox really is a diplo headache to us [22:11] [10:11pm] {@zeit} The arrangement from Vox will be changed in the future, though [22:11] {DeepO} very soon, I hope [22:12] [10:12pm] {@zeit} Hopefully they won't be around alot longer... [22:12] {DeepO} no, but that is another problem to us [22:12] {DeepO} because we don't really need Bobians on our continent [22:12] {DeepO} brb [22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} k [22:14] {DeepO} back [22:14] [10:14pm] {vondrack} good [22:14] {DeepO} sorry... my stomach ;( [22:14] [10:14pm] {vondrack} I feel for you [22:14] {DeepO} thanks [22:14] {DeepO} okay [22:14] [10:14pm] {vondrack} do you think Bobians have means to follow Voxes to your landmass? [22:14] {DeepO} yes they have [22:14] {DeepO} if the stick together [22:14] {DeepO} they [22:15] {DeepO} that's the whole clue, basically [22:15] {DeepO} Bob and our continent are so close, that if you build a port close enough, you can ferry 4 units with one galley, each turn [22:15] {DeepO} which is why the Vox city was so strategically important [22:16] {DeepO} and 4 riders... ouch [22:16] [10:16pm] {vondrack} the same would apply for us [22:16] {DeepO} ouch again [22:17] {DeepO} better adequately defend that part of your world [22:17] [10:17pm] {vondrack} fortunately, we are a bit further overseas ) [22:17] [10:17pm] {vondrack} yeah, we know... that's what we need those 25-30 turns for [22:17] {DeepO} okay, but in 25 turns, Vox might have disappeared from this game [22:18] {DeepO} we could certainly take them out, defending our own territory, in that time span [22:18] {DeepO} we have been building iinfrastructure, as said, and it starts to pay of [22:18] {DeepO} but you're not doing that bad either... about 9 cities yourself, right? [22:18] [10:18pm] {vondrack} just a sec [22:18] [10:18pm] {vondrack} I will check [22:19] [10:19pm] {vondrack} only 8 [22:19] [10:19pm] {@zeit} close enough, DeepO [22:19] {DeepO} aha, could also be so... we're a bit farther ahead [22:19] {DeepO} (not much, but blame that on disease) [22:20] {DeepO} so our production can match anyone... [22:20] {DeepO} btw, RP has about the same numbers [22:20] {DeepO} ND and GoW are around 7 cities (a little less, maybe) [22:20] {DeepO} Vox has 5, AFAIK [22:21] {DeepO} okay, let's get to the other deals [22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} ok [22:21] {DeepO} first of all MT [22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} go ahead [22:21] [10:21pm] {redstar1} where'd you get the intel? [22:21] {DeepO} analysis [22:21] {DeepO} but it's good to check [22:21] {DeepO} I was pretty sure on your 8 cities [22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} aha... something we are not that good in, apparently [22:22] {DeepO} but had to say one more, so you wouldn't get offended [22:22] {DeepO} bah, some things GS is superb in [22:22] {DeepO} others not so [22:22] {DeepO} I'm not so economical as eg nbarclay, or Aeson [22:22] {DeepO} and war is purely a Theseus / Arrian thing [22:23] {DeepO} but these guys have not been around a lot [22:23] {DeepO} noothing to do [22:23] [10:23pm] {vondrack} all the Strat Forum regulars, I know... [22:23] {DeepO} [22:23] {DeepO} whiich is our problem [22:23] {DeepO} nobody wants to fully trade with us [22:23] {DeepO} thinking we'll backstab, perhaps... [22:24] {DeepO} which is absolutely not needed, and no intention of ours [22:24] [10:24pm] {redstar1} are you saying we sjhouldn't be trading with you? [22:24] {DeepO} not at all [22:24] [10:24pm] {redstar1} j/k [22:24] {DeepO} but know that we have some kind of stigma we carry [22:24] [10:24pm] {redstar1} not a problem [22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} hmmm, I would think just the opposite - for such people, it would be nothing to be proud of if all they'd do would be a nice backstab... [22:24] [10:24pm] {redstar1} i forsee a bright future for us [22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} but I may be wrong, of course... ) [22:24] {DeepO} so if word would leak out that we are getting very close, the willingness of others to deal with you might drop [22:25] {DeepO} well, backstabbing is not an option, really [22:25] {DeepO} we agreed to be the most honorable team on the game, and we will do exactly that [22:25] {DeepO} if it means we won't win, no problem whatsoever [22:26] {DeepO} at least we had good fun [22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} [22:26] {DeepO} so techs: [22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} ok [22:26] {DeepO} i suggest we let this simmer a bit [22:26] {DeepO} so both teams can think on what they want to accomplish [22:26] {DeepO} and what they would agree to give up with [22:27] {DeepO} on our side, one thiing is certain, we will drop Vox in the future [22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} that is a good idea, I agree [22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} re: simmering [22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} perhaps re: Voxes, too ) [22:27] {DeepO} if keeping Vox around is going to hamper us with Lego [22:27] {DeepO} [22:27] {DeepO} but, we've got the first steps to take [22:27] {DeepO} coordinating our research [22:28] [10:28pm] {@zeit} coordinating deals with Bob, perhaps [22:28] {DeepO} first of all, we see reachin knights as 1st prioirity [22:28] {DeepO} i don't know where you stand on this [22:28] {DeepO} we are set to start on feudalism [22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} hmm... I hope we will complement you nicely [22:28] {DeepO} ok [22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} we do not really look towards Feu [22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} as we have our Mercs [22:28] {DeepO} true [22:28] [10:28pm] {redstar1} we see atomic weapons as priority [22:28] [10:28pm] {redstar1} [22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} so Feu alone is not worth the research for us [22:29] {DeepO} but we first of all need it for knights [22:29] {DeepO} not feudalism [22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} Chivalry... oh, that will something different [22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} right, yes [22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} but: [22:29] {DeepO} we are not going to defend with pikes, if we can attack with knights [22:29] {DeepO} yes? [22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} Feudalism would really be choice #3 for us [22:29] {DeepO} which is #2? [22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} so if you are determined to go for it [22:30] {DeepO} I know #1 [22:30] [10:30pm] {vondrack} then you may rest assured we will make a good deal in the future [22:30] {DeepO} okay, no problem [22:30] {DeepO} we shold complement... [22:30] [10:30pm] {redstar1} i'm off to bed lads [22:30] [10:30pm] {redstar1} i'll read the log tomorrow [22:30] {DeepO} I take it you wouldn need MT first? [22:30] [10:30pm] {vondrack} ok, g'night! [22:30] [10:30pm] {vondrack} yes [22:30] {DeepO} bye, redstar1 [22:30] [10:30pm] {@zeit} bye bye [22:31] [10:31pm] redstar1 (d@host81-132-37-22.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has parted. «3 people» [22:31] {DeepO} you are going to get in anarchy, next turn, no? [22:31] {DeepO} so that shuld mean that we can see which tech Vox gives us [22:31] {DeepO} and if it's different from MT, get you working on MT [22:31] {DeepO} while we get feud [22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} nope, I do not think so... we have several builds under way, which we would like to finish first [22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} units, to be exact [22:31] {DeepO} maybe it would be best if, in case we don't get MT from Vox, we research it [22:32] {DeepO} ah, okay [22:32] {DeepO} any eta? [22:32] [10:32pm] {vondrack} not yet [22:32] {DeepO} no matter [22:32] [10:32pm] {vondrack} it will probably take a couple of turns [22:32] {DeepO} ok [22:32] {DeepO} wht are you researching now? [22:32] {DeepO} if I may ask [22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} hmmm... dunno if it is not supposed to be secret... hell, doesn't matter... nothing, actually [22:33] {DeepO} that's best [22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} we need some cash for upgrades [22:33] {DeepO} I was going to suggest that [22:33] {DeepO} okay, no prob [22:33] {DeepO} you should receive 80 gold next turn [22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} [22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} yes, thank you! [22:33] {DeepO} so, let's say you will stay on cash, until we know what Vox gives at least [22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} yes, that is quite likely [22:34] {DeepO} if they don't give MT, we start on that [22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} you = GS? [22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} or us? [22:34] {DeepO} simply because we have the best research, and MT is the most expensive [22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} yeah, I see [22:34] {DeepO} you=lego [22:35] {DeepO} if they give MT, we will go on with feu [22:35] {DeepO} and you can research #3 (forgot which [22:35] {DeepO} or even theology, perhaps [22:35] {DeepO} this should take both of us to knights asap [22:35] [10:35pm] {vondrack} yes, those are fine options [22:36] {DeepO} maybe one problem: if you're not interested in feu, I take it that wonder build yur going for is not supposed to be a prebuild for Sun Tsu? [22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} nope [22:36] {DeepO} we kind of thought that would have been a good option for you [22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} Sun Tsu? [22:37] {DeepO} but happyness would perhaps be fine too [22:37] {DeepO} yeah [22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} we are more concerned about happiness [22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} we got screwed on luxuries [22:37] {DeepO} no barracks to pay upkeep for [22:37] {DeepO} ah, ok [22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} and we kind a fear that Bobians will simply embargo us on them [22:37] {DeepO} of course, we would like to start trading those asap [22:37] {DeepO} yeah, i was going to mention that [22:37] {DeepO} we don't have many sorts (2) [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} us only 1 [22:38] {DeepO} actually, 1 at the moment, but we should be able to get 2 [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} Dyes, to be price [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} *precise [22:38] {DeepO} furs here [22:38] {DeepO} incent later... [22:38] {DeepO} are you considering getting monarchy somewhere? [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} not really [22:39] {DeepO} we have been asking around, but nobody is interested... [22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} not viable for us [22:39] {DeepO} only for the HG, of course [22:39] {DeepO} because there is no WW in MP [22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} yes [22:39] {DeepO} well, I'm not sure if I can offer you anything specific on MT right now [22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} I understand that [22:40] {DeepO} so would it be an option for you, if we simply promise to send it immediately [22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} we went ahead with our deal, full aware of that MT would be negotiated later [22:40] {DeepO} and discuss price in the coming few days? [22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} I would rather have the price set in advance, if you do not mind [22:41] {DeepO} I was proposing to make this one a gold trade too, simply because it would be easier from then on [22:41] {DeepO} okay [22:41] {DeepO} in that case, I was thinking (personally), to set it below half of the current beaker cost [22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} as we have seen with our úprevious deal, it is sometimes easy to misunderstand the extend which the other party aims for [22:41] {DeepO} meaning if you're the 3rd to get it, we offer you less then half that price. [22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} hmmm.... I will keep that it mind [22:42] {DeepO} but we'll need to discuss things with Vox here first [22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} understood [22:42] {DeepO} well... the problem is of course, that if possible, we will offer it to Bob too [22:42] {DeepO} in which case, your price will drop considerably [22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} sure, we expect that [22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} I mean: we expect you would offer it to Bobians ) [22:43] {DeepO} but really, there is too few to say about that, I will get back to you in PM [22:43] {DeepO} well, we don't know if we're allowed to [22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} ok, thanks [22:43] {DeepO} because if Vox is thinking on resettling Bob, the have to keep something behind to pay for the use of land [22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} that's true [22:43] {DeepO} so that is going to be a tricky situation [22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} but I doubt their tech would be enough [22:44] {DeepO} okay, further, I promise I will try to more precisly set out some rough document, detailing our plans for future coop [22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} Bobians are very touchy when it comes to their landmass [22:44] {DeepO} true [22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} ok, good idea [22:45] {DeepO} but I wonder how much of this is simply RP pulling strings on the puppets [22:45] {DeepO} yeah, it's good to see you share some of our concerns [22:45] {DeepO} and that military threat is also well-known to you [22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} yes, it is [22:45] {DeepO} I take it you are first of all interested in defending, not attacking? [22:46] {DeepO} or do you feel the urge for new land soon too? [22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} of course - we are "builders" by definition ) [22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} so we build [22:46] {DeepO} well, we have been builders, but were this is going to lead, I don't know [22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} not wage war, unless inevitable [22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} we are currently in no shape to try hopping overseas [22:46] {DeepO} and as said before, perhaps the only way of stopping Bob is going to be military [22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} especially since the closest neighbour is RPers with their huge military [22:47] {DeepO} well... a lot can change in a few turns [22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} that's true, of course [22:47] {DeepO} let's see what those riders are going to do to Bob first [22:47] {DeepO} that could become very interesting [22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} agreed [22:48] {DeepO} if it means GoW would be gone, we simply need to epxand onto Bob [22:48] {DeepO} but I don't think we'll mind that hard, our territory is almost fully build [22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} to prevent ND & RPers from becoming even stronger? [22:48] {DeepO} yes [22:48] {DeepO} ND especially [22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} I see [22:49] [10:49pm] {vondrack} yes [22:49] {DeepO} that's one good team, playing there [22:49] {DeepO} they have every reason to be so cocky in their negotiations [22:49] {DeepO} (and no, it's not a language thing) [22:50] {DeepO} so, I'll get back to you on plans for deals [22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} ok [22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} thanks a lot [22:50] {DeepO} I suggest you do the same, and we compare notes next chat [22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} will do [22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} next Sunday, 9pm GMT? [22:50] {DeepO} and in the mean time, we will get you updated on the tech situation [22:51] {DeepO} and come up with a deal on MT [22:51] {DeepO} yeah, 9pm would be superb [22:51] {DeepO} [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} great [22:51] {DeepO} anything else? [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} yeah... those bloody tax forms... ) [22:51] {DeepO} lol [22:51] [10:51pm] {@zeit} lol [22:51] {DeepO} sorry to hear that [22:52] {DeepO} zeit, you're still here? [22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} well, it is just once in a year time, thankfully [22:52] [10:52pm] {@zeit} we all have our problems- i'll have about 5 hours of sleep this night [22:52] {DeepO} do you have anything further to ask [22:52] [10:52pm] {@zeit} call me an addict... [22:52] {DeepO} [22:52] {DeepO} 5 hours should be enough [22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} I believe that you have told me so much that I will need some time to mull it over [22:52] {DeepO} not that I don't get another 9 or so [22:52] {DeepO} that's okay [22:52] {DeepO} I hope it has been informative [22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} thanks for everything [22:52] {DeepO} never be afraid to ask [22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} yes, it was [22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} I appreciate that [22:53] {DeepO} as you can see, i've got lots of opinions to share [22:53] [10:53pm] {@zeit} see you next sunday. bye! [22:53] {DeepO} bye! [22:53] [10:53pm] Quits: zeit (Zeit@slip139-92-208-118.tel.il.prserv.net) (Quit [22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} well, then, both of you: take care & good luck! [22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} bye [22:53] {DeepO} bye [22:53] [10:53pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has parted. «1 person» [23:15] *** Disconnected Session Close: Sun Mar 30 23:15:32 2003

	31-03-2003 21:43									#62
	Full PM-box? Change here!

A PM titled "Hi trade buddies!"

quote: Hi redstar1, Nice to know there were no problems, let's hope this trend continues As to Monotheism: from one side I'm happy, as it will make deals probably easier to strike. OTOH, though, it would have been nice if you mentioned this in chat, just between friends. It would have made us focus more on striking a deal right then (if this was your intention, of course). But it's okay, the sooner you get it, the better. See you next Sunday (possibly before then too ) DeepO quote: DeepO, Seems our trades went to plan, great stuff! Nice doing business with you. Hope we can deal a lot more in the future. Not sure there is anything urgent to discuss so unless you can think of anything then I guess the sunday night chat is the best time to catch up. Oh, we got a good deal on Mono from another source so no need to worry ourselves on that one! Regards Redstar1

	05-04-2003 18:26									#63
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Dear redstar1, vondrack, and quantum_mechani, I was going to mention this in chat tomorrow, but it may be better to offer this now, so you can discuss this proposal amongst yourselves first. Debate tomorrow will only get more focussed We're currently, as agreed, on our way towards Feudalism. However, it seems the rest of the world, including you, is not really up to speed yet, too many issues need attention, and research is nobody's priority, it seems. We understand that defense can be more important, however as we're not so pressed, maybe we can speed up things a little on the research side of things. There has been a bit of talk on offering feudalism to everybody in the world at the same time, and quite soon too. Maybe we can after that fit in another tech, and end at about the same moment other teams get the tech they are currently going for. In your case, it would seem best to us that we deal with this tech separately from another one: by the time you get Theology, we would have, or be very close to discovering Chivalry. So, our proposal: We offer you Feudalism for 200 gold, or a 12 gpt 'loan' for 20 turns. It comes with an NDA, in that you are not allowed to trade it to any other team for 10 turns after receiving it. Further, we will guarantee that at the moment of offering, we will be the only team with access to the technology, and nobody else will be able to research it independently, and thus sell it to you, for at least 5 more turns. I hope you like these terms, they are quite fair in our eyes. We can discuss other options of payment, but the price will be fixed, it could however be transformed in other tradeable stuff Re: long term tech deal: I've got quite a few ideas on that, but haven't found any time this week to put them on paper. I would be thrilled to discuss them, and see your view on it. But let's keep it for the chat And one point of advice: don't stay in despotism too long, the sooner you get to republic, the better. Settlers and other units can be rushed easily with the extra cash it generates, if that is your concern. DeepO

	07-04-2003 02:15									#64
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: [22:24] [10:24pm] redstar1 (d@host213-123-149-80.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined. «3 people» [22:24] [10:24pm] {redstar1} hey [22:24] [10:24pm] {redstar1} not here long [22:24] {DeepO} hi! [22:24] [10:24pm] {@zeit} hello there [22:24] {DeepO} I was hoping you got my message [22:24] {DeepO} ok, so let's be fast then [22:24] {DeepO} did you get my last message [22:24] {DeepO} ? [22:25] [10:25pm] {redstar1} sure [22:25] {DeepO} what do you think of it? [22:25] [10:25pm] {redstar1} yeah the feud deal one? [22:25] {DeepO} yeah [22:25] [10:25pm] {@zeit} i'll let you guys be alone for a little while [22:25] [10:25pm] {redstar1} still discussing it, tbh feud isn't a priority for us [22:25] {DeepO} I can understand [22:25] [10:25pm] {redstar1} we'd be more interested in a deal for feudalism+ chivalry [22:25] {DeepO} the problem is, the way our research is going, we will have chivalry by the time you can finish theo [22:26] [10:26pm] {redstar1} good research eh? [22:26] {DeepO} so, price isn't the issue, we can make something combined with 2 techs on our side, 1 one your, and some gold for compensation [22:26] {DeepO} yeah... [22:26] {DeepO} you don't want to know [22:26] [10:26pm] {redstar1} hehe [22:26] {DeepO} but it's safe to say we are over double yours, for the time being [22:26] [10:26pm] {redstar1} most probably [22:26] [10:26pm] {redstar1} we haven't switched govt yet [22:27] {DeepO} well... any plans on getting to rep ? [22:27] [10:27pm] {redstar1} yeah we have a fair idea on what we plan to do [22:27] [10:27pm] {redstar1} getting some infrastructure sorted before the anarchy [22:27] {DeepO} ok. I wouldn't ask, but in this case, it affects us too... simply curious here [22:27] [10:27pm] {redstar1} shouldn't be too long [22:28] {DeepO} sure, but I hope you're doing it for pop rushing, as otherwise there is little point in delaying [22:28] {DeepO} (or it should concern an aquaduct, perhaps) [22:28] [10:28pm] {redstar1} it wouldn't be any secret about poprushing [22:28] {DeepO} well, anyway, assuming you will be able to get to theo fast, we still have a bit of a problem [22:29] {DeepO} which we could both exploit, buut GS alone not so [22:29] [10:29pm] {redstar1} yeah we aren't sure on our tech/trade strategy yet [22:29] {DeepO} the thing is: it's practically certain that war will break out on Bob, the moment they get theirs UUs [22:29] [10:29pm] {redstar1} trying to get a bit of cash together as well, for trades and maybe helping things along [22:29] {DeepO} which means that everythiing will be spend on upgrades, instead of on tech [22:29] {DeepO} (Bob) [22:30] {DeepO} so, either research halts for a while, because we do the same [22:30] [10:30pm] {redstar1} yeah we can understand that [22:30] {DeepO} or we try to get some scheme going, in which we dictate research pace, and Bob pays us the gold we need [22:30] {DeepO} we want to try this out with Feud [22:30] [10:30pm] {redstar1} what i would suggest is give us a couple more days on the deal outlined by yourself [22:30] [10:30pm] {redstar1} until we have a better idea of where we are going [22:30] {DeepO} sure, no problem [22:30] [10:30pm] {redstar1} and what resources we have etc [22:31] {DeepO} we are still very hard discussing this ourselves [22:31] {DeepO} but it's hard to do this, if we don't know Lego's stance [22:31] [10:31pm] {redstar1} is it ok for Nimitz to take over here? [22:31] {DeepO} sure, just invite him [22:31] [10:31pm] {redstar1} he is Foreign minister [22:31] [10:31pm] DeepO sets mode: +o redstar1 [22:32] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User Nimitz has been invited to: #milkshake [22:32] [10:32pm] *apolyton.net(@#milkshake)* DeepO invited Nimitz into channel #milkshake. [22:32] [10:32pm] {@redstar1} i apologise but i'm a bit busy [22:32] {DeepO} np [22:32] {DeepO} I don't have all the time of the world either [22:32] {DeepO} buut some of these things need to be discussed [22:32] [10:32pm] Nimitz (Nimitz@user-v8o1d02.dialup.mindspring.com) has joined. «4 people» [22:32] {DeepO} hi! [22:32] [10:32pm] {@redstar1} hey nimitz [22:32] [10:32pm] {Nimitz} hello [22:32] {DeepO} quick recap [22:32] [10:32pm] {@redstar1} i have to go afk but i'll keep a lookout and a log: [22:32] {DeepO} okay [22:32] [10:32pm] {Nimitz} ok [22:33] {DeepO} so, recap [22:33] {DeepO} . I was asking on the deal we send you [22:33] {DeepO} on feud [22:33] {DeepO} and mentiongin that the way we get paid is not an issue to us [22:33] [10:33pm] {Nimitz} just a sec got a PM to check [22:33] {DeepO} so, if you would rather have a combined chivalry + feud - theo + gold deal, np [22:33] {DeepO} okay [22:34] {DeepO} I'll type a little [22:34] {DeepO} the thing is, we too are at crossroads in the game [22:34] {DeepO} we have a great opportunity here, but we are uncertain we want to do it, and we can't do it alone [22:34] {DeepO} atm, our research is huge, compared to the other teams [22:35] {DeepO} and once rep will come, this will change [22:35] {DeepO} but because Bob will get into a war pretty soon, most likely the moment they get knights [22:35] {DeepO} research will practically halt on their side [22:35] {DeepO} so, we can either stop ourselves, as we also need money (and you too) [22:36] {DeepO} or, we can research at full speed, and let the others pay for our tech slider [22:36] {DeepO} in thiis last case, we need a partner: Lego [22:36] {DeepO} again, this is only a wild idea, and no proposal, but I just want to let you know one of the possibilities in this game [22:36] {DeepO} and want to hear your ideas on it [22:36] {DeepO} also, it isn't very urgent [22:37] {DeepO} next few techs are not that important [22:37] {DeepO} buut we are trying the idea out on Feud [22:37] {DeepO} in that, we want everyone of the world to pay for a tech, that we are the only ones investing beakers in [22:37] {DeepO} there are a lot of ways in which this can go wrong [22:38] {DeepO} but in general, if we can make other teams (read Bob) dependent on us, we would be realitvely safe [22:38] {DeepO} and in a good position to win this game [22:38] {DeepO} (There are other options of winning the game, some of which are also being discussed on our boards right now) [22:39] {DeepO} okay. that's enough text for the moment, let's hear your opinions [22:39] {DeepO} (when you get back) [22:40] {DeepO} anybody there? [22:41] [10:41pm] Quits: Nimitz (Nimitz@user-v8o1d02.dialup.mindspring.com) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Nimitz2))) [22:42] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User Nimitz has been invited to: #milkshake [22:42] [10:42pm] *apolyton.net(@#milkshake)* DeepO invited Nimitz into channel #milkshake. [22:42] [10:42pm] Nimitz (Nimitz@user-v8o1d2a.dialup.mindspring.com) has joined. «4 people» [22:42] {DeepO} ghosting? [22:43] [10:43pm] {Nimitz} yes [22:43] {DeepO} Nimitz, were you able to read the thing I typed earlier? [22:43] [10:43pm] {Nimitz} not really [22:44] {DeepO} okay... [22:44] {DeepO} I'm going to get back in my buffer, and copy stuff [22:44] {DeepO} ... [22:44] {DeepO} I'll type a little [22:44] {DeepO} the thing is, we too are at crossroads in the game [22:44] {DeepO} we have a great opportunity here, but we are uncertain we want to do it, and we can't do it alone [22:45] {DeepO} atm, our research is huge, compared to the other teams [22:45] {DeepO} and once rep will come, this will change [22:45] {DeepO} but because Bob will get into a war pretty soon, most likely the moment they get knights [22:45] {DeepO} research will practically halt on their side [22:45] {DeepO} so, we can either stop ourselves, as we also need money (and you too) [22:45] {DeepO} or, we can research at full speed, and let the others pay for our tech slider [22:45] {DeepO} in thiis last case, we need a partner: Lego [22:45] {DeepO} again, this is only a wild idea, and no proposal, but I just want to let you know one of the possibilities in this game [22:45] {DeepO} and want to hear your ideas on it [22:45] {DeepO} also, it isn't very urgent [22:45] {DeepO} next few techs are not that important [22:45] {DeepO} buut we are trying the idea out on Feud [22:45] {DeepO} in that, we want everyone of the world to pay for a tech, that we are the only ones investing beakers in [22:45] {DeepO} there are a lot of ways in which this can go wrong [22:45] {DeepO} but in general, if we can make other teams (read Bob) dependent on us, we would be realitvely safe [22:46] {DeepO} and in a good position to win this game [22:46] {DeepO} (There are other options of winning the game, some of which are also being discussed on our boards right now) [22:46] {DeepO} okay. that's enough text for the moment, let's hear your opinions [22:47] [10:47pm] {Nimitz} yes [22:47] {DeepO} yes? [22:47] [10:47pm] DeepO sets mode: +o Nimitz [22:47] [10:47pm] {@Nimitz} well we are worried about the the other team they might turn on us if we started to run the reseach [22:48] {DeepO} true [22:48] {DeepO} which is also a concern [22:48] {DeepO} buut if we would be fair, and poowerful [22:48] {DeepO} we might be able to make it something of an advantage for them too [22:48] {DeepO} in that they don't need to worry about research, they get it for a cheap price [22:49] {DeepO} (btw, don't mind my type style, today is a double-vowel day, it seems ) [22:49] [10:49pm] {@Nimitz} they don't care they would fear use just for the fact we can turn off the spicet [22:49] [10:49pm] {@Nimitz} *spicket [22:49] {DeepO} spicket? [22:49] {DeepO} sorry, don't understand [22:50] [10:50pm] {@Nimitz} fauset [22:50] {DeepO} nm, I think I can get the idea (fauset?) [22:50] {DeepO} well, maybe [22:50] {DeepO} but it depends on other fctors [22:50] {DeepO} right now, they can't really invade us [22:50] {DeepO} and I don't think Lego is at particular risk either [22:51] {DeepO} so, the moment you can claim your territory coast to coast, and have a decent defense force, they will think twice [22:51] {DeepO} in our case, this moment will come relatively early [22:51] {DeepO} and I thought you needed about 20 turns from now on to get there [22:52] [10:52pm] {@Nimitz} not sure myself [22:52] {DeepO} well, anyway, it's always a case of portaying to be ready, more then being ready [22:52] {DeepO} which is why, from time to time, we mention Theseus and Arrian in dipllo conversation, it keeps us safe [22:53] {DeepO} all this can only start the moment war breaks out at Bob [22:53] [10:53pm] {@Nimitz} yes [22:53] {DeepO} and this will be soon [22:53] {DeepO} as either Vox wil create some truble very soon [22:54] {DeepO} or we simply need to wait for riders [22:54] {DeepO} we have a reasonable assurance from teams that that moment will get decisive [22:54] [10:54pm] {@Nimitz} how far are you from Feu. [22:54] {DeepO} we hope GoW wins... [22:54] {DeepO} well, it depends [22:54] {DeepO} right now, I thought we had 8 turns left, if we don't want to lose any cash in the progress [22:55] {DeepO} (could be 6 in the mean time, I'm a few turns behind on info) [22:55] {DeepO} but, there were more then one voice asking to speed it up [22:55] {DeepO} if we can get (part of) the cost of this elsewhere [22:55] {DeepO} If we wold really go for it, we should finish in 4 turns or so [22:56] {DeepO} ... yes republic does marvelous things to your commerce [22:56] [10:56pm] {@Nimitz} when you have libaries [22:56] {DeepO} libraries are another discussion [22:56] {DeepO} another option would be to go slower on this [22:56] {DeepO} and use the saved cash to do mass infrastructure rushing [22:57] {DeepO} another idea we were thinking on [22:57] {DeepO} but in this case, the difference between us, and the other team that is researching Feud would demisnish [22:57] {DeepO} and probably mean that they will research it independently [22:57] {DeepO} we can't have that, or our scheme stops working [22:58] [10:58pm] {@Nimitz} well GoW is after it [22:59] {DeepO} so.. basically... we're at crossroads, and not sure how to proceed [22:59] {DeepO} GoW: we know [22:59] {DeepO} but I couldn't tell you that, as they told us in private [22:59] {DeepO} so it had to come from you first... [22:59] {DeepO} (yeah, stupid honor rule we want to keep ) [23:00] {DeepO} so, maybe it's good to hear more from Lego, to see if they would like such a scheme [23:00] {DeepO} because it's obvious we can't do this alone [23:01] {DeepO} we need some kind of tech-partner, to split the costs, and the gains [23:01] {DeepO} I fully understand this does not get decided in a week time [23:01] {DeepO} so, maybe it's best to build our relation up [23:01] {DeepO} and go one step at the time [23:02] {DeepO} (also, changing situations in the world can be reacted too) [23:02] {DeepO} so... first deal first [23:02] [11:02pm] {@Nimitz} yes we know about trade taking time [23:02] {DeepO} would you be interested in either getting feud for gold from us [23:02] {DeepO} or as part of a 2 tech deal? [23:03] [11:03pm] {@Nimitz} most likely a deal down the rode like two tech one [23:03] {DeepO} you want to wait? [23:03] {DeepO} or did I read that incorrectly [23:04] [11:04pm] {@Nimitz} yes say like 5 turns for us to make a deal for Fue and Chivalry [23:04] {DeepO} np [23:04] {DeepO} some ideas we wer thinking on: [23:06] {DeepO} 1. we give you feud + knight, you give theo + gold compensation ( a fair one, of course). Seeing as we will deliver feud a lot sooner, maybe it would be best to deicde on the compensation first, and trade that to feud, later on doing a straight theo-chivalry exchange [23:06] {DeepO} 2. We handle feud like we do with all teams, compensating later in a separate deal [23:07] {DeepO} 3. we wait on feud, and exchange it once theo is ready (by which time, we should have chivalry). Problem here is, that we want to avoid that you get the opportunity to buy it at a lower price from someone who we sold it to, at a time our NDA would have expired. Wouldn't be very fair to us [23:07] {DeepO} 4. Any other things you might want to come up with [23:08] {DeepO} we have at least 4 turns to decide, but some kind of prinicpal agreement on which path to follow would be nice to have [23:08] {DeepO} allivates stress [23:08] {DeepO} alliviates [23:08] {DeepO} I thnk [23:08] {DeepO} think [23:09] [11:09pm] {@Nimitz} ok let me let me take this back to the team and I'mm have general answer by tomarrow [23:09] {DeepO} tomorrow would be superb, really, there is no problem if you wait 2 days [23:09] [11:09pm] {@Nimitz} ok [23:09] {DeepO} as to the rest: would it be too much to ask if you have a rough eta on theo yet? [23:10] {DeepO} and have you had any conversations with other teams, trying to find out if some are going for it too? [23:10] [11:10pm] {@Nimitz} 20 turns at the latest [23:10] {DeepO} okay. we should have chivalry by then at any rate [23:10] {DeepO} so that's good to hear... also not too late for others to be first in getting it [23:11] [11:11pm] {@Nimitz} no talks yet. [23:11] [11:11pm] {@Nimitz} well gtg bye [23:11] {DeepO} planning on? [23:11] {DeepO} bye, see you next sunday [23:11] [11:11pm] {@Nimitz} not that I know of [23:11] [11:11pm] {@Nimitz} bye [23:11] [11:11pm] Nimitz (Nimitz@user-v8o1d2a.dialup.mindspring.com) has parted. «3 people» Session Close: Sun Apr 06 23:14:35 2003

	07-04-2003 03:36									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Hi Vondrack! No problem, although I was kind of looking out for a bit more interaction... I do know the burdens of real life, though, and didn't had too much time in chat either. I hope enough was said, so you get a better idea of where we are thinking of, there is a lot of long term planning / discussion going on in GS. I can imagine your team is no different, so let's try to be more prepared next week. I'm sure that we can grow to a favourable deal in the future DeepO quote: Hello, DeepO! Just wanted to apologize for missing the chat. I was really looking forward to it, but the real life sort of interfered... I came back online only few minutes ago. Judging from a couple of notes in our own chatroom, I gather redstar1 and Nimitz were present... so I hope to be able to read the chatlog tomorrow. I hope to be able to join you next week. Cheers, Radek aka vondrack Legoland

	12-04-2003 00:19									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Nimitz, quantum_mechani, redstar1, vondrack, (I was unsure who to send it to, so I just picked all) You can imagine that the times are rather hectic, lately, so my apologies for not getting in touch sooner. But I wanted to give you an update... Feudalism should be ours in normally 2, at most 3 turns. At which time we'll offer it to the world (well, not Vox, naturally). We have been discussing to delay it, using the time for upgrade and rush money, but it won't be needed. The Voxians have given us an opportunity to get to our GA before their main force is even in sight, money isn't really a problem any more. I know you were still discussing it, but have you reached any conclusion in-team on our last proposal (200 gold or 12 gpt, plus 10 turn NDA)? We are certain no other team is going to be able to provide it before our NDAs run out, as nobody besides us is currently researching the tech. Further, a bit of update on the war with Vox: currently, all action is limited to a couple of border skirmishes. They took us a little by surprise, we were looking towards their territory as one of the options for future expansion, but not so soon. So, we were not fully prepared, however we can react very quickly. The first few turns of the war may get tense, we might lose 1 or 2 cities at most depending on what Vox will launch at us, but there is no way they are going to keep up with our production, in our GA we're probably over 3 times as productive as them. It most likely was a Live or Die choice for Vox, we can see their cities now (they have sold us their map, accepting the gold in the same turn as killing Grog), and half of them have been pop-rushed to size 1. Also, but you probably now this already, they never launched an attack towards Bob, that was a ruse. They tricked us though Other insights in the current situation: RP is up to it again. Be aware of Togas, he is using every dirty trick he knows to take advantage of the situation. RP has asked us whether we want to help take care of Legoland, as Legoland would be the biggest competitor on their huge territory if left alone. The same moment, they were asking GoW to get a trade embargo against us, and are sponsoring Vox with cash to attack us, hoping to prune us. Luckily for us, GoW is starting to see their evil machinations, maybe we can isolate RP a little. Vox won't be around long enough to be influenced by Togas' 'requests' or 'unofficial communications' either Togas should take a signature of "divide and Conquer", at least the first part of that is working splendidly. See you next Sunday, DeepO

	12-04-2003 02:03									#67
	Tired of ads?

quote: Hello, DeepO! Sorry for not getting back to you earlier on the Feudalism deal... RL constraints getting in my way. I do hope to be able to put together some information on our situation sometime tomorrow - the weekend should finally allow me to catch up. Talk to you soon! vondrack

	13-04-2003 17:02									#68
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

e-mail from Vondrack:

quote: Vondrack, I can understand your position on Feudalism, and frankly, I personally didn't expect you to buy it directly from us now. We can't offer you any discount on the price, as we're already losing money on this tech when asking for 200 gold for each trade, especially now that Vox is no longer an interested party (Well, I don't know if they have realised that we were so close, we can upgrade before their first unit would reach one of our cities.) However we have concerns that, even as we put definately most trouble into getting the tech, other teams would 'steal' our profits. It took us a while to convince GoW to buy from us, instead of doing it themselves, which gave us a lot of insight of how things are going on Bob. Apparently, the reason why they wanted to do it themselves, at higher cost and longer eta was that RP had demanded it, in the spirit of a trade embargo against us. (us being GS here). But ND does not listen so closely to RP, and wanted to buy Feud from us, which would put GoW at a considerable delay in getting Chivalry. Timing of next techs: I can only guess at it, but if we would go for full research, we should be able to get next tech in 6-7 turns (so after Feud). I don't think we'll do that, we can use the money to rush some of our improvements that now don't get build because we need more troops. But it should be easy to both get some cash, and finish our next tech around the time you finish Theo. We're in full debate which tech that will be: it looks like Chivalry would either be a super tech to research if we can sell it to both GoW and ND, or a total waste if both would research it themselves. If we don't offer it to them, we can be sure there are two teams who will waste beakers on the tech, so maybe it's best if we would go for something else (invention?) in the mean time. But this is still heavily debated right now, the situation has changed in more then one respect with this Vox war. But, no matter which tech we would go for, we would end that second tech around the same time as you would end Theo. You've just given us more proof of the closeness and dangers from the Bobians, with the C&C deals (we had similar problems with republic). That was already the start of their trade embargo against us (us being both Lego and GS here). I can imagine who was willing to play the secret source on construction: Vox. They have been backstabbing us for about 10-15 turns, if we afterwards analyse where our relation soured. Which would be perfectly in time to get some more money out of tech trades they were not allowed to commit. RP: yes, they seem friendly, but I swear they told us you were the biggest threat to them in specific and to everyone in general, and that they were looking for ideas how to stop that. So, at that moment their tone towards us was super friendly, solliciting to get into alliances against the evil Lego empire... however, at the same time they were asking exactly the same thing of GoW, only not an alliance against Lego, but against GS. And I can only imagine that they have sent quite a few messages to you, to try to set you up against GS. One of the dirtiest trick they use (dirty in the sense that we should look out for them, not in the sense of being illegal in this game) are the unofficial messages. These are like "we will deny to have sent you this information, but you know that XX is backstabbing you in your deal on YYY, right?". So far, all the messages we received contained an element of thruth in there, and were vague enough on other fronts. All were directed to make us angry, or sour relations, or 'expose' something another team had been allegedly doing to us. While we were close to Vox, most were about Vox. Now, we're beginning to receive them about you, and GoW (ND has very little contact with RP, it seems. Or they hide it very well). I can only imagine you are getting the same messages, if you get any about us, never be afraid to simply ask whether something is true, instead of assuming RP is telling you the thruth, to help you. They're only trying to help themselves. Last comment: we have obtained maps of Bob, maybe you have too, maybe you haven't. Anyway, we can't give you our WM directly as we will not give away our own map so easily, but if you would be interested in eg screenshots (up to date up to 2 turns ago, when we received the map), maybe we can strike a deal. Otherwise, we have more accurate information on the Bobians (well, more accurate... the number of cities I told you earlier was quite an accurate analysis, but the situation has changed a bit, and it gets harder and harder to analyse it from the F-screens) See you tonight, I'm looking forward to it. I hope I'll be able to get into the chatroom, a couple of days ago I tried for nearly 2 hours before finaly giving up. DeepO quote: Radek Vondracek wrote: Hi, DeepO! Poly is down (getting "There seems to have been a slight problem with the database. Please try again by pressing the refresh button in your browser." error all the time - but refreshing does not help...), so I am sending this via email: =========== As promised, here is at least a quick update on the situation Lego is in ATM and on the Feudalism deal proposal you've presented. To our disappointment, our deals on Currency and Construction went only so-so, despite Construction being our exclusive at the time (and Currency, too, at least for few turns). We were only able to trade C+C to two other teams... RPers even going as far as getting the techs from an illegal source. The fact is that paying 200 gold for a technology that brings no immediate benefit to us (our Mercenaries are better than Pikemen + we are not planning to attempt building Sun Tzu's) does not sound right, considering how much cash we have and how much cash we need. Even slowing down our full speed research of Theology in order to set 12gpt aside for you seems not justified. Let's wait a couple of turns until Chivalry and Theology are available for trade (we are a little bit over 10 turns from discovering Theology ATM) and get back to the issue then. As for the rest of information - thanks for keeping us updated. Especially the information about RPers is quite worrying, as they say they are our best friends all the time... dunno what to think of that... Looking forward to our chat today! vondrack

	14-04-2003 03:21									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

chat log:

quote: Session Start: Sun Apr 13 21:55:16 2003 [21:55] } Successfully joined #vino at 9:55pm [21:55] } Total People:1 Ops:1 Voices:0 [21:55] } Channel Modes: + [21:55] } Created on Sunday, April 13th, 2003 at 9:53pm [21:55] *** Retrieving #vino info... [21:55] [9:55pm] DeepO sets mode: +ips [21:55] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User redstar1 has been invited to: #vino [21:55] [9:55pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* DeepO invited redstar1 into channel #vino. [21:56] -} *redstar1* Hi there. wanna join me in #vino? [21:57] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User alva has been invited to: #vino [21:57] [9:57pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* DeepO invited alva into channel #vino. [21:57] [9:57pm] alva (Alva@D5E02815.kabel.telenet.be) has joined. «2 people» [21:57] {DeepO} hey [21:57] [9:57pm] {alva} hi [21:58] {DeepO} je bent er dus... nog iemand geinteresserd in lego chat? [21:58] [9:58pm] {alva} so , you got it [21:58] {DeepO} wat? [21:58] [9:58pm] {alva} nederlands!!!! [21:58] {DeepO} wel ja, er is voor de rest niemand [21:58] [9:58pm] {alva} 't is dus gelukt [21:58] {DeepO} wat? [21:58] [9:58pm] {alva} mirc [21:58] {DeepO} aha [21:59] {DeepO} tja, blijkbaar is het beter als ik de afgelopen uren nog niet op het forum ben geweest [21:59] [9:59pm] {alva} wat uur had je afgesproken? [21:59] {DeepO} nuu [21:59] {DeepO} nu [21:59] {DeepO} ne second [21:59] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User redstar1 has been invited to: #vino [21:59] [9:59pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* DeepO invited redstar1 into channel #vino. [21:59] [9:59pm] redstar1 (d@host213-123-116-111.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined. «3 people» [21:59] {DeepO} hi there! [21:59] {DeepO} anyone else needing an invite? [21:59] [9:59pm] {redstar1} hiya [21:59] [9:59pm] DeepO sets mode: +o alva [21:59] [9:59pm] DeepO sets mode: +o redstar1 [21:59] [9:59pm] {@redstar1} vondrack [22:00] {DeepO} ok [22:00] [10:00pm] {@alva} hi red [22:00] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User vondrack has been invited to: #vino [22:00] [10:00pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* DeepO invited vondrack into channel #vino. [22:00] [10:00pm] {@redstar1} not sure if kloreep and sharpe want to join as well [22:00] [10:00pm] {@redstar1} hey alva [22:00] {DeepO} well, normally you should be able to invite them too [22:00] {DeepO} simply type /invite user #vino [22:00] {DeepO} (a trick I learned from Shiber) [22:00] [10:00pm] {@redstar1} yeah i been using irc for years [22:01] [10:01pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* redstar1 invited vondrack into channel #vino. [22:01] [10:01pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* redstar1 invited Sharpe into channel #vino. [22:01] [10:01pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has joined. «4 people» [22:01] [10:01pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* redstar1 invited Kloreep into channel #vino. [22:01] {DeepO} hi vondrack [22:01] [10:01pm] Sharpe (Sharpe@dhcp-0-7-e9-cf-5a-ad.cpe.mountaincable.net) has joined. «5 people» [22:01] [10:01pm] {vondrack} good evening! [22:01] [10:01pm] {@redstar1} all the guys might be interested in diplomacy [22:01] [10:01pm] Kloreep (~ben@66-90-192-11.grandecom.net) has joined. «6 people» [22:01] [10:01pm] {@redstar1} we don't get much of it [22:01] {DeepO} oh, and no offense redstar1, it's simply that I don't use mirc much [22:01] [10:01pm] {@alva} Hi von [22:01] {DeepO} hi everyone! [22:01] [10:01pm] {@redstar1} hehe no probs mate [22:01] [10:01pm] {Sharpe} Hi! [22:01] {DeepO} welcome, I would say [22:01] [10:01pm] {Kloreep} Hi. [22:01] [10:01pm] {@alva} ok, welcome all [22:01] {DeepO} it's good to see so many interested people from Lego [22:02] [10:02pm] {vondrack} yeah... the last message (the part on RPers) was quite worrying [22:02] [10:02pm] {@redstar1} well you caught a few of us on, so what the hell [22:02] [10:02pm] {@alva} So many people, no wonder you build the pyramids [22:02] [10:02pm] {vondrack} raised interest in our chat [22:02] [10:02pm] {vondrack} yeah, everybody lent a hand [22:02] {DeepO} well, first of all, let me say that I'm a few hours behind on the situation [22:02] [10:02pm] {Sharpe} yeah, Vondrack sure used the whips on us for that Pyramids - said something about his burial tomb [22:02] [10:02pm] {@alva} again congrats btw [22:02] {DeepO} I agree [22:03] {DeepO} quite a feast that must have given [22:03] {DeepO} however, I don't know if it was good for your international situation [22:03] [10:03pm] {@redstar1} yeah, though i looked after the virgins [22:03] {DeepO} [22:03] {DeepO} let's start with RP [22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} ok [22:03] {DeepO} I'm not sure how much communication you have gotten the past weeks from them [22:03] [10:03pm] {@alva} both asleep and shiber are on line, I'll post in the forum 'bout this [22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} not that much [22:04] {DeepO} however, the few things we got we're quite troubling [22:04] [10:04pm] {@redstar1} no, RP have been fairly quiet [22:04] {DeepO} «alva» please invite them [22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} actually, you indicated you'd expect us getting "those" messages from RP, too [22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} but we do not really get them... ??? [22:04] {DeepO} yeah [22:04] {DeepO} well, they'll come [22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} perhaps [22:04] {DeepO} most of the times, it's not a good sign when the send those msgs [22:05] {DeepO} let me explain our situation a little [22:05] {DeepO} before going on with yours [22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} ok, fine [22:05] {DeepO} Vox: they have been looking for a way to use their immortals [22:05] {DeepO} and we're pretty sure it was mosly RP that made them come from us [22:05] {DeepO} then, we got such an unofficial message [22:05] {DeepO} explaining that there was no incursion of Bob [22:06] {DeepO} (which we were expecting) [22:06] {DeepO} later on, we learn that Vox gets paid by RP to enter this war [22:06] {DeepO} (well, maybe as payment for a tech, but that's just the excuse) [22:06] {DeepO} and still, RP is very friendly, and asks us about how we are going to take care of Lego [22:07] {DeepO} which we have no interest in, of course [22:07] {DeepO} the point is: RP knows that the two isolationists are the biggesst risk to them [22:07] {DeepO} and are trying everything they can to make us isolated [22:07] {DeepO} us by getting us in a war [22:08] {DeepO} which, as we explained to them, is not really a problem [22:08] {DeepO} we're not going to loose becuase of this war, on the contrary [22:08] {DeepO} so the moment they figured that out, they have been trying to set GoW, and most likely ND against us [22:08] {DeepO} they demanded (yes demanded, not asked) [22:08] {DeepO} that GoW was going to research Feud themselves [22:08] {DeepO} so no more gold would go to us [22:09] {DeepO} meanwhile, they're trying to isolate you too [22:09] {DeepO} so I can only imagine that in the near future, you will find eg GoW not willing to trade with you on a certain tech [22:09] {DeepO} you then jcould imagine what it means [22:09] {DeepO} The problem is, that we will grow through Vox, but with your Pyaramids, you will grow too [22:10] {DeepO} so I can expect the pressure building the coming weeks [22:10] {DeepO} watch out... [22:10] {DeepO} also for the UUs [22:10] {DeepO} well, that's basically it [22:10] [10:10pm] {@redstar1} you are planning to conquer vox? [22:10] {DeepO} right now? [22:10] {DeepO} yes [22:10] {DeepO} we were not a few turns ago [22:10] {DeepO} but this is an opportunity we can't miss [22:11] {DeepO} and we were provoked, even attacked into this war [22:11] {DeepO} so to not lose face, this war will likely continue till either one of us is dead [22:11] [10:11pm] {@redstar1} fair enough [22:11] {DeepO} yeah, but we didn't want it [22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} after all that trash talkimg, that's is very likely ) [22:11] [10:11pm] {@redstar1} any idea of relative military strength? [22:11] {DeepO} we were happily sailing beneath the score radar [22:12] [10:12pm] {Sharpe} loved the avatar war [22:12] {DeepO} me too [22:12] {DeepO} mil strength: yes, we know the maximum strength of Vox [22:12] {DeepO} and we're smaller for the moment [22:12] {DeepO} buut Vox is going to need to have 3 more turns at least before they can attack one of our cities [22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} yeah, it's a bit worrying you appear to be the weakest team ATM [22:13] {DeepO} and at that moment, we'll have more then enough troops [22:13] {DeepO} maybe. [22:13] {DeepO} but our empire is the easiest to defend [22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} I mean - that's what the Mil Adv says (F3) [22:13] {DeepO} and upgrades are coming... Vox has nothing left to upgrade [22:13] {DeepO} I know [22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} RPers first, then everybody else, then GS last [22:13] {DeepO} but its no problem to us [22:14] {DeepO} yeah... a good thing RP doesn't have boats yet (or at least not many) [22:14] {DeepO} or they would sail here to get us [22:14] [10:14pm] {@alva} One of the reasons we didn' as many units, is that we would always have ample warning [22:14] [10:14pm] {vondrack} yeah, we are also quite sure RPers were neglecting seas [22:14] {DeepO} Grog was our warning [22:14] {DeepO} and he did his job splendildy [22:14] {DeepO} poor Grog [22:14] [10:14pm] {@alva} [22:15] [10:15pm] {vondrack} [22:15] {DeepO} RP and Sea: do you have maps of them? [22:15] [10:15pm] {Sharpe} well now you will have to get a MaGrog [22:15] [10:15pm] {vondrack} yes, we do (map) [22:15] {DeepO} ah, ok [22:15] [10:15pm] {@alva} We will get all his family now [22:15] {DeepO} I guess Vox has been shopping around [22:15] [10:15pm] {vondrack} ? [22:15] {DeepO} so you also see they only have one coastal city for now [22:16] {DeepO} and its on our side [22:16] [10:16pm] {vondrack} yeah, that we know [22:16] {DeepO} well, waht did you think about RP [22:16] {DeepO} I mean before my msg [22:16] [10:16pm] {vondrack} well [22:16] [10:16pm] {@alva} how does that inviting work again? [22:17] [10:17pm] {@alva} nathan here [22:17] [10:17pm] {vondrack} RPers have always been very friendly [22:17] [10:17pm] {vondrack} talked about deals [22:17] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User nbarclay has been invited to: #vino [22:17] [10:17pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* DeepO invited nbarclay into channel #vino. [22:17] {DeepO} use /invite nbarclay #vino [22:17] [10:17pm] {vondrack} talked about cooperation [22:17] {DeepO} specific talk about us? [22:17] [10:17pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* alva invited nbarclay into channel #vino. [22:18] [10:18pm] {vondrack} nothing at all [22:18] {DeepO} strange [22:18] [10:18pm] {vondrack} actually, only Bobians were ever involved in their comms, I think [22:18] {DeepO} I would suspect that they tried to get us against you, and to get you against us too [22:18] {DeepO} ? [22:18] {DeepO} I don't understand [22:18] [10:18pm] {vondrack} no, not really... [22:19] [10:19pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* alva invited nbarclay into channel #vino. [22:19] [10:19pm] {@redstar1} no RP rarely if ever mention 3rd parties in their communications [22:19] {DeepO} well... it seems to me, that we both have to watch out for them [22:19] {DeepO} ok [22:19] {DeepO} well, they don't mention GoW to us [22:20] {DeepO} but GoW is rather lose when it comes to their diplo contacts [22:20] {DeepO} so the moment they got something from RP, we knew [22:20] {DeepO} (I mean last time, because we were chatting with them atm) [22:20] {DeepO} which was quite handy [22:20] [10:20pm] {vondrack} lose? like sharing info on RPers? [22:20] {DeepO} as it instantly made them look bad for 2 teams [22:20] {DeepO} sure [22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} aha [22:21] {DeepO} like quoting messages [22:21] {DeepO} which we will never do [22:21] [10:21pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* alva invited nbarclay into channel #vino. [22:21] {DeepO} and most other teams don't do either [22:21] [10:21pm] nbarclay (~nbarclay@rbn1-216-180-19-109.adsl.hiwaay.net) has joined. «7 people» [22:21] {DeepO} aha, hi Nathan [22:21] [10:21pm] {@alva} ah [22:21] [10:21pm] {nbarclay} Hi [22:22] [10:22pm] {@redstar1} bit of a no no without permission [22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} good evening, Nathan! [22:22] {DeepO} so far simply talking about RP [22:22] [10:22pm] {@redstar1} hi nbarclay [22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} first time we meet "live" [22:22] [10:22pm] {Sharpe} Hi! [22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} just sending saves to you... [22:22] [10:22pm] {nbarclay} Not exactly the most personal kind of interaction, is it? [22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} yeah [22:22] {DeepO} well, it seems to us that RP is really into getting their position safe for the upcoming UU wars [22:23] {DeepO} after that, they will tturn to both of us [22:23] {DeepO} and we would like to keep them from doing that [22:23] {DeepO} certainly now that there is a big chance that both us and Lego will grow a lot harder than they can [22:24] {DeepO} ... which was, in a sense, the initial idea in getting into a tech trade deal for us [22:24] {DeepO} because we can't be isolated from everyone [22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} that's correct [22:24] {DeepO} we can handle Bob, though, just not Lego too [22:24] {DeepO} it seems to me, that you are very much in the same situation [22:24] {DeepO} which makes things possible [22:24] [10:24pm] {@redstar1} ahh you percieve us as a threat? [22:24] [10:24pm] {@redstar1} hehe [22:25] {DeepO} no, not military [22:25] {DeepO} but for winning this game? sure [22:25] {DeepO} but that's no problem whatsoever [22:25] [10:25pm] {@redstar1} well thats nothing new, everyone is in it to win it [22:25] [10:25pm] {Sharpe} winning is a long way off... [22:25] {DeepO} sure, but not everyone is going to be big enough to do it [22:25] [10:25pm] {@alva} all but vox [22:25] [10:25pm] {@redstar1} well there is a long long way to go [22:26] [10:26pm] {@redstar1} and we would take a long term view on things [22:26] {DeepO} and RP is right, that these turns are decisive when it comes to growth [22:26] {DeepO} exactly, as do we [22:26] {DeepO} which is why we were happily building along, before the war [22:26] {DeepO} as were you [22:26] [10:26pm] {Sharpe} what is your impression of the Bob map now that you see it? [22:26] {DeepO} a lot of land [22:26] {DeepO} and poorly improved [22:27] {DeepO} plus, there are some serious problems there, between the geographical relation of the threee teams [22:27] {DeepO} ND is, as they say in Dutch, the sigar [22:27] [10:27pm] {@alva} true, I dont think I have ever had a start like GoW [22:27] [10:27pm] {Sharpe} out of curiousity do you see us now too? [22:27] {DeepO} no exactly [22:27] {DeepO} we know a bit of your coast [22:28] [10:28pm] {Sharpe} well it is better than their one tile tundra start [22:28] {DeepO} but did you trade your map, in exchange for the other WM? [22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} well, one thing to keep in mind is that all Bobians shared their maps... so GoW & ND know very well that RPers got the best start - that should be likely to make them less inclined to ally with them [22:28] [10:28pm] {Sharpe} no we do not trade maps [22:28] {DeepO} ok, good [22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} never [22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} team policy [22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} same as yourself, right? [22:28] {DeepO} we neither, but there is not much to protect, once coastal exploartion will have completed [22:28] {DeepO} our land is small, compared to both you, and Bob [22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} oh, that's right [22:28] [10:28pm] {nbarclay} Let's just say it would take a lot more reason than we've had thus far for us to trade it. [22:29] {DeepO} [22:29] {DeepO} for us the same [22:29] {DeepO} but we're not losing wars yet [22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} it seems to drive some teams mad when we refuse to trade for our WM... [22:29] {DeepO} RP complained, yes [22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} I guess you met the same reactions... [22:29] [10:29pm] {@alva} I don't why btw [22:29] {DeepO} and they somehow took it as an offense [22:30] [10:30pm] {@alva} what's wrong with keeping some FOW?? [22:30] {DeepO} the strange thing is, I can't remember them asking it of us [22:30] [10:30pm] {@alva} GoW did [22:30] {DeepO} yeah [22:30] {DeepO} so that may have been a RP request [22:30] {DeepO} more of the things we get from GoW first are 'cleared' with RP, it seems [22:30] {DeepO} which really is a problem [22:31] [10:31pm] {@alva} not as long long as we it [22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} you think they are feeding you with "crafted" info? [22:31] {DeepO} well, anymore someone wants to add to the RP thing? [22:31] {DeepO} maybe [22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} just that we VERY well know [22:32] {DeepO} it certainly is a possibility [22:32] [10:32pm] {vondrack} how you feel [22:32] {DeepO} you mean vs RP? [22:32] [10:32pm] {nbarclay} I wonder whether RP has thought of the possibility that if they tug on puppet strings too much, the puppets might start tugging back? [22:32] [10:32pm] {vondrack} I do not think so (re: nathan) [22:33] [10:33pm] {@redstar1} they never see childs play? [22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} and that is what's scaring me in the ISDG [22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} since Togas conducts the diplomacy there in the same way [22:33] {DeepO} but are the puppets tugging back? [22:33] {DeepO} I mean, they sometimes have a point [22:33] {DeepO} and are not afraid to state it [22:33] {DeepO} like when they asked GoW to don't trade Feud to us [22:33] {DeepO} or from us [22:34] {DeepO} they are right of course, it would set us back a lot, if we can't trade it to Bob [22:34] {DeepO} we already lose money on the deal [22:34] [10:34pm] {Sharpe} wonder how RP is going to be like if they get hold of all those luxuries [22:35] {DeepO} doesn't matter [22:35] {DeepO} they shouldn't be allowed to get so far [22:35] [10:35pm] {vondrack} talk about lost money on tech deals... our sour experience with C+C was enough to get the taste [22:35] {DeepO} that was RP, I'm quite sure [22:35] {DeepO} but of course, they still kept a friendly face to you [22:35] [10:35pm] {vondrack} yes, they did [22:36] {DeepO} can you imagine that, even if we understand your concerns, it scares us that you are willing to get Feud elsewhere [22:36] {DeepO} ? [22:36] {DeepO} because that too can easily be a RP 'request' for all we care [22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} well, for the moment, we are not going to get it anywhere [22:36] {DeepO} fine [22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} since we have no use for it [22:36] {DeepO} I understand your situation, really. [22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} you will not see us having Feu for at least 15 turns [22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} probably more [22:37] {DeepO} well, chivalry will be sooner then 15 turns [22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} we hope to make some bundle tech deals later on [22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} since we are pushing our way through the Edu branch [22:37] {DeepO} so watch out, Bob is not going to attack us, if they have any brains left. But Lego, without chivalry... [22:37] {DeepO} okay, that's fine too [22:37] [10:37pm] {nbarclay} Is there anything we could start working toward with you? [22:38] [10:38pm] {nbarclay} In terms of setting things up for a deal later? [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} right now... well, do you happen to know if anyone researches Engineering? [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} just checking [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} I assume you will go for Chivalry [22:38] {DeepO} we don't know for usre, no [22:38] {DeepO} do you?

	14-04-2003 03:23									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} because of the war [22:39] {DeepO} well... chivalry is not needed to get Vox down [22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} yes, it would seem logical? [22:39] {DeepO} so we're still deciding what to do... [22:39] [10:39pm] {nbarclay} This is strictly confidential, but we may be arranging to get Chivalry from someone else. [22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} oh, well... it seems we do not have a clear idea on Voxes' military [22:39] {DeepO} well, what do you assume on Vox's strength? [22:40] [10:40pm] {@alva} How big do you think Vox is? [22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} since if I was you, I'd probably play it safe and go for Chiv [22:40] [10:40pm] {nbarclay} In which case there's a good chance Engineering would be a priority for us, especially if we expect to be able to trade it on reasonable terms. [22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} re: Vox strength [22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} all we know they appear to be stronger than us [22:40] {DeepO} Chivalry: it's the same thing others have thought about us getting Feud fast [22:40] {DeepO} but that was not really the reason [22:41] {DeepO} we can withhold Vox with spears, swords, and WCs [22:41] [10:41pm] {Sharpe} I would say you might get some civs suspicious if you don't get Chivalry in the midst of a war [22:41] {DeepO} pikes and medinf is simply a plus [22:41] {DeepO} ? [22:41] {DeepO} but why? [22:41] [10:41pm] {nbarclay} WC = 2 attack, 20 shields. [22:41] {DeepO} we are facing a slowmover army, with biggest defense of 2 [22:41] [10:41pm] {nbarclay} Knight = 4 attack, 70 shields. [22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} hmm... admittedly, Knight are expensive [22:42] [10:42pm] {nbarclay} As long as we don't go up against anything with a defense over 2, it's debatable how much value per shield knights would add. [22:42] {DeepO} WCs are much more effective in the open ground, while med inf, or swords, cover all slow terrain [22:42] [10:42pm] {Sharpe} that's true re expensive [22:42] {DeepO} which is all there is to it, really [22:42] {DeepO} we are planning on swarming them [22:42] {DeepO} with loads of units we can easily build, and keep building in our GA [22:43] {DeepO} which they cannot, as they have very few cities left, with no production [22:43] [10:43pm] {@alva} and no population [22:43] [10:43pm] {Sharpe} how many cities do Vox have ? [22:43] {DeepO} let's whip them some more, thinks Vox [22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} well, I trust you have the best idea of what you need to make this war go your way... just that when someone says "immortals", it sounds scary... [22:43] {DeepO} don't you see this on your maps? [22:44] {DeepO} immortals are no good, if they don't get to attack, and simply need to defend [22:44] [10:44pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* redstar1 invited Tiberius into channel #vino. [22:44] [10:44pm] {nbarclay} When you can produce medieval infantry faster than they can produce immortals, it's not nearly so scary. [22:44] [10:44pm] {@alva} Vox should have come earlier.. [22:44] [10:44pm] {nbarclay} Especially when you can also produce pikes faster than they can produce spears. [22:44] {DeepO} true [22:44] [10:44pm] {nbarclay} (Not yet, but soon.) [22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} well, you are perhaps right [22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} we are just used to building NMs before granaries, you know [22:45] {DeepO} do you have maps of Vox, or other ways to watch what is going on? [22:45] [10:45pm] Tiberius (~tibi.k@81.196.249.192) has joined. «8 people» [22:45] [10:45pm] {@alva} especially with how our continent is drawn [22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} the builders, what do you think... [22:45] [10:45pm] {@alva} Hi Tibi [22:45] [10:45pm] {@redstar1} welcome tibi [22:45] {DeepO} hi there [22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} DeepO, we can see only a small part of Voxes' territory [22:45] {DeepO} ok [22:45] [10:45pm] {Tiberius} Hi. [22:46] {DeepO} well, I was right the first time [22:46] {DeepO} they had, at that moment, 5 cities [22:46] {DeepO} currently, they have 6 [22:46] {DeepO} and 3 of them are size 1, poprushed [22:46] [10:46pm] {@alva} Damned, I keep thinking Lego = Romans [22:46] {DeepO} 1 is size 3, 2 are size 4 [22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} hmmm... that must be less than half of what you have [22:46] {DeepO} yeah, about [22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} I wonder... how come they started this war? [22:47] {DeepO} but only in numbers of cities, we did not whip our population once [22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} it seems so uneven [22:47] {DeepO} RP [22:47] {DeepO} easy answer [22:47] {DeepO} and lack of insight in the mil advisor [22:47] [10:47pm] {nbarclay} Also, we showed up as weak on Vox's military advisor. [22:47] [10:47pm] {nbarclay} Of course the advisor doesn't tell you what the enemy can get ready to meet you with by the time you get there. [22:48] {DeepO} true, but that was not their only problem [22:48] [10:48pm] {@alva} no spy satellites yet [22:48] {DeepO} and frankly, because of Grog, they had very few options [22:48] {DeepO} they needed to start this war well before a surprise attack could have worked [22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} that's right... but still... one would expect a more thoughtful approach to a war that may lead to their extinction [22:48] [10:48pm] * vondrack shakes his head [22:48] {DeepO} it was a life or die thing [22:49] {DeepO} either they can gain from it [22:49] {DeepO} or they die, in a blaze of glory, as one of our members called it [22:49] [10:49pm] {@alva} the macarthur decoy was nicely setup though [22:49] {DeepO} yeah, they started on this 15 turns ago [22:49] {DeepO} [22:49] [10:49pm] {vondrack} was the first landing faked, too??? [22:49] [10:49pm] {vondrack} I thought it was the second one only...? [22:50] {DeepO} no, but the turn after, they said to us that they were going to return to Bob [22:50] [10:50pm] {@alva} no, that was real [22:50] [10:50pm] {nbarclay} There's a city that almost has to be left over from the first landing. [22:50] {DeepO} which was never their idea [22:50] {DeepO} they should have attacked us then, at that moment, the mil adv wasn't lying [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} but they appeared weak at that time, too [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} I am checking the F3 screen quite frequently [22:51] {DeepO} which gave us a good idea of their strength [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} I am quite sure they did not have the military either [22:51] {DeepO} we knew, because we were more or less even, how many warriors they had [22:51] {DeepO} before connecting iron [22:52] {DeepO} afterwards, only a few could have been build [22:52] {DeepO} but of course, with a 4 attack value, an immortal is worth more then a swords [22:52] {DeepO} while the effect can be the same [22:52] [10:52pm] {@alva} unless someone supplied them whith lots of workers [22:52] {DeepO} well, who? [22:53] [10:53pm] {@alva} J/K [22:53] {DeepO} I know [22:53] [10:53pm] {@alva} [22:53] {DeepO} how are your relations with GoW, BTW? [22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} quite fine, I'd say [22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} good trades [22:53] {DeepO} they seem to be the most friendly people on Bob [22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} they actually helped us to catch up techwise [22:54] {DeepO} and at least their friendliness is reall [22:54] {DeepO} well, yes, but we offered that too [22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} profitable to both sides, but a very fine deal [22:54] {DeepO} and at fewer expense to you [22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} yes, with friendliness, you never know... [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} yes, we'd have difficult times catching up w/o the deal we made with them [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} we'd bleed gold-wise [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} perhaps have to trade our map [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} etc. [22:55] {DeepO} maybe [22:55] {DeepO} we offered it for a very limited amount of gold [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} GoW was great to deal with [22:55] {DeepO} and I'm sure we would have settled to get one tech in return [22:56] {DeepO} but that's all hindsight [22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} the problem was that you were quite far away [22:56] {DeepO} true [22:56] {DeepO} the thing is, we know that many times, we don't need an immediate advantage to gain in the long term [22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} and we did not want to risk harming our relations with GoW by sailing throug "their" waters [22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} so we took the deal [22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} yes, that's our approach as well [22:57] [10:57pm] {nbarclay} "A bird in the hand," right? [22:57] {DeepO} which was good, I think [22:57] {DeepO} yeah [22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} yep, exactly [22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} actually, GoW is our closest neighbour [22:57] {DeepO} for us, and this has not changed, it's important that Lego grows to be stronger then anyone on Bob [22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} so we are trying to maintain good relations [22:57] [10:57pm] {@alva} How far is Vox from your west side btw? [22:58] [10:58pm] {vondrack} VERY far [22:58] {DeepO} we the same, once we take Vox, GoW is only 1 tile away [22:58] [10:58pm] {vondrack} like [22:58] [10:58pm] {@alva} [22:58] [10:58pm] {vondrack} let me check [22:58] [10:58pm] {vondrack} like 1/3-1/4 of the minimap width, I think [22:59] [10:59pm] {vondrack} much farther than Bob [22:59] [10:59pm] {@alva} auch [22:59] {DeepO} Bob is only a few tiles away... [22:59] {DeepO} has GoW explored even more to your North, in search for iron islands? [22:59] [10:59pm] {@alva} looks like we're never gonna invade you then, or vice-versa [22:59] {DeepO} [23:00] {DeepO} which was my point: we would gain most if Lego is strong [23:00] [11:00pm] {vondrack} not until Transports [23:00] {DeepO} as there is no risk millitary, noth could help each other building [23:00] [11:00pm] {vondrack} re: GoW... they seem to be mapping our coast, probably [23:00] [11:00pm] {@alva} and serve as a deterent [23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} well, we keep an eye out on them [23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} so far, they haven't tried to land anywhere [23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} but on the Mystery Island [23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} that is what they call Baby Bob [23:01] {DeepO} they are starting on 'our' (as in Vox-GS) coast too [23:01] [11:01pm] {@alva} any team attacking one of us, will be weak'ened) on the other side [23:01] {DeepO} Baby bob is strange [23:02] {DeepO} what good would it do to them [23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} no idea [23:02] {DeepO} if not strategicval? [23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} what I especially don't get is why they plopped TWO cities there [23:02] {DeepO} in that they could use it as a base of support to get to Legoland [23:02] {DeepO} one hut? [23:02] {DeepO} was there a hut when you saw it first? [23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} yep, there was [23:03] {DeepO} might explain it... [23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} but GoW beat us to it [23:03] {DeepO} ah, you watched? [23:03] {DeepO} settler? [23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} not really - we explored the coast of Baby Bob before they came there [23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} so we can see what's going on there [23:03] {DeepO} hmmm [23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} cities and such [23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} and btw, we can still see there hut there, I think [23:03] {DeepO} one sec [23:04] {DeepO} I'll check [23:04] [11:04pm] {vondrack} since we were not in the area for quite some time [23:04] [11:04pm] {vondrack} but it's been popped [23:04] [11:04pm] {vondrack} long time ago [23:04] [11:04pm] {vondrack} I am sure [23:04] [11:04pm] {nbarclay} I wonder if maybe GoW forgot about not being able to irrigate without a water source until the industrial age. [23:04] {DeepO} yeah, the hut is gone [23:05] [11:05pm] {vondrack} I believe they got a tech out of it [23:05] {DeepO} that would be stupid, I can't believe that [23:05] {DeepO} (iirr, I mean) [23:05] [11:05pm] {vondrack} Polytheism it was? I think so [23:05] [11:05pm] {Sharpe} That might explain how GoW suddenly offered us Polytheism Vondrack [23:05] {DeepO} aha, that would explain how that tech got distrubted so fast [23:06] {DeepO} maybe they are running from ND [23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} yes, it coincided with the distribution of Polytheism, as far as I can recall [23:06] {DeepO} I don't those two teams like each other much [23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} ND is a mystery to us [23:06] {DeepO} Yeah, they don't talk a lot [23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} we offered them a fine deal [23:06] [11:06pm] {Sharpe} wrapped up in an enigma [23:06] [11:06pm] {nbarclay} I think they're a mystery to everyone. [23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} yet they turned it down [23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} hehe [23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} yes [23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} but they are doing quite well [23:07] [11:07pm] {vondrack} considering how little diplomacy they conduct [23:07] [11:07pm] {@alva} Still, settling on Bob counts Dounble from a GOW POV, (gain and denial) [23:07] [11:07pm] {@alva} *double [23:07] [11:07pm] {Sharpe} ND's city pattern is quite spherical [23:07] {DeepO} they're good [23:08] {DeepO} their cities are using a max of resources, without wasting travel time for their troops [23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} I wonder... could it be there is some kind of a border treaty between GoW & ND, forbidding more GoW settlements on Bob? [23:08] {DeepO} no there isn't [23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} this might explain their cities on Baby Bob [23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} hmmm... then I truly don't know [23:08] [11:08pm] {@redstar1} they didn't want us to get it most likely [23:08] [11:08pm] {@redstar1} or anyone else [23:08] {DeepO} the way I understand it, they warn each other when a settler leaves for a spot, and the other directs its settlers elsewhere [23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} perhaps [23:08] [11:08pm] {@redstar1} its the lentini factor [23:09] {DeepO} further, they try to not upset each other [23:09] {DeepO} by settling too close [23:09] [11:09pm] {vondrack} what language are you speaking now, redstar? [23:09] {DeepO} which also explains why the former Lux lands aren't settled yet

	14-04-2003 03:25									#71
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quote: [23:09] [11:09pm] {vondrack} they both probably wait for their UUs [23:09] {DeepO} yes [23:09] {DeepO} but where is RP in all of this? [23:09] [11:09pm] {Sharpe} that should be interesting [23:10] {DeepO} are they going to join one side, to the other? [23:10] [11:10pm] {@alva} I wonder what they all are going to do with their UU and GA's [23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} hmmm... RPers... you certainly noticed they are not building an empire, but a wall, right? [23:10] {DeepO} certainly [23:10] [11:10pm] {@alva} Expand on BoB, or beyond.. [23:10] {DeepO} but it wouldn't surpise me if they would join with GoW, and divide ND between them [23:11] [11:11pm] {vondrack} I guess they are scared of those UUs... [23:11] [11:11pm] {@redstar1} RP have ample land to settle in their south [23:11] [11:11pm] {vondrack} that is quite likely, yes [23:11] {DeepO} which is also why they fear the both of us: we could easily land beneath their wall [23:11] [11:11pm] {Sharpe} oh are you that close to RP there? [23:11] [11:11pm] {@redstar1} would be a great shame if they had pyramids [23:11] {DeepO} ampple land, certainly. But not if we decide to take up camp there [23:12] {DeepO} not really, we can't reach it directly [23:12] [11:12pm] {vondrack} along the Vox coast only? [23:12] {DeepO} yep [23:12] {DeepO} but still, this would be enough [23:12] [11:12pm] {vondrack} hmmm.. do you happen to have an idea of Vox navy? [23:12] {DeepO} yeah, well, we know they have at least 2 galleys [23:13] {DeepO} but not how many they have over that [23:13] [11:13pm] {@alva} yep, it sinks very fast [23:13] {DeepO} and we know they have no harbor, so only regs [23:13] {DeepO} do you have any more info? [23:13] [11:13pm] {vondrack} ok, that's fine... we are going to be very suspicious towards anyone having more than 5 of them [23:13] {DeepO} [23:13] {DeepO} well, doesn't have GoW at least 4 galleys? [23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} I can't recall now... have you asked if we are suspicious toward GoW? [23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} [23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} j/k [23:14] [11:14pm] {@redstar1} lol [23:14] {DeepO} well, I would be, if they settled so close to me [23:14] {DeepO} but GoW isn't sneaky [23:14] {DeepO} they are quite brute [23:15] {DeepO} which is fine, really, you know what you can expect when talking to them [23:15] [11:15pm] {@redstar1} well we made no official claim on mystery island, and it is closer to them than us.... [23:15] [11:15pm] {vondrack} yes... they made it clear they were determined to get it [23:15] [11:15pm] {vondrack} it did not seem like a reason good enough to go to war with them [23:15] {DeepO} which is fine, I think GoW needs room to expand more then any other Bob team [23:15] [11:15pm] {vondrack} especially because - as you correctly noted - it is not the best piece of land on this map [23:16] {DeepO} [23:16] {DeepO} well, some of our territory would be worse then that [23:16] {DeepO} but has access to water [23:16] [11:16pm] {vondrack} oops... [23:16] {DeepO} [23:16] [11:16pm] {nbarclay} And from what little we've seen of it, Lego isn't exactly hurting for land elsewhere. [23:17] [11:17pm] {Sharpe} good land is at a premium [23:17] [11:17pm] {vondrack} with the Pyramids finished now, you can imagine we were not really keen on going to war at that time [23:17] {DeepO} of course [23:17] [11:17pm] {vondrack} on of our core cities was too busy [23:17] {DeepO} buut be careful, as other know this too [23:17] [11:17pm] {vondrack} it was sort of a risk [23:17] {DeepO} it still is [23:17] [11:17pm] {vondrack} you know what is funny? [23:17] {DeepO} ? [23:17] [11:17pm] {vondrack} it was initially not a Pyramid build [23:17] [11:17pm] {vondrack} but Great Library [23:18] {DeepO} [23:18] [11:18pm] {Sharpe} lol, it changed several times actually [23:18] [11:18pm] {vondrack} to make sure we'd be able to catch up [23:18] [11:18pm] {vondrack} but after we did catch up [23:18] {DeepO} didn't I ask you that in our first chat? It made a lot of sense [23:18] [11:18pm] {vondrack} w/o GLib [23:18] [11:18pm] {vondrack} we were looking foe something else, preventing a shield waste [23:18] {DeepO} but as I can tell you from one of our internal PBEM games, the GL is many times too much [23:18] [11:18pm] {vondrack} Pyramids made sense [23:19] {DeepO} in that it really is a bulls eyes for other civs [23:19] {DeepO} bullseye [23:19] [11:19pm] {Sharpe} besides we didn't want anyone on Bob to get the Pyramids there [23:19] {DeepO} or us [23:19] [11:19pm] {vondrack} well, yes... but what other chance we'd have if not crossing the sea so soon? [23:19] [11:19pm] {Sharpe} Bob was much more of a worry with all that land [23:19] [11:19pm] {vondrack} just imagine contacting the rest of the world with a lag of 8 techs... :scary: [23:19] {DeepO} of course... actually, in the same situation, I would have build the GL, but not build a galley [23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} heh... that was our plan [23:20] {DeepO} and let me be discovered [23:20] {DeepO} [23:20] [11:20pm] {Sharpe} until we saw Baby Bob... [23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} but then Baby Bob appeared [23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} until GoW saw it actually [23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} we missed it [23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} even though we did have a chance to see it [23:20] {DeepO} hmm.. things tend to change quickly in this game, no? [23:20] [11:20pm] {Sharpe} actually Zargon saw it [23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} slipped our attention at that time [23:20] {DeepO} ah, that's unfortunate [23:21] [11:21pm] {vondrack} it was about 15 turns into the game [23:21] [11:21pm] {vondrack} our first warrior got to the Northernmost tip of Legos Major [23:21] {DeepO} Do you have any kind of deal with GoW, where they don't settle your lands? [23:21] [11:21pm] {vondrack} and was actually able to see a tiny bit of coastal waters [23:21] [11:21pm] {vondrack} no, we do not [23:21] {DeepO} maybe good to ask them [23:22] {DeepO} and see their reaction [23:22] [11:22pm] {@redstar1} its taken as read i think that we would not appreciate it [23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} but we made it very clear we are going to attack anything landing on "our" soil [23:22] {DeepO} well, that's the same, of course [23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} yes [23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} and they seem to understand [23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} happily sail around us [23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} doing nothing bad [23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} let's hope it will last [23:23] {DeepO} I hope it for you [23:23] [11:23pm] {Sharpe} if you have the map of our coast , clearly they are selling their map around [23:23] {DeepO} well, not necessarily [23:23] [11:23pm] {vondrack} how come? [23:23] {DeepO} we got our map from Vox, as said with the last payment acknowledged the moment war started [23:23] [11:23pm] {nbarclay} If GoW is the only one sailing around, that's who our information on Lego has to have originated from. [23:23] [11:23pm] Kloreep (~ben@66-90-192-11.grandecom.net) is now known as Kloreep-AFK [23:24] [11:24pm] {Sharpe} ah interesting [23:24] {DeepO} we suspect it came from RP [23:24] {DeepO} which means that the Bobians are exchanging maps [23:24] [11:24pm] {nbarclay} Is anyone besides GoW nosing around your lands? [23:24] [11:24pm] {vondrack} well, there is one more thing [23:24] [11:24pm] {Sharpe} what do you see of our map? out of curiousity? [23:24] [11:24pm] {vondrack} ND established an embassy with us [23:24] [11:24pm] {vondrack} we did not understand why they did it [23:24] {DeepO} maps: we see as much as GoW had explored, we think up to 7-9 turns ago [23:25] [11:25pm] {Sharpe} any of our cities? [23:25] {DeepO} so one trail going North [23:25] {DeepO} you mean your capital [23:25] {DeepO} ? [23:25] [11:25pm] {Sharpe} oh you see that? [23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} btw - can you see our capital on the map? [23:25] {DeepO} yeah [23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} that means ND trade their map around! [23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} noone else can see it [23:26] {DeepO} we could, it would be rather easy [23:26] [11:26pm] {vondrack} noone else established an embassy [23:26] {DeepO} but you would notice, of course [23:26] [11:26pm] {nbarclay} We see Legpopolis and something that at least starts Panama. [23:26] [11:26pm] {vondrack} yes, of course [23:26] {DeepO} ND: still, we think it came from RP [23:26] [11:26pm] {vondrack} dunno... [23:26] [11:26pm] Kloreep-AFK (~ben@66-90-192-11.grandecom.net) is now known as Kloreep [23:26] {DeepO} add to that the GoW map [23:27] {DeepO} or at least their exploartion of your coasts [23:27] [11:27pm] {vondrack} it's a bit too complicated for someone who had a bottle of red wine two hours ago... [23:27] {DeepO} and you have 3 trading teams [23:27] {DeepO} [23:27] {DeepO} I can imagine, I had wine with dinner as well [23:27] [11:27pm] {vondrack} [23:27] {DeepO} hence the title of this chatroom [23:27] [11:27pm] {vondrack} oh! [23:27] {DeepO} [23:27] [11:27pm] {vondrack} it is even the same as in Czech! [23:27] [11:27pm] {vondrack} víno [23:27] {DeepO} well, this was Latin [23:27] {DeepO} not Dutch [23:28] {DeepO} would it be too much to ask who you got your map from, and when? [23:28] [11:28pm] {vondrack} hehe [23:28] [11:28pm] {vondrack} I think we can tell you [23:29] {DeepO} great [23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} it was actually very funny [23:29] [11:29pm] {Sharpe} hilarious more like [23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} few turns after we made contact with GoW [23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} ND approached us and offered a contact to you & their world map [23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} sent a PM [23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} asked for some gold (50?) and our map [23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} we PMed them back, explaining we were not trading our map under any circumstances [23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} but we agreed to pay 50 gold for your contact [23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} seemed the right thing to do [23:30] {DeepO} [23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} anyway - what I did was I threw in 50 gold [23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} and "accepted" [23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} sent back [23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} sent a PM explaining what it meant [23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} expected them to take the map out [23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} accept and... you get the idea [23:31] {DeepO} I hear you coming [23:31] {DeepO} [23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} well, the next turn, we got the save and had their map [23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} and a PM [23:31] {DeepO} so your is rather outdated when it comes to improvement [23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} explaining their leader made a mistake [23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} misunderstanding what it all was about [23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} yes, it is [23:32] [11:32pm] {Sharpe} but we do see the new cities as they pop up [23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} we can see cities, but the improvements must be quite outdated [23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} on with the story [23:32] {DeepO} maybe there is some merit in exchanging screenshots of the map of Bob, ours is 2 turns old [23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} by chance [23:32] {DeepO} sure (story going on) [23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} we got your contact for free [23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} or, rather [23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} YOU got it from GoW on that very turn [23:33] {DeepO} (whiich was also kind of unexpected) [23:33] [11:33pm] {nbarclay} Part of the deal to let them trade you Code of Laws, as I recall. [23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} so it all actually ended up that we let them keep the money (for "nothing") and they were ok with us having the map [23:33] {DeepO} [23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} we effectively got the map of Bob for 50 gold [23:34] {DeepO} 50 gold for a WM is no bad deal at all! [23:34] [11:34pm] {vondrack} now, that was cheap, wasn't it? [23:34] [11:34pm] {vondrack} yes ) [23:34] [11:34pm] {nbarclay} Ours cost 95 gold. [23:34] [11:34pm] {nbarclay} And Vox attacked us the moment the sale was completed. [23:34] {DeepO} which we thought to also be a bargain [23:34] {DeepO} yeah, those cheats... but they will feel our wrath [23:35] [11:35pm] {vondrack} hm... they must have been desperate for cash, right? [23:35] [11:35pm] {vondrack} I mean... giving their map to you? [23:35] {DeepO} the strange thing is, not really [23:35] [11:35pm] {vondrack} right before they start a war?? [23:35] {DeepO} we think it was simply to get as much out of our coffers as possible [23:35] {DeepO} well, we thinkg Vox is still sitting on a kind of large reserve of cash [23:35] [11:35pm] {vondrack} ah, yes, that's the other side of the coin [23:36] [11:36pm] {nbarclay} They probably figured that if the fighting got far enough north for the map to do us much good, they were doomed anyhow. [23:36] {DeepO} and they can't use it for upgrading, nor for rushin [23:36] {DeepO} we are rather terrified it would all flow to RP, if they would get down to 1 or 2 cities [23:36] [11:36pm] {vondrack} yes, that makes sense (re: doomed) [23:37] {DeepO} Ah, Vox... [23:37] {DeepO} we really liked them, you know [23:37] [11:37pm] {vondrack} hmmm... to RPers... what could be done against it? [23:37] {DeepO} one thing can be done: trade embagro against them [23:38] {DeepO} instead of them against us [23:38] {DeepO} they would feel it very fast [23:38] [11:38pm] {Sharpe} those luxuries will be a problem though if they get them [23:38] [11:38pm] {vondrack} no, I meant something different [23:38] {DeepO} but we need Bobians in the deal [23:38] {DeepO} ? [23:38] [11:38pm] {vondrack} I meant - what could be done against RPers getting Vox gold? [23:38] {DeepO} nothing at all [23:38] [11:38pm] {vondrack} what about saving Voxes? letting them live? [23:39] {DeepO} We can't run fast enough to get it ourselves [23:39] {DeepO} No deal [23:39] {DeepO} they have offended us [23:39] [11:39pm] {vondrack} not an option for you, I understand [23:39] [11:39pm] {vondrack} yes [23:39] {DeepO} we have screamed from the beginning that we are going to play this game honorably [23:39] {DeepO} so we can't allow anyone to abuse us [23:39] {DeepO} so that we lose face [23:39] [11:39pm] {vondrack} I was thinking about something like... letting them save their life... only because of someone's mercy [23:40] {DeepO} if they find refuge some where else, it's fine [23:40] [11:40pm] {vondrack} much like what they did to Luxes [23:40] {DeepO} but they will be driven off our continent [23:40] [11:40pm] {nbarclay} If it were me, I don't think I'd want to stay in the game if I had no chance of being even halfway competitive. [23:40] {DeepO} very true [23:40] {DeepO} which was one of the reasons why they attacked [23:40] [11:40pm] {nbarclay} I'd rather be conquered and be done with it. [23:40] [11:40pm] {vondrack} hmmm.... that is something I will have to think about [23:41] {DeepO} are you planning to lose ground soon? [23:41] [11:41pm] {vondrack} nah... [23:41] [11:41pm] {vondrack} I was... [23:41] [11:41pm] {vondrack} it's such a wild idea [23:41] [11:41pm] {vondrack} gimme a sec, please [23:41] {DeepO} wild ideas are most of the times the best [23:41] {DeepO} sure [23:42] [11:42pm] {vondrack} see... if the gold flowing to RPers (or anyone else, for that matter) should become a problem [23:43] [11:43pm] {vondrack} it might be possible to jump them to our landmass, much like what they did with Luxes

	14-04-2003 03:26									#72
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: [23:43] {DeepO} be very cautious with that one [23:43] {DeepO} sure, the gold is fine [23:43] [11:43pm] {vondrack} we are staying fairly neutral in this war [23:43] {DeepO} but don't burn your fingers [23:43] [11:43pm] {vondrack} so they might agree [23:44] [11:44pm] {vondrack} we have a peninsula here... Legos Minor - mostly mountains [23:44] {DeepO} well... we wouldn't mind at all [23:44] [11:44pm] {vondrack} but room enough for about 4 cities [23:44] {DeepO} (make that 2 if Vox is planning) [23:44] [11:44pm] {vondrack} hehe [23:44] [11:44pm] {vondrack} ok, I will keep that in mind [23:44] [11:44pm] {Sharpe} no irrigation possible there don't forget... [23:45] [11:45pm] {vondrack} and if the need emerges [23:45] [11:45pm] {vondrack} we can discuss that again [23:45] {DeepO} well, really, we don't mind, but watch out how it will be looked upon by Bob [23:45] [11:45pm] {vondrack} yep, no fresh water [23:45] {DeepO} and, Vox has a reputation to breaking deals [23:45] [11:45pm] {vondrack} hmmm... that's right [23:45] [11:45pm] {vondrack} as I said - just a wild idea [23:45] [11:45pm] {Sharpe} they wouldn't stand a chance against our mercs... [23:45] {DeepO} I can only imagine others are wanting to do it too [23:45] [11:45pm] {vondrack} saving them? [23:46] {DeepO} not afraid of immortals, are you [23:46] [11:46pm] {vondrack} getting the gold? [23:46] {DeepO} yeah, noth [23:46] {DeepO} both [23:46] {DeepO} but the latter most [23:46] [11:46pm] {nbarclay} Just make sure they don't get iron, or your mercs might not be quite so invulnerable. [23:46] [11:46pm] {vondrack} nah... immos are less than impressive against mercs [23:46] [11:46pm] {vondrack} plus, immos can't swim THAT far [23:46] [11:46pm] {vondrack} [23:46] {DeepO} [23:47] [11:47pm] {vondrack} swimmortals swim short distance only ) [23:47] {DeepO} well, if they really have a large amount of cash (lets say 500 gold), a lot is possible [23:47] {DeepO} but you have to be able to take them out, the first moment of trouble [23:47] [11:47pm] {vondrack} sure [23:47] {DeepO} like Vox did with Lux, only uncalled for [23:48] [11:48pm] {vondrack} yep, I understand [23:48] {DeepO} Don't put a stigma on yourselves, as Vox has done [23:48] {DeepO} we were attacked for defending them on more othen one occasion [23:48] {DeepO} and see what has come from that [23:48] [11:48pm] {vondrack} yes... [23:49] {DeepO} oh well [23:49] [11:49pm] {vondrack} just a sec - let me get a can of coke [23:49] {DeepO} we'll live [23:49] {DeepO} sure [23:49] {DeepO} maybe, in the mean time, just a little deal we could be working on [23:49] {DeepO} (kind of home work for the coming week) [23:49] [11:49pm] {vondrack} ok, back [23:50] {DeepO} you shouldn't be able to get theo before next Sunday, right? [23:50] [11:50pm] {vondrack} no, not that fast [23:50] {DeepO} so, if we can decide what we go for, we should be able to make a deal with yuo [23:50] [11:50pm] {vondrack} unless you stop sitting on the save all the time [23:50] {DeepO} do you have any special requests? [23:50] {DeepO} no chance, we like sitting on it [23:50] {DeepO} [23:51] [11:51pm] {vondrack} oh, I would never dare to "request" anything [23:51] [11:51pm] {vondrack} [23:51] [11:51pm] {vondrack} I mean [23:51] [11:51pm] {vondrack} ATM, we have no deals signed [23:51] {DeepO} why not? we would want to hear where you want to go to. [23:51] {DeepO} we're not RP... we make requests from time to time [23:51] [11:51pm] {vondrack} hehe [23:52] {DeepO} you told you were gong for edu [23:52] [11:52pm] {vondrack} yes, we are [23:52] [11:52pm] {vondrack} actually, the goal is Astronomy [23:52] [11:52pm] {Sharpe} any tech we trade for is one less we have to research of course [23:52] [11:52pm] {nbarclay} The "sitting on a save" phenomenon is what happens when you try to run a war by committee. [23:52] {DeepO} which would make it logical for us to take the Southern bracnh [23:52] [11:52pm] {vondrack} to allow trading over sea tiles [23:52] [11:52pm] {vondrack} yes, that sounds logical [23:52] {DeepO} okay, that's logical too [23:52] {DeepO} [23:52] [11:52pm] {vondrack} [23:53] {DeepO} the thing is, we really can't say when, and how we're going to resume research [23:53] [11:53pm] {vondrack} I fully understand [23:53] {DeepO} but we would hope that around the time you finish Theo, we get to another tech ourselves [23:53] {DeepO} so that we can trade... [23:53] [11:53pm] {vondrack} that's quite likely, yes [23:53] {DeepO} (if by that time, you're not bound by an embargo against us) [23:53] {DeepO} [23:54] [11:54pm] {vondrack} I do not think we are going to participate in any embargoes... [23:54] [11:54pm] {vondrack} [23:54] {DeepO} maybe [23:54] [11:54pm] {nbarclay} Do we want to sign a treaty that neither of us will agree to any kind of embargo against the other? [23:54] {DeepO} good idea [23:54] [11:54pm] {@redstar1} or if we do it will be like the russian participation in the arms embargo to iraq [23:54] [11:54pm] {nbarclay} LOL [23:54] [11:54pm] {vondrack} I think it would not be a problem [23:55] [11:55pm] {vondrack} or what redstar says, LoL [23:55] [11:55pm] {@redstar1} i don't think we would want to go down the road of embargos etc [23:55] {DeepO} maybe you will need to [23:55] [11:55pm] {@redstar1} i don't see how [23:55] [11:55pm] {Kloreep} Have to go; nice chat (not that I participated much ). Bye! [23:55] {DeepO} Bob reuniting would be enough [23:55] [11:55pm] {vondrack} bye [23:55] [11:55pm] Quits: Kloreep (~ben@66-90-192-11.grandecom.net) (Quit [23:55] {DeepO} bye! [23:56] {DeepO} damn.. too late [23:56] [11:56pm] {vondrack} Kloreep is always fast... [23:56] [11:56pm] {Sharpe} Bob uniting would be a worry for all I would imagine... [23:56] [11:56pm] {@redstar1} i don't see how that would force us into an embargo though [23:56] {DeepO} well, not if there are only 2 teams left [23:56] {DeepO} we can, together, outresearch Bob [23:56] {DeepO} and they could, if they want, embargo just one of us, and research him to death [23:57] [11:57pm] {vondrack} yes, 2 vs 3 should work [23:57] [11:57pm] {@redstar1} well thats not so much an embargo as a policy statement [23:57] {DeepO} true [23:57] {DeepO} but the way things are going, this might turn to that [23:57] [11:57pm] {@redstar1} perhaps [23:57] [11:57pm] {@redstar1} but its a long way away [23:57] {DeepO} it will be very interesting how the UUs do on Bob [23:57] [11:57pm] {nbarclay} There are really two potential dangers from Bob: [23:57] {DeepO} we should have a good feeling once they have settled [23:58] [11:58pm] {nbarclay} 1) They might unite against the outside world. [23:58] [11:58pm] {Sharpe} yeah, when they have settled will be a crucial moment [23:58] [11:58pm] {nbarclay} 2) One of them might essentially take out the other two, creating an enormous monster. [23:58] {DeepO} Sharpe, this comes rather soon... only 20-25 turns from now [23:58] [11:58pm] {Sharpe} well for ND and GoW sooner, for RP later than that [23:59] {DeepO} and Nathan, I agree. 1) would be a problem as they can join forces with the remainder of Vox [23:59] [11:59pm] {vondrack} Nathan, such a monster would be something to attack immediately from both sides [23:59] {DeepO} and invade either us, or Lego very early [23:59] {DeepO} monster: true [23:59] {DeepO} but this is exactly our problem [23:59] {DeepO} Vox forced us into becoming a monster [23:59] {DeepO} and your pyramids will grow you into one for free Session Close: Mon Apr 14 00:00:00 2003

I seem to miss part of the log (damn mIRC, now I can connect, but it erases part of my log), Nathan, do you have a copy of the last page or so?

DeepO

	14-04-2003 03:29									#73
	Remove this text

Ah, never mind, I found it. It changed dates...

One of these days, I'm going to think before posting something

quote: Session Start: Mon Apr 14 00:00:00 2003 Session Time: Mon Apr 14 00:00:00 2003 [00:00] {DeepO} At least, this is how Bob will see us [00:01] [12:01am] {nbarclay} The funny thing is, even after we conquer Vox, we aren't really huge by Bobian standards. And our land isn't exactly the ideal shape. [00:01] [12:01am] {vondrack} fortunately, even if Bobians perceive us or you as threat, it will take them some time to get into a position to invade overseas [00:01] {DeepO} True... but we will be biggest. If Lego doesn't pass us in size [00:02] [12:02am] {vondrack} size does not really matter... shields and gold do [00:02] [12:02am] {Sharpe} Right now - are any of the Bob civs bigger than your area? (without Vox) [00:02] [12:02am] {vondrack} the less territory one needs to protect, the better [00:02] {DeepO} ah, but both of those are related to amount of pop, and quality of land [00:02] [12:02am] {vondrack} if it gives gold and shields enough [00:02] [12:02am] {vondrack} yes, of course [00:02] {DeepO} Sharpe, in area? yes, I think [00:03] [12:03am] {@redstar1} ok lads i'm off to bed here, early start in the AM, i'll keep the window open though for logging:@) [00:03] {DeepO} we have very few land, but we use it well [00:03] [12:03am] {vondrack} ok, bye, redstar! [00:03] {DeepO} bye redstar1! [00:03] [12:03am] {Sharpe} Bye Redstar! [00:03] {DeepO} have a good night sleep [00:03] [12:03am] {nbarclay} Bye [00:04] [12:04am] {vondrack} well, guys, do we have any more agenda today? [00:04] [12:04am] {vondrack} or a summary perhaps? [00:04] {DeepO} I was thinking the same [00:04] {DeepO} (agenda, not summary) [00:05] [12:05am] {vondrack} I guess we talked about everything important [00:05] {DeepO} true... anything else: never be afraid to ask [00:05] [12:05am] {vondrack} I do not think so... you are quite a typist, DeepO! [00:05] [12:05am] {Sharpe} What your iron situation like? [00:05] {DeepO} I am? [00:06] {DeepO} yyou should have seen me before my accident [00:06] [12:06am] {vondrack} you always give out so much info [00:06] {DeepO} well... these are my views... [00:06] [12:06am] {vondrack} typing faster than anyone else [00:06] [12:06am] {nbarclay} Our iron situation is adequate, but not overflowing. [00:06] [12:06am] {vondrack} btw, may I ask one question? [00:06] {DeepO} maybe. I suspect Nathan is faster thought [00:06] {DeepO} shoot [00:06] [12:06am] {vondrack} it may sound stupid, but... [00:06] [12:06am] {nbarclay} Of course it will get a little better when we have Vox's iron. [00:06] [12:06am] {vondrack} you know, we have two iron sources connected [00:07] [12:07am] {vondrack} but only one of them shows in the resource summary??? [00:07] {DeepO} ? [00:07] {DeepO} You mean one used only? [00:07] [12:07am] {vondrack} and they ARE both connected to the capital [00:07] [12:07am] {Sharpe} Oh, Vox's iron is that close? [00:07] {DeepO} not very far [00:07] [12:07am] {vondrack} well, under the iron icon in the resource box, there is [00:07] [12:07am] {vondrack} "1" [00:07] {DeepO} it's outside their borders [00:07] [12:07am] {vondrack} instead of "2" [00:08] {DeepO} and in your trade advisor? [00:08] [12:08am] {Sharpe} hmm, a colony!? [00:08] {DeepO} yep [00:08] {DeepO} nice target, no? [00:08] [12:08am] {nbarclay} Unfortunately, it has jungle protecting it from our WCs. [00:08] [12:08am] {Sharpe} Indeed, especially with their immos - but probably heavily guarded I would imagine [00:09] {DeepO} maybe... doesn't matter [00:09] {DeepO} we only need to raze the closest city, or a road leading to it [00:09] [12:09am] {nbarclay} Every unit they have guarding their iron is one they can't use on the front lines. [00:09] [12:09am] {nbarclay} And if we cut their road. [00:10] {DeepO} and still they think their superiour in strategic position, because they attacked us first... [00:10] [12:10am] {nbarclay} Well, it's a better strategic position than they'd be in if we knew they were about to attack us. [00:10] {DeepO} mystery iron [00:10] [12:10am] {vondrack} sorry... was checking the save for that iron weirdness [00:10] {DeepO} maybe you don't see it, because you can't trade it? [00:11] {DeepO} do you have the same problem with dyes, if more then one is connected? [00:11] [12:11am] {vondrack} nope, I am checking the city screens [00:11] [12:11am] {nbarclay} Normally, Iron, 1 extra would be ghosted if you can't trade it. [00:11] [12:11am] {Sharpe} or maybe we were using it for that turn? [00:11] [12:11am] {vondrack} we do not have iron in the trading screen at all [00:11] {DeepO} well, but not in a city view [00:11] {DeepO} that's weird [00:11] [12:11am] {vondrack} city screen show 1 iron, trade adv. none [00:11] {DeepO} you're sure you have 2 sources, right? [00:11] [12:11am] {vondrack} yep, absolutely [00:12] [12:12am] {vondrack} just that one got connected in two "stages" [00:12] [12:12am] {nbarclay} What happens when you open the trade screen to another civ? [00:12] {DeepO} very strange, I have never seen that [00:12] [12:12am] {vondrack} first to our road network below the jungle [00:12] {DeepO} «vondrack» explain? [00:12] [12:12am] {vondrack} and then when we finally built the road through the jungle [00:12] [12:12am] {vondrack} to our capital [00:12] {DeepO} that shouldn't matter [00:12] [12:12am] {vondrack} I would think so [00:12] {DeepO} I've done that with rubber on islands lots of times [00:13] {DeepO} never noticed that problem [00:13] [12:13am] {vondrack} I thought you might know if there is bug like this? [00:13] {DeepO} and I was able to trade my last resource to someone else [00:13] {DeepO} well, never heared of it [00:13] {DeepO} but we'll ask in GS [00:13] [12:13am] {vondrack} nevermind... just thought I'd ask [00:13] {DeepO} maybe Aeson knows, he's most up to date with this kind of thing [00:14] {DeepO} I'll check, and get back to you [00:14] [12:14am] Quits: Tiberius (~tibi.k@81.196.249.192) (Ping timeout) [00:14] [12:14am] {vondrack} ok, thanks [00:14] {DeepO} anything else? [00:14] [12:14am] {vondrack} do not put too much effort into this [00:14] [12:14am] {vondrack} you need to focus elsewhere [00:14] {DeepO} np, these kind of things are fun too dig through [00:14] {DeepO} true... [00:14] [12:14am] {vondrack} I guess it is time to get some sleep now [00:14] {DeepO} yeah, that's what ai was thinking too [00:14] [12:14am] {vondrack} [00:15] [12:15am] {Sharpe} yeah, what is it 1:20 am there? [00:15] [12:15am] {vondrack} 0:20 [00:15] {DeepO} no, 0:20 for me [00:15] [12:15am] {Sharpe} hmm only 4 hours ahead now then [00:15] {DeepO} but still, heavy weekend to recuperate from [00:15] [12:15am] {Sharpe} oops , nuts 6 hours [00:15] [12:15am] {vondrack} ok, then, I wish everybody sweet dreams! [00:15] {DeepO} bye everyone [00:15] [12:15am] {Sharpe} Night, nice chat! [00:15] [12:15am] {vondrack} g'night! [00:15] {DeepO} I'm logging off to [00:15] {DeepO} too [00:16] {DeepO} see you [00:16] [12:16am] {nbarclay} Bye everyone. It's been great chatting. [00:16] [12:16am] {vondrack} yep, the pleasure was ours [00:16] [12:16am] {vondrack} bye [00:16] [12:16am] Quits: nbarclay (~nbarclay@rbn1-216-180-19-109.adsl.hiwaay.net) (Quit: IceChat IRC Client - Download at www.IceChat.net) Session Close: Mon Apr 14 00:16:29 2003

	14-04-2003 03:42									#74
	Suffering from ads?

I know I'm not supposed to post here, but AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAArrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Do you realise that's 3 hours worth of DeepO typing !!!!!!!

(just edit this post with a next message, had to get it of my chest )

	14-04-2003 17:56									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

phhh... I was out of stuff to tell them, so it wasn't really at full speed. Plus, as said, I fully suspect Nathan is a faster typist then I am, I don't think I'll get to 300 chars per minute anymore (with typos)

Actually, it's nice to see the thank you notes each week, they might think we gave a lot of info, but of course we give a lot of info we want to give to Lego. The more they are willing to accept the general stuff, the more they will also follow our views, or at least think about what we mention as concerns. I'm pretty sure RP is now viewed upon a lot less favorable then before.

Anyway, the iron mystery has been solved, they moved a city, and the second source was outside their cultural borders. No wonder it doesn't show up

quote: Well, I found it one of the strangest bugs I heared of, so it's good to see it has been resolved. See you soon, DeepO quote: Hi, DeepO! It is quite embarrasing, but my yesterday's question about the "missing" iron was actually extremely stupid. We do have it roaded and connected to the capital, but it is not within our cultural borders yet (we eventually repositioned the nearest city and I am still having it mixed), as one of our members not attending the chat pointed out to me today, after reading the log in our forum. Forget about the problem, please, there is none. Sorry for wasting your time. Cheers, vondrack

	24-05-2003 16:29									#76
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I've sent our offer for Theology to redstar1 and vondrack:

quote: Honorable vondrack of Legoland. Greetings from the land of the Storm. I hope things are going well on your peaceful land. Our people envy yours, for they have almost forgotten how it was living peacefuly, with little fear of untimely death. Fortunately, our enemy's forces experience untimely death more frequently than ours, which are of course good news. With our recent progress in the war, our minds are now set on issues other than warplans, such as tech trade. I am sure you remember we once discussed the prospect of future tech trades, more precisely- us purchasing Theology from you in exchange to Feudalism and a sum of gold to compensate you for the tech cost difference. We assume you are still interested, and that you will soon (if not already) have the tech in your possession. Therefor, we are coming with this offer for a trade agreement. I hope you find it reasonable: 1) GS and Legoland will exchange the techs Theology (Lego) for Feudalism (GS). 2) On the same turn, GS will deliver 60 gold in lump sum, to compensate Legoland for the difference in beaker cost of the two techs. Please reply as soon as possible, and if possible- your current estimate on the ETA of Theology, in case you havn't finished research yet. Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.

	24-05-2003 19:17									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Vondrack's reply- seems like it'll be a while before we'll be closing anything.

quote: Honorable Ambassador, I am hereby acknowledging the receipt of your kind offer. I have already posted it in our forum and will get back to you once my fellow Legos comment on it. Due to the change of our team government and several Legos being offline due to the Memorial Day weekend, I believe Tuesday is when I, our new President ZargonX, or our ambassador will be authorized to discuss your offer in detail. We shall have Theology ready for trading by that time. Best regards, vondrack, The President of Legoland

	31-05-2003 15:17									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Our "harsh" message to Legoland:

quote: Respected vondrack of Legoland. I have not recieved word from you regarding the proposal I had sent you, but I did get an answer from looking at the save file. Your decision to buy Feudalism from another source was quite disappointing for the team and I. The team as a whole expected Lego to acquire the tech from us, as part of a Theology deal, as was discussed a while ago in a chat we've had. We saw no reason to suspect you'd change your mind- that is not to say we did not expect the possibility of such development, which is also why I have sent you the last proposal, but I had assumed that we would at least recieve a refusal in the diplomatic channel, and not have to find out about it ourselves. Sincerely Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.

	31-05-2003 21:50									#79
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

A reply from vondrack:

quote: Respected Ambassador, We sincerely apologize for not getting back to you sooner. The issue of acquiring Feudalism got tricky this week, with quite an unexpected event happening - and the team discussion on how to react and how to properly respond to your proposal, considering the new situation, lead to the delay. It was, however, our fault we did not at least notify you of the development. Accept our apologies for that. The primary event making things complicated was that we received Feudalism from another team. We did not trade for it - we were simply sent it as "accepted" with no ties attached. This put us into a pretty delicate position, as it's rather difficult to reject such a gift without offending the donor - but we had, at the same time, parallel negotiations going on regarding the acquisition of Feudalism from you. Now, after some discussion and hesitation, we eventually accepted the unexpected Feudalism - you do not find it lying around every day... and we are now trying to come up with a fair deal that would allow us to trade you Theology for a price reflecting our desire to maintain good trading relations, while taking into consideration that we no longer need Feudalism. I am not in a position allowing me to submit an official trade proposal - but I would like to let you know there is currently an idea having a strong support in our team. According to this plan, we'd sell you Theology for a relatively moderate amount of gold, balancing the price by a "no-wonder" clause. Let me explain: as you probably know, Legoland is quite short of luxuries. We only have one kind here, Dyes. In order to grant our people happy lives, we'll have to make extreme efforts constructing happiness city improvements, trading technologies and gold for the luxuries we lack, and so on. As part of our efforts, we consider building the Sistine's Chapel. We are well aware of that building wonders is always a risky race, often leading to a "waste" of enormous amounts of shields. Thus, we are trying to arrange agreements with other teams that would allow us to safely finish building the Sistine's Chapel. Would your team be willing to waive the possibility of building the Sistine's Chapel in exchange for buying Theology from us for a sum of gold significantly lower than what would be appropriate to the research cost of this technology? As no technology as costly as Theology has been discovered yet, it is a bit difficult to set a price that could be easily recognized as "advantageous"... but ATM, we are thinking along the lines of what you asked for the cheaper Feudalism, maybe even less. The no-Sistine clause is a focus here, more than the gold is... If you can let us know how does this idea sound to you, we would be able to formulate/send an official proposal faster. Keep in mind, please, that I am sort of exceeding my authorization now, in an attempt to fix our fault of seemingly ignoring your latest tech trade proposal. I have not been authorized to submit this as an official proposal - though I strongly believe this will become our official proposal once our members come back on Monday and the discussion reaches a conclusion (your positive or negative feedback regarding the idea might help a lot) - but unfortunately, our team life pretty much stops on weekends, with very few active members remaining available for decision taking... Best regards, vondrack, Military Architect of Legoland

My reply

quote: Honorable Vondrack of Legoland. Thank you for the quick and detailed response. I will post your message on our private board. Hopefully in the next few days I can get back to you with a reply, if not to a fomal proposal, than at least to the general idea of trade you've proposed. Regards Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.

	15-06-2003 00:38									#80
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

argonX we also would like to chat with you. DeepO is your assigned ambassador, but I would like to be here. I am busy today but Maybe sunday or just about any weekday night (PDT). Check in with DeepO, Ill bet he has the most restrictive schedule...

quote: ZargonX wrote on 13-06-2003 22:33: MSS, The people of Legoland would like to schedule a time we could perhaps chat with someone representing your team (my apologies, but I am not positive who your ambassador to us is). Please contact me if this would be possible. Thank you, ZargonX

	15-06-2003 06:04									#81
	Inflate your Upload Space

PM to vondrack:

quote: Hello again. I feel like a goof. I forgot to note that the mIRC client I was using was not logging. Doh! Sounds just like my l33t skillz, yes? Could you provide me with a log of the chat? It would be much appreciated. We can wait for someone else who was around to be back, but time may be a critical element in these matters. notyoueither@hotmail.com if you have it handy. Thanks. Oh, one other thing. We are aware that there are forces other than those of Vox or GS on their way to the Isle of Stormia. Their landing would be very problematic for these negotiations. Might even derail them entirely. Could Lego put the word out among other nations to whomever may control these mercenaries that having their minions land would be counterproductive? I will try, but my contacts are not well developed, and time may be an issue. PS. I was a dove. I am inclined to help these negotiations along. If there is anything you can do to help, please let me know.

	15-06-2003 10:54									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Log from vondrack:

Session Start: Sat Jun 14 23:21:49 2003
Session Ident: #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[23:21] * Now talking in #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[23:21] {Shiber> yo yo yo
[23:21] * Shiber sets mode: +o vondrack
[23:22] {Shiber> it's the von
[23:22] {vondrack> ok, what pleasures exactly?
[23:22] {vondrack>
[23:22] {Shiber> What, getting to talk to me is not pleasurable enough?
[23:22] {vondrack> oops...
[23:22] {Shiber> OK, I'll give you some pleasures...
[23:22] {Shiber> :dirtiest-dance-ever:
[23:22] {Shiber> There. How was I?
[23:22] {vondrack> Awesome!
[23:23] {vondrack> I am still trying to get my mIRC back into order...
[23:23] {vondrack> most buttons danced away seeing your performance...
[23:24] {Shiber> lol
[23:24] {vondrack> who's going to attend?
[23:25] {Shiber> me and that invisible cat over there
[23:25] {Shiber> and hopefully at least one of my teammates can come on such a short notice
[23:25] {vondrack> ok, just gimme a shout when you want to start
[23:25] {Shiber> noone has even viewed the thread but m yet
[23:25] {Shiber> *me
[23:26] {vondrack> yeah... that was exactly my problem with PMing GS...
[23:26] {Shiber> anyway, lots of barbarians in your 'hood, i hear
[23:26] {Shiber> i heard that vox is moving in soon though
[23:26] {vondrack> yeah... we have been able to pull a great contract with them
[23:27] {vondrack> moving in?
[23:27] {Shiber> i've spoken with some members of vox, they talk like they've already settled an agreement with you
[23:27] {Shiber> not you in particular, your team
[23:28] {vondrack> yes, there were extensive discussions held
[23:28] {Shiber> and they resulted in...?
[23:28] {vondrack> nothing tangible yet
[23:28] {vondrack> but I will explain
[23:28] {Shiber> What does that mean?
[23:28] {Shiber> I mean, are they moving in or not?
[23:29] {Shiber> This kindof concerns GS too, I reckon
[23:29] {vondrack> I think that pretty much depends on what YOU do...
[23:29] {Shiber> Yes, but we've already made ourselves clear.
[23:30] {Shiber> And Beta has killed any remaining chances for peace with Vox still on the continent.
[23:30] {vondrack> yes, that part is clear
[23:31] {Shiber> Not really killed, more like tortured, raped, mutilated, pulled by the hair into an industrial meat tenderizer, melted, vaporized, loaded onto a rocket and blasted it off into the sun
[23:31] {Shiber> or something
[23:31] {vondrack> but I also read quite clearly that a major part of GS wants Voxes dead... so that's why I am saying it depends on you, too
[23:32] {Shiber> Even I'm not sure if I want to go for the Voxodus anymore, or if we'd rather destroy Vox and sink any fleeing galleys in order to eliminate the source of the backroom diplomacy epidemic that's killing the game
[23:32] {vondrack> wanna kill the source of the backroom diplomacy, Shiber?
[23:33] {Shiber> I'd love to, yes
[23:33] {vondrack> you better start building up militarily then...
[23:33] {Shiber> Please explain
[23:33] {vondrack> you would have a couple more teams to go
[23:33] {vondrack> GS & ND are the only teams not involved in this
[23:33] {vondrack> in diplomacy, I mean
[23:34] {Shiber> There are certain levels of backroom diplomacy that I'm willing to tolerate
[23:34] {Shiber> Vox has crossed my final red line
[23:34] * vondrack sighs
[23:34] {Shiber> Constantly trying to stain our image, sending PMs full of lies to other teams behind our backs...
[23:34] {Shiber> I know what you're thinking, Vondrack. "There's so much he doesn't know about what goes on behind his team's back"
[23:34] {vondrack> and I was trying to point out that what you believe may not be what is actually true
[23:35] {Shiber> Or at least I think I know what you're thinking
[23:35] {vondrack> partially, yes
[23:35] {vondrack> I believe you are readin' too much evil into what Vox do
[23:35] {Shiber> We believe that Vox is coordinating public attacks behind our backs and soliciting responses from other teams, and we suspect that they have a puppetmaster
[23:35] {vondrack> or maybe I am simply well "processed" by their propaganda? )
[23:36] {vondrack> I do not believe there is any puppetmaster
[23:36] {vondrack> honestly
[23:36] {Shiber> vondrack, when attacks on your team's integrity, morality, character and agenda are being made constantly, in public and in private channels, you start to get a little pissed off
[23:37] {Shiber> Beta is surprised that his constant slander is seen as personal attacks
[23:37] {Shiber> But I'd love to see him in our shoes
[23:37] {Shiber> Anyway, this whole affair is REALLY getting all the fun out of the game
[23:37] {Shiber> for me, and for several of my friends
[23:39] {vondrack> don't take it that seriously... no offense meant, but you get heated up rather quickly
[23:39] {vondrack> Shiber, could you invite ZargonX?
[23:39] {vondrack> he just dropped in to our Lego room
[23:39] {Shiber> just did
[23:39] {vondrack> ok, thanks
[23:39] {Shiber> vondrack, this has gone on for about two months now
[23:40] {Shiber> but you say "rather quickly"
[23:40] {vondrack> I know - been watching it
[23:40] {vondrack> "rather quickly" as in "rather quickly every time something like this happens"
[23:40] {Shiber> vondrack, let me tell you something
[23:41] {Shiber> GS, as you know, is comprised mainly of strat forum guys
[23:41] {vondrack> sure, I know that
[23:42] {Shiber> Before the game began, the team has decided that as the so-called strat forum team, we must take a very strict code of honor and honesty
[23:42] {Shiber> Otherwise, if we win or at least get close to that position, others might say "oh, as if all of their strat forum expertise wasn't enough, they had to lie and cheat in the process to get to where they are"
[23:43] {Shiber> We are very very strict about honor and honesty. We never, ever, lie or break promises or treaties. We don't tell half truths, we don't bend truths...
[23:43] {Shiber> We have discussions revolving around "Would doing this be fair / honest?"-type questions in our private forum all the time
[23:43] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited ZargonX into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[23:44] * ZargonX has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[23:44] {Shiber> That is why when Beta claimed publicly that we were violating agreements, it was the beginning of the end
[23:44] {ZargonX> hello, Shiber!
[23:44] {Shiber> hi ZargonX!
[23:44] {Shiber> From there it went downhill
[23:44] {vondrack> Shiber, can you invite Sharpe, please?
[23:44] {Shiber> Every time Beta opens his mouth, more people in GS are turned in favor of elimination rather than peace
[23:44] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited Sharpe into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[23:45] * Shiber sets mode: +o ZargonX
[23:45] {Shiber> Anyway, Vondrack, there's something that you wanted to say
[23:46] {Shiber> And it's 00:45AM local time, so I suggest that you start
[23:46] {vondrack> k
[23:46] {vondrack> so I take it we are not going to wait for anyone else, right?
[23:46] * Sharpe has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[23:46] {Sharpe> Hi!
[23:46] {Shiber> hello Sharpe
[23:46] {Shiber> enjoy all the pleasure that this house has to offer
[23:47] {Shiber> :dirtiest-dance-ever:
[23:47] {Shiber> How was that?
[23:47] {Sharpe> :sharpe pukes:
[23:47] {Sharpe> hehe
[23:47] {Shiber> Well done! You get op for that
[23:47] * Shiber sets mode: +o Sharpe
[23:47] {vondrack> alright then, on the topic
[23:47] {Shiber> I mean, a special hat shaped like a @
[23:47] {vondrack> I know I want to go to bed as much as you do
[23:48] {vondrack> first, our reasons to wish for peace
[23:49] {vondrack> I actually hinted at one of them pretty clearly in my very first post in "that thread"
[23:49] {vondrack> just that nobody noticed, it seems
[23:49] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited nye_too into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[23:49] {vondrack> ah, ok, I will hold on a sec
[23:49] {Sharpe> any other GSers able to join us?
[23:49] {Shiber> You want their Engineering
[23:49] {Shiber> NYE is coming
[23:50] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited nye_too into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[23:50] {Shiber> Or he should be
[23:50] {vondrack> I suspect he is doing the ISDG stuff
[23:51] * nye_too has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[23:51] {vondrack> hi, nye!
[23:51] {Shiber> YAAY!
[23:51] {Shiber>
[23:51] {nye_too> hello
[23:51] {Sharpe> nbarclay is also on poly now, with SirRalph, Aeson and Lawrence of Arabia
[23:51] {Shiber> vondrack was just about to spill all the beans on why Lego is so interested in Vox's continued existence
[23:52] {nye_too> shiber must have wanted to keep you all to himself
[23:52] {vondrack> are we waiting for anyone else then?
[23:52] {vondrack> LoL
[23:52] {Shiber> If we keep on waiting I'll fall asleep over the keyboard
[23:53] {vondrack> not really, he's been doing his best to bring more of you in here
[23:53] {vondrack> ok, I will go on then
[23:53] {Shiber> You'll know when this happens because you'll see a stream of characters
[23:53] {nye_too> please do
[23:53] {vondrack> for nye:
[23:53] {vondrack> [23:48] {vondrack> first, our reasons to wish for peace
[23:53] {vondrack> [23:49] {vondrack> I actually hinted at one of them pretty clearly in my very first post in "that thread"
[23:53] {vondrack> [23:49] {vondrack> just that nobody noticed, it seems
[23:53] {vondrack> that's all I managed to say so far
[23:53] {vondrack> to quote myself:
[23:54] {vondrack> Wars do very little good to building generally... and to well planned building in particular.
[23:54] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited SirRalph into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[23:54] {vondrack> Jesus...
[23:54] {Shiber> lol
[23:54] * SirRalph has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[23:54] {SirRalph> hello
[23:54] {vondrack> hello, Sir Ralph!
[23:55] {nye_too> hi, sir ralph
[23:55] {SirRalph> hi everyone
[23:55] {vondrack> anyone else to come?
[23:55] {Shiber> Let's assume not
[23:55] {Shiber> vondrack, please continue
[23:55] {vondrack> ok
[23:55] {Shiber> For SirRalph:
[23:55] {vondrack> recap one more time
[23:55] {Shiber> {vondrack> first, our reasons to wish for peace
[23:55] {Shiber> {vondrack> I actually hinted at one of them pretty clearly in my very first post in "that thread"
[23:55] {Shiber> {vondrack> just that nobody noticed, it seems
[23:55] {Shiber> {vondrack> Wars do very little good to building generally... and to well planned building in particular.
[23:55] {vondrack> right
[23:55] {vondrack> thanks
[23:55] {Shiber> There, I've said it. Feels good to get all that off my chest...
[23:55] {ZargonX> hey SirRalph
[23:56] * Shiber sets mode: +oo nye_too SirRalph
[23:56] * Shiber sets mode: +o SirRalph
[23:56] {vondrack> I thought I was pretty specific... I was talking about great leaders and wonders
[23:56] {nye_too> ahh. i see
[23:56] {vondrack> not that we would have ever planned to build SUn Tzu
[23:56] {vondrack> so that was no problem
[23:56] {Shiber> But all that stuff is mainly role play
[23:57] {vondrack> but there are important wonder builds we have ahead of us
[23:57] {vondrack> so ANY war is posing an ongoing risk for anyone trying to build wonder the hard way
[23:57] {Shiber> And... you don't want us getting any more leaders?
[23:57] {Shiber> Seriously, if you don't want us to build a certain wonder, negotiate a treaty.
[23:58] {SirRalph> I didn't even think of this stance, lol
[23:58] {vondrack> I will not pretend this is the only reason, but it is an important one
[23:58] {vondrack> let me go through all of that first, please
[23:58] {vondrack> it is a lot of things
[23:58] {nye_too> ok
[23:58] {Shiber> Well, you don't want people getting unplanned leaders and stealing wonders below your nose. So does everybody else.
[23:59] {vondrack> so, yes, this is one important aspect of why we would prefer the war was over quickly
[23:59] {Shiber> Don't be offended, I'm just trying to rush you because I estimate that I will fall asleep and my head would crash over the keyboard in roughly 4 minutes and 37 seconds
[23:59] {Shiber> vondrack, but this aspect is of no interest to us
[23:59] {vondrack> just as I anckowledged I understand your reasons to drive Voxes off Estonia
[23:59] {Shiber> On the other hand, it's a reason for us to continue the war
[23:59] {vondrack> then we have reasons to wish this war was over
[23:59] {nye_too> shiber, please let him speak
[23:59] {vondrack> right
[00:00] {nye_too> other reasons, vondrack?
[00:00] {vondrack> so it seems you would like to see something in exchange, right?
[00:00] {vondrack> yes, there are more reasons
[00:00] {vondrack> but they would not be worth the hassle of getting heavily involved
[00:00] {nye_too> please continue
[00:01] {vondrack> I believe we did tell DeepO
[00:01] {vondrack> that we have one problem here in Legoland
[00:01] {nye_too> deepO has not been around much. when did you message him?
[00:01] {vondrack> Shiber, can you reinvite Zargon, please?
[00:01] {SirRalph> what kind of problem?
[00:01] {vondrack> it was a looong time ago, nye
[00:01] {Sharpe> he also wonders how to get rid of ghosts
[00:02] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited ZargonX2 into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[00:02] {vondrack> the problem is that although we started on a decent piece of land
[00:02] * ZargonX2 has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[00:02] {ZargonX2> sorry, power outage...
[00:02] {ZargonX2> crazy storms
[00:02] {vondrack> we have only one luxury of our own
[00:02] {vondrack> dyes
[00:02] {Shiber> ZargonX, /msg nickserv ghost zargonx your-password
[00:02] {ZargonX2> thanks
[00:02] * ZargonX has quit IRC (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by ZargonX2)))
[00:02] * ZargonX2 is now known as ZargonX
[00:03] {nye_too> i beleive i can say that gs is interested in trading luxuries.
[00:03] {SirRalph> I hope "crazy storms" wasn't meant to be an insult!
[00:03] {vondrack> so, as it seems, we are bound to be in for some serious happiness building
[00:03] {ZargonX>
[00:03] {Shiber> I took it as a compliment
[00:03] {vondrack> we consider one wonder quite important to us
[00:03] {vondrack> The Sistine's Chapel
[00:03] {Shiber> The Sistine
[00:03] {ZargonX> yes
[00:03] {Shiber> w00t
[00:03] {SirRalph> on chieftain, oh well
[00:03] {nye_too> that is an important one.
[00:03] {vondrack> so the idea of having a war anywhere in the world
[00:04] {vondrack> is not what we are thrilled about
[00:04] {nye_too> have you secured agreements with any other teams regarding it?
[00:04] {vondrack> working on that, nye
[00:04] {Shiber> Well, why haven't you tried to secure an agreement with us?
[00:04] {nye_too> he's here, shiber...
[00:04] {vondrack> hell, we are just trying to!
[00:04] {vondrack> let me finish that, please
[00:05] {vondrack> so:
[00:05] {Shiber> Yes, I mean through diplomatic channels, and earlier
[00:05] {vondrack> we did not think there was the right moment
[00:05] {vondrack> and now it seems it is 12:05
[00:05] {vondrack> anyway
[00:05] {SirRalph> it is, exactly
[00:06] {vondrack> in order to help solving the problem, we are ready to seriously consider
[00:06] {vondrack> giving you something to consider the peace option
[00:06] {vondrack> our proposal which was never sent due to the quick progress of the public debate
[00:07] {vondrack> making it constantly obsolete or not properly worded
[00:07] {vondrack> was something like this:
[00:07] {vondrack> if you let Voxes be (read: flee), we would give you Theology for free - naturally on condition you would waive Sistine's
[00:08] {vondrack> I know it is not much
[00:08] {vondrack> but then there is another thing
[00:08] {nye_too> go on
[00:08] {vondrack> I believe you do feel that your plan to finish Voxes off
[00:08] {vondrack> is not what other are ready to applaud to
[00:08] {vondrack> let's forget why
[00:08] {vondrack> it is a fact
[00:09] {vondrack> so, the other benefit you would get
[00:09] {vondrack> is that Voxes would be gone
[00:09] {vondrack> and our problem
[00:09] {vondrack> we actually have a piece of land here
[00:09] {vondrack> we could give them
[00:09] {vondrack> mostly mountains, no fresh water
[00:10] {vondrack> I would still rather start in their original location than on Legos Minor
[00:10] {vondrack> but... oh, well
[00:10] {nye_too> so you mean to see them flee?
[00:10] {vondrack> as if they had any chance to choose
[00:10] {vondrack> right - you would settle for peace and let them go
[00:10] {ZargonX> it is not our decision whether they flee or not; that falls to you
[00:10] {vondrack> we would allow them to settle on Legos Minor
[00:10] {vondrack> actually
[00:10] {nye_too> do you have their blessing for this?
[00:11] {vondrack> Legos Minor is quite similar to your continent in that
[00:11] {vondrack> it is connected to Legos Major with a single tile isthmus
[00:11] {vondrack> hell, I do not care if I have their blessing!
[00:11] {vondrack> they put us into a pretty precarious situation
[00:11] {vondrack> so they either accept or...
[00:11] {vondrack> and if you mean
[00:12] {Shiber> Or ask RP for land?
[00:12] {vondrack> whether we discussed this with them
[00:12] {vondrack> then yes, we did
[00:12] {SirRalph> I still don't understand, how you do benefit if they survive?
[00:12] {nye_too> ok. did they receive it well?
[00:12] {vondrack> we were trying to settle this mess for quite some time
[00:12] {vondrack> yes, more or less well
[00:13] {vondrack> not that they would be thrilled about the idea of having to leave their homeland
[00:13] {vondrack> but they seem to realize their odds
[00:13] {nye_too> do you and they have a plan for evacuation?
[00:13] {vondrack> nothing firm yet, but working on that
[00:13] {nye_too> any idea on timeline?
[00:13] {ZargonX> not as of yet
[00:14] {nye_too> hmmm
[00:14] {vondrack> Sir Ralph: we sort of gave them our word we would
[00:14] {vondrack> help them save their lives
[00:14] {vondrack> so we are now bound to keep that promise
[00:14] {SirRalph> but if we finish them, their demise cant be blamed on you, though
[00:14] {vondrack> this is not about making an alibi
[00:14] {vondrack> besides
[00:14] {ZargonX> that is true; however, if we don't even try to discuss options, that in itself is a failing
[00:15] {nye_too> well, if push came to shove, we could not stop anyone from gifting them a city.
[00:15] {SirRalph> Vox surviving is a risk for us even on another continent
[00:15] {vondrack> as I said, Voxes have been a good trading partner for us and we ourselves have no reason to want them dead
[00:15] {vondrack> it is dubious
[00:15] {vondrack> if they can ever become a trading partner worth anything again
[00:15] {vondrack> but anyway

	15-06-2003 10:56									#83
	Suffering from ads?

[00:15] {vondrack> but anyway
[00:16] {vondrack> we have considered all pros and cons
[00:16] {vondrack> and decided it would probably be best for us if we tried to settle things this way
[00:17] {vondrack> now, is there anything to talk about or shall we simply pack our sacks and get out of the room?
[00:17] {nye_too> well...
[00:17] {vondrack> I mean - what is your stance toward this idea?
[00:17] {Shiber> So you ask that we at least allow Vox time for an orderly evacuation, so that they could save as much of their population as possible?
[00:18] {nye_too> it is something that bears serious consideration by all memebrs of gs.
[00:18] {ZargonX> of course
[00:18] {nye_too> can i recap?
[00:18] {ZargonX> we would not expect you to make this decision hastily
[00:18] {SirRalph> i'm not thrilled at all letting Vox leave. They can seriously screw us by denying to trade their free tech. If Lego would guarantee, that it will be traded to us for a fair price, I might change my mind
[00:18] {nye_too> we stop the fighting between vox and us
[00:18] {nye_too> i will wait
[00:19] {nye_too> sir ralph makes a good point
[00:19] {vondrack> precisely, I am saying whether you would like to be able to get rid of your problem without further fuelling the emotions that are so abundant in the public thread
[00:19] {vondrack> we have not even spoken about the free tech
[00:19] {nye_too> of course there would be concerns from our side of the table
[00:19] {vondrack> with Voxes
[00:19] {vondrack> ok, go ahead - your concerns
[00:20] {nye_too> well, i could not list them all now, we have just opened the can, so to speak
[00:20] {nye_too> to recap the basics...
[00:20] {nye_too> the fighting between vox and gs stops
[00:20] {nye_too> lego gives gs theology
[00:21] {nye_too> vox leaves Stormia
[00:21] {nye_too> that is the basics?
[00:21] {vondrack> you waive Sistine's
[00:21] {ZargonX> plus a no-Sistene clause
[00:21] {nye_too> ahh yes.
[00:22] {nye_too> ok. concerns, off the top of my head...
[00:22] {vondrack> yes, that's the basics, I believe
[00:22] {vondrack> ok
[00:22] {nye_too> 1 vox army. most of it disbands before any cease fire goes into effect.
[00:23] {nye_too> 2 timing. what do they need to build and how long do they need
[00:23] {nye_too> 3. verification. we would need unhindered access to our new lands to verify comliance
[00:23] {nye_too> *compliance
[00:24] {nye_too> those would be concerns off the top of my head.
[00:24] {nye_too> oh, i could add...
[00:24] {nye_too> 4 harbour. the vox harbour is sold before the cease fire goes into effect
[00:24] {nye_too> No Iron for Vox before they vacate.
[00:25] {nye_too> i am sure there would be others
[00:25] {vondrack> right... all of them involve Vox in the first place, so we naturally cannot say "Yes, sir!" on the spot
[00:25] {SirRalph> I stated my concern. 2 free techs to go. Note, that I would not claim them for free, but I don't want them denied or sold for a horrible price only.
[00:25] {vondrack> but I do not consider them
[00:25] {nye_too> of course
[00:25] {vondrack> inappropriate
[00:26] {nye_too> sir ralph's concern is legitimate as well. as i said, i am sure there may be others
[00:26] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited alva_busy into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[00:26] {vondrack> Sir Ralph, I believe the free techs would not be part of the deal
[00:26] * alva_busy has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[00:26] {alva_busy>
[00:26] {alva_busy> Hi y'all
[00:27] {nye_too> vondrack. to be realistic, the hawks are going to require much convincing
[00:27] {SirRalph> I'm sorry, but in this case I won't vote for your plan
[00:27] {vondrack> pleae, both of you: understand that there is a certain line we can go to
[00:27] {nye_too> i understand, vondrack
[00:27] {vondrack> this must be a deal even for us
[00:28] {vondrack> as it is, we are waiving part of the land we have considered "ours"
[00:28] {nye_too> but understand, you are asking people who have been gravely insulted to allow the offending party to escape
[00:28] {vondrack> please, nye, I have had enough of that in the public thread... let's speak business
[00:29] {nye_too> i would like to, vondrack
[00:29] {nye_too> but i am letting you know realisitcally, what the situation within gs is.
[00:30] {ZargonX> understood
[00:30] {ZargonX> I know there are strong feelings around this issue, and they will not be resolved simply
[00:30] {nye_too> yes, zargon. you are accurate
[00:31] {vondrack> if you believe feelings are stuff to be traded, then keep in mind the sentiment expressed by many in the public thread
[00:31] {SirRalph> I would also like to talk business. If Lego adds a guarantee, that the free techs will be traded to GS, if not by Vox, so by Lego itself (Note: traded, not gifted!), I rest my case and vote dove. If not, not.
[00:32] {vondrack> by agreeing to peace, you gain a lot in the "eyes of the world", to put it poetically
[00:32] {ZargonX> I can only speak for myself, and not my team, but I believe a deal could be reached
[00:32] {ZargonX> it would require discussion, of course, but that is for a future date
[00:32] {nye_too> and by finishing vox we could conceivably gain leo's and the sistine.
[00:32] {ZargonX> Again, speaking only for myself, I do consider GS an "enemy"
[00:33] {vondrack> ??????
[00:33] {vondrack> Zargon!
[00:33] {nye_too> typo, i suspect
[00:33] {SirRalph> interesting
[00:33] {ZargonX> do not!
[00:33] {ZargonX> sorry!
[00:33] {ZargonX> that was a typo
[00:33] * vondrack sighs in relief
[00:33] {ZargonX> phew... now that's a serious diplomatic typo to make :P
[00:33] {vondrack> that would be quite a surprise...
[00:33] {ZargonX> allow me to restate:
[00:34] {ZargonX> I do not consider GS an enemy
[00:34] {SirRalph> granted
[00:34] {ZargonX> at the moment, there is a situation with differing viewpoints, but one that I feel can be worked through
[00:34] {vondrack> rereading what Sir Ralph said: I think trading the techs would not be a problem
[00:34] {vondrack> for some reason I assumed he was talking abour getting them for free - sorry
[00:35] {nye_too> understood.
[00:35] {vondrack> re: Sistine's and Leo's
[00:35] {ZargonX> excuse me, brb
[00:35] {vondrack> that assumes you would have Theology and Invention
[00:35] {nye_too> yes. it would.
[00:35] {vondrack> researching Thelogy would put you further behind
[00:36] {vondrack> since you would be wasting beakers on something
[00:36] {vondrack> others are going to get from us
[00:36] {vondrack> OTOH
[00:36] {nye_too> of course, what we are discussing are hypotheticals
[00:36] {vondrack> if you get Theo
[00:36] {vondrack> you can start on, say, Printing press
[00:36] {vondrack> and get back into the race
[00:36] {nye_too> that poses a problem as well.
[00:37] {vondrack> problem?
[00:37] {nye_too> we are under the impression that we have been the subject of an embargo.
[00:37] {nye_too> that embargo has damaged our position.
[00:38] {vondrack> as far as I know there was no embargo put in effect
[00:38] {vondrack> can speak for Lego only though
[00:38] {nye_too> i am sure that nathan will have some ideas on what would need to be done to address that
[00:38] {nye_too> it has been reported to us. we do not require confirmation or denial
[00:38] {vondrack> ok, let me rephrase: Legoland has never agreed to embargo you
[00:39] {vondrack> the fact we did not trade for Feudalism/Theology was that the deal was not fine
[00:39] {vondrack> we did not need Feu for quite some time
[00:39] {vondrack> and then we simply "got it"
[00:40] {SirRalph> Hmmm. Do we need Theology?
[00:40] {vondrack> sorry if this did harm to you, but there was no evil intention
[00:40] {nye_too> we will consider what you have said.
[00:40] {vondrack> not sure, Sir Ralph - you must know
[00:40] {nye_too> at this point, i am anticipating things that may be brought up.
[00:41] {vondrack> yes?
[00:41] {nye_too> that is all. i mentioned the embargo, bacause i am sure it will brought up.
[00:41] {vondrack> aha
[00:41] {vondrack> that's something I have really nothing to comment on
[00:42] {vondrack> as I said - we never joind any embargo against you
[00:42] {vondrack> and I believe I can even say
[00:42] {nye_too> yes. well. vox is the subject of the excercise.
[00:42] {nye_too> not just lego
[00:42] {vondrack> we have never heard of one being put in effect
[00:42] {vondrack> but then, even we may not know everything
[00:43] {nye_too> let's leave that alone. as i said, we do not need confirmation or denial
[00:43] {vondrack> alright
[00:44] {Shiber> So, to recap, what is Lego offering GS in exchange for allowing Vox to flee?
[00:44] {vondrack> nye have done a precise recap already
[00:44] {vondrack> 1) you get Theology
[00:44] {nye_too> with the addition of us renouncing sistine
[00:44] {vondrack> yes
[00:45] {vondrack> 2) you get rid of the Voxian PR-problem
[00:45] {vondrack> other issues would be brought up by you
[00:45] {Shiber> What are the chances of article 2's realization?
[00:45] {Shiber> I suspect that most teams were pro-peace because it weakens us
[00:45] {nye_too> slim to none, i'd say
[00:45] {Shiber> But in an evacuation agreement, we still get Vox's territory
[00:46] {nye_too> that may well pose a problem in it's own right
[00:46] {vondrack> heh, but insisted on "wishing peace"
[00:46] {vondrack> so you get the upper hand now
[00:46] {Shiber> Noone would show up to applaud any agreement we sign with Vox, I'm sure. Not even if it's the one that Beta proposed in his thread.
[00:47] {vondrack> guys, there is only so much we can do to help your PR-position
[00:47] {Sharpe> what status is the war at currently anyway?
[00:47] {nye_too> you mean the one that was discussed between beta and i a month ago, and that he did not propose until Inchon?
[00:47] {Shiber> Yes, lol
[00:47] {vondrack> sorry - I have no idea what you are now talking about
[00:48] {nye_too> the peace that beta proposed was discussed between he and i a month or more ago.
[00:48] {vondrack> wow, time is flying...
[00:48] {nye_too> vox sat on it and sat on it, as the tide turns
[00:48] {nye_too> then, once we have them by the ... they propose it even though we already had most all of hat was in it.
[00:49] {nye_too> i thought perhaps other teams would be interested in that
[00:49] {vondrack> yeah... I have always thought GS could use a PR-guy...
[00:50] {SirRalph> maybe
[00:50] {nye_too> actually, i think the game could use a lot less people speaking weasel words.
[00:50] {vondrack> LoL
[00:50] {vondrack> what do we do about Togas then?
[00:50] {nye_too> heh
[00:50] {Sharpe> another typo?
[00:51] {vondrack> LoL
[00:51] {nye_too> he is fine. i hold no grudge against him. however, some of the methods are bound to raise feelings
[00:51] {vondrack> my words
[00:51] {nye_too> how could they not?
[00:51] {vondrack> I actually often admire how he struggles with his very nature
[00:51] {vondrack> yeah, right...
[00:52] {nye_too> actually, you are not innacurate
[00:52] {vondrack> does that mean I hit the nail on the head?
[00:52] {nye_too> he is very intelligent, but that temper.
[00:52] {vondrack> right
[00:53] {alva_busy> sounds familiar
[00:53] {nye_too> hehe
[00:53] {SirRalph> I'm not very good at chit-chatting. Have we finished the "official" part of the meeting?
[00:53] {nye_too> i beleive so
[00:53] {vondrack> me too
[00:53] {vondrack> Sir Ralph - it can be learnt!
[00:53] {vondrack> I used to be like you, I guess...
[00:54] {vondrack> chit-chatting = waste of time
[00:54] {SirRalph> well, vondrack, I am an IRC veteran, but with the years I evaluate my spare time some higher
[00:54] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited Aeson into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[00:54] {SirRalph> thanks for the chat. good night (well, or evening for that matter)
[00:55] {vondrack> I believe I perfectly know what you are talking about
[00:55] {nye_too> g'night
[00:55] {vondrack> good night
[00:55] {alva_busy> night SR
[00:55] {Shiber> night everyone
[00:55] {nye_too> take care
[00:55] {Shiber> i'm off myself
[00:55] {SirRalph> bye
[00:55] {Shiber> it's terribly late
[00:55] * SirRalph has quit IRC (Quit: warp 1.0: Nemo me impune lacessit)
[00:55] {vondrack> night, everybody!
[00:55] {alva_busy> see you Shiber
[00:55] {Shiber> see you everyone
[00:55] {ZargonX> 'night!
[00:55] {nye_too> g'night vondrack. it was a pleasure.
[00:55] * Aeson has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[00:55] {vondrack>
[00:55] * Shiber has quit IRC (Quit: Good night)
[00:55] {vondrack> as usually, nye
[00:55] {ZargonX> Aeson arrives as the party ends
[00:55] {nye_too>
[00:56] {vondrack> hello, Aeson!
[00:56] {Aeson> seems to always be the case
[00:56] {Aeson> hello
[00:56] {vondrack> the guests are just leaving...
[00:56] {alva_busy> hey Aeson
[00:56] {nye_too> hail orange
[00:56] {Sharpe> we can summarize yet again I suppose
[00:56] {alva_busy> yep, knew HE was coming
[00:56] {nye_too> brb
[00:56] {Aeson> I can wait for the log, thanks for the offer though Sharpe
[00:56] {vondrack> mostly annoyed by the serious discussion degenerating into a mere chit-chat...
[00:56] {vondrack>
[00:57] {alva_busy> nothing new there then
[00:57] {Sharpe> lol, and how much percent is chit-chat in lego chat rooms?
[00:57] {Sharpe>
[00:57] {vondrack> is there any non-chit-chat there?
[00:57] {ZargonX> 85%
[00:57] {ZargonX> I did a calculation
[00:58] {vondrack> Aeson - will you ever consider rejoining the ISDG Team?
[00:58] {Sharpe> thought it was closer to 90% myself ...
[00:58] {alva_busy> say, I got a very short summary from Shiber, but I guess it wasn't complete. Was Engineering mentioned at any time?
[00:58] {vondrack> Engineering?
[00:58] {vondrack> nope
[00:58] {alva_busy> ah, ok
[00:58] {Sharpe> actually what is GS researching ATM?
[00:58] {alva_busy> sorry, my mistake
[00:59] {Aeson> I don't think I'll be rejoining the ISDG
[00:59] {alva_busy> hum, what has NEY or SR told you???
[00:59] {alva_busy>
[00:59] {vondrack>
[00:59] {vondrack> sorry to hear that
[01:00] {Aeson> Not like there'd be anything left to do by the time I could... you guys should have won by then right?
[01:00] {vondrack> LoL
[01:01] {vondrack> I believe there will always be something left
[01:01] {ZargonX> plenty going on right now...
[01:02] {Aeson> It woudl be just like this chat... I join and everyone leaves... haha
[01:02] {nye_too> hehe
[01:02] {vondrack> LoL
[01:02] {ZargonX> heh, that would solve some of our issues if everyone else left
[01:02] {vondrack> LoL!
[01:02] {alva_busy> hey, I've been banned
[01:02] {nye_too> what?
[01:02] {ZargonX> from what?
[01:03] {Aeson> from where?
[01:03] {alva_busy> upload rule
[01:03] {vondrack> actually, Aeson, it's that the Consuls (whoever is that) need more people like you
[01:03] {alva_busy> not uploading files
[01:03] {alva_busy> related to the games site covers
[01:03] {nye_too> what did you upload?
[01:03] {vondrack> and they need some other better leave
[01:03] {vondrack> *others
[01:03] {alva_busy> Apparantly Dan has banned many people
[01:04] {nye_too> what did he ban you for?
[01:04] {Aeson> I honestly don't think it would be right for me to join again. I'm now officially an admin over at CFC so am privy to too many details of the goings on in their forums whether I like it or not.
[01:04] {vondrack> aha, I see
[01:04] {nye_too> ahh. too bad, Aeson
[01:04] {alva_busy> pff, Iil go check what I uploaded
[01:04] {nye_too> you are missed already
[01:05] {alva_busy> I can still post at the private forums though, another feature
[01:05] {nye_too> alva, pm me the details if you would.
[01:05] {alva_busy> ok
[01:06] {nye_too> i am off very soon. are we done?
[01:06] {alva_busy> I'll send you the mail I got
[01:06] {nye_too> ok
[01:07] {nye_too> bye everyone. i fget to go home now.
[01:07] {Sharpe> bye
[01:07] * nye_too has left #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[01:07] {vondrack> bye
[01:07] {vondrack> oops, missed it
[01:08] {Aeson> I'll be going now too. Hopefully the next one I can show up much later and GS and Lego can have a more extended conversation.
[01:09] {Aeson> bye
[01:09] * Aeson has quit IRC (Quit: )
[01:10] {Sharpe> guess I had better go too. Cya
[01:10] * Sharpe has left #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[01:21] * ZargonX has quit IRC (Quit: )
[01:21] {vondrack> I am going, too
[01:21] {vondrack> bye
Session Close: Sun Jun 15 01:21:56 2003

	15-06-2003 11:45									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

PM to vondrack:

quote: Hello again. I feel like a goof. I forgot to note that the mIRC client I was using was not logging. Doh! Sounds just like my l33t skillz, yes? Could you provide me with a log of the chat? It would be much appreciated. We can wait for someone else who was around to be back, but time may be a critical element in these matters. notyoueither@hotmail.com if you have it handy. Thanks. Oh, one other thing. We are aware that there are forces other than those of Vox or GS on their way to the Isle of Stormia. Their landing would be very problematic for these negotiations. Might even derail them entirely. Could Lego put the word out among other nations to whomever may control these mercenaries that having their minions land would be counterproductive? I will try, but my contacts are not well developed, and time may be an issue. PS. I was a dove. I am inclined to help these negotiations along. If there is anything you can do to help, please let me know.

	15-06-2003 11:49									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

PM received from vondrack:

quote: Hi, nye! Finished reading the news. I must admit that the public announcement of the StormHawk party is definitely the way to go on with our negotiations... I would have appreciated if we received at least some response to our proposal before your team pushes for the kill publicly... or, is this just an initiative of a small GS member group? We were honest in our offer and sincerely hoped you would consider it. Now, is this still an option or shall we consider the proposal officially rejected? vondrack P.S.: I will do my best to stop hostilities on Estonia/Stormia. Unfortunately, I have no control over other teams - but I have expressly demanded in my email to Beta (sent after our chat) that Vox stop any hostilities and sit on the save. I need some time to sort this out.

	15-06-2003 12:41									#86
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sent to vondrack:

quote: Hi, vondrack. This is just me speaking. No others from GS have seen this, nor could they endorse it, for obvious reasons. Please reread that thread. Theseus is trying to defuse emotions for the good of Apolyton. You may not consider things from Beta's threads to be very serious, but please try to place yourself in the shoes of members of the team being the target of them. Honestly, this game has gone off the rails in some respects and several members of GS are considering resigning because it is not fun to face that crap on a recurring basis. It was mildly fun to start with over a month ago, but... Several members of GS have a high sense of honour, and they feel that honour sullied by Beta's continuous assaults on the truth about us and our actions. Can you and Lego understand that? If you cannot, then you will never understand GS. Yes, Theseus is using the device of the StormHawks, but stay tuned, the peace marches start soon. It is intended to be fun. Please join in. No, the topics of the chat have not been rejected. No one else has been around for long enough to digest that chat. Please stay tuned.

	15-06-2003 22:40									#87
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

just send a response to Mss' PM asking for a chat (I was out the rest of this weekend, so I missed that a chat had already taken place), sending my available times, and saying that I was looking forward to chat. This is the response (and my response to it):

quote: Woops... sorry about that. I just came in, noticed I had a PM, and responded... only now am I browsing the forum. I haven't read the log yet. Sorry to be so badly informed, I really wish I had more time to spend. If possible, I'd like to attend next chat, though, although I fully agree that my team does not have to wait on me with the current busy period I'm going through. Looking forward to speak to you soon, DeepO quote: DeepO, As I'm sure you are already aware, we had a somewhat formal chat with several members of your team yesterday. However, I'm sure with events unfolding in various ways, more chats would be welcome. I am usually available weeknights from 5 AM GMT to 7 AM GMT, as well as some weekdays from 7 PM GMT to 10 PM GMT. I look forward to speaking more with the fine people of Gathering Storm! Thanks, ZargonX

	23-06-2003 23:17									#88
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Vondrack, redstar1, ZargonX, Arrian, Hello everyone, I hope everything is fine in Legoland. It has been a while since you last received a message from me, and I regret I wasn't able to join the last couple of chats (I've read the logs, of course). But, this is about to change back I hope, I enjoyed the (kind of) regular chats we had before the Voxian war started, and would like to get into that habit again. There are a couple of points I'd like to address: As it became clear I was not able to spend enough time on our game anymore, and lack of communication was certainly not doing GS any good on the diplomatic front, reinforcement to the Lego ambassador team was found. Arrian will be our vice-ambassador, I'm sure you can contact him with any worries in case I proof to be unavailable. Of course, contact with other members remains possible (e.g. nye), but this should make our relation more fluent... we still consider Lego as one of the main parties we want to trade with. Further, the silence of the past months was intentional, and although I posted this before I shut up, I hope you also see this in light of our war, and do not see it as a insult of any kind to you. As a team policy, it was decided the moment Vox attacked us that we would stop communicating with any other team unless we really had something to sell / needed to get. In hindsight, that was not the best decision (seeing our current isolation), and perhaps it would have been better if I explained our changed policy to you better. My apologies for that. That said, we would love to get the regular chats going again, like we had before all of this started. I couldn't make it yesterday (we had them at Sundays around 21 GMT, IIRC), but if any of you can find some time tonight, I would certainly like to join for some talk. We still have a couple of things to discuss... I hope that my schedule will allow me to keep this up, but otherwise Arrian should be available around the same time, if he ever succeeds in installing mIRC Then, onto business. It looks like we are going to ratify the Voxodus plan, and I wonder how far you're up to date on the progress here. I'd also like to chat to see your view on this... I appreciate the mediator role Vondrack played in this war, however quite a number of questions remain unanswered. If interested, I would also like to give you more insight in our PoV, even if at the moment it seems to be rather calm in our forum. You have already heared this in chat, but to make things a bit more official: We'd like to offer you our WM. I know you are not going to trade your WM for it, however seeing that for us the need for secrecy has dropped, we want to open up our map. Do you have anything you want to offer in return? And lastly (note this has not been confirmed, nor tested!): We know you have a (urgent) need for luxuries. There may be a possibility for us to trade these to you... you know we've build the lighthouse, and AFAIK that makes trades over sea tiles possible, even before Astronomy. But, there have to be a couple of other things present: a harbor on both sides, a visible trade route, etc. We're currently building on harbors, so in case you would agree to purchase our WM, and have a visible harbor on your own, we may be able to trade luxuries to you (we have 2 of them). Again, this is not confirmed, I asked for confirmation a couple of times in our forum, but nobody seems to know the definate answer to this. And currently, very few people seem to have time to test this. So... you might want to find out for yourselves, I'm sorry I can't do more then offer the possibility. If you could get back to me with possible chat times, it would be great. Kind regards, DeepO

	23-06-2003 23:59									#89
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Ah, no problem on being brief... I like it when people are to the point. I'm going to find myself some dinner, so in about an hour would be superb for me too I'll see if I can find Arrian to join us (most likely this would be a bit too early for him) DeepO quote: Hello, DeepO! Sorry to respond so briefly - doing something else right now. I should be available for the most part of this evening, starting in about an hour or so... I will try hanging out in the main Poly chatroom, so if you happen to drop in, feel free to open a private channel. I would sure appreciate a chat with you, discussing whatever has been or is going on. Cheers, vondrack

	24-06-2003 03:38									#90
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Session Start: Mon Jun 23 22:37:35 2003 [22:37] } Successfully joined #boemboem at 10:37pm [22:37] } Total People:1 Ops:1 Voices:0 [22:37] } Channel Modes: + [22:37] } Created on Monday, June 23rd, 2003 at 10:43pm [22:38] [10:38pm] DeepO sets mode: +i [22:38] [10:38pm] DeepO sets mode: +p [22:39] *** Retrieving #boemboem info... [22:39] [10:39pm] DeepO sets mode: +s [22:39] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User Aeson has been invited to: #boemboem [22:39] [10:39pm] *apolyton.net(@#boemboem)* DeepO invited Aeson into channel #boemboem. [22:40] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User vondrack has been invited to: #boemboem [22:40] [10:40pm] *apolyton.net(@#boemboem)* DeepO invited vondrack into channel #boemboem. [22:40] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User redstar1 has been invited to: #boemboem [22:40] [10:40pm] *apolyton.net(@#boemboem)* DeepO invited redstar1 into channel #boemboem. [22:40] [10:40pm] Aeson (~aeson@dpc6682040106.direcpc.com) has joined. «2 people» [22:40] {DeepO} hi there [22:40] [10:40pm] {Aeson} Hello [22:40] {DeepO} still typing PMs [22:40] -} *vondrack* care to chat? use the invite I sent you... [22:41] -} *redstar1* care to chat? use the invite I sent you... [22:41] {DeepO} right [22:41] {DeepO} I invited redstar1 and vondrack, are any of the other legos here? [22:42] [10:42pm] {Aeson} not sure [22:42] {DeepO} let's wait then [22:42] [10:42pm] {Aeson} I'm trying to register my nick, but it doesn't like my email addresses [22:42] {DeepO} registring? [22:42] {DeepO} has that changed lately [22:42] {DeepO} ? [22:43] [10:43pm] {Aeson} I don't think so, just never registered [22:43] {DeepO} ah, ok [22:43] [10:43pm] {Aeson} last time I tried the nickserv server was down [22:43] {DeepO} then mine should still work [22:44] [10:44pm] {Aeson} NickServ- E-mail addresses must be in the form username@hostname. You may not use colors, bold, underline, or reverse, or any of these characters: , : ; | \ " ( ) { } [ ] [22:44] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User vondrack has been invited to: #boemboem [22:44] [10:44pm] *apolyton.net(@#boemboem)* DeepO invited vondrack into channel #boemboem. [22:44] [10:44pm] {Aeson} how does aeson@yahoo.com not work? [22:44] [10:44pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has joined. «3 people» [22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} hello! [22:44] {DeepO} erhm... can't help you there Aeson [22:44] {DeepO} hello von [22:44] {DeepO} I invited redstar1 [22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} boemboem? what's that?? [22:44] {DeepO} but haven't heared from him. Should we wait? [22:45] [10:45pm] {Aeson} hello vondrack [22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} nope - he is most probably not really online [22:45] {DeepO} euh... boemboem is part of a governmental awareness campaign [22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} hello, Aeson! [22:45] {DeepO} in which meaning it is meant that you should first talk, and only after have sex [22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} redstar1 hangs out in the Lego chatroom all the time (is permanently connected through ADSL) [22:45] {DeepO} ah, ok [22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} LoL [22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} will remember that! [22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} though I am not really into the talking part... [22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} nm [22:46] {DeepO} completely it would be "eerst blabla, dan boemboem" [22:46] {DeepO} one sec [22:47] {DeepO} sorry about that... [22:47] {DeepO} Aeson, if you hear from nye, could you invite him too? [22:47] {DeepO} ah, and I'll op you both [22:47] [10:47pm] DeepO sets mode: +o Aeson [22:47] [10:47pm] DeepO sets mode: +o vondrack [22:47] [10:47pm] {@vondrack} thanks, finally feeling equal [22:48] {DeepO} should we get Trip in here as well? [22:48] [10:48pm] {@vondrack} I do not think it is necessary [22:48] {DeepO} k [22:48] [10:48pm] {@vondrack} he can read logs in our forum [22:48] {DeepO} right [22:49] {DeepO} anyone else we want to wait for? [22:49] [10:49pm] {@vondrack} not from our side, noone else seems to be online & available for chat [22:49] {DeepO} ok, let's start then [22:49] [10:49pm] {@vondrack} k [22:49] {DeepO} first of all, I've got a little agenda [22:49] {DeepO} 1. Vox [22:49] {DeepO} 2. WM [22:49] {DeepO} 3. possible lux trade [22:49] {DeepO} anything else? [22:50] [10:50pm] {@vondrack} nothing I can think of [22:50] {DeepO} so 1. [22:50] {DeepO} we have sent, about 15 minutes ago, our ratified proposal [22:50] {DeepO} so it seems you will be enjoying new neighbours [22:50] [10:50pm] {@vondrack} yep, read about it in the public forum [22:50] [10:50pm] {@vondrack} [22:50] {DeepO} I hope you will like that [22:51] {DeepO} public forum? damn, I'm not up to date [22:51] [10:51pm] {@vondrack} yes, it is the solution we have been preferring for some time [22:51] {DeepO} well, anyway, I was thinking on what you said in the previous chat [22:51] [10:51pm] {@vondrack} yes? [22:51] {DeepO} that you would agree to give us Theo [22:51] {DeepO} with a no-wonder clause [22:51] {DeepO} do you still feel like that? [22:52] [10:52pm] {@vondrack} yes, of course [22:52] {DeepO} (we've been assuming it would go through, however no offocial communication has been sent) [22:52] {DeepO} care to put this in a PM after the chat? [22:52] [10:52pm] {@vondrack} no problem, will send it [22:52] {DeepO} it would make my life as ambassador a lot easier [22:52] {DeepO} Thanks a lot! [22:52] {DeepO} so... coiuld I ask you what your intentions are with them? [22:53] {DeepO} I mean, do you envision them as game-long partners? [22:53] [10:53pm] {@vondrack} with the peace treaty signed, the whole Theo "deal" will be very easy to formulate [22:53] [10:53pm] {@vondrack} re: Vox [22:53] [10:53pm] {@vondrack} yes, in a way [22:53] [10:53pm] {@vondrack} let me tell you something about their "new home" [22:53] {DeepO} k [22:53] [10:53pm] {@vondrack} Legos Minor - that is where they will end up [22:53] [10:53pm] {@vondrack} is a mountainous peninsula [22:54] [10:54pm] {@vondrack} North of our "mainland" (Legos Major) [22:54] [10:54pm] {@vondrack} connected with a single-tile isthmus [22:54] {DeepO} I know... w9ithout water [22:54] {DeepO} better protect it [22:54] [10:54pm] {@vondrack} yes - I remember now, I told you already [22:54] {DeepO} np [22:54] {DeepO} I just reread the log ... [22:55] {DeepO} the thing is, we wonder in which sense they will be useful for you [22:55] [10:55pm] {@vondrack} so - with the terrain there, they will not really be able to become a military power to be considered [22:55] [10:55pm] {@vondrack} ever [22:55] [10:55pm] {@vondrack} well [22:55] {DeepO} we kind of suspect you're afraid to be left out on Bob [22:55] {DeepO} in which case, a partner could be very good [22:56] [10:56pm] {@vondrack} not sure how much I am allowed to disclose, but let me put it this way: [22:56] [10:56pm] {@vondrack} we had several reasons to prefer that "peace" and to not mind Voxes "hopping" to Legos Minor [22:56] [10:56pm] {@vondrack} first: the problem with Great Leaders [22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} second: the fact that you and them were wasting resources [22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} actually making Bobians stronger [22:57] {DeepO} we certainly were [22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} Bobians (GoW & ND) are now getting close to their "peak times" [22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} so, we were not that excited about the whole thing [22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} honestly [22:57] {DeepO} I can imagine [22:58] {DeepO} but still, it seems quite a move [22:58] {DeepO} even for peacelovers [22:58] [10:58pm] {@vondrack} we did not really mind you having this small "problem" with Voxes [22:58] [10:58pm] {@vondrack} but it got too far [22:58] {DeepO} bah, npp [22:58] {DeepO} *np [22:58] {DeepO} we lost considerably in this war [22:58] {DeepO} but as there was no way to avoid it [22:58] [10:58pm] {@vondrack} then - and I hope I am not going too far disclosing this [22:59] {DeepO} and Vox did not realize how close to extinction it was (and thus did not settle for peace when we first proposed them [22:59] {DeepO} we had little option left [22:59] {DeepO} please tell... [22:59] [10:59pm] {@vondrack} we sort of hope that Voxes will become our "guarantee" or "ally" against possible tech embargoes from Bobians [22:59] [10:59pm] {@vondrack} having someone always trading with you [22:59] {DeepO} it could backfire though [23:00] {DeepO} which is what we find strange [23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} makes it more difficult for other to block your reserach by not trading key techs [23:00] {DeepO} I mean, we certainly can see Bob embargoing us [23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} sure it can backfire [23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} hell, what can't? [23:00] {DeepO} true [23:00] {DeepO} but the thing is, you have kind of a guarantee [23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} hopefully [23:00] {DeepO} however, Bob will not think of this lightly [23:01] {DeepO} and, I'm sure it is all part of the diplo game [23:01] {DeepO} but there has been a lot more talk lately about Lego being the ones to watch [23:01] [11:01pm] {@vondrack} we have sent our own treaty draft to Voxes today, outlining the future coexistence of our two teams [23:01] {DeepO} ah, ok [23:01] {DeepO} please discuss how much you can disclose of that to us [23:02] {DeepO} we hold no ill feelings towards Vox [23:02] [11:02pm] {@vondrack} there is not much into it (the draft), mostly just the research cooperation [23:02] {DeepO} and would certainly prefer to trade with them in the future [23:02] {DeepO} and, if I may say so, we trust you more then them [23:02] {DeepO} for the moment at least [23:02] [11:02pm] {@vondrack} the rest is just technical aspects, like gifting them a city on Legos Minor now etc. [23:02] {DeepO} ok [23:03] {DeepO} as long as you don't start embargoing us, I'm sure we all can get along fine [23:03] [11:03pm] {@vondrack} no intentions to embargo you [23:03] {DeepO} maybe it's time to get onto point 2. [23:03] {DeepO} ah, and thanks on the intentions [23:03] [11:03pm] {@vondrack} and frankly - we will push Voxes to be "nice guys", too [23:04] {DeepO} I don't think it will come to that [23:04] {DeepO} please do [23:04] [11:04pm] {@vondrack} since otherwise, they will become more of a liability than an asset to us [23:04] {DeepO} well, for the moment, we want Vox to grow again [23:04] {DeepO} very true [23:04] [11:04pm] {@vondrack} us, too [23:04] [11:04pm] {@vondrack} so we are going to help them out in the beginning [23:04] [11:04pm] {@vondrack} starting with that city now [23:04] {DeepO} which is why it would probably be the best idea if we resettle them (with planning) [23:05] {DeepO} how many cities do you see them get, in the next 20 turns? [23:05] {DeepO} I mean, we know they technically could grow to 6 or 7 [23:05] {DeepO} buut don't know if any arrangements were made [23:05] [11:05pm] {@vondrack} so far, we have agreed on gifting them their new capital [23:05] [11:05pm] {@vondrack} and I believe [23:06] [11:06pm] {@vondrack} they are sending some settlers in galleys [23:06] {DeepO} nah, not if we can help it [23:06] [11:06pm] {@vondrack} that should arrive in ~16 turns or so [23:06] {DeepO} they don't need any galleys at all [23:06] {DeepO} in case you cooperate [23:06] [11:06pm] {@vondrack} ? [23:06] {DeepO} and a lot will depend on the real situation [23:07] {DeepO} well, we can starve / disband all their cities to size 1 [23:07] {DeepO} and if, at that moment, their new captial is size 2 [23:07] {DeepO} it should be no problem for them to move all their forces into their last city [23:07] {DeepO} and gift it to us [23:07] {DeepO} in which case all units get teleported to their only remaining city [23:07] [11:07pm] {@vondrack} ah, that's smart [23:08] {DeepO} (correction: they should disband their last city) [23:08] [11:08pm] {@vondrack} should be doable, I believe [23:08] {DeepO} bah, we've been thining on this for a while now [23:08] {DeepO} it certainly would be doable [23:08] {DeepO} we've got a turn by turn plan ready [23:08] {DeepO} (courtesy of Aeson, our master planner) [23:09] [11:09pm] {@vondrack} well, their new capital will be founded [23:09] [11:09pm] {@Aeson} ack... not a solid turn by turn plan, as we don't know the exact situation in the cities [23:09] {DeepO} so that's not the problem, but it would mean a considerable force next to your border very soon [23:09] {DeepO} and the new capital needs to grow to size 2 at least [23:09] [11:09pm] {@vondrack} that's not a problem [23:09] [11:09pm] {@vondrack} just a sec [23:09] {DeepO} k [23:10] [11:10pm] {@vondrack} if this turn is Turn T [23:10] [11:10pm] {@vondrack} then on Turn T+5 or T+6 (depends on the location they choose) [23:10] [11:10pm] {@vondrack} the capital will be founded [23:10] [11:10pm] {@vondrack} now the good news [23:11] [11:11pm] {@vondrack} we are bringing in a worker along [23:11] {DeepO} we were hoping for this... that you already had a settler kind of in place. Plus the worker is superb! [23:11] [11:11pm] {@vondrack} and will be joining him to the city immediately [23:11] {DeepO} great [23:11] [11:11pm] {@vondrack} it was originally meant to allow a spear poprush [23:11] [11:11pm] {@vondrack} but I can see [23:11] [11:11pm] {@vondrack} we have a different way now [23:12] {DeepO} we should definately coordinate our plans... Aeson is going to have fun the following days [23:12] [11:12pm] {@vondrack} the spear poprush was necessary (LOTS of barbs there - almost impossible to protect a garrisonless city from outside) [23:12] {DeepO} aha... so the turn the city gets gifted, it should become the capital [23:12] {DeepO} that's going to be tricky to perform [23:13] [11:13pm] {@vondrack} question: how fast do you think the Voxians can be ready for the Big Hop? [23:13] {DeepO} Aeson? [23:13] [11:13pm] {@vondrack} we can delay its foundation [23:13] [11:13pm] {@Aeson} If I might mention something, Vox seems far too infatuated with takign their troops with them. Coming from us it sounds bad, but it really would be in their best interests long term (20 turns from now and till the end of the game) for them to mostly diband their units to build more Settlers [23:13] {DeepO} true [23:13] [11:13pm] {@vondrack} agreed [23:14] [11:14pm] {@Aeson} If Lego could convince Vox that a smaller army will cost less to support and allow faster growth, it would help things greatly [23:14] [11:14pm] {@Aeson} Otherwise Vox is going to be running a 20gpt deficit for a while [23:14] {DeepO} yeah... [23:14] [11:14pm] {@Aeson} Vox's main stack is 5 turns from Dissidentville [23:14] {DeepO} and we're not going to give them cash [23:14] [11:14pm] {@Aeson} they are going to use Dissidentvile to jump them back to the core [23:14] [11:14pm] {@vondrack} right [23:14] [11:14pm] redstar1 (d@host81-132-197-183.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined. «4 people» [23:14] {DeepO} well, they can do it partly by boat [23:14] [11:14pm] {@vondrack} interesting concept, this jumping... [23:14] {DeepO} hi redstar1! [23:14] [11:14pm] {@Aeson} The first round of pop liquidation should happen abou the same time [23:15] [11:15pm] {@Aeson} then 5 more turns or so to get the rest liquidated [23:15] [11:15pm] {redstar1} hi guys [23:15] {DeepO} I agree [23:15] {DeepO} but most definately they need some guidance here [23:15] [11:15pm] {@Aeson} we need 3 turns to guarantee the teleportation to work [23:15] {DeepO} and it could mean that not all of their pop gets transferred [23:15] [11:15pm] {@Aeson} so it would happen in 13 turns at the earliest I think [23:16] {DeepO} okay, let's keep that as an estimate for now [23:16] {DeepO} Von, are you protecting that settler well enough? [23:16] {DeepO} I mean, could you delay up until then without risk? [23:16] [11:16pm] {@Aeson} hello redstar1 [23:16] [11:16pm] {@vondrack} sword on mountains escort [23:16] [11:16pm] DeepO sets mode: +o redstar1 [23:16] [11:16pm] {@vondrack} we could delay, but I do not think it would be necessary [23:17] {DeepO} okay... those should hold