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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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quote:
[22:07] [10:07pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has joined. «3 people»
[22:07] [10:07pm] {vondrack} hello!
[22:07] {DeepO} hi Vondrack!
[22:07] [10:07pm] {vondrack} early bird, eh?
[22:07] {DeepO} 
[22:08] [10:08pm] {vondrack} it's only 8pm GMT... 
[22:08] {DeepO} it's 22h here, I thought that meant 21h GMT?
[22:08] {DeepO} they do have summer day time, no?
[22:08] [10:08pm] {vondrack} daylight savings time...
[22:08] [10:08pm] {vondrack} shifts the time by an hour
[22:08] [10:08pm] {vondrack} same here
[22:08] [10:08pm] nye (notyoueith@h24-86-76-127.ed.shawcable.net) has joined. «4 people»
[22:08] {DeepO} hi nye
[22:08] [10:08pm] {nye} hello
[22:08] [10:08pm] {vondrack} heya, nye, mate!
[22:08] [10:08pm] {Aeson} Hello vondrack
[22:08] [10:08pm] {vondrack} hello, Aeson!
[22:09] {DeepO} so, even if I was a bit too early, we maybe can start nonetheless
[22:09] {DeepO} Vondrack, more legos joining?
[22:09] [10:09pm] {vondrack} yes, I think so
[22:09] [10:09pm] {vondrack} no, probably not
[22:09] {DeepO} okay...
[22:09] {DeepO} I'm not entirely sure about your last message
[22:09] {DeepO} was it meant as a final warning?
[22:10] {DeepO} or rather a breaking of diplomatic ties?
[22:10] {DeepO} because we feel you have the wrong impression of what's happening.
[22:10] [10:10pm] {vondrack} if it was breaking diplomatic ties, I would not be here, I think
[22:10] [10:10pm] {vondrack} rather an urgent warning
[22:10] {DeepO} well, we hoped so much
[22:10] {DeepO} okay, did my reply satisfy your worries?
[22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} humm... not much, to be honest...
[22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} but it's not the message
[22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} it's how the whole war is going
[22:11] {DeepO} please explain
[22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} RPers seem to be crumbling
[22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} and we can see you trying to fill their space
[22:11] {DeepO} we're doing all we can to keep RP alive
[22:12] {DeepO} and we have no interest in their space
[22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} at least that is what we would try to do if we were yourself
[22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} ummm... GS has no interest in territory on Bob?
[22:12] {DeepO} apart from one point: we have always valued the Lego relation, and want to continue that
[22:12] {DeepO} your concerns are taken into account
[22:13] {DeepO} well, no that's not right. But as explained, we want only the strategic stuff
[22:13] {DeepO} anyway, perhaps nye can explain it better
[22:13] {DeepO} nye?
[22:13] [10:13pm] {nye} vondrack, we need to occupy part of the frontage for rp. we need the cities in the area that we will defend.
[22:14] [10:14pm] {vondrack} that has always been clear
[22:14] [10:14pm] {nye} ok. so we are doing that
[22:14] [10:14pm] {vondrack} though the "part" is getting bigger every turn...
[22:14] [10:14pm] {vondrack} almost every turn
[22:14] [10:14pm] {nye} yes, the riders approach
[22:15] [10:15pm] {vondrack} see, guys, it is like this: as long as we feel that GS is a rival we can cope with peacefully, we will stick to peaceful ways
[22:16] [10:16pm] {nye} understood
[22:16] [10:16pm] {vondrack} once we believe you (or anyone else!) are getting too powerful, we will have to change our approach
[22:16] [10:16pm] {vondrack} this applies to EVERY other team in this game
[22:16] [10:16pm] {vondrack} we may be silly builders, but we still know the rules...
[22:16] [10:16pm] {vondrack} one team to bind them all...
[22:17] [10:17pm] {nye} heh
[22:17] [10:17pm] {nye} yes, i suppose we all want to win
[22:17] [10:17pm] {Aeson} knew we shouldn't let nye put our secret plans on his sig!
[22:17] [10:17pm] {vondrack} the message we (it was not my personal effort) sent you was meant to indicate we are getting increasingly worried about how things proceed on Bob
[22:18] [10:18pm] {vondrack} *we were
[22:18] [10:18pm] {nye} we understand
[22:18] [10:18pm] {vondrack} bad grammar, sorry
[22:18] [10:18pm] {nye} however, we are telling you that many of the cities you see are short term. we need them to defend the area
[22:19] [10:19pm] {vondrack} understood - we are not hurrying troops to Bob either yet
[22:20] [10:20pm] {vondrack} just a side-note... did you guys anticipated how fast RPers would be falling?
[22:20] [10:20pm] {nye} there has been a lot of misinformation posted. we can see how it would be confusing
[22:20] [10:20pm] {vondrack} looking at the map, it looks like they have already lost the war
[22:20] [10:20pm] {nye} this is not a good time for them
[22:20] [10:20pm] {vondrack} yeah
[22:20] [10:20pm] {vondrack} they asked for help
[22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} we have been extensively discussing helping them somehow
[22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} in a non-military way
[22:21] [10:21pm] {nye} it would be good if you could lend assistance
[22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} but all we seem to have (almost) available at this moment
[22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} would be Astronomy
[22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} and Education, I think - they do not have it yet
[22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} either
[22:22] [10:22pm] {nye} some gold would help them
[22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} our coffers are almost empty
[22:22] [10:22pm] {nye} but that is up to you and your team
[22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} and frankly, we do not feel like giving them gold
[22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} too risky business
[22:22] [10:22pm] {nye} how risky?
[22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} how long do you expect them to last?
[22:23] [10:23pm] {Aeson} because they are just losing cities
[22:23] [10:23pm] {vondrack} "just"?
[22:23] [10:23pm] {Aeson} meant that's why it's risky
[22:23] [10:23pm] {nye} with adequate help, they are not lost
[22:23] [10:23pm] {vondrack} I can see only 2 decent Spanish cities left
[22:23] [10:23pm] {Aeson} to give them gold... losing cities loses gold
[22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} true... though I can imagine they would immediately use the gold for rushes
[22:24] [10:24pm] {nye} i would think they would
[22:24] [10:24pm] {Aeson} so then why does Lego consider it risky?
[22:25] [10:25pm] {vondrack} since we are less then sure they will be around long enough to provide something in return
[22:25] [10:25pm] {nye} we were forced to look at it another way
[22:25] {DeepO} true
[22:25] [10:25pm] {nye} not what rp could give us in return
[22:25] [10:25pm] {nye} but, did we want to see nd triple in size
[22:26] [10:26pm] {nye} all near their palace
[22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} we do not believe ND would be allowed to take all their land
[22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} they would either have to give up something to GoW
[22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} or GoW would backstab
[22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} as usually, I might add...
[22:26] [10:26pm] {nye} yes, but nd could double or more in size and gow would still get bits
[22:27] {DeepO} we may have deterioted that equation, btw
[22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} ?
[22:27] {DeepO} because we only hampered GoW for the moment
[22:27] {DeepO} as ND was out of reach
[22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} yeah
[22:27] {DeepO} the treaty could very well have been that for each city GoW takes
[22:27] {DeepO} they would receive on up North
[22:27] {DeepO} now, GoW is not taking cities
[22:28] {DeepO} making ND even more powerful
[22:28] [10:28pm] {nye} i think you are on the right track, deepo
[22:28] {DeepO} I suspected as much for a while
[22:28] {DeepO} but there were little other options left
[22:28] {DeepO} and... if such a treaty is in place
[22:29] {DeepO} GoW would be very concerned about a backstab too
[22:29] [10:29pm] {nye} not if we wanted to prevent the rise of two civs each the size of lego in land
[22:29] {DeepO} well yes, but in interfering, we destabilized the GoW-ND balance
[22:29] {DeepO} we need to go through with this, now
[22:30] {DeepO} but we can't, if we also have Lego to worry about...
[22:30] [10:30pm] {nye} do you see why we got involved, vondrack?
[22:30] [10:30pm] {vondrack} I am not sure you are right, DeepO... their alliance seems to be pretty solid
[22:30] {DeepO} don't bet on it
[22:30] [10:30pm] {vondrack} yes, we do see that, of course
[22:30] {DeepO} the point is: there is no alliance
[22:31] {DeepO} GoW is under contract
[22:31] {DeepO} once the contract is gone: no more alliance
[22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} you sure?
[22:31] [10:31pm] {nye} no, we are not
[22:31] {DeepO} well, not definately
[22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} the posts in the public forum would indicate otherwise
[22:31] {DeepO} but all the public posts seem to go in that direction
[22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} though I might have been misreading them
[22:32] [10:32pm] {nye} btw, vondrack. does lego have any questions about all that business in the forums?
[22:32] [10:32pm] {vondrack} 
[22:32] [10:32pm] {nye} i will answer, if i can
[22:32] [10:32pm] {vondrack}
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} I do not care the tiniest bit
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} even if I am unable to resist and keep reading all the stuff
[22:33] [10:33pm] {nye} i thought some of your team might have some questions
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} if they had, they'd ask, I think
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} we have no policy re: posting in the public forum
[22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} everybody is free to get involved
[22:34] {DeepO} we don't have much policy either, it seems
[22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} the thing is that Lego is shrinking
[22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} we are losing active members
[22:34] [10:34pm] {nye} how can anyone believe half the stuff posted on the forum?
[22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} half???
[22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} hehe
[22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} sometimes I can barely believe the posters' names...
[22:35] [10:35pm] {nye} disinformation has been very well demonstrated in this game, in that forum
[22:35] {DeepO} most of it coming from GoW...
[22:36] [10:36pm] {nye} i wouldn't say that, DeepO
[22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} it was Vox before, it was RPers all the time...
[22:36] {DeepO} well... most, not everything
[22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} propaganda is part of this game
[22:36] {DeepO} ah, true
[22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} like it or not
[22:36] {DeepO} forgot about the Vox war 
[22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack}
[22:37] [10:37pm] {nye} i find it interesting that opinions are made based on the propaganda
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} though - I still think the actual effect of the propaganda is very limited
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} and most ingame decisions are based on facts
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} not propaganda
[22:37] {DeepO} like RP, even if they're not exactly our buddies, needing our help?
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} but - yes, it is very interesting to watch the prop wars and their outcomes
[22:38] [10:38pm] {nye} that is why i was wondering if lego felt they needed any facts about all that business
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} well
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} the facts...
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} fact: GS and RP are fighting GoW and ND
[22:39] {DeepO} defending against would be our chosen words
[22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} hehe - but it was me choosing them...
[22:39] [10:39pm] {nye} that would be gloss, though
[22:39] [10:39pm] {nye} please go on, vondrack
[22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} fact: if any of these teams start getting the upper hand, we have to seriously consider
[22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} how much peacenick we really are
[22:40] [10:40pm] {nye} true
[22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} since once the war is over
[22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} our options will be very limited
[22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} overseas invasions are extremely costly
[22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} if there is no instant beachhead
[22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} like in your case
[22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} so... the "facts" discussed in the public forum
[22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} are sort of... irrelevant for us
[22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} it's not that important who started it
[22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} we still have to watch very carefully
[22:42] [10:42pm] {nye} yes
[22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} and if the balance shifts too much in any direction
[22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} we may be forced to get involved
[22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} just like you felt you had to intervene on behalf of RP
[22:43] [10:43pm] {nye} so, you are likely to march against those who are winning?
[22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} sounds funny...
[22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} but it is probably true
[22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} it's difficult to say
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} without knowing the exact context
[22:44] [10:44pm] {nye} well, as you can see... at this rate there will soon be only 4 armies in the world
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} ?
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} are RPers losing even troops?
[22:44] [10:44pm] {nye} rp is fighting, while they have lost production potential
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} true
[22:45] [10:45pm] {nye} so, eventually, their army will not be very big
[22:45] [10:45pm] {nye} so, then there will be 4
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} yeah, that sounds just about right
[22:46] [10:46pm] {nye} i wonder...
[22:47] [10:47pm] {nye} there is so much invested in the game, by so many people
[22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} that's probably why the flames use to be so intense
[22:47] [10:47pm] {nye} would it be possible for a couple of civs to agree on conduct of the later game?
[22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} not sure what you mean
[22:48] [10:48pm] {nye} how will victory be achieved?
[22:48] [10:48pm] {nye} conquest?
[22:48] [10:48pm] {nye} domination?
[22:48] [10:48pm] {nye} un?
[22:48] [10:48pm] {nye} space ship?
[22:49] [10:49pm] {nye} the first two are almost impossible
[22:49] [10:49pm] {nye} in this sort of game
[22:49] [10:49pm] {vondrack} whoever pulling them would be a true master
[22:49] [10:49pm] {nye} yes, they would be
[22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} frankly, I have no idea myself... but I know I sometimes wish this game was over
[22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} I really wish so...
[22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} anyway
[22:50] [10:50pm] {nye} i know what you mean
[22:50] {DeepO} hmmm...same here
[22:50] [10:50pm] {Aeson} we could speed it up
[22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} LoL
[22:51] {DeepO} Vondrack, one of the problems we face
[22:52] {DeepO} is that on one hand we need the gold for RP
[22:52] {DeepO} on the other we want to keep researching
[22:52] {DeepO} we still value a tech-partner
[22:52] {DeepO} one sec
[22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} k
[22:52] {DeepO} Shiber is knocking
[22:53] {DeepO} okay, that should do it
[22:53] {DeepO} so... seeing as domination or conquest are near impossible
[22:53] {DeepO} we need research.
[22:53] {DeepO} your last message got us worried quite a bit,
[22:54] {DeepO} as it had an undertone of: we don't want no deals no more
[22:54] {DeepO} in that case, banking wouldn't do us much good
[22:54] [10:54pm] Shiber (w00t@bzq-245-89.red.bezeqint.net) has joined. «5 people»
[22:54] [10:54pm] {Shiber} Hi.
[22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} hi
[22:54] {DeepO} but we would be obligied to research it
[22:54] {DeepO} hi Shiber
[22:54] [10:54pm] {Shiber} DeepO, your spelling is horrible.
[22:54] {DeepO} is it?
[22:55] [10:55pm] {Shiber} EetMeerAppels?
[22:55] {DeepO} the thing is: we want to research
[22:55] {DeepO} translation: EatMoreApples
[22:55] {DeepO} anyway
[22:55] {DeepO} if we want to research
[22:55] {DeepO} we can't go ful in this wart
[22:55] {DeepO} war
[22:56] {DeepO} and, if we don't have the guarantee we can trade later, it won't be good for us to speed along
[22:56] {DeepO} which makes us much more depending on what you decide
[22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} do you need to slow down your banking research?
[22:56] {DeepO} and also explains in part why we value you position so much
[22:56] {DeepO} no, not really needed
[22:56] {DeepO} I mean delaying
[22:57] {DeepO} as it would only make our position after the war worse
[22:57] {DeepO} RP just will have to manage with what we can invest
[22:58] [10:58pm] {nye} well, if we both slowed down, we could both assist rp more
[22:58] {DeepO} that might be needed...
[22:58] [10:58pm] {Shiber} As it looks now, RP could become extinct real soon.
[22:59] [10:59pm] {vondrack} well, we DID discuss the way of helping RP - but we pretty much ruled gold out, to be honest
[23:00] [11:00pm] {vondrack} you have correctly pointed out
[23:00] [11:00pm] {vondrack} that they have pretty much lost their production potential
[23:00] {DeepO} temporary!
[23:00] [11:00pm] {vondrack} and building units for gold will be VERY costly
[23:00] [11:00pm] {nye} they don;t lose any cash to cities falling, if they use it to rush
[23:00] [11:00pm] {vondrack} yeah, sure - but it would be our cash...
[23:01] {DeepO} ours as well, Vondrack
[23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} true
[23:01] [11:01pm] Shiber (w00t@bzq-245-89.red.bezeqint.net) invites you to join #fruitcakeman
[23:02] {DeepO} RP needs the cash, and as much as we want them to stay alive, we won't be the only supporters, I fear...
[23:02] [11:02pm] {nye} well, if they do noit get enough assitance, then they could go down. that would leave 2 Bob civs.
[23:02] [11:02pm] {nye} *will go down
[23:03] {DeepO} X-posting
[23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} guys, I can see what you are trying to suggest - but I am not authorized to promise anything regarding this
[23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} all I can do is to bring it to my team
[23:03] [11:03pm] {nye} of course
[23:04] [11:04pm] {vondrack} otherwise, I would be acting against what we have decided so far (inside the team)
[23:04] [11:04pm] {nye} it would be enough for lego to consider it
[23:05] [11:05pm] {nye} that is a good beginning
[23:05] {DeepO} I very good one...
[23:05] [11:05pm] {vondrack} the log will be posted, as usually - and there is always a discussion about it
[23:05] {DeepO} but please, don't wait too long
[23:05] {DeepO} ND is seriously pressuring RP 
[23:07] {DeepO} anything else?
[23:07] {DeepO} if not, allow me too lighten up the mood
[23:07] [11:07pm] {vondrack} I do not think so...
[23:07] [11:07pm] {vondrack} go ahead
[23:08] {DeepO} with what I think is something Vondrack can understand (I don't)
[23:08] {DeepO} http://www.freshsensation.com/samorost.swf
[23:08] {DeepO} I think Aeson is still playing it
[23:08] {DeepO} the point is to keep your planet from being distructed
[23:08] {DeepO} click around, you'll see it coming together
[23:08] {DeepO} and it's Chech, I think
[23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} downloading...
[23:09] [11:09pm] {Aeson} nope... the spider fly one caused me too much frustration...
[23:09] {DeepO} Tsjech?
[23:09] {DeepO} Hehe
[23:09] {DeepO} there was another solution
[23:09] {DeepO} that was simply some distraction
[23:09] [11:09pm] {Aeson} I don't know what I was missing, but I couldn't find anything to click that did anything
[23:10] {DeepO} well, it's art after all
[23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} LoL
[23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} looks lovely
[23:10] {DeepO} but it can be finished!
[23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} and it must be something with Czechs...
[23:11] [11:11pm] {vondrack} hehe... seems I have something to do before I go to bed )
[23:11] {DeepO} enjoy...
[23:11] [11:11pm] {vondrack}
[23:11] [11:11pm] {vondrack} thanks
[23:11] {DeepO} I'm leaving, so sweat dreams!
[23:11] [11:11pm] {vondrack} good night, everybody
[23:11] {DeepO} and thanks for the chat
[23:12] [11:12pm] {vondrack} my pleasure
[23:12] [11:12pm] {vondrack} take care, guys!
[23:12] [11:12pm] {Aeson} bye vondrack!
[23:12] [11:12pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has parted. «4 people»
[23:12] {DeepO} okay, I'll post the log
[23:12] {DeepO} bye
Session Close: Mon Aug 04 23:12:36 2003
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:24
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Sent:
quote:
To Vondrack & the People of Legoland:
As the people of Legoland are no doubt aware, the people of the Gathering Storm are presently engaged in the War-to-not-quite-end-all-wars. It is a difficult time for our nation. Aside from the normal stresses of combat, there is the issue of cash flow.
We have previously agreed to research banking in exchange for your research of Astronomy. At the outset, I'd like to be clear that, if Legoland insists upon it, we will certainly abide by the terms of our original deal. However, if your people are willing to restructure the deal in mutually agreeable fashion that would allow the Gathering Storm more free cash for the prosecution of the war, we would be most appreciative. I and my teamates are open to creative solutions, so please don't hesitate to throw some into the mix.
Here is the one thought we've come up with thus far: as I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), Legoland is also interested in the technology of Invention. Invention is less expensive than Banking. What it the Gathering Storm researched Invention instead, and either 1) provided cash reimbursement to Legoland for the difference in technology cost at a later date; or 2) received cash from Legoland for Invention, and not Astronomy. Clearly, I cannot anticipate your exact wants/needs, so my ideas may not be of much use to you. This is why I encourage you to propose other solutions that perhaps fit Legoland's plans better.
The long and the short of it is that we need cash right now, and researching banking (though it could be done) would be quite a strain, and hamper our war efforts. I am by no means naive enough to believe you have any particular interest in assisting our war efforts. However, I do believe it is in your interests to keep us fighting. I can't imagine Legoland wants a decisive victory for ND + GoW, anymore than it wants a decisive victory for GS + RP. So obviously it is up to you to guage whether or not restructuring our tech deal is in your best interests. I leave it to you. As I said, if Legoland insists, we will abide by the original deal.
Respectfully,
-Arrian
Co-general of the armies of the Gathering Storm
Assistant Ambassador to the people of Legoland
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*crosses fingers*
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:24
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Vondrack's response, with my response thereto:
quote:
Vondrack,
Thanks for your quick response. Too bad (for us) about Invention. Maybe there is another solution that works for both of us. I'll keep thinking about it. If not, so be it. We'll have to deal.
-Arrian
quote:
Arrian,
Just briefly acknowledging the receipt of your message. While I personally understand your reasons and needs, I am unable to give you an answer immediately. Changing a tech trade like this will require some discussion and perhaps a re-poll in our team.
One thing I can tell you immediately, though, is that we have already pre-arranged a trade for Invention. We shall get it not immediately after finishing our Astronomy research, but in a reasonable timeframe (soon enough, considering our needs, I'd say) and at a reasonable price, so that's not what we would ask for instead of Banking.
I will present your message to my team and get back to you as soon as I have an official response (I will do my best to have it within 48 hours - certainly before your next turn comes up).
Best regards,
vondrack
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:24
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Received from Vondrack (I wasn't online at all this weekend, and 'poly has been down today, so I just got this, sorry):
quote:
Dear Arrian,
We have discussed your last message in our Senate. Here is what has become apparent from the discussion and what is now our official stance:
1) We understand your needs and wish to accomodate you. As indicated several times in the public forum, we are well aware of that if a deal ceases to work for both parties, it's time to change it - unless one is happy to make the other party unhappy.
2) ATM, we are basically interested in gold and techs only - neither of which seems to work well for you, as long as a deal for Astronomy is concerned - since you need gold for your war efforts and intend to research Invention (instead of Banking), which we have already prearranged a deal for with another team.
3) Considering the previous two points, we believe that the best solution now would be to agree to renegotiate the tech trade agreement currently in effect, scrapping the Astronomy for Banking tech swap part. We would not hold this against Gathering Storm - it would be a mutually approved change to an existing trade agreement.
4) The trade agreement in effect included a certain, though not expressly specified amount of gold meant to balance the beaker cost difference between Astronomy and Banking. Would you ask for a reimbursement? If you would - what would be the amount and payment schedule?
5) As long as the previous point does not become an issue, we are ready to officially amend the current deal, so that it would not include the Astronomy for Banking swap.
I hope this at least to a certain extent meets your needs. We would hope to trade Astronomy with you once there are other/more options available.
Respectfully,
vondrack
FAM of Legoland
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I tried responding with a quick "thanks, I got it" but Vondrack's Messagebox is full.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:24
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Sent to Vondrack:
quote:
Dear Vondrack, and the people of Legoland:
First, allow me to express the thanks of our people for Legoland's understanding and flexibility in this matter. It is much appreciated.
We've discussed it, and decided that the best course of action is to take you up on your offer to void the Banking-Astronomy deal. We've also discussed the compensation for the difference in tech costs (40gold, was it, from us to you? Please correct me if I'm mistaken!) and decided to waive it, in consideration for your team's willingness to help us out by voiding the deal.
You have mentioned that you will be receiving Invention soon, via a deal with another team. I have four questions regarding that transaction:
1) Can you tell me exactly when you will have Inv?
2) Can you tell me where you're getting it from?
3) Can you sell it to us, or is there a NDA. If so, for how long?
4) If you can sell Invention to us (either now, or when a NDA runs out), how much would you want for it?
Thanks again, and I hope to hear from you soon ('poly willing).
-Arrian
Co-General of the Armies of the Gathering Storm
Assistant Ambassador to the people of Legoland |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:24
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Received from Vondrack:
quote:
Dear Arrian,
Consider this note an official addendum to our existing trade agreement, nullifying the part about swapping our Astronomy for your Banking (and consequently, about you being granted the research of Economy). BTW - the gold balance was, IIRC, never precisely specified, as the Edu/Astro/Banking deal involved several assets difficult to value separately, but 40 gold would probably be quite close.
As for Invention... as you might have guessed, we are getting it from Glory of War - very soon, if their word is to be trusted. It comes with an NDA, the length of which has not been specified - pretty much like the agreement we had on Astronomy/Banking. Neither party expressly forbids a future resale arrangement, but the resale rights are not covered by the initial deal... which makes your last question, about the price, impossible to answer. Once we acquire Invention, we will not be allowed to resell it without seeking GoW's permission.
Best regards,
vondrack
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Damn.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:24
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Sent just now in response to vondrack:
I'm ending up playing the turns a fair amount, so hopefully this will help with recent GS tardiness.
Ummm, new subject: What would you say to a worldwide alliance against ND? Splitting up Bob? Re-building RP? Competing in a build-off?
Theseus / Richard
quote:
Hello, Theseus!
Got your PM and from now on, you should be among the GS members receiving the save from Lego (along with nye, Shiber, Sir Ralph, Arrian, aatw, and Cort Haus).
Sorry for not forwarding the recent save - it somehow did not occured to me...
Cheers,
Radek
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:24
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Damn... vondrack's response:
Ummm... on that new subject... to be honest, it's not really what Lego is planning for or thinking about.
I believe that Arnelos has already informed GS about our chat few days ago. I officially informed him Legoland was not going to help RP in the war, even if RP was to leave the game. I would rather not elaborate on our reasons - but the decision has been extensively discussed and is an almost unanimously accepted by the whole Lego team.
We may be wrong, of course, but our analyses indicate we do not really have to fear ND. We generally have no interest in expanding over to Bob, so getting involved in an aggressive war over there makes little sense for us.
We are watching the developments on Bob closely and if things go "wrong" from our PoV, we'll certainly revisit our plans and overall strategy. But for the moment, we are not ready, nor willing to engage in hostilities against ND.
Best Regards,
Radek aka vondrack
P.S.: Sorry for a bit formal tone - I thought you would like to post the PM in your forum, so I made it sound a bit "official". ... after all, it IS an official statement of the Legoland FAM, which I happen to be.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:24
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Part I
Session Start: Sun Nov 09 19:33:58 2003
Session Ident: #LOL
* Logging #LOL to 'logs\Lego dissidents.GRNet.log'
Theseus> Got it... cool.
Sharpe> back
Theseus> So, just wondering, sort of a scratch in the back of my brain, not to pry or anything, but, uh, what's up with this dissident stuff?
Sharpe> dissident?
Sharpe> you mean the "unofficialness" of this chat?
Theseus> Private chat w/out vondrack... so we are calling you dissidents in our forum.
Theseus> Yep.
Nimitz> We aren't dissidents
Sharpe> Well we really aren't dissidents
Theseus> No offense.
Nimitz> I'm Tied wirth Vondrack for the FAM
Sharpe> and several members have wondered about chatting with you guys, but nothing came out of it officially
Theseus> REALLY, no offense. In fact, blame me, I'm the one who started using that word, and will henceforh squash it.
Sharpe> besides don't YOU guys have a city named Dissidentville?
Sharpe>
Nimitz> we don't mined but we just don't want you think we are going against the team
Theseus>
Theseus> Got it.
Theseus> We are not too familiar with the internal workings of Lego.
Sharpe> So do we want to wait for any others?
Sharpe> doesn't bother me but I don't know how much time you both have for this
Theseus> I am empowered... your call.
Nimitz> lets just say as with any thing lego we can do onthing official
Sharpe> yeah, if there is majority support for it by vote if necessary
Nimitz> its always up to the team
Theseus> Although didn't I read somewhere that vondrack has sometimes made his own calls?
Theseus> BTW, Cort Haus might be joining us.
Theseus> BRB.
Sharpe> Vondrack was president and vice president for a long time
Sharpe> the way Lego works is that the president and VP have the power to do what they want if there is no team consensus on an issue
Theseus> Ah, so this has happened... and there was dissent after?
Sharpe> no just no consensus whether we should talk with GS or not
Theseus> Not prying, just trying to understand. How does this relate (if it does) to the confidentiality of this chat?
Theseus> If you'd like to move on from this subject, that's OK.
Nimitz> oh we are just talking about some stuff in the back ground
Nimitz> like the election
Sharpe> yeah, this is the tightest election yet so far in Lego
Sharpe> even the 2nd election is currently tied 
Nimitz> twice a tie so far
*** Cort_Haus has joined #LOL
Sharpe> Hi Cort_Haus!
Cort_Haus> right, am I here now?
Cort_Haus> 'Hi all
Theseus> Wow... if I tried to run an election in GS it would be a slam dunk. "Everyone who wants Theseus to do everything, raise your hand." /me raises hand. Election over.
Nimitz> hey
Theseus> Hi Cort.
Nimitz> it would of been for me 2 or 3 months ago
Cort_Haus> phew, made it - so have I missed much?
Sharpe> you aren't THAT short of members are you?
Sharpe> no just some small talk
Sharpe> admittedly we are down to about 9 active members
Theseus> Naw, just kidding around.
Cort_Haus> So, Interesting Times...
Nimitz> yes
Sharpe> yeah, concerning times too
Theseus> You mean like the Chinese curse?
Sharpe> curse?
Cort_Haus> Nothing like the prospect of a World War to focus the attention
Nimitz> yes
Theseus> "May you live in interesting times."
Nimitz> may you live in intresting times
Nimitz> lol
Sharpe> ah true I remember that famous quote now
Theseus> So... now we are talking.
Nimitz> yes I guess
Cort_Haus> we're on tenterhooks...
Theseus> I'm on the edge of my seat.
Sharpe> yeah, the war seems to have reached a touchy point
Theseus> Sidenote: It's amazing to me that team participation is down, just when things are as intense as they are.
Sharpe> To be honest Legoland is concerned about your invasion of GoW's territory
Cort_Haus> It's been a good war so far for Lego ... less so for the participants
Sharpe> home area taht is
Theseus> well, we weren't just going to slug it out in the south.
Sharpe> been rough on Lego too - though not in combat losses admittedly
Cort_Haus> well it's not surprising that we weant to take the fight to the enemy.
Theseus> Rough on Lego how?
Sharpe> Lots of arguments
Nimitz> yes true
Theseus> Ah.
Cort_Haus> ah (
Theseus> Thankfully, that has never really been the case in GS... we get along very well (but we were to an extent a pre-built team).
Nimitz> we get along farly well but things
Nimitz> that do not directly involve us can lead to arguement on what to do
Cort_Haus> We er, kind of noticed that Lego didn't want us hitting GoW. We got this ultimatum you see, so we launched our nukes at you. Sorry 'bout that. Should be there any moment!
Theseus> (I started with that quote CH!!)
Theseus> lol
Sharpe> K, to get to the point - Lego has a defensive alliance with GoW - regarding any invasion of their home territory - since neither you nor RP have attacked into their homeland until now - Legoland has remained uninvolved
Cort_Haus> ok, (ticks off joke on list)
Nimitz> lol
Sharpe> until now
Theseus> We are not in GoW's homeland.
Theseus> Although we are... close.
Sharpe> Err, what about that force of yours outside of Yellowknife?
Cort_Haus> yeah, we're just peering over the border
Sharpe> 12 knights 4 pikes ?
Theseus> Outside their territory.
Nimitz> that is not our it seems
Theseus> To be honest? We knew we needed to bring the situation on Bob to a head.
Nimitz> *how
Theseus> YK is still a level one city.
Sharpe> level one?
Nimitz> not expanded
Theseus> Cultural expansion.
Sharpe> oh yeah true
Sharpe> We are concerned about it because if you did attack GoW's cities there , the treaty with GoW would require us to help with their defense
Theseus> Here's a biggie: We do not want to attack GoW.
Theseus> But we had to get their, and your, attention.
Nimitz> so why the troops
Nimitz> ok
Nimitz> you have but in the wrong way most likely
Theseus> Before we go further, can we briefly discuss confidentiality?
Sharpe> sure
Theseus> I have not been in a diplo position before...
Nimitz> ok
Theseus> What is the commonly accepted set of mores in this regard?
Theseus> (Gee, talking like a diplo )
Sharpe> do you mean telling us something that you have discussed with another team or teams ?
Theseus> More, hmmm, what is the confidentiality of this chat?
Theseus> For the moment, it's confidential within Lego... what about later?
Sharpe> We can keep it just between Lego and GS if you wish it
Theseus> And what about in general? Is there an assumption that all such diplo chats are to be held in strictecst confidence?
Sharpe> depends on whether you ask it to be confidential or not
Theseus> Hmmm... what is your current realtionship with Vox and ND?
Nimitz> usually it stays between the teams
Sharpe> Vox is a friend - especially since we saved them from extinction
Sharpe> ND is ... a mystery at times
Sharpe> why do you ask?
Cort_Haus> You seem shocked that we'd show troops to GoW's homeland. You can't really blame us for wanting to threaten the enemy where it hurts though - otherwise we just hang around in Spain soaking up 3-mover attacks for ever.
Sharpe> No, we aren't shocked
Cort_Haus> So you've promised to help them defensively. Why?
Theseus> Hang on a sec CH... re confidentiality:
Nimitz> so you wouldn't destory them
Theseus> I would like us all to agree that this chat will be held confidential at least between our two teams. I leave it to you when to disclose within Lego. OK?
Nimitz> you are a powerful nation
Cort_Haus> So are you.
Sharpe> All right
Nimitz> ya but we are builders who don't like wars
Cort_Haus> so you threaten us with war...
Theseus> Nimitz? Confidentiality?
Nimitz> sharpe has answered
Theseus> OK, sorry, don't know the protocol.
Nimitz> its usual team agreement
Theseus> Bear with me for a sec while I lay out some key thoughts:
Sharpe> K
Theseus> * Look at the map of Bob; it's all about ND.
Theseus> * RP is basically done, 'cept we have them on life support.
Theseus> * We can face off against both ND and GoW in the south all day long. But 1) it's getting boring, and 2) it's non-productive.
Theseus> * I know that last point is not your concern, and is in a way to your benefit... but understand, we cannot allow the current state of affairs to continue.
Nimitz> so what you going to destroy some of there cities in the north and then get them to invade you
Theseus> * We are going to take out either ND or GoW...
Theseus> Do you think we mean to do this with just 12 Knights and 4 Pikes? 
Sharpe> no we know you have additional forces
Theseus> Wait a sec please... I was building up to something.
Sharpe> k
Cort_Haus> [drum roll]
Theseus> * We see an opportunity, one that I had mentioned to vondrack.
Theseus> We want to HIRE GoW.
Theseus> BRB
Theseus> I have asked vondrack in the past if this would be OK... and he was fine with it.
Theseus> Soooooo... how does that match up to your desires / objectives for this chat?
Sharpe> Hire GoW to do what ? Attack ND?
Theseus> You betcha. And yes, we know that will require teh absence of RP from Bob.
Sharpe> yeah, they have said that they want that
Theseus> I think it is part of their contract with ND.
Sharpe> we aren't so sure about that "contract" part ....
Theseus> I think they actually want to do what they set out to do... be mercs.
Theseus> Which is pretty cool, IMO.
Sharpe> at first yes, but we haven't seen much sign of that - they do appear to be working together
Nimitz> I prefer building
Cort_Haus> what did you guys want to talk about, btw.We already knew you'd declare war on us if we attacked the GoW homeland..
Theseus> Tangent: BTW, when I am maximally paranoid, I assume that Lego's "building" is all a facade and you are about to descend on us, and also that Beta's new tagline is about the PTWDG and all of our chickens are about to die.
Sharpe> no, we really are builders
Nimitz> just wishing to maintain balance
Sharpe> doesn't mean we don't have a good military though
Cort_Haus> mais biensur!
Theseus> Yeah, we noticed the power cahrt!
Theseus> chart
Nimitz> we don't you destroyed any more then GoW
Sharpe> economically GS and Lego are fairly close
Sharpe> in terms of equality
Theseus> So, CH had a good question, what were your objectives for this chat?
Sharpe> We would like to avoid war with GS if possible - so to figure out if there is a way for our defensive pact with GoW NOT to be activated
Theseus> Ah, ok.
Nimitz> I almost never have goals for a chat but as this is sharpes I don't know
Cort_Haus> Heh, join us all in smaking ND!
Sharpe> some background - why do you think we are part of the alliance with GoW and ND
Cort_Haus> ahem, smacking
Theseus> Are you?
Cort_Haus> Yes, it looked like that with the Ultimatum
Theseus> But with ND too?
Sharpe> hard to say , we do have a NAP with them
Sharpe> not sure how much longer it has to go
Sharpe> a) we realized that RP was doomed no matter what
Theseus> Well, to answer, I'd say you want peace in general, a balance of power, and a build-off.
Sharpe> yes that too re peace and balance
Sharpe> and c) No one had a clue about what was going on in GoW and ND
Theseus> what happened to b)?
Sharpe> your answer was b)
Theseus>
Sharpe> you know the phrase "Keep your friends close and your rivals even closer?"
Theseus> Let me cut to the chase: How do you feel about GoW (and Vox? and Lego?) having a good chunk of Bob?
Theseus> Us too of course... and if we can, we would like to try to restore part of Spain.
Sharpe> Hmmm
Theseus> Yeah, that's a definite "Hmmm" moment.
Sharpe> you are proposing a gangup on ND then?
Nimitz> well umm I don't know what the team would say
Theseus> I guess I'm proposing a balance of power sans ND.
Sharpe> What does GoW say about this?
Theseus> If anything, and my teammates might kill me for this... I'd like to see GoW STRONGER.
Last edited by vulture on 11-11-2003 at 14:29
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:24
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Part II
Sharpe> If you don't mind me asking
Nimitz> I don't think they would do this at all before any NAP with ND was ovver
Sharpe> how long has this war been going on for anyway in turns?
Theseus> @Nimitz: Yes, agreed, honor all deals.
Theseus> @Sharpe: NO idea.
Nimitz> that has been my policy
Cort_Haus> But could you at least stay neutral?
Nimitz> it would depend most likely
Cort_Haus> depend?
Nimitz> on what you came up with
Cort_Haus> you've already been offered territory
Nimitz> as in if GoW would agree
Sharpe> no , we mean re diplomatic fallout
Theseus> ??
Cort_Haus> with who? GS, GoW, Vox?
Nimitz> if both GoW and GS agree there would be none
Sharpe> what Nimitz said , if we had proof that GoW was onboard with this, things would look a little different
Theseus> I have floated this idea in front of MZ and Un0.
Cort_Haus> if you help us dismantle ND, we'll hardly hold that against you
Theseus> lol
Nimitz> that I know
Sharpe> question then : why has GoW asked us for help defending against your forces?
Cort_Haus> to precipitate this conversation?
Theseus> We needed both a carrot and a stick...
Sharpe> I doubt it - GoW was quite firm in invoking the defense clause
Nimitz> yes
Cort_Haus> good they were nervous
Theseus> If we can't make happen what we are discussing here, we needed to position ourselves for another course.
Nimitz> you most likely will not get them to agree by invading
Theseus> But we would MUCH rather do this.
Theseus> We have not yet invaded.
Cort_Haus> Brinkmanship
Nimitz> it alienates
Theseus> BTW, I do NOT mean to come off overly aggressive... we are in a tough sot and doing a best we can.
Cort_Haus> GoW and GS have been forcing each others hand to make not striking a deal wit heach other unpalatable
Sharpe> hmm, well if you don't invade, Lego won't be forced to join the war... which will please us
Nimitz> true
Cort_Haus> So you'd rather we did a deal with GoW?
Sharpe> if possible
Cort_Haus> cool
Nimitz> I think everyone would
Theseus> Can I digress for a moment?
Sharpe> k
Theseus> What's up with Vox? Is it just Beta? Are they just re-building?
Sharpe> they have 9 cities on Legos Minor
Nimitz> and have more then Beta
Theseus> We can see that... we have been waaaay impressed by the re-building.
Nimitz> we are happy for them
Sharpe> they seem to be concentrating on working the land - terrain there is rough - which is why we never settled it - that and the hordes of barbs
Nimitz> too true
Sharpe> you think that they are building up a military again?
Nimitz> barb barbs every where and not the time to spare
Theseus> Barbs... they are weird in C3C.
Theseus> @Sharpe: Only when I get really paranoid. Although they could be invited to take that isle from ND.
Sharpe> Isle from ND?
Sharpe> I don't think ND has an island
Sharpe> GoW does though
Theseus> Yeah, to the NW of Bob. Immortals don;t suck... we hae extra Iron.
Sharpe> no that is GoW 's area
Theseus> OH!! Sorry, you are right.
Nimitz> old plans???
Sharpe> besides, Vox's cities are still so small that their total production is less than even one of our major cities
Theseus> Well, they would be welcome to participate anyway... I wouldn;t mind tehm grabbing a juicy lux city, to give them a stake in the end-game...
Sharpe> what Lego is concerned about is what will do you if GoW says no , at least right now no to taking out ND?
Sharpe> admittedly they have said even to us that things are "open" after RP is gone
Theseus> Fair point.
Cort_Haus> You want to know our plan B as well?
Theseus> Throw bananas?
Nimitz> Yes why not
Sharpe> I thought chicken would be first food mentioned here
Cort_Haus> Well, it looks grim. World War....
Theseus> Chicken is NOT FOOD.
Theseus> We'll fight.
Nimitz> why not I like sweet and sour chicken
Sharpe> what we hope is that Lego and GS could perhaps come to an agreement to avoid any defense treaty being triggered if possible
Theseus> Heretic.
Theseus> I hear ya, Sharpe.
Nimitz> not in lego
Theseus> Not sure what to do though...
Sharpe> out of curiousity, do you find it curious that neither GoW or ND have tried to land on Stormia
Theseus> They don;t have the troops.
Cort_Haus> have you seen outr navy?
Nimitz> you see if war happen in may trigger a bad serise of evennts for all
Cort_Haus> yep
Sharpe> you have 12 ships? , admittedly a lot , but about the same as GoW and ND combined
Theseus> I hear ya, Nimitz.
Sharpe> and they do have the troops btw
Cort_Haus> So how come you made this serious comitment to defend GoW against GS? ...
Theseus> I think we are all at our keyboards thinking "What the heck do I type next."
Cort_Haus> ... a bit interventionist for builders isn't it - if you don't mind me saying.
Sharpe> Because we don't want them to invade Stormia...
Cort_Haus> really?
Sharpe> yep, more balance thing
Nimitz> yes
Sharpe> that is why they haven't tried
Nimitz> as I said balance
Cort_Haus> YOu could have sent troops to defend Stormia if you didn't want GoW to invade us
Sharpe> we would be willing , if we could reach Stormia easily
Nimitz> but we don't want the opposite either
Theseus> Cutting to the chase again: IF we can negotiate a deal with GoW, are you OK with a NEW balance: Lego, GS, and GoW, with Vox and RP as supporting players?
Nimitz> GoW falling
Nimitz> as I said that is not up to us its up to the team
Nimitz> we can't make desisions like that
Theseus> Fari enough... is it something to be considered, and what are yout thoughts on the team's likley thinking?
Theseus> Fair
Sharpe> Fair
Theseus>
Nimitz> I'd say 1/3, 1/3, 1/3
Sharpe> yeah, Nimitz is right
Theseus> That's all?
Nimitz> neutral for and against
Theseus> Also, would you want to fight, and would you want a piece of Bob?
Sharpe> the key would be the neutral people on Lego
Sharpe> that would depend on whether GoW was fully on board with this
Nimitz> if we agreed most likely
Theseus> Assume that we can get GoW on board.
Theseus> (Not that we REMOTELY have)
Sharpe> it would be a fair agreement re balance
Theseus> Please guide us as to the communications that would be necessary for the concurrence of the rest of Team Lego.
Cort_Haus> so am I right that you called this chat to see if there was a way for us to avoid war?
Sharpe> I think that GoW definitely wants resolution of the RP conflict before they will agree to anything
Theseus> Not now, but however you feel appropriate .
Sharpe> yes Cort_Haud
Sharpe> Cort_Haus sorry
Theseus> RP must leave Bob, that is clear.
Cort_Haus> the RP conflict is resolvable, we think
Sharpe> are you sure that GoW will accept RP only leaving Bob ?
Nimitz> in other word for GoW it would mean they would get more land them all of our land on bob put together
Theseus> ??
Cort_Haus> it's not just about land for GoW, its about the war
Nimitz> that would be there demand
Cort_Haus> - ending it
Sharpe> undoubtedly GoW would want a large chunk of Bob to agree to this
Nimitz> yup
Theseus> Yes, that is one of the key things that we can offer.
Cort_Haus> with ND out of the way t hey can have a contigious chunk...
Cort_Haus> .. that's better than a few buits the other side of ND
Cort_Haus> bits
Theseus> Yeah, I think none of us looks at GoW's territory and say "GREAT, just the empire I wanted to build!"
Cort_Haus> - which they'll have to fight us interminably for under the staus quo.
Theseus> BRB... 5 min.
Sharpe> yeah, GoW is in a bad situation re future strategic resources
Sharpe> oil rubber won't be likely showing up in their current territories
Cort_Haus> so you can see we have something to offer them
Sharpe> true
Nimitz> ya but I still think they would demand the most land
Cort_Haus> so there's hope for us all yet )
Sharpe> as long as others have parts of Bob , even GoW controlling most of Bob would have defensive problems
Nimitz> and you have to think about that
Nimitz> the demand
Cort_Haus> demand?
Nimitz> of most the land
Sharpe> what GoW would want in return for their support
Sharpe> I think that is what Nimitz is saying
Cort_Haus> OK...
Nimitz> yup
Cort_Haus> ... many turns ago, GoW/ND tried to take Spain ...
Nimitz> and are doing so
Cort_Haus> slowly
Sharpe> I don't know about that - the crucial battle seems to be for Pamplona - if it falls RP is finished...
Cort_Haus> if GoW have a contract to remove RP they've been held up by GS
Cort_Haus> GS can deliver their contract
Cort_Haus> RP in Spain would be finished. Not RP
Sharpe> have you guys thought about a RPxodus?
Cort_Haus> we musn't call it that...
Sharpe> doesn't work as well as Voxodus...
Sharpe> even at least temporarily?
Cort_Haus> theseeus used to known as RPodus and he doesn't want it used in that way!
Nimitz> so what you telling GoW right now???
Cort_Haus> I think you heard most of it
Sharpe> we have noticed that Theseus is in a room called #gow_cofa ...
Cort_Haus> Talks proceed with them
Cort_Haus> well how 'bout that
Cort_Haus> Theseus has some rapport with some of their guys
Nimitz> I have an electronic net
Theseus> rpodos the IRC newbie did not know that you could tell who is in what room.
Theseus> RPodus... absurd name.
Nimitz> ah weaklings you don't know the power of the /command
Sharpe> lol
Cort_Haus> so, my friends - do you feel nearer to or further from war with GS?
Sharpe> btw you guys aren't still insisting on "being caught up in tech" in your GoW discussions are you? they weren't too pleased with that
Nimitz> you actually gave it away
Nimitz> theseus
Theseus> How?
Nimitz> '/whois
Nimitz> and you were more active you appeared
Nimitz> easy
Theseus> So (and this doesn't matter 'cause it is all gonna come out anyway), the room should have been made secret ASAP?
Nimitz> as always
Nimitz> I did so with this
Theseus> Shades of RL.
Cort_Haus> so where were we?
Nimitz> what you telling GoW i bieve was last
Theseus> May I suggest we've accomplished what we needed to here? You do not want to get drawn into a war on Bob, and would like to see "a" balance of power maintained. We are pursuing such a path. GoW is the next step. Yes?
Cort_Haus> I dunno, I'm not in the room
Sharpe> yeah
Cort_Haus> ok, that's it then
Sharpe> we should continue to talk - been too long between chats
Sharpe> later I mean
Sharpe> not have this long gap between chats
Nimitz> we shall relay the chat to our team and see what they say
Cort_Haus> how do you get the text out of this Java window?
Nimitz> umm I don't know
Sharpe> you have to save the chat don't you?
Theseus> Agreed. More communication. Much more. I am going to try to make Monday evening my personal chat night. We will report back to you on our progress with GoW, and eagerly look forward to the results of Lego's internal discussions.
Nimitz> ok
Sharpe> ok
Cort_Haus> OK, we'll it's been great talking with you, it's good to see we all agree that we don't want war )
Nimitz> yes
Theseus> I have kept a log of most of this chat, and can email it to you if you'd like.
Sharpe> no we can save it
Nimitz> I've kept a log of all of it
Sharpe> thanks for the offer though
Theseus> Uh, gotta go. Good talk, REALLY good talk. Next, we need to discuss techs.
Theseus> See ya.
Nimitz> if we don't end up at war yes
Sharpe> Bye!
Nimitz> cya
Cort_Haus> bye
Theseus> That's a form of "See ya" too.
*** Retrieving #LOL info...
Nimitz> I know
Session Close: Sun Nov 09 21:32:06 2003
Last edited by vulture on 11-11-2003 at 14:34
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:24
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Session Start: Sat Nov 22 15:23:55 2003
Session Ident: #LegoGSmeeting
*** Now talking in #LegoGSmeeting
vondrack> the post was abolished
vondrack> hello, Theseus!
Theseus> Hi!
vondrack> glad to see you
Cort> hey, T!
vondrack> in a nutshell
vondrack> I was telling Cort Haus
vondrack> that the chat you had with Sharpe & Nimitz
vondrack> cause quite a debate in Lego
vondrack> *caused
vondrack> :sheesh:
Theseus> How so?
vondrack> primarily because they expressed
vondrack> their own opinions and stances a bit as if they were of Lego as a whole
vondrack> which they were not, or not completely
vondrack> they discussed things that were not discussed in our forum before
vondrack> and even things that were discussed and not really approved
vondrack> I feel very sorry for what happened
Cort> and I said that we guessed they might only been expressing their own opinions
vondrack> accept my deepest apologies
vondrack> now the tricky thing is
Theseus> I thought they were pretty clear that they were not speaking for Lego as a whole.
vondrack> ok, it was not as clear from the chatlog they posted in out forum
vondrack> ATM - I am "nobody"
vondrack> not holding any official position in Lego
vondrack> just being the primary player
Theseus> Who now leads?
vondrack> well, uhm...
vondrack> me
Theseus> And what is the tricky thing?
vondrack> but sort of informally
Theseus> Me too.
vondrack> the tricky thing is
vondrack> that Nimitz, who was present during that chat
vondrack> is now our FAM
vondrack> but he is not online and I cannot get him to attend to this chat
Theseus> Yeah, we've been trying to get into a chat with Nimitz.
vondrack> so you just have my word that what I tell you is the official stance of Legoland
Theseus> OK
vondrack> basically, there is very little I need to tell you
vondrack> but it is important
vondrack> the message we sent you (that "ultimatum")
vondrack> expressed our stance very precisely
vondrack> we would not be overly happy having to fight you
vondrack> but there are things forcing us to if you attack GoW
vondrack> there would be
vondrack> I mean
Theseus> We have not further entered GoW territory.
vondrack> understood
vondrack> so - if I may sum up what I needed to tell you
Theseus> In fact, we are pretty far along in negotiating a contract with them, as I had previously questioned you about.
vondrack> ok...
vondrack> I guess no need to sum anything up
Theseus> No... go ahead.
vondrack> I meant to say
vondrack> that I am glad to know you did not consider the chat "official"
vondrack> because that was a very important thing
Theseus> No problem... but we need to get official.
vondrack> the "official" stance was communicated through that message - that one was voted upon (unanimously, I may add)
Theseus> Give me a sec to lay out the situation, OK?
vondrack> ok
vondrack> go ahead
*** vondrack sets mode: +ooo Cort Kloreep Theseus
Theseus> We are negotiating with GoW for the removal of RP from Bob. This will satisfy their contract with ND.
Theseus> In the last turn, RP gifted us 3 out of 4 cities on Bob, leaving them only Pamplona.
Theseus> We are gifting them North Stormia for the time being.
Theseus> Next turn, we will either take Pamplona, or it will be abandoned.
Theseus> Once this is done, we will (hopefully) enter into a contract with GoW for the eradication of ND.
vondrack> has this been endorsed by GoW?
Theseus> We intend to split Bob with GoW, and then return RP to a limited portion of Bob.
Theseus> No, the contract is in draft, and certain key points are being negotiated. Primarily how the land gets split.
vondrack> I see
Theseus> Lego plays a role in this...
vondrack> ?
Theseus> We would like your approval of this plan, and commitment not to interfere.
Theseus> Further, we would like to invite you to participate.
Theseus> If you want.
Theseus> We have also discussed Lego settling a (small) piece of Bob as well.
Theseus> If you want.
vondrack> well, yes, this is where the issue gets complicated for me... or us
vondrack> give me a sec to express myself clearly
vondrack> an approval to the plan you are mentioning
Theseus> We are pursuing the idea of "balance" that your team members has discussed... just a balance of 3 primary teams ratehr than 4.
Theseus> Go ahead, sorry.
vondrack> would be subject to the approval of that plan by GoW in the first place
Cort> .. and if GoW's approvals depends on your approval?
Theseus> OF course.
vondrack> then perhaps we would have to consult with GoW first
vondrack> to be honest, we were briefly informed
vondrack> about the negotiations
vondrack> we know they took place, that is
Theseus> Good.
vondrack> what if GoW does not approve the plan?
Theseus> We have kept our troops in place for an... alternative resolution.
Theseus> We know your position in such case.
vondrack> yes
vondrack> so, if I read the situation correctly, it's GoW we are all waiting for
Theseus> Assuming your team members were not too far off in expressing your desires (i.e., Lego not fighting at the current time), this plan should meet with your approval.
Theseus> Hmmm... we are sort of waiting on GoW, but it's really a bit more complex.
vondrack> true
Theseus> If we can reach an agreement with GoW, will you approve of this plan?
vondrack> honestly, we have not even dicussed that possibility yet in our forum
vondrack> somehow...
vondrack> we believe that the bonds between GoW and ND may be more than just a "contract"
Theseus> The play well together.
Theseus> But I think GoW really do like being mercs.
vondrack> ok, let me state it this way:
vondrack> IF YOU GET GOW TO AGREE TO YOUR PLAN (the emphasis is on this part of the statement), Lego is open to all possible resolutions
Theseus> I understand the capitalized part, but not the second clause.
vondrack> but until we are officially informed by GoW, we are going to honour our current deals and bonds
vondrack> the second part says: there is nothing we would a priori mind about the plan you have drawn out
vondrack> though it was not really discussed yet
Theseus> OK, great... so I'll ask GoW to give you a ring?
vondrack> the capitalized part says we are less than sure you can get GoW to agree to it
Cort> we think we can
Cort> if you are ok with it
Theseus> We are "glass half full" types.
Theseus> vondrack, I'm going to draft my report to Aggie on this chat for your approval.
vondrack> not really necessary
Theseus> Just to make sure, OK?
vondrack> ok
Theseus> "We had a short chat with Lego. They are, of course, maintaining their current commitments, including their support of GoW in the event that we attack your homeland. They are aware of our current contract negotiations, and in the event that we enter into the contract against ND as described, they will not interfere."
Cort> how long would it take for approval to get from 'a priori' to definite?
Cort> (sorry)
vondrack> yes, I think this summary is correct
vondrack> just keep in mind (for yourself) I gave much emphasis on that "in the event"
Theseus> Understoood.
Theseus> OK, then, any techs or luxuries you want to give us?
vondrack> LoL
vondrack> the only luxury we have
vondrack> you alredy have
Theseus> At least it's not a friggin' C3C map!
vondrack> haven't had time to install my copy of C3C yet
vondrack> too much business last days and weeks
vondrack> (got C3C only few days ago)
Theseus> My first try at an epic game... Japan, no iron on the continent, and India next door!!
vondrack> LoL
vondrack> cool
Cort> India must be better now
Theseus> Same problem with time constraints, though.
Theseus> I think we are done... unless you want to discuss Lego's (and Vox'?) possible participation in the war on ND.
vondrack> that would be premature, I believe
vondrack> let's hear what GoW says first
vondrack> once we are past that
vondrack> we can discuss war on ND
Theseus> OK. I will send the above communication to Aggie.
vondrack> ok
Cort> thanks for the chat
Theseus> Oh... is there anything we should know about your gov't?
vondrack> gov't? what is that?
vondrack>
Theseus> Participation is down?
vondrack> all we still have is the FAM
vondrack> (NImitz)
vondrack> not really
vondrack> just that we ended up with very few formal positions
vondrack> oh, btw... I think you should know this
Theseus> Us too.
vondrack> Sharpe left Lego after the heated debate following the chat he and Nimitz had with you
Cort> wow!
Theseus> REALLY??!!
vondrack> yes
Cort> Funny, I was looking for him on the members list for the PM to call this
Theseus> I apologize if we in some way caused trouble.
vondrack> no, it was not your fault at all
vondrack> as far as I know, it was him asking your for the chat
Theseus> Being unauthorized?
vondrack> well, I mean - anything that was a consequence of that chat was a consequence of something HE asked for
vondrack> and of the reaction of the rest of the team to that
Theseus> DGs can be... intense.
vondrack> tell me...
Kloreep> Yes, this PTWDG has gotten far too intense at times...
vondrack> agreed
Kloreep> Hi there, popping back in to the chat
vondrack> but I learned more than one lesson here
Kloreep> Here's hoping for a carefree PTWDG II
Cort> and a bug free one
Theseus> BTW, I'd like to compliment you vondrack... you have had one of the cooler heads in the varios DG interactions I've seen.
Theseus> We are done here, yes? Back to GoW we go.
vondrack> ok, I do not see a reason to keep you any longer - I said what I was supposed to, making sure you do not misunderstand the previous chat, and now it is up to you to finish your talks with GoW
vondrack> yes
Theseus> See ya... thanks!!
vondrack> and... thanks, Theseus. I believe we belong to the same kind.
Cort> thanks, bye
vondrack> bye
*** Cort has left #LegoGSmeeting
Session Close: Sat Nov 22 16:07:50 2003
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:24
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quote:
Vondrack,
As you may be aware by now, GoW are not going to take up the GS offer.
National Holiday family commitments in the USA have delayed our turn. There's no way we can proceed on this most critical of turns without a full team discussion. So, Lego and GS are still, thankfully, at peace but if a vote is taken to attack GoW regardless then according to your policy a state of war would, most regrettably, exist between our nations.
This begs the obvious question: What would be the conditions for ending such a war?
Please consider the following frank and open analysis of the geo-political realities of the world :
We compared the size of the continents in the world in terms of tile count as a rough guide to productive power. Here are the findings :
Stormia : ~ 200 tiles (including 40 on N. Stormia)
Bob : ~ 750 tiles
Lego : ~ 400 tiles (exluding approx 80 New Voxia)
A glance at this shows that GS's potential productive power is only half that of Lego, and only half that of each civ of a 2-civ Bob. Of the four powers in the world, Gathering Storm clearly has the least chance of winning the game. In fact, our only chance was to (a) try to establish a production centre on Bob and (b) to prevent a 2-civ Bob by defending Spain. With RP eliminated as a power, GS has been facing 2 civs, each with a far-superior Knight unit, and both in Golden Age. With stalemate in the South, our only chance was to strike the enemy at home, but when we tried that we discovered, to our astonishment, that Lego is also comitted to our defeat as well, and we stand on the brink of all powers being openly allied in war against us.
If we elect not to attack GoW, we may instead turn round and say to Lego : "OK guys, you win - you've opposed us, defeated us, and we're getting off Bob. ND and GoW between them will soon have 750 tiles; Lego have 400. GS has 160. What do you think about the balance of power now? Are you still against us?"
Having defeated RP and driven GS from Bob in the above scenario, GoW and ND would either continue their alliance against another target, or they'd split up with ND, taking the whole of Bob. The Bobian uber-power would then have to decide whether Lego or Stormia is next, and if I was them, the prospect of Lego - already overtaking GS economically, catching up (if not already at parity) militarily, miles ahead on tech, still with a GA to come and industrialising soon - would be more threatening than a technologically backward, diplomatically isolated and militarily defeated GS.
True, Lego's 400 tiles against Bob's 750 tiles is better odds than those GS are facing : 200 tiles against 900, but a more even balance of power would see GS's 200 tiles combined with Lego's 400.
If GS were to survive as a competing power to the end-game, as pragmatists we would happily play either a build-out or a duke-out. GoW have no intention of there being a build-out, and so far ND seem to prefer military solutions. You guys are the Builder team, albeit prepared to go to war if you deem it necessary, so you'd surely be hoping for build-out rather than ending the game on GoWs terms (btw - if it came to Lego v Bob with GS out of the game, I personally would be rooting for Lego!).
So, Legonians, I have laid out some reasons why our nations should not be enemies - on the contrary, perhaps we should now be looking at forging closer ties. What say you?
Regards
CH
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04-08-2003 13:57
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