24-06-2003 03:40									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: [23:17] {DeepO} well, settling not [23:17] {DeepO} but gifting perhaps [23:17] {DeepO} and, in case you could get it to size 3... [23:17] {DeepO} it makes life a lot easier [23:17] [11:17pm] {@vondrack} we need to get rid of that city ASAP (messes with our corruption levels and planned builds) [23:17] [11:17pm] {@vondrack} BUT [23:17] [11:17pm] {@Aeson} we could then shave another turn off if it's size 3, as the palace jump would be safer [23:18] [11:18pm] {@vondrack} if we found it on T+5, which I believe will be the case [23:18] [11:18pm] {@vondrack} then T+5+10, it will be pop 2 again [23:18] [11:18pm] {@vondrack} that should be ok, right? [23:18] {DeepO} ergh one sec [23:18] {DeepO} do you mean T+10 [23:19] {DeepO} or T+15? [23:19] [11:19pm] {@vondrack} (T+5) to found the city, +10 to grow +1 pop [23:19] {DeepO} thought so [23:19] [11:19pm] {@Aeson} we can work with that... to get the palace there will require a bit more work and an extra turn though [23:19] [11:19pm] {@vondrack} the worker will be transformed in to the spear, that's a must [23:20] {DeepO} corruption levels: isn't it as far from your core as possible? [23:20] {DeepO} in which case corruption will be high, but doesn't affect your other cities, no? [23:20] [11:20pm] {@vondrack} not really... not far enough, heh [23:20] [11:20pm] {@Aeson} Does Vox have any gold? we only got 4g from Elipolis [23:20] [11:20pm] {@vondrack} no idea [23:20] [11:20pm] {@Aeson} they could probably just allow their city to be sacked over and over... [23:20] [11:20pm] {@Aeson} if you keep the Worker [23:20] {DeepO} not as long as it is size 2... [23:21] [11:21pm] {@Aeson} it wouldn't need to be size 3 [23:21] [11:21pm] {@vondrack} yep - losing pop would be a real danger [23:21] [11:21pm] {@Aeson} or 2 [23:21] [11:21pm] {@vondrack} barbs can kill pop, right? [23:21] [11:21pm] {@Aeson} and they'd teleport in before they grew to size 2 naturally [23:21] {DeepO} I know... if it's the only city left, it will be the capital no matter what [23:21] {DeepO} barbs can kill pop, yes [23:22] {DeepO} I'm not very sure on the telportation if the capital gets disbanded, though [23:22] {DeepO} we should test this... [23:22] {DeepO} and we definately need to chat with Vox on this [23:22] [11:22pm] {@Aeson} It's not part of the plan anyways [23:22] {DeepO} I know... [23:22] {DeepO} just realized that too [23:23] {DeepO} well... do we need more Lego input here? [23:23] {DeepO} we definately keep you informed [23:23] [11:23pm] {@Aeson} anyways, sorry for the tangent... back to business? [23:23] {DeepO} maybe best [23:23] [11:23pm] {@vondrack} sure, np [23:23] {DeepO} point 2. WM. [23:23] {DeepO} we want to start to disclose our map [23:23] {DeepO} certainly before someone else is charting our territory, and selling it instead of us [23:24] {DeepO} we're not doing that well economically, after the war [23:24] {DeepO} so... would Lego be interested in this? [23:24] [11:24pm] {@vondrack} hmmm [23:24] {DeepO} and if so, what would you care to offer us? [23:24] [11:24pm] {@vondrack} honestly, we may be not hit by a war [23:25] {DeepO} ? sorry, care to explain? [23:25] [11:25pm] {@vondrack} but we are a bit low on cash, too, considering two goldrushes we need to do [23:25] [11:25pm] {@vondrack} so, gold is hardly what we would be eager to offer [23:25] [11:25pm] {@vondrack} as for techs [23:25] [11:25pm] {@vondrack} you will get Theo for the peace [23:25] [11:25pm] {@vondrack} and we do not have anything else yet [23:26] {DeepO} well... let me explain one thing: we want to get little out of each civ [23:26] [11:26pm] {@vondrack} Edu has been slowed down by the gov switch a bit [23:26] {DeepO} if that means we don't face one civ profiting from our WM [23:26] {DeepO} let's rest this for a moment [23:26] [11:26pm] {@vondrack} yeah, I understand... do you have any idea about how big that bit should be in our case? [23:26] [11:26pm] {@vondrack} I mean [23:26] [11:26pm] {@vondrack} I would be happy to leave that for future [23:27] [11:27pm] {@vondrack} and promise [23:27] [11:27pm] {@vondrack} we will not try to get your WM [23:27] {DeepO} well... we have a under limit [23:27] [11:27pm] {@vondrack} from someone you trade it to [23:27] {DeepO} which I will not disclose [23:27] [11:27pm] {@vondrack} sure [23:27] {DeepO} but let's say that 50 gold you certainly cover our expenses [23:27] {DeepO} *would instead of you [23:27] {DeepO} the thing is, it is closely connected to point 3 [23:28] {DeepO} if it would be possible to trade [23:28] {DeepO} and you're interested in extra lux [23:28] {DeepO} you need our map [23:28] {DeepO} otherwise you won't see any of our harbor cities for a while [23:28] {DeepO} I think [23:28] {DeepO} (not sure on which will get build where, as it changes every few turns) [23:28] [11:28pm] {@vondrack} let me explain one thing here, please [23:28] {DeepO} sure [23:28] [11:28pm] {@vondrack} re: luxuries [23:29] [11:29pm] {@vondrack} while it is very true that we see this as a big problem in the long term view [23:29] [11:29pm] {@vondrack} our near future plans were put together on assumption we will have no more than 1 lux [23:29] {DeepO} okay [23:29] [11:29pm] {@vondrack} so at this very moment, an extra lux might be nice, but is not a matter of "survival" [23:30] {DeepO} 2 extra lux should mean something for you... even in the long term [23:30] [11:30pm] {@vondrack} I will take this 50 gold idea to my team and see [23:30] {DeepO} buut it might requirie adjusting your plans, I agree [23:30] [11:30pm] {@Aeson} I think that the Lighthouse doesn't allow trade over sea tiles anyways, so it would be a moot point [23:30] [11:30pm] {@vondrack} Legos are curious beings, after all... [23:30] {DeepO} fine, thanks! [23:30] [11:30pm] {@vondrack} [23:30] {DeepO} «Aeson» are you sure? [23:30] [11:30pm] {@Aeson} but Astronomy is getting near [23:31] [11:31pm] {@Aeson} almost certain [23:31] {DeepO} damn [23:31] {DeepO} too bad [23:31] {DeepO} I thought I saw it happening in one of my games [23:31] {DeepO} which is why I brought it up [23:31] [11:31pm] {@vondrack} actually - I believe that we shall have Astronomy within a reasonable timeframe [23:31] {DeepO} so you're definately going for edu next? [23:31] [11:31pm] {@vondrack} yes [23:31] {DeepO} maybe we could split research paths? [23:32] [11:32pm] {@vondrack} that would be wise, no doubt [23:32] {DeepO} currently, we're waiting on what shows up next... [23:32] {DeepO} but if you have any wishes, we might incorprate it better [23:32] [11:32pm] {@Aeson} what would your eta on Edu be? we want to get it asap [23:32] {DeepO} it will also depend on long term plans for Bob, of course [23:32] [11:32pm] {@vondrack} considering what I know ATM, Printing Press looks most viable for you, I believe [23:32] {DeepO} Ah, yes... we may be faster [23:32] [11:32pm] {@vondrack} since you can start with it [23:32] [11:32pm] {@vondrack} right after getting Theo from us [23:33] [11:33pm] {@Aeson} no real reason to research PP though, gold would be more useful to be honest [23:33] {DeepO} thanks, but I'm not sure that is really in our interest... [23:33] {DeepO} as Aeson said [23:33] [11:33pm] {@vondrack} yes, that's something I have no idea about - your gold situation [23:33] [11:33pm] {@vondrack} and such [23:33] [11:33pm] {@vondrack} I was speaking stricly in terms [23:33] {DeepO} well... for the moment it's okay, but we have a lot of military to pay for [23:33] [11:33pm] {@vondrack} of knowing who is researching or planning to research what [23:34] [11:34pm] {@vondrack} understood [23:34] {DeepO} and quite a number of building rushes we would like to, but can't afford [23:34] {DeepO} yes, but we appreciate your views on this [23:34] {DeepO} (I mean who is going for what) [23:34] {DeepO} it could be an idea that we go for edu, simply to be faster... [23:35] {DeepO} not that we have loads of libraries [23:35] {DeepO} but they are a priority [23:35] {DeepO} but a lot depend on your GA, of course [23:35] {DeepO} are you planning on having one soon [23:36] {DeepO} either by attacking a Voxian warrior, or building the right wonders? [23:36] [11:36pm] {@vondrack} no plans ATM, so I would say we do not [23:36] {DeepO} (If you don't mind me asking) [23:36] [11:36pm] {@vondrack} if soon is under 20-30 turns [23:36] {DeepO} well... yes [23:36] [11:36pm] {@vondrack} this may change, but I somehow doubt it would [23:36] {DeepO} It was one of the possible reasons you want Vox close by [23:36] {DeepO} well.. at least one of the reasons we saw [23:37] [11:37pm] {@vondrack} the sacrificed warrior? [23:37] {DeepO} yep [23:37] {DeepO} we wouldn't do it [23:37] {DeepO} but other teams don't have our honor code [23:37] {DeepO} (no offense, of course) [23:37] [11:37pm] {@vondrack} well, yes, there is a clause like that in the treaty draft... but I would feel pretty much like you - it's a bit cheesy [23:37] {DeepO} indeed... [23:37] [11:37pm] {@vondrack} clause = to keep a warrior in reserve [23:38] [11:38pm] {@vondrack} I believe we will try to use a wonder trigger [23:38] [11:38pm] {@vondrack} but as I said - that was honest - no plans ATM [23:38] {DeepO} are there definate plans there which you will definately need? [23:39] [11:39pm] {@vondrack} which wonders, you mean? [23:39] {DeepO} Oh, and I believe you on the plans... I'm trying to grasp the situation [23:39] {DeepO} yeah [23:39] {DeepO} because we got offers in the very beginning of the game from several teams [23:39] {DeepO} to agree not to build a wonder [23:39] {DeepO} you were one of those teams, I believe [23:39] {DeepO} we never agreed to any of them [23:39] {DeepO} Sistine will be the first... [23:40] [11:40pm] {@vondrack} no, I do not think so - the Sistine is the first time we are trying to secure a wonder in this way [23:40] [11:40pm] {@vondrack} partially because knowing how close Pyramids were [23:40] {DeepO} very [23:40] [11:40pm] {@Aeson} I'm pretty sure it was RP you are thinking about DeepO [23:40] {DeepO} about 25 shields, I believe [23:40] {DeepO} ah, sorry [23:40] {DeepO} I thought there were more [23:40] [11:40pm] {@vondrack} yes, RPers did contact us regarding wonders before [23:41] [11:41pm] {@vondrack} but no deal was ever made [23:41] {DeepO} but it all happened a long time ago, and it's easy to get confused if you're 2 ambassadors at once [23:41] [11:41pm] {@vondrack} [23:41] {DeepO} okay... just to let you know I don't think we'll do it easily again [23:42] [11:42pm] {@vondrack} understood [23:42] {DeepO} I mean... it costs us in planning... and extra constraints we don't need [23:42] {DeepO} it's hard enough as it is [23:42] [11:42pm] {@vondrack} errr... it helps planning, too, in a way... [23:43] [11:43pm] {@vondrack} but I know what you have in mind [23:43] {DeepO} not if you don't have agreements with everyone [23:43] [11:43pm] {@vondrack} yes, that's true [23:43] [11:43pm] {@vondrack} needs a lot of diplo stuff to pull such a thing [23:43] {DeepO} and we kind of established our skills there [23:43] [11:43pm] {@vondrack} we are still not done with Sistine, even if you agree to the deal [23:43] [11:43pm] {@vondrack} but we keep trying [23:43] [11:43pm] {@vondrack} LoL [23:43] [11:43pm] * Aeson chuckles [23:44] {DeepO} [23:44] [11:44pm] {@vondrack} yes [23:44] {DeepO} well... you have one less competitor for Sistine [23:44] [11:44pm] {@vondrack} anyway - I do not see us trying to pull another wonder deal like this any time soon again [23:45] {DeepO} so... to get back on track: you're not really interested in lux before Astronomy [23:45] {DeepO} so we don't need to test it [23:45] [11:45pm] {@vondrack} perhaps in a lux for lux trade [23:45] {DeepO} (and I learned one thing: to follow Aeson's hunches) [23:45] [11:45pm] {@vondrack} but not in lux for gold [23:45] {DeepO} ah, but that was our intention [23:45] {DeepO} you're not the only one who want luxes [23:45] [11:45pm] {@vondrack} I can imagine that [23:46] {DeepO} even if we most likely will find enough teams willing to trade on Bob [23:46] {DeepO} but that in itself is tricky [23:46] {DeepO} as every lux deal is an implicit NAP [23:46] [11:46pm] {@vondrack} yeah [23:46] {DeepO} and we really would prefer to keep to our own for now [23:46] {DeepO} and not get involved into whatever Bob is cooking up the following 20 turns [23:47] {DeepO} which we have no idea about... they're all telling us different things [23:47] [11:47pm] {@vondrack} though, there is something... have you noticed how much stronger on the powergraph GoW & ND got in the last few turns? [23:47] {DeepO} yes... and you in score [23:47] [11:47pm] {@vondrack} us in score? [23:47] [11:47pm] {@vondrack} I believe you maintain the 8-9 point lead [23:47] {DeepO} one sec, checking [23:47] [11:47pm] {@vondrack} all the time [23:48] {DeepO} well, we may be one turn ahead of you [23:48] {DeepO} (don't know for usre) [23:48] {DeepO} but you jumped in score last turn [23:48] [11:48pm] {@vondrack} aha, yes [23:48] [11:48pm] {@vondrack} did we? [23:48] [11:48pm] {@vondrack} good! [23:48] {DeepO} meaning another city, border increase, or most likely a combination of those [23:49] [11:49pm] {@vondrack} border increase, actually [23:49] {DeepO} as it was a kind of big jump [23:49] [11:49pm] {@vondrack} two or three temples [23:49] {DeepO} thought so... it was large [23:49] {DeepO} well... with Vox's land going to us, we would have surpassed that easily [23:49] [11:49pm] {@vondrack} you can judge from the cultural graph, too - we are growing there, too [23:49] {DeepO} I'm actually glad we're not alone in becoming more powerful [23:49] [11:49pm] {@vondrack} oh, please, do surpass us! [23:50] {DeepO} sorry, I don't have access to that one [23:50] [11:50pm] {@vondrack} we are quite happy to be #2 [23:50] {DeepO} nah... thank you

	24-06-2003 03:44									#92
	Remove this text

quote: [23:50] [11:50pm] {@vondrack} acces to what? [23:50] {DeepO} culture graph [23:50] {DeepO} I don't have the save [23:50] [11:50pm] {@vondrack} ah [23:50] [11:50pm] {@vondrack} ok [23:50] {DeepO} and culture does not get send in screenie everytime [23:50] [11:50pm] {@vondrack} I see [23:50] [11:50pm] {@Aeson} they are taking off quite a bit in that regard [23:50] {DeepO} already the mails are kind of large (1 MB) [23:51] {DeepO} it is as I said in our last chat: Vox forced us to become the monster, while the pyramids will grow you into one [23:51] [11:51pm] {@vondrack} yeah... if only church would be able to run those temples without the need for the gold... [23:51] {DeepO} there is little that can be done about that [23:52] [11:52pm] {@vondrack} that was re: Aeson's line [23:52] [11:52pm] {@Aeson} So are you going for Cathedrals in most cities then? To take advantage of Sistene? [23:53] [11:53pm] {@vondrack} sooner or later, yes - but the thing is that most of our cities are not yet up to builds like cathedrals [23:53] [11:53pm] {@vondrack} only the very core [23:53] [11:53pm] {@vondrack} Sistine is a long-term asset in our eyes [23:53] [11:53pm] * Aeson nods [23:54] {DeepO} before unis? [23:54] [11:54pm] {@vondrack} will probably depend on whether there are libs in the respective cities [23:54] [11:54pm] {@vondrack} sometimes yes, sometimes not [23:54] {DeepO} a lot depends on where you see yourself in terms of research [23:55] {DeepO} if you want to grow the top researcher or not [23:55] {DeepO} (after us, of course ) [23:55] [11:55pm] {@vondrack} LoL [23:55] [11:55pm] {@Aeson} If GS could get to Education quickly, would it be enough to get you interested in taking Invention instead? [23:55] [11:55pm] {@vondrack} nope, sorry [23:55] {DeepO} noo trust? [23:55] {DeepO} *no [23:55] [11:55pm] {@vondrack} we have already invested into researching Edu [23:55] [11:55pm] {@vondrack} trust is no problem [23:55] {DeepO} ? [23:56] {DeepO} you don't have Theo already have you? [23:56] [11:56pm] {@Aeson} You have Theology now then? [23:56] [11:56pm] {@vondrack} I mean - we are already researching it [23:56] [11:56pm] {@vondrack} sure [23:56] {DeepO} otherwise our analysists are not up to date [23:56] {DeepO} damn... [23:56] [11:56pm] {@vondrack} we do have Theo [23:56] {DeepO} that's news not everybody is going to want to hear [23:56] [11:56pm] {@vondrack} and will be sending it to you right after the deal gets signed [23:56] [11:56pm] {@Aeson} what's your eta on Edu? [23:57] [11:57pm] {@vondrack} which may be even this very turn, I believe (Theo to you) [23:57] [11:57pm] {@vondrack} ETA on Edu? [23:57] [11:57pm] {@vondrack} let me check [23:57] [11:57pm] {@Aeson} thats nice [23:57] {DeepO} Theo would be very nice [23:57] {DeepO} not that we could use it immediately, but it means we need to discussing what to researhc next very soon [23:59] [11:59pm] {@vondrack} hmmm... the earliest ETA seems to be 6-7 turns, but I am not sure that will be the case - as I said, we need some extra gold for important pre-wonder rushes [23:59] [11:59pm] {@vondrack} ad we may knock the research slider down a bit [23:59] [11:59pm] {@vondrack} *and [23:59] {DeepO} I'm not sure we can match that... [23:59] {DeepO} well... nm... we don't want to go for edu if you're faster anyway [00:00] [12:00am] {@vondrack} yep, understood [00:00] [12:00am] {@Aeson} I agree... I think we'd be at least a few turns slower [00:00] {DeepO} are there any techs you already have deals for, and would not consider getting from us? [00:00] [12:00am] {@vondrack} yes - Engineering and Chivalry [00:01] [12:01am] {@vondrack} that's why I mentioned PP [00:01] {DeepO} as printing press doesn't really suit us, I think [00:01] [12:01am] {@vondrack} sure, understood [00:01] {DeepO} yeah... well.. we might go for invention first [00:01] [12:01am] {@vondrack} that would be a good idea [00:01] {DeepO} but that requires Engineering. [00:01] [12:01am] {@vondrack} no deal for Invention yet [00:01] {DeepO} hmmm... will have to think about that.. [00:01] [12:01am] {@vondrack} ND is doing Engineering [00:02] {DeepO} yeah, but they're not the only ones [00:02] {DeepO} or at least not the only source [00:02] [12:02am] {@vondrack} right, Voxes, too [00:02] [12:02am] {@vondrack} but they are slow [00:02] [12:02am] {@vondrack} 40-turn research, I assume [00:02] {DeepO} yeah, sure [00:02] {DeepO} we may even be able to trade it to you before that time [00:03] [12:03am] {@vondrack} so - Invention would sound good to us, yes [00:03] [12:03am] {@vondrack} hehe [00:03] {DeepO} maybe we can help each other? [00:03] {DeepO} I'm not sure if this would be a good idea diplomatically [00:03] [12:03am] {@vondrack} as we do not plan to go for Invention, we can wait few more turns if it saves us gold or something [00:04] {DeepO} but we could split costs: you research, we go for gold [00:04] {DeepO} and combine at the end [00:04] {DeepO} we're all the time trying to not get into the same trouble as with Feud [00:04] [12:04am] {@Aeson} since we can't start Invention for what... 11 more turns is Vox's ETA? [00:04] {DeepO} as it cost us dearly [00:04] [12:04am] {@vondrack} not sure if I am understanding this right - are we talking about Edu or Invention now? [00:04] {DeepO} Edu [00:05] {DeepO} Invention is something else [00:05] {DeepO} in that we need a prereq [00:05] {DeepO} and can't start right now [00:05] [12:05am] {@vondrack} ah... and ND is not an option? [00:05] {DeepO} well... who would pay, if he can get things for free? [00:05] [12:05am] {@Aeson} their ETA is roughly the same I think [00:05] [12:05am] {@vondrack} true [00:05] {DeepO} yeah, saving for upgrades [00:06] [12:06am] {@vondrack} they must be after something [00:06] [12:06am] {@vondrack} made quite some efforts to ensure our neutrality [00:06] {DeepO} which is something also a bit strange, it doesn't look to me like ND, or GoW has big cash reserves [00:06] {DeepO} well... they were trying here too [00:06] [12:06am] {@vondrack} were they? [00:06] {DeepO} but as I explained: we want to remain neutral [00:07] {DeepO} so we won't sign NAPs with Bobians soon [00:07] [12:07am] {@Aeson} So if you need cash to research Edu fast, it might be in both our best interests if GS supplies the cash so you can research faster. [00:08] [12:08am] {@vondrack} not sure about this - negotiating anything in this regard would most probably exceed whatever mandate I have [00:08] {DeepO} well.. ours too [00:08] [12:08am] {@Aeson} ours too [00:08] [12:08am] {@vondrack} but I can sure bring that up in the forum [00:08] [12:08am] {@vondrack} [00:08] {DeepO} but if it means we can have some discussion about it soon, we might get something useful out of this [00:09] {DeepO} if we don't suggest it, or if you outright refuse [00:09] {DeepO} we don't need to bother to ask [00:09] {DeepO} and GS needs time to come to decisions [00:09] [12:09am] {@vondrack} yup - just BTW, what would you consider as your next tech after acquiring Edu? [00:09] {DeepO} as we truely are democratic [00:09] [12:09am] {@vondrack} that may be important [00:09] {DeepO} invention, perhaps [00:09] [12:09am] {@Aeson} Banking or Astronomy [00:09] {DeepO} ergh... correct that, banking [00:09] [12:09am] {@Aeson} and now you see how GS works... we all have different ideas [00:09] {DeepO} as astronomy most likely is for you [00:10] [12:10am] {@vondrack} LoL [00:10] {DeepO} lol [00:10] [12:10am] {@Aeson} we haven't had a good thread on this yet [00:10] {DeepO} too busy [00:10] [12:10am] {@vondrack} yes - you are the Many Voices, they are The One Voice... [00:10] [12:10am] {@Aeson} even edu/invention hasn't been discussed [00:10] {DeepO} no, but this chat surely could provide a start [00:11] {DeepO} in case you are (remotely) interested in getting something like this going [00:11] [12:11am] {@vondrack} alright - I believe there is no reason to expect that a deal on Edu would be outright rejected [00:11] [12:11am] {@vondrack} I will post about it and see what the response is [00:11] {DeepO} with one major point: total secrecy [00:11] [12:11am] {@vondrack} sure [00:11] {DeepO} we definately don't need to let Bob think we're forming a 3-way partnership here [00:12] {DeepO} (Lego_Vox_GS) [00:12] [12:12am] {@vondrack} right [00:12] {DeepO} even if there is no real partnership, some little word can be enough to let them see past there differences [00:12] {DeepO} and go do some invading [00:13] {DeepO} not that they won't be welcome here [00:13] [12:13am] {@vondrack} haven't had fighting enough? [00:13] {DeepO} nah.. 2 turns of peace, and already we're getting bored [00:13] [12:13am] {@vondrack} there is no more Legos Something for another half-dead nation... [00:14] {DeepO} [00:14] [12:14am] {@vondrack} [00:14] {DeepO} we're definately not going to turn Vox into a reservation [00:14] {DeepO} the next one on the brink of dying, can die... [00:14] [12:14am] {@vondrack} ? [00:14] {DeepO} I mean former Vox country [00:14] [12:14am] {@vondrack} ah, ok [00:14] [12:14am] {@vondrack} I get it now [00:15] {DeepO} well... anything else? [00:15] [12:15am] {@Aeson} Might be all that some of it is useful for though.. [00:15] {DeepO} I think we've got a lot to discuss back home... [00:15] [12:15am] {@vondrack} yep [00:15] [12:15am] {@vondrack} agreed [00:15] {DeepO} yeah, true [00:15] [12:15am] {@vondrack} so, summary: [00:15] [12:15am] {@vondrack} 1) you work on your Vox hop plan and keep us posted [00:16] [12:16am] {@vondrack} 2) we continue moving our settler+worker combo to the site of the new Voxian capital [00:16] [12:16am] {@vondrack} 3) I PM you the Theo+no Sistene draft right after this chat ends [00:16] [12:16am] {@vondrack} (if you can get a signed version back to me before we play our turn, you can have Theo on your next turn) [00:17] {DeepO} (should be possible, it was already agreed on) [00:17] [12:17am] {@vondrack} 4) I post your offer on WM for ~50 gold in our forum [00:17] [12:17am] {@vondrack} 5) I post about the possible Edu for gold deal [00:17] [12:17am] {@vondrack} anything else? [00:17] [12:17am] {@vondrack} 6) total secrecy [00:17] {DeepO} yeah... especially #6 [00:17] {DeepO} we're getting a bit paranoid on thisd [00:17] {DeepO} further I agree... [00:18] {DeepO} maybe add 7) that GS needs to seriously think on what to research next [00:18] {DeepO} (including after edu) [00:18] {DeepO} Aeson, anything else? [00:18] [12:18am] {@vondrack} that is a good idea, yes - I guess that might affect our decision regarding the Edu deal [00:19] {DeepO} I can imagine [00:19] [12:19am] {@vondrack} we would not want to give you a tech that would help you to become our main research competitor, that's obvious [00:19] {DeepO} but as long as we know what paths are open, we can anticipate [00:19] [12:19am] {@vondrack} in "our" branch, I mean [00:19] {DeepO} sure, np [00:19] [12:19am] {@vondrack} generally, that cannot be avoided [00:19] {DeepO} I prefer to have an open partner [00:19] [12:19am] {@vondrack} likewise [00:19] {DeepO} instead of a direct competitor [00:20] [12:20am] {@vondrack} [00:20] [12:20am] {@vondrack} good [00:20] {DeepO} ah, one point left [00:20] [12:20am] {@vondrack} yes? [00:20] {DeepO} I posted you that as of now, Arrian is vice ambassador [00:20] [12:20am] {@vondrack} ok, fine [00:20] {DeepO} well... it seems we also have a vice-vice ambassador: nye [00:20] [12:20am] {@vondrack} [00:20] [12:20am] {@vondrack} now, that's smart [00:21] {DeepO} so, in case you can't reach us, you know who to turn too [00:21] [12:21am] {@vondrack} yup [00:21] [12:21am] {@vondrack} it's no secret we get along with nye very well, is it? [00:21] {DeepO} no... but it is also needed [00:21] {DeepO} you guys meet each other much more naturally [00:22] {DeepO} whereas each time I want to chat on 'poly, I spend half an hour to get in [00:22] [12:22am] {@vondrack} yes, that's because of our common ISDG experience... we learnt to "feel" each other [00:22] {DeepO} so.. I think this is about it from my side [00:22] {DeepO} it's been great chatting with you [00:22] [12:22am] {@vondrack} my pleasure [00:22] {DeepO} I definately will try to get back on my Sunday schedule [00:23] {DeepO} if that still suits you [00:23] [12:23am] {@vondrack} thank you, Aeson, for attending, too [00:23] [12:23am] {@Aeson} my pleasure [00:23] [12:23am] {@vondrack} yes, most probably (Sundays) [00:23] {DeepO} cool [00:23] [12:23am] {@vondrack} great - take care, guys! [00:23] {DeepO} in that case, my regards to Legoland! [00:23] [12:23am] {@vondrack} and talk to you soon [00:24] [12:24am] {@Aeson} later vondrack [00:24] [12:24am] {@vondrack} give my best regards to the victorious folk of GS! [00:24] [12:24am] {@vondrack} bye [00:24] {DeepO} bye! [00:24] {DeepO} I read that as vicious [00:24] {DeepO} lol [00:24] [12:24am] {@vondrack} hehe... that would be a serious diplomatic faux pas... [00:24] [12:24am] {@vondrack} ok, see you [00:24] [12:24am] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has parted. «3 people» [00:25] {DeepO} just checking the log... [00:25] {DeepO} after which I'm off too Session Close: Tue Jun 24 00:25:41 2003

	24-06-2003 04:16									#93
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quote: Vondrack, this should not be any problem to accept, as it was what we anticipated. However, I need to have some time to let my team comment on it... I'm not sure if we can get this done in time for your turn to end (depends on when it gets played, of course). I'll get back to you asap, but seeing as 99% sure this will get ratified, would it be an idea to 'gift' it to us even if we would be a little late? In case any problem arrises, you can be sure we will not accept the deal. Again, thanks in your role as mediator, and generous offer... it certainly had an impact on silencing the StormHawk party DeepO quote: Hello, DeepO! Here is the Theology deal draft I promised to send you - I'm doing this in a hurry and feeling a bit sleepy already, so let's hope I made no mistakes: quote: Legoland-GS Theology Trade Agreement 1) Legoland agrees to provide Gathering Storm (GS) with Theology immediately after signing this agreement. GS agrees to not resell/trade/gift this technology to any other party for 20 turns from receiving it. After these 20 turns, GS agrees to not trade Theology to any other team, unless that team also agrees to not build Sistine's Chapel as part of the trade. 2) GS agrees to not attempt to build Sistine's Chapel as long as Legoland remains in the game. Hope this is acceptable. If you can send me a signed copy back, we will send Theology as "accepted" on this very turn. Best regards, vondrack

	24-06-2003 04:32									#94
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quote: No problem, we can do that for you. Will add gifting Theo to you to our turn plan. Cheers, vondrack

	24-06-2003 20:19									#95
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quote: Vondrack (and other members of Legoland), quote: Legoland-GS Theology Trade Agreement 1) Legoland agrees to provide Gathering Storm (GS) with Theology immediately after signing this agreement. GS agrees to not resell/trade/gift this technology to any other party for 20 turns from receiving it. After these 20 turns, GS agrees to not trade Theology to any other team, unless that team also agrees to not build Sistine's Chapel as part of the trade. 2) GS agrees to not attempt to build Sistine's Chapel as long as Legoland remains in the game. I hereby officially declare the deal on Theology as ratified by Gathering Storm. Many thanks for another fine deal, we hope many more will follow. There was one thing which for a very brief moment worried some of our members: we're not planning on doing it, but we're hoping that in case of emergency, we could use the Sistine as a prebuild for another wonder. Your proposal does not explicitely forbids this, and we don't think it would be against the spirit of the deal, but just had to check this before you got upset, seeing us building the Sistine. In no case will we actually build the Sistine, no matter if it would be allowed as a prebuild. Kind regards from Gathering Storm, DeepO

	24-06-2003 21:51									#96
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quote: Thanks Vondrack, As to the Edu deal: I certainly will propose it to my team. However, on a personal note, I'm not sure we would be willing to disclose our exact gold income, I hope you can appreciate this... openness has it limits But, as a start of a proposal it certainly counts, let me find out how much we can invest... it will depend on a few details, I assume you would be interesting in a 20-turn NDA, leaving you as the sole provider for Edu to other nations, after all, you did the research, even if we 'helped'. Allow me to discuss this in our forum, I'll get back to you asap. As to prearranging a Astronomy / banking swap: I think this certainly has a good chance of succeeding. However, we're still not sure what to research next, even if it was said a couple of times that tech for tech deals are maybe the only way to get decent prices for our research. I think we would welcome all good proposals here, and would be willing to adapt quite a bit to other teams, if it wouldn't cost us as dearly as the Feudalism fiasco. So, for how much I have any power in these matters (I'm just one of many voices ), these proposals are very interesting, and can at least lead to good deals for both sides. I assure you they will get the attention they deserve. kind regards, DeepO quote: Hello, DeepO! We are happy to see you happy about the deal. And - using the Sistine's Chapel as a prebuild for another wonder is definitely not a problem with us at all. Just a quick idea, not really official, but may be good to consider... discussing our chat from last night with my teammates today, it seems we'd not mind selling Edu to you, if the price in gold is right - we would probably be looking for roughly half of what you can save by going 100% tax until we finish researching Edu (~6 turns to go, it seems)... dunno how much that would actually be, so I'll leave determining the figure up to you. Let's hope it will be enough to make it a fine deal for us, too... not sure how many retiring soldiers you have to pay these days... But - the idea... to make the deal even more attractive for you, we might discount this amount by the value of your WM (~40-50 gold) AND couple it with a fine future tech deal. What about prearranging a trade where we would provide your with Astronomy in exchange for Banking? Astronomy is slightly more expensive beaker-wise, so this might be an additional sweetener for you... just an idea. We do not want Bobians to become too strong, do we? So we better help each other, I guess... Regards, vondrack

	25-06-2003 12:50									#97
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quote: quote: As to the Edu deal: I certainly will propose it to my team. However, on a personal note, I'm not sure we would be willing to disclose our exact gold income, I hope you can appreciate this... openness has it limits Hehe... That's why we are trying to mix the map value and the beaker cost difference between Astronomy and Education in - this way, it is not that obvious how much accounts for which part. We have some idea how much gold you might be able to "save", and 1/2 of it is what we would be lookiing for. No need for precise numbers. If we are more or less correct about your commerce output and if you more or less offer half of it, then it will likely be a deal. quote: I assume you would be interesting in a 20-turn NDA, leaving you as the sole provider for Edu to other nations, after all, you did the research, even if we 'helped'. Allow me to discuss this in our forum, I'll get back to you asap. Yes, 20-turn NDA would be part of the deal (just like with the Bank/Astro part, if it becomes part of it). We feel 10-turn NDAs are too short and actually help the non-researching nations to screw those that spend resources on the researcher. Best regards, vondrack

	25-06-2003 22:34									#98
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quote: Vondrack, I'm sorry, I have very little time atm (some friends are nagging me to stop typing and go out with them), so my apologies if I miss some things here. We discussed the Edu deal on our forum, and response has been very positive. So, would you be interested in receiving 180 gold + our WM as a future payment for Education? If you approve, I'm sure we can send payment this turn (we still hold the save). This should be about what you expected, but if not, let us know. This includes a 20-turn NDA, and a future banking / astronomy swap (again with 20-turn NDAs) (sorry to not be able to more formally formulate this due to time-constraints). Further, we were thinking on a way of not cutting into each other's profits, that even if the 20-turn NDA expires, we share profits from the sale of each other's techs. This is still a rough idea, so possibly a chat could more accurately outline something that is beneficial to both of us. If we could agree on this soon, we should be able to do this also for Education, in case you would not be able to sell it to Bob if war breaks out. In order to be faster, could you (also) send a response to Arrian and nye? This evening, they should be around to handle further negotiations, including a formal ratification. I can't check the forum before tomorrow... my apologies. Kind regards, DeepO

	26-06-2003 13:19									#99
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Vondrack, I can imagine your surprise... it is as we thought. We might be able too sweeten the deal on your side a bit, however we did not lie to you about our income. Don't forget we had no time to build marketplaces, and our military is quite possibly double or triple yours. The Vox war has cost us a lot... we're recuperating though, but it will take time. But, one (personal) remark about pricing: with a 20-turn NDA, and even a commitment of us to not profit from Edu even after the NDA would have been finished, you can't expect that we pay half your beaker cost in gold... you have 4 more buyers, and the second-researcher cost is already lower... don't get me wrong, I'm sure we can up the price (a little), but don't expect miracles As to delaying Education (or payment): that shouldn't be needed. As long as we can reach an agreement before you run out of cash, we should be able to fulfill our part of the deal. While we would have hoped to have higher cash reserves (a lot higher cash reserves ), we're not broke... kind regards, DeepO quote: DeepO, Sorry - I was AFK since ~6pm my time yesterday - got your PM only this morning. Honestly - 180 gold is less than what we were hoping for. If (180+50)*2/6=~80 gpt is all what is left after paying your upkeep costs, then... well, we feel for you. 230 gold for Education is... hm... let's say, we'd be EXTREMELY happy to buy Edu for 230 gold ourselves, that's for sure. I am posting your PM in our forum to see what other Legos think. Possible adjustments I can think of now: delaying the discovery of Edu so that you have 1-2 extra turns to save a bit more cash or postponing a small part of the payment (above the sum you offered) until the Astro/Bank swap. Either way - I do not think this must be finalized until we are really close to discovering Education - we should have at least 2-3 turns to come up with more ideas. We do not ask for any "prepayments" and we can certainly wait few more turns for your map, so there is no need to hold the save just to have the deal finalized with us. Even though we will most probably want to add something to the deal, I hope we are not far from reaching a compromise acceptable for both sides. I hope to be able to get back to you very soon. Regards, vondrack

	27-06-2003 13:52									#100
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quote: Vondrack, Sorry, very little time today at work, but it looks we'll be getting there. I'll post your message on our board, and see what the others think. I don't have clearance to accept this deal, it's above what we previously agreed to, so it's going to need another poll (Democracy, democracy, *sigh* ) You're right with the comparison to Feud, which was the same one we made: we asked 25% of the first researcher cost, which should become some 270 for Edu. However, as was so painfully proven, our deal only came with a 10-turn NDA, and made future trade possible... which is why we value Edu less. But, granted, we want Edu, and you were in no hurry to acquire Feud (well, you didn't either ). If at all possible, I'd like to postpone the discussion on mutual profit after NDA for this weekend (Sunday chat?), we've got a couple of ideas, but nothing final yet, and would love to hear your take on things. Main idea is that we don't become competitors on techs which we cooperated on. However, we don't want to limit trade with other teams either... so eternal NDAs will probably be undesirable. For the moment, let's assume 20-turn classic NDAs. Thanks for the exact Eta, it will surely help in planning. Also here are some points we'd like to discuss on Sunday: a couple of times it was raised in our forum that faster research isn't always the best, certainly not when war would break out on Bob. Maybe we shouldn't speed along too fast (I received some comments from trying to speed research on edu, and indeed, while there are a number of advantages, there are also disadvs involved) It looks like Sunday's chat is again going to become a busy one, in the mean time, I'll see what I can do to meet your price. You'll hear from me soon, kind regards, DeepO quote: Hello, DeepO! quote: I can imagine your surprise... it is as we thought. We might be able too sweeten the deal on your side a bit, however we did not lie to you about our income. Don't forget we had no time to build marketplaces, and our military is quite possibly double or triple yours. The Vox war has cost us a lot... we're recuperating though, but it will take time. It was not we wouldn't believe your words - it was that the amount of gold looked... well... we're speaking here about Education, costing over 1000 beakers to research... would you be happy to sell it for ~230 gold (and that's with the map being valued at 50 gold)? Just remember how much you asked for Feudalism, which was more than 25% cheaper to research... plus, selling you Education for gold at this moment definitely involves many strategic aspects on both sides. quote: But, one (personal) remark about pricing: with a 20-turn NDA, and even a commitment of us to not profit from Edu even after the NDA would have been finished, you can't expect that we pay half your beaker cost in gold... you have 4 more buyers, and the second-researcher cost is already lower... don't get me wrong, I'm sure we can up the price (a little), but don't expect miracles I hope we do not expect miracles , but upping the price a bit is definitely the way to go. Discussing the deal in our forum, there seems to be a proposal having a solid support. Basically, it would be like this: 1) 180 gold & your WM at the moment we deliver Edu (we shall discover Edu on - and this is now a solid ETA - our Turn 121, in 150BC, so you would receive it on your Turn 122, in 130 BC) 2) 50 gold at the moment we swap Banking and Astro (which we assume would be the next research goals for you and us) 20-turn or eternal NDAs (your choice) on all techs involved. So, the only difference compared to your proposal is 50 extra gold payable on the Bank/Astro switch (not really to balance the Bank/Astro switch itself, but to balance the deal as a whole). Would this be okay with you? If yes, I will send a paragraphed version at your request (just state your preference re: NDAs). Best regards, vondrack

	27-06-2003 18:41									#101
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quote: DeepO, quote: Sorry, very little time today at work, but it looks we'll be getting there. I'll post your message on our board, and see what the others think. I don't have clearance to accept this deal, it's above what we previously agreed to, so it's going to need another poll (Democracy, democracy, *sigh* ) No problem - as indicated by the Edu ETA in my previous PM, we do have a couple of turns to finalize the deal. No need for any prepayments, so as long as we agree on the terms at least on the turn we discover Edu (T121), there will be no delay. quote: You're right with the comparison to Feud, which was the same one we made: we asked 25% of the first researcher cost, which should become some 270 for Edu. However, as was so painfully proven, our deal only came with a 10-turn NDA, and made future trade possible... which is why we value Edu less. But, granted, we want Edu, and you were in no hurry to acquire Feud (well, you didn't either ). Precisely 275 gold . Keep in mind, please, that there is another difference of 96 beakers between Astronomy & Banking in our favour (would equal to 24 gold, using the 25% math, bringing the "total" to 299 gold), plus we haven't even tried to negotiate the price of or completely omit your WM from the trade. quote: If at all possible, I'd like to postpone the discussion on mutual profit after NDA for this weekend (Sunday chat?), we've got a couple of ideas, but nothing final yet, and would love to hear your take on things. Main idea is that we don't become competitors on techs which we cooperated on. However, we don't want to limit trade with other teams either... so eternal NDAs will probably be undesirable. For the moment, let's assume 20-turn classic NDAs. Fine with us. Using the term "eternal NDA" I meant any future resales would have to be negotiated separately - not that we would exclude the possibility of resales once forever. I can sure imagine there would be a situation you'd be able to strike a deal, while we would be not or vice versa - and it would of course be foolish to insist on NDAs then. quote: Thanks for the exact Eta, it will surely help in planning. Also here are some points we'd like to discuss on Sunday: a couple of times it was raised in our forum that faster research isn't always the best, certainly not when war would break out on Bob. Maybe we shouldn't speed along too fast (I received some comments from trying to speed research on edu, and indeed, while there are a number of advantages, there are also disadvs involved) This will most probably not be a major problem. We are not researching as fast as we could be anyway. We do realize that being too far ahead has its disadvantages, too. Best regards, vondrack

	30-06-2003 02:44									#102
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quote: Session Start: Sun Jun 29 22:21:03 2003 [22:21] } Successfully joined #TheJollyJumper at 10:21pm [22:33] {DeepO} welcome everyone [22:33] [10:33pm] {@vondrack} thanks [22:33] [10:33pm] {@nye-gone} *bounce* [22:33] {DeepO} anyone else who wants to join? [22:34] [10:34pm] {@nye-gone} hi again, vonD [22:34] [10:34pm] {@vondrack} not from my team - everybody gone for the weekend [22:34] [10:34pm] {@vondrack} hi again, nye [22:34] {DeepO} okay... I haven't heared from Arrian [22:34] {DeepO} I thought he was still unavilable this weekend [22:35] {DeepO} sorry.. just posting a message on our board [22:35] [10:35pm] {@nye-gone} i will be silent mostly. [22:35] [10:35pm] {@nye-gone} just along for the scenery [22:35] {DeepO} okay... first of all, I'd like to discuss the tech deal [22:35] [10:35pm] {@vondrack} ok [22:35] {DeepO} it seems we will be accepting your 230 gold offer [22:36] {DeepO} but... could we have on little consession for that? [22:36] [10:36pm] {@vondrack} and that would be? [22:36] {DeepO} there has been talk that you would be going for a wonder tech, while we were not [22:36] {DeepO} so, would it be possible to agree now that after Banking, we can go for econ [22:36] {DeepO} and you pick something else? [22:37] [10:37pm] {@vondrack} I believe that would be possible, yes [22:37] {DeepO} wonder techs are always nicer to sell to others [22:37] {DeepO} okay, thanks [22:37] {DeepO} in that case, I'll set up a formal message, to ratify for both teams [22:37] [10:37pm] {@vondrack} great [22:37] {DeepO} (on Monday) [22:37] {DeepO} no time now [22:37] [10:37pm] {@vondrack} ok, no problem [22:37] [10:37pm] {@vondrack} still few more turns to Edu [22:38] {DeepO} other then that, would you be interested in getting some kind of deal, so we don't compete to sell each others techs? [22:38] [10:38pm] {@vondrack} basically, yes... depends on what exactly you would like to agree on [22:38] [10:38pm] {@vondrack} we are no good in reselling other teams' techs... [22:39] {DeepO} a couple of ideas have been posted, one of which would simply be to give part of the revenue to the other team, if a sell occurs after NDA expire [22:39] {DeepO} well... it's not that we're such geniuses there, [22:39] {DeepO} but you already know that [22:39] [10:39pm] {@vondrack} LoL [22:39] {DeepO} this is still a very rough idea [22:39] {DeepO} so any input from your side would be greatly appreciated [22:39] [10:39pm] {@vondrack} I believe sharing the profit would be at least worth considering [22:40] {DeepO} well... we're still not recuperated from Feud [22:40] [10:40pm] {@vondrack} not competing in the "resale" market is in the interest of both of us [22:40] {DeepO} very true [22:40] {DeepO} and it might appear to others as we're not the best friends [22:40] {DeepO} which, in time, might also be beneficial [22:41] [10:41pm] {@vondrack} [22:41] {DeepO} one sec, Shiber is knocking [22:41] [10:41pm] {@vondrack} any idea about the share levels? [22:41] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User Shiber has been invited to: #TheJollyJumper [22:41] [10:41pm] *apolyton.net(@#TheJollyJumper)* DeepO invited Shiber into channel #TheJollyJumper. [22:41] [10:41pm] {@vondrack} percentages and such [22:41] [10:41pm] Shiber (w00t@bzq-196-189.red.bezeqint.net) has joined. «4 people» [22:41] [10:41pm] {Shiber} eek [22:41] {DeepO} hi there! [22:42] [10:42pm] {@nye-gone} hi [22:42] [10:42pm] {Shiber} a bit jollier in here than i expected [22:42] {DeepO} «vondrack» not sure [22:42] [10:42pm] {@vondrack} hi, Shiber! [22:42] [10:42pm] {Shiber} hi von! [22:42] {DeepO} as said, this is still very rough [22:42] {DeepO} Shiber, we were discussing possible resale policies [22:42] {DeepO} where we keep out of eachother's profit [22:42] [10:42pm] {Shiber} Thanks DeepO [22:42] [10:42pm] {@vondrack} sometimes it may be difficult to determine the "share" - imagine you "resale" for a tech... [22:42] *** Disconnected [22:51] *** Attempting to rejoin... Session Close: Sun Jun 29 22:51:48 2003 Session Start: Sun Jun 29 22:53:41 2003 [22:53] } Successfully joined #TheJollyJumper at 10:53pm [22:53] } Total People:4 Ops:3 Voices:0 [22:53] } Channel Modes: +si [22:53] } Created on Sunday, June 29th, 2003 at 10:27pm [22:53] [10:53pm] {@Shiber} It's my favorite ever IRC client. [22:53] {DeepO} phew [22:53] {DeepO} why does this always happen to me? [22:53] [10:53pm] {@Shiber} Runs on all Linuxes, there's also a (terrible) Windows port and probably a Mac port too [22:53] [10:53pm] {@nye-gone} rescued! [22:54] [10:54pm] {@Shiber} Yaaay! [22:54] [10:54pm] {@Shiber} He's back [22:54] [10:54pm] {@vondrack} hehe [22:54] {DeepO} sorry about that... [22:54] {DeepO} did I miss much? [22:54] {DeepO} last I heared was that you asked about percentage levels [22:54] [10:54pm] {@Shiber} Yes, we declared war [22:54] {DeepO} [22:54] [10:54pm] {@Shiber} And, umm, discovered, uhhhh, fission. [22:54] [10:54pm] {@nye-gone} just personal chit chat while we waited for you to escape from Vox's clutches [22:54] {DeepO} UN [22:54] {DeepO} thx [22:54] [10:54pm] {@vondrack} yup [22:54] [10:54pm] {@Shiber} From a goodie hut. [22:54] {DeepO} so, percentage: [22:55] {DeepO} nothing final yet [22:55] {DeepO} but 50% seems a good start [22:55] [10:55pm] {@vondrack} that sounds fair [22:55] {DeepO} even if we would need to somehow have a way of knowing how much other things are worth [22:55] [10:55pm] {@Shiber} According to my calculations, 50% is exactly half of the revenues. [22:55] {DeepO} e.g. we have lux to sell... [22:55] {DeepO} and how much is a lux worth? [22:56] [10:56pm] {@vondrack} we could try that for one or two techs to see if it's doable... [22:56] {DeepO} part of this means openness [22:56] {DeepO} in that we need to warn the other if negotiations are taking place [22:56] [10:56pm] {@vondrack} we could, also, put basically "eternal" NDAs and negotiate every resale separately [22:56] [10:56pm] {@vondrack} yes, of course [22:56] {DeepO} and this might proof to be a problem with our 'secret diplo' policy [22:57] {DeepO} eternal NDAs: true [22:57] {DeepO} another option [22:57] {DeepO} and maybe even better... [22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} whatever we decide to try, it will need some time to settle [22:57] {DeepO} well.. for the moment it doesn't need to hurry [22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} I am quite sure we cannot think of all possible nuances right now [22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} right, no hurry [22:58] {DeepO} I don't think we'll resale edu... [22:58] {DeepO} at least we're not planning to do this [22:58] {DeepO} and you might have all deals secured already [22:58] [10:58pm] {@vondrack} we would prefer if you didn't push too much for reselling it, yes [22:58] [10:58pm] {@vondrack} to be honest [22:58] {DeepO} np [22:58] [10:58pm] {@vondrack} not really [22:58] [10:58pm] {@vondrack} few deals prearranged, but not all of them [22:58] [10:58pm] {@nye-gone} the market is not so great, is it? [22:59] {DeepO} nobody even knows we're getting it from you, and we would prefer to keep it that way [22:59] [10:59pm] {@vondrack} hmph, the market is... hm... "weak" [22:59] {DeepO} not that it is a secret, but still... [22:59] {DeepO} do you feel like others are preparing for war? [22:59] [10:59pm] {@vondrack} yes [22:59] {DeepO} I mean, you mentioned the ND-GoW powersurge last chat [22:59] {DeepO} any idea why? [23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} I was talking about that with BigFree (RP) [23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} he was quite sure it was only because territory gains [23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} as Chivalry is not yet discovered [23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} so no upgrades [23:00] {DeepO} true... [23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} not sure, but I am quite positive there will be a war on Bob [23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} ND did something we did not expect [23:01] {DeepO} do you have a better idea who the parties will be? [23:01] {DeepO} what? [23:01] [11:01pm] {@vondrack} they offered an NAP to us [23:01] {DeepO} ah... [23:01] [11:01pm] {@Shiber} So far we've been getting the impression that there are no alliances or partied yet, but that may be wrong. [23:01] [11:01pm] {@vondrack} basically, they made sure we would stay out of the Bobian affairs [23:01] {DeepO} not sure... [23:01] [11:01pm] {@Shiber} vondrack: deja vu. [23:01] {DeepO} ND could try to protect their flanks [23:01] {DeepO} while they would be planning for war [23:02] [11:02pm] {@vondrack} so whoever it is they are going after, shoudl be on Bob [23:02] [11:02pm] {@vondrack} *should [23:02] {DeepO} ND, yes [23:02] {DeepO} but that's not all of Bob [23:02] [11:02pm] {@Shiber} ND is obviously paranoid. They may have discovered that GoW and RP are going to pile up on them, though we only heard denials from GoW. Anyway, Lego is not the only civ that was proposed a NAP by ND. [23:03] [11:03pm] {@vondrack} true - but that is all I know about what is going on Bob... [23:03] [11:03pm] {@vondrack} I guess they may be trying to make it a 1 on 1 affir [23:03] [11:03pm] {@vondrack} *affair [23:03] [11:03pm] {@vondrack} which would make sense [23:03] {DeepO} hmmm [23:03] {DeepO} don't know [23:04] {DeepO} it looks to me personally that all wars on Bob will be a 2-1 affair [23:04] [11:04pm] {@vondrack} honestly - we did little business with them (ND), but when we did, it was very pleasant [23:04] {DeepO} they're hard [23:04] [11:04pm] {@vondrack} hard to read, yes [23:05] {DeepO} but somehow, it seems they feel isolated on a 'poly game [23:05] {DeepO} part of that could come from too little chitchat [23:05] {DeepO} part of it could come from tension on Bob [23:05] [11:05pm] {@vondrack} hmmm... they are doing all they can to _remain_ isolated [23:05] [11:05pm] {@vondrack} agreed [23:05] {DeepO} true... [23:06] {DeepO} and we were rather unlucky in our deals with them, so we're not helping either [23:06] [11:06pm] {@vondrack} unlucky? [23:06] [11:06pm] {@vondrack} we were very lucky )) [23:06] {DeepO} well... about all their proposals we had to refuse [23:06] {DeepO} but how were you lucky? [23:06] [11:06pm] {@vondrack} got the map of Bob from them for 50 gold yeeeears ago... )) [23:07] [11:07pm] {@vondrack} was Darekill's mistake [23:07] {DeepO} aha [23:07] [11:07pm] {@vondrack} he misunderstood something we did [23:07] [11:07pm] {@vondrack} but they made no fuss about it - accepted it was their fault [23:07] {DeepO} what about RP: do you think they want to reamin peaceful? [23:07] {DeepO} not that it's likely they will... [23:08] {DeepO} but they might want [23:08] [11:08pm] {@vondrack} uhhh... I do not think it is a good idea to discuss RPers with me [23:08] [11:08pm] {@vondrack} I could get [23:08] [11:08pm] {@vondrack} eh... upset [23:08] {DeepO} ? [23:08] {DeepO} anything we should know? [23:08] {DeepO} we were rahter out of the loop... [23:08] [11:08pm] {@vondrack} nope... not really... just that we are constantly unable to trade with them [23:09] [11:09pm] {@vondrack} they never agree to a fair deal [23:09] {DeepO} okay... I hope we are easier [23:09] [11:09pm] {@vondrack} always trying to squeeze the very last gold piece... [23:09] [11:09pm] {@vondrack} yes, you are [23:09] [11:09pm] {@vondrack} that's why we are doing business with you now [23:09] {DeepO} well, let's keep this going [23:09] {DeepO} btw, if you want to know the reason we want to deal with you: [23:10] {DeepO} you're stable... Bob is not [23:10] {DeepO} and we need stability [23:10] [11:10pm] {@vondrack} I hope we will remain stable for some time [23:10] {DeepO} plus, there is little danger of you invading us [23:10] {DeepO} well, I hope this game will remain stable [23:10] [11:10pm] {@vondrack} hehehe... there is NO danger, actually [23:10] {DeepO} we feel like the tech race is an important race to win [23:11] [11:11pm] {@vondrack} but we feel very similir about you [23:11] {DeepO} but with wars, upgrade money, and other things to spend gold on, nobody is contributing [23:11] [11:11pm] {@vondrack} *similar [23:11] {DeepO} thanks [23:11] {DeepO} which brings me to another point: perhaps we shouldn't speed along in tech [23:11] {DeepO} I mean, we should try to keep the lead [23:12] [11:12pm] {@vondrack} define "speed along" [23:12] {DeepO} (well, actually, you have the lead now, but we can come close) [23:12] {DeepO} well.. perhaps we should deliberately delay research [23:12] [11:12pm] {@vondrack} yes, I know that [23:12] {DeepO} in order for the others to save gold, to give to us [23:13] [11:13pm] {@vondrack} this is difficult to set as a general policy [23:13] {DeepO} I know [23:13] [11:13pm] {@vondrack} sometimes, it is better to wait [23:13] [11:13pm] {@vondrack} sometimes, it's better to hurry [23:13] [11:13pm] {@vondrack} right, no need to explain [23:13] {DeepO} partt of this comes from our situation on Feud [23:13] {DeepO} we sped along [23:13] {DeepO} not only because we wanted to be first [23:14] {DeepO} also of course because it was a tech we could use at the time [23:14] {DeepO} buut in the end, it fell inbetween tech swaps [23:14] {DeepO} costing us a lot of money [23:14] {DeepO} (well, the cost was also because we failed to set up diplo well) [23:14] [11:14pm] {@vondrack} maybe, yes [23:14] {DeepO} maybe this is completely wrong [23:14] [11:14pm] {@Shiber} And RP shafted us there badly [23:14] [11:14pm] {@vondrack} RP? [23:15] {DeepO} but it feels like Edu has the same problem [23:15] {DeepO} because Bob will not spend money on a tech they use for peaceful building [23:15] {DeepO} if war is coming. [23:15] [11:15pm] {@Shiber} Yeah, they tried to get us into a bidding war against GoW and eventually got Feudalism from GoW for a very low price or for free. [23:15] {DeepO} «Shiber» only partly true [23:15] {DeepO} in that there was also a misunderstanding at stake [23:16] {DeepO} which was partly my fault... [23:16] {DeepO} if we go for the Astro/banking part [23:17] [11:17pm] {@nye-gone} well, i have to run guys. nice chatting with you vondrack. [23:17] {DeepO} it would be good for both of us if at that moment Bob has gold [23:17] [11:17pm] {@vondrack} take care, nye! [23:17] {DeepO} bye nye! [23:17] [11:17pm] {@nye-gone} bye [23:17] [11:17pm] nye-gone (notyoueith@h24-86-76-127.ed.shawcable.net) has parted. «3 people» [23:17] {DeepO} plus, there might be another problem: Leaders [23:17] [11:17pm] {@vondrack} that's true [23:18] [11:18pm] {@vondrack} as you sure know, leaders are what we dislike a lot [23:18] [11:18pm] {@vondrack} they are bad for building [23:18] {DeepO} at any rate, we feel like we should at least get the etas of astro and banking to coincide [23:18] {DeepO} true [23:18] {DeepO} sometimes they're nice though [23:18] [11:18pm] {@vondrack} just a sec [23:20] [11:20pm] {@vondrack} hmmm... a very rough estimate would be between 15 and 20 turns for Astro - depends on how much we will push it [23:20] {DeepO} after edu? [23:20] [11:20pm] {@vondrack} yes [23:20] {DeepO} because that was what we hoped for... [23:20] {DeepO} we can't delay much longer [23:20] {DeepO} but will need cash too... [23:21] {DeepO} would it be possible for Bobians to also do their research [23:21] {DeepO} so we can trade techs, instead of hoping for gold? [23:21] {DeepO} very little has been said to us about that, I think [23:21] [11:21pm] {@vondrack} maybe - but I think you best know what their GNPs are like [23:22] {DeepO} well... we do... [23:22] [11:22pm] {@vondrack} it's you, then a gap, then us, than a BIG gap, then the rest of the world [23:22] {DeepO} true [23:22] [11:22pm] {@vondrack} speaking about GNP [23:22] [11:22pm] {@vondrack} so - whatever they do, it will take forever [23:22] {DeepO} with the difference that we have a large military to support [23:22] [11:22pm] {@vondrack} true [23:22] {DeepO} and we'll need to keep that, as our continent isn't easily defended [23:23] [11:23pm] {@vondrack} that's why we may be close to each other now (re: research speed) [23:23] [11:23pm] {@vondrack} sorry to hear that [23:23] {DeepO} well, we think (rough idea) that ND is at 10% research now [23:23] [11:23pm] {@vondrack} could be [23:23] [11:23pm] {@vondrack} but GoW is probably researching [23:23] [11:23pm] {@Shiber} Or is using a single scientist [23:23] {DeepO} well, their ETA is after Vox... [23:23] {DeepO} GoW: yes, but for how long? [23:23] [11:23pm] {@vondrack} AFTER Vox?? [23:23] [11:23pm] {@vondrack} Jesus... [23:23] {DeepO} yes [23:24] {DeepO} so, that's 40-tuirn research... [23:24] {DeepO} well, this is only a guess [23:24] {DeepO} we did not hear this from them explicitely, nor did we ask [23:24] [11:24pm] {@vondrack} I see [23:25] {DeepO} but if this continues... we would be the only one researching [23:25] {DeepO} and if so, we have all reasons to not speed along too fast [23:25] {DeepO} even if we want to keep the lead [23:25] {DeepO} (both of us, of course) [23:25] [11:25pm] {@vondrack} agreed [23:26] {DeepO} the problem is, these are all guesses as long as we don't know what wars will break out [23:26] {DeepO} but I find it very hard to assume Bob will remain peaceful [23:26] [11:26pm] {@vondrack} me too [23:27] {DeepO} okay... anything elase you want ot discuss? [23:27] {DeepO} I'd like to get some sleep [23:27] {DeepO} (didn't get much this weekend) [23:27] {DeepO} and it's showing in my typing [23:28] [11:28pm] {@vondrack} nothing, I think - the Vox plan proceeds as planned [23:28] [11:28pm] {@vondrack} three turns to found their new capital [23:28] {DeepO} yes... even if I think we could use a bit closer planning with Vox [23:28] {DeepO} buut they are using some of our ideas, and are doing a fine job themselves [23:29] {DeepO} which is all we can ask for [23:29] [11:29pm] {@vondrack} right [23:29] {DeepO} if anything would come up, I'll keep you informed [23:29] [11:29pm] {@vondrack} ok, I will do the same [23:29] {DeepO} other then that, expect a message for the Edu-deal tomorrow [23:29] [11:29pm] {@vondrack} feel free to send me the tech trade draft tomorrow [23:29] [11:29pm] {@vondrack} yup [23:29] {DeepO} [23:30] {DeepO} in that case: sweet dreams [23:30] [11:30pm] {@vondrack} the Econ addition will be ok, I believe [23:30] {DeepO} thanks [23:30] [11:30pm] {@vondrack} same to you [23:30] [11:30pm] {@vondrack} take care [23:30] {DeepO} bye [23:30] [11:30pm] {@vondrack} sweet dreams, Shiber! [23:30] [11:30pm] {@vondrack} bye [23:30] {DeepO} (also to Shiber, who has likely fallen asleep) [23:30] [11:30pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has parted. «2 people» Session Close: Sun Jun 29 23:31:20 2003

	02-07-2003 03:49									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Hello Vondrack, I'm sorry this message got delayed, I couldn't get into 'poly yesterday, when I had time to write the draft. Further, even if it is a draft, we've ratified it. Normally, there shouldn't be any problem on your side, if there is, please let me know and I'll adjust, and ask for re-ratifying it in GS... quote: Lego-GS Education and future tech deal 1. Gathering Storm agrees to buy Education from Legoland, at the price of 230 gold + their World Map. The 230 gold and WM will be given to Lego as soon as this deal is ratified. Lego will give Education as soon as they discover it. 2. GS agrees to a 20-turn NDA on Education, a period during which they will not sell or give Education to any other team. Moreover, GS agrees to not selll this tech even after the NDA has expired, without consent from Legoland (and a possible discussion on shared profits) 3. Once education has been traded, GS will start researching Banking, while Legoland will start researching Astronomy. Once these techs are discovered, they will be swapped as equal (even if Astronomy is slightly more expensive). These techs also come with a 20-turn NDA. 4. Future discussion is needed to agree on a possible 'mutual profit' scheme for banking / astronomy, where the 20-tun NDA could be replaced with a more complicated agreement, in order to ensure both party's profit after NDAs would run out. 5. Further, future discussion is needed on the timing of these techs, so that both GS and Legoland have the best chance of distributing these techs after discovery. Possibly this will result in a common ETA for both techs, delayed from the fastest ETA (for one tech). 6. After Banking is discovered, GS has the right to start on Economics, where Lego promises to research something else. GS could waive this right later, if situations change. However, they will keep Legoland informed if this would happen, so that Lego can respond in time. 7. Both parties agree that the spirit of this agreement is most important, not the exact wording. If loopholes, or possible problems would appear later, negotiations should commence to try to iron out possible conflicts before they occur. I hope this fits your hopes of this deal, kind regards, DeepO

	07-07-2003 01:28									#104
	Tired of ads?

Just received a message from ZargonX, with the above treaty quoted and a very dry "signed, ZargonX".

my reply:

quote: Thanks ZargonX. I'll put it on the agenda, so that we pay you the gold and WM asap. BTW: I can't make it to the chat tonight, I'm dead tired and want to go to sleep... sorry about that. But of course, if there is anything you want to discuss, just send a message (or try to contact nye) Kind regards, DeepO

	07-07-2003 02:23									#105
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

GMT +2:00

quote: [00:14] Vondrack> just a question... [00:14] Shiber> shoot [00:14] vondrack> we will have Edu ready this turn or one turn later (Zargon made a stupid mistake last turn) [00:14] Shiber> congratulations [00:14] Shiber> oh yes, that good-for-nothing Zargon [00:15] Shiber> lol [00:15] vondrack> I guess you were supposed to send the payment "after the treaty was ratified" [00:15] vondrack> but we have not received anything yet [00:15] vondrack> even though there was at least one, maybe two turns... [00:15] Shiber> It's in our next turn thread, we will send it when we get the save [00:15] vondrack> ok, fine [00:15] vondrack> we will send Edu as soon as we have it then [00:16] vondrack> and one more bit of info: [00:16] vondrack> not sure if Voxes told you [00:16] Shiber> vondrack, we only recently received confirmation from your team that the deal has been ratified [00:17] Shiber> Yes, now I see that ZargonX sent a confirmation message "Signed, ZargonX" after we played the previous turn. [00:17] Shiber> Oh, sorry for interrupting you [00:18] vondrack> ah, ok... I did not know it was so recently... [00:18] vondrack> so: The New Voice [00:18] vondrack> we delayed its foundation by three turns (too many barbs around) [00:18] vondrack> so it will be founded [00:18] vondrack> on the next turn (122, I think) [00:19] vondrack> this turn, units move to the destination tile [00:19] vondrack> next turn, the city will be founded and handed over to Vox [00:19] Shiber> OK, that doesn't sound like it'll be a problem though. But thanks for letting me know. [00:20] vondrack> we have been able to bring in more escorts, so we do not expect any more delays now [00:20] vondrack> ok [00:20] vondrack> well - won't keep you any longer then [00:20] vondrack> good night! [00:20] Shiber> Barbs are rampant in Lego Land these days, I suppose [00:20] Shiber> OK, good night sweetie [00:20] vondrack> [00:20] vondrack> bye

	08-07-2003 16:56									#106
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Hello Vondrack, AFAIK you sent it as an unaccepted deal, at least that is how I read it in the turn thread. But we were absolutely not offended, so no apology is necessary. Not only did education come one turn before what we expected, but we are still building libraries, which means that we're better off if we now save cash, and rush towards banking later, running a deficit. I'm sure that in the end there will be no delay whatsoever. I read your chat with Shiber, and want to stress that we did send payment the moment we got the signed proposal back, I hope this didn't cause any delays on your side. I apologize for not being able to chat last Sunday, but I was really dead tired after a very busy weekend. Hopefully next Sunday, nothing comes up All the best, DeepO quote: Hello, DeepO! I was very surprised to see the GS' "counteroffer" to Education this turn. I would swear I sent Education to you as ACCEPTED on the previous turn, expecting you to accept it and send your payment in a "separate package"... if I messed up and sent Education as UNaccepted, then I profoundly apologize. I did not mean to - I really wanted to send it as accepted, to allow you to start researching Banking ASAP. Dunno what happened... we know we can trust your word 100%, so it was not meant to show any distrust or "cautiousness". Cheers, vondrack

	08-07-2003 18:10									#107
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Thanks Vondrack... 'poly indeed had her time of the month again last week I'm not sure if it was sent to Vox yet, but we ratified the last proposal nye and Vox worked out. At turn 128, Voxodus would be complete, with all Voxian troops off our continent, and onto Legos Minor. I hope you'll find them a better neighbour as we had As to the Colossus: Thanks, it will probably help in getting up to speed in research. We thought you were building it, but after seeing in chat you had no interest in starting your GA too soon, we decided to go on. I hope you weren't planning on building it yourselves at a later date! DeepO quote: Hello, DeepO, quote: AFAIK you sent it as an unaccepted deal, at least that is how I read it in the turn thread. But we were absolutely not offended, so no apology is necessary. Not only did education come one turn before what we expected, but we are still building libraries, which means that we're better off if we now save cash, and rush towards banking later, running a deficit. I'm sure that in the end there will be no delay whatsoever. I am really glad to hear that, I would feel pretty bad if whatever mistake I must have made sending you Edu caused any dealys. We had some doubts regarding the discovery of Education, but eventually things went just fine - and you were sent it on the very turn we finished our research. quote: I read your chat with Shiber, and want to stress that we did send payment the moment we got the signed proposal back, I hope this didn't cause any delays on your side. I apologize for not being able to chat last Sunday, but I was really dead tired after a very busy weekend. Hopefully next Sunday, nothing comes up It seems that ZargonX, who was supposed to send you the signed trade agreement back quite some time ago, had some troubles PMing it - Poly was having her days and it seems his first PM was either never actually sent or never reached you (you got only the second one - which I realized only after talking to Shiber). Nothing missed on Sunday - I do not think we had to much to talk about anyway. Just to keep you posted: The New Voice (the first Voxian refuge settlement on Legos Minor), has been founded this turn and offered as accepted to Vox Controli. And - congratulations to the completion of Colossus! Best regards, vondrack

	17-07-2003 17:42									#108
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Hi Vondrack, I'm sorry to have missed last chat on Sunday, I was on a party with my family, and totally forgot about it until it was way too late... I've been trying to get a hold of you in the evening ever since, but when I had time, 'poly was down... or at least I couldn't get in. I can't chat at work, it seems I don't have nearly as much problems during the day... I still want to arrange for a chat, it looks like a lot is going on in the world lately, which also affects us both (especially when it comes to trading away techs)... maybe we can compare notes on what we think is really happening on Bob, and learn from each other. If possible, I want to connect this evening, as tomorrow won't be posisble for me... would that suit you? If I can't get in, could we perhaps meet in a chat room outside of 'poly? cheers, DeepO

	17-07-2003 20:41									#109
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Great, that should be possible for me. If 'poly is having problems, I'll send an e-mail... DeepO quote: I will be leaving home for about two hours this evening, but we should be able to chat after I come back - either here at Poly or somewhere else. I am sure I will be available from about 8pm GMT onwards. Just send an email to vondrack@jimaz.cz - we can arrange something then. Cheers, vondrack

	18-07-2003 13:44									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Session Start: Thu Jul 17 20:59:45 2003 [20:59] } Successfully joined #LeuvenV at 8:59pm [20:59] } Total People:1 Ops:1 Voices:0 [20:59] } Channel Modes: + [20:59] } Created on Thursday, July 17th, 2003 at 8:59pm [20:59] *** Retrieving #LeuvenV info... [20:59] [8:59pm] DeepO sets mode: +s [20:59] [8:59pm] DeepO sets mode: +k laams [21:00] [9:00pm] DeepO sets mode: -s+p [21:00] [9:00pm] DeepO sets mode: -p+s [21:05] [9:05pm] DeepO sets mode: +n [21:05] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— [9:05pm] ERROR } 403: NO SUCH CHANNEL: +T [21:05] [9:05pm] DeepO sets mode: +t [22:02] [10:02pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has joined. «2 people» [22:02] [10:02pm] {vondrack} hello! [22:03] {DeepO} hi there! [22:03] «SirRalph in #GStalks at 10:03pm» threatening with da mighty conquistadore, deepO? [22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} just came home from a big shopping event ) [22:03] {DeepO} sorry Vondrack, was talking elsewhere too [22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} no problem [22:04] {DeepO} let me see if I can lure some of GS in here [22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} just gimme a shout when you are ready [22:05] {DeepO} okay... [22:05] {DeepO} sorry, had some business to tend to [22:05] [10:05pm] SirRalph (~sirralph@pD9E00C03.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined. «3 people» [22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} np [22:05] {DeepO} maybe someone will join later [22:05] {DeepO} [22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} hello, Sir Ralph! [22:05] [10:05pm] {SirRalph} hello [22:06] {DeepO} okay... let's get this started [22:06] [10:06pm] {vondrack} k [22:06] {DeepO} first of all, I'm sorry for missing last events [22:06] {DeepO} rl, and 'poly.. [22:06] [10:06pm] {vondrack} np [22:06] {DeepO} but I felt we needed to chat, certainly with th current war [22:06] {DeepO} main reason is that it means we won't have anyone buying techs [22:07] [10:07pm] {vondrack} true [22:07] [10:07pm] nye (notyoueith@h24-86-76-127.ed.shawcable.net) has joined. «4 people» [22:07] {DeepO} so... do we race along, taking a lead, or back off a little, saving cash? [22:07] [10:07pm] {nye} allo [22:07] [10:07pm] {vondrack} heya, nye! [22:07] [10:07pm] {nye} hi, vonD [22:08] {DeepO} largely this depends on what you want... [22:08] [10:08pm] {vondrack} we have not discussed that too much, but we lean towards racing along, I believe [22:08] {DeepO} we can use the cash, to be honest [22:08] {DeepO} okay [22:08] {DeepO} so do you have any idea of a favorable ETA? [22:08] [10:08pm] {vondrack} just as with you, once we have our land railroaded and arty stocked, we will feel safe [22:08] {DeepO} and do we want to keep techs from the others in the mean time? [22:08] {DeepO} true [22:09] {DeepO} (I mean to RR) [22:09] [10:09pm] {vondrack} if there is nothing they can offer, probably yes [22:09] {DeepO} that would include Vox, though... [22:09] {DeepO} not sure what your standing on that is [22:10] [10:10pm] {vondrack} you mean that we would not trade techs to them wither? [22:10] [10:10pm] {vondrack} *either [22:10] {DeepO} well.. we still consider them sort of a risk [22:10] {DeepO} given our history [22:10] [10:10pm] {vondrack} [22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} we hope for a different history ) [22:11] {DeepO} so... racing along, keeping techs should be some kind of mutual thing, ideally [22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} honestly - this is a bit difficult to generalize about [22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} as I said [22:11] {DeepO} ? [22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} as long as there is something we can get for our techs [22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} something valuable [22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} we are open for trade [22:12] {DeepO} like lux, or NAPs? [22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} but we seek something valuable in return [22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} like lux, yes [22:12] {DeepO} I can imagine... [22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} I do not care about NAPs too much [22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} you read my posts in the public forum [22:12] {DeepO} but who would you trade it from? [22:12] {DeepO} I did, and I agree [22:13] {DeepO} but don't want to say to much in public [22:13] {DeepO} last time, that left me nowhere, and damaged the group [22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} heh, right... [22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} I myself should sometimes better shut up [22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} excuse me - must go AFK for a couple of minutes [22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} brb [22:14] {DeepO} the problem is, that for the next 10 turns or so, it is very hard to see who would be stable enough on Bob [22:14] {DeepO} np... I'll try to arrange a couple of things [22:14] {DeepO} as NAPs don't mean much, there is no way of knowing where this war is going to end [22:15] {DeepO} it looks like RP is on the receiving end, so dealing with them is not so easily [22:15] {DeepO} but OTOH, they could very well get GoW or ND to backstab eachother [22:15] {DeepO} we feel very wary of trades for the moment [22:15] {DeepO} we have some lux deals laid out [22:16] {DeepO} and I don't think we'll likely get more... or others [22:16] {DeepO} also, we don't think a situation where Bob is divided in 2 civs is good for us [22:17] {DeepO} so we're trying to see how we can stabilize them [22:17] {DeepO} keep 3 civs on Bob, or at least have 2 battered up civs splitting the continent [22:17] {DeepO} but again... this is very tricky, and if possible, we would want to chat with you about where you want to go [22:18] {DeepO} so that we can adjust plans... [22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} ok, back - sorry for the interruption [22:24] {DeepO} np [22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} right, 3-civ Bob is best, agreed [22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} but that is not likely to happen [22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} one of them will go, sooner or later [22:25] [10:25pm] {vondrack} RPers made themsleves a target by never keeping their promises [22:25] {DeepO} yes... but we (Lego-GS) can perhaps time them going [22:25] {DeepO} true... [22:25] «nye in #GStalks at 10:25pm» deepo, can i ask vond a question? [22:25] [10:25pm] {vondrack} yes... at least, we can try [22:25] {DeepO} the thing is, do we want to? [22:25] [10:25pm] {nye} vonD, are there any conditions that Lego would intervene outside of Legoland? [22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} in the foreseeable future, NO [22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} we are bound by a treaty [22:26] [10:26pm] {nye} with both nd and gow? [22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} nope, just one of them [22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} but covers the whole of Bob [22:26] [10:26pm] {nye} it keeps you off bob entirely? [22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} yes [22:27] [10:27pm] {nye} wow. how long does it last? [22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} just a sec, must check that [22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} damn, I cannot - poly is down [22:27] {DeepO} again [22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} I think for like 30 turns at least [22:28] [10:28pm] {nye} it is ok. would you intervene after that? [22:28] [10:28pm] {nye} or be inclined to even look at the possibility [22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} maybe, maybe not - whatever I say now would be even less than "informal speculations" [22:29] [10:29pm] {nye} that is all it could be [22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} well, all that "builder stuff" is just plain nonsense, you know [22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} if we believe it is time to strike, we will [22:29] {DeepO} so.. you want to invade us? [22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} LoL [22:29] [10:29pm] {nye} ok. a 2 civ bob is a... concern [22:30] [10:30pm] {vondrack} sure - there is no treaty preventing us [22:30] [10:30pm] {nye} oh oh [22:30] [10:30pm] {vondrack} [22:30] [10:30pm] {nye} [22:30] {DeepO} I wonder, even if you have a 'no invading Bob' deal [22:30] «nye in #GStalks at 10:30pm» back to you, deepo [22:30] {DeepO} does that mean you are at extremely good grounds with that civ? [22:31] {DeepO} in that you would favour them over any of the others? [22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} well... if there is a 2 civ Bob, we would have to seriously consider our 'peacenik' strategy, that is for sure [22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} no, I would not say it that way [22:31] {DeepO} okay... so you wouldn't mind if we possibly intervened? [22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} it was a deal we made when there was an opportunity [22:31] {DeepO} (very hypotehtically speaking, of course) [22:32] [10:32pm] {vondrack} hmmm... that's a question I haven't anticipated, honestly... [22:32] {DeepO} well... we share concerns about a 2-civ Bob [22:32] {DeepO} and while there are a couple of options to keep them from getting there [22:33] {DeepO} war is one of them... [22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} I guess we would not feel any need to get involved [22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} though this is mostly my personal feeling [22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} this was never discussed in our forum [22:33] {DeepO} also not by e.g. giving loans to one team in need? [22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} ah, that's something different [22:33] {DeepO} well.. this is completely of the record here [22:34] {DeepO} this certainly is not something we are decided on [22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} no treaty prevents us from doing business with Bobians [22:34] {DeepO} but it would be my job as an ambassador to know what you think of this [22:34] {DeepO} business.. yes... but at what cost? [22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} well, let me put it this way: [22:34] {DeepO} and can we complement each other here [22:34] {DeepO} go ahead [22:35] [10:35pm] {vondrack} there is VERY little love between us and the team in danger [22:35] [10:35pm] {vondrack} but even if we do not like them, we do not like the idea of a 2-civ Bob either [22:35] {DeepO} it's not that we like RP... but it might be necessary [22:35] [10:35pm] {vondrack} so we may forget our dislikes temporarily [22:36] {DeepO} agreed... we're in the same situation, sort of [22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} and lend a hand if it improves the chances of a prolonged war of attrition on Bob [22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} yes, it seems so [22:37] {DeepO} well... I'm thinking on options here [22:37] {DeepO} one of them is to keep RP alive until we could trade Chivalry to them [22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} so - we may happen to end up helping, economically, a team that would normally be the last one to receive our help [22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} sigh [22:37] {DeepO} but in this case, they need money [22:37] {DeepO} I feel your pain [22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} yes, they do need money [22:38] [10:38pm] {nye} i must go. nice to see you vonD. [22:38] {DeepO} bye nye [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} take care, nye! [22:38] [10:38pm] nye (notyoueith@h24-86-76-127.ed.shawcable.net) has parted. «3 people» [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} have they contacted you, asking for help? [22:38] {DeepO} sort of... but not with too much fire [22:39] {DeepO} they know our relation, of course [22:39] {DeepO} did they contact you? [22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} yes, they did [22:39] {DeepO} it seems Togas is rallying all the help they can get [22:39] {DeepO} they probably contacted Vox as well [22:39] {DeepO} seeing if they can offer a loan [22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} [22:40] {DeepO} talking about options: the other option for us would be to go to Bob ourselves [22:40] {DeepO} but already, we're not easily defended [22:40] {DeepO} and we can miss any ganging up on us [22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} I doubt the time would be right NOW for you [22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} you could actually unite them against you [22:41] {DeepO} probably yes [22:41] {DeepO} although it is hard to see how good their relations are, even at war [22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} btw - have you sold your map to anyone else? [22:42] {DeepO} yes we did... [22:42] {DeepO} didn't I tell you? [22:42] {DeepO} I think you got the better deal, though [22:42] {DeepO} as you were one turn later [22:42] {DeepO} getting all the other maps as well [22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} hmmm... then they must know that you will, sooner or later, have to expand overseas [22:42] {DeepO} but I don't think you'r mind [22:42] {DeepO} you're right, but that was already clear in the beginning [22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} and they also know that your economy is WAY above theirs [22:43] {DeepO} as we said from the beginning, we have little land... [22:43] {DeepO} true [22:43] {DeepO} but we can't blame that Bob doesn't improve their land [22:43] {DeepO} be blamed [22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} re: map - I haven't realized we got other maps, too - focused on your land only [22:44] {DeepO} as you will have seen, our land is as we said: not very good, but well used [22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} true (re: no blame) [22:44] {DeepO} ah... [22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} yep, agreed [22:44] {DeepO} did you learn anything shockingly new? [22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} I would not say so [22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} new, yes [22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} shockingly new, no [22:45] {DeepO} okay.. so we were right in selling our map at that moment [22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} yes, you could put it that way [22:45] {DeepO} it still holds some value, but not too much [22:45] {DeepO} hey, but it was cheap [22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} [22:45] {DeepO} Vox: [22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} ok [22:46] {DeepO} they should have be gone next turn, if all's right [22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} yes, that's we have been told [22:46] {DeepO} right now (I'm not sure if you have the save yet) they have 1 city remaing [22:46] {DeepO} and a couple of troops on our territory [22:47] {DeepO} so next turn, you have a new neighbour [22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} [22:47] {DeepO} also, we kind of solved the upkeep question [22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} yeah, should be exiciting [22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} *exciting [22:47] {DeepO} by asking them to stay in anarchy for a while [22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} ? [22:47] {DeepO} lots of troops, little money [22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} ah, that's probably a good idea [22:48] {DeepO} just in case they're asking for money... you already give the land [22:48] {DeepO} so no need to sponsor them too hard [22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} LoL [22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} no worries [22:48] {DeepO} bah, right now Vox can't really touch us anymore [22:48] {DeepO} so we wish them the best, and hope to keep dealing with them [22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} right [22:49] {DeepO} which maybe can be done by giving them a 40-turn tech to research [22:49] {DeepO} of course, again in agreement with you [22:49] [10:49pm] {vondrack} yes, that's an idea we discussed with them [22:49] {DeepO} did you mention to any Bobian civ what you were going for? [22:49] {DeepO} we didn't, I think [22:49] [10:49pm] {vondrack} nope - nothing beyond what leaked in the public forum [22:50] {DeepO} but probably they are starting on 40-turn techs as well [22:50] {DeepO} okay... [22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} I would expect that (40t research), yes [22:50] {DeepO} how could we coordinate research to benefit us best? [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} with us or with them? [22:51] {DeepO} I mean coordinate Bob's research [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} hehe [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} no idea [22:51] {DeepO} we already know you goals [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} I expect GoW to go after Invention [22:51] {DeepO} with their GL prebuild? [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} yes [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} looks like a prebuild for Leo? [22:51] {DeepO} could be [22:52] {DeepO} buut they seem to be stalling it [22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} would make sense [22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} even stalling would make sense [22:52] {DeepO} did you have agreements for Sistine with all of them? [22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} in a way [22:52] {DeepO} as long as you're not lossing shields, yes [22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} I do not think I am at liberty to answer your last question [22:52] {DeepO} but when war breaks out? we wouldn't do it as a militaristic civ [22:53] {DeepO} okay, no prob [22:53] {DeepO} I could always ask [22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} yes, of course [22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} well, ND would bear the brunt of the RP counteroffensive (if there was any) [22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} so GoW may keep prebuilding... [22:53] {DeepO} don't know... [22:54] {DeepO} it depends on naval activities [22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} since they are not directly threatened [22:54] {DeepO} remember Inchon? [22:54] {DeepO} (not to brag, mind you) [22:54] {DeepO} but we gave them the idea [22:54] {DeepO} we fear... [22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} that was over a distance that was MUCH shorter [22:54] {DeepO} not really [22:55] {DeepO} but it was easier because of sea waters we could use, avoiding spotting [22:55] {DeepO} on coastal waters [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} yeah [22:55] {DeepO} once they have astro... it's basically the same [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} and where would they get Astro [22:56] {DeepO} well.. hence my question [22:56] {DeepO} it might be one of the tings you could support them with [22:56] {DeepO} buut I'm not sure if it is wanted [22:56] {DeepO} (of course, it also threatens us too) [22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} ATM, that (Astro) is not a subject of any negotiations [22:57] {DeepO} okay, that's good to hear [22:57] {DeepO} so... what about etas for our techs? [22:58] {DeepO} if we or you want to support RP with money, we need to delay tech trading [22:58] {DeepO} right now, we spend a bit of money on rushing some buildings in place [22:58] [10:58pm] {vondrack} 10 or 11 turns for us on Astro, I think [22:58] {DeepO} and IIRC, we could have banking in 8 or so turns, but would prefer a bit later [22:59] {DeepO} 11 turns seem a good start... [22:59] [10:59pm] {vondrack} ok [22:59] {DeepO} come to think of it, we might need a more rigid deal if we want to race ahead [23:00] {DeepO} I mean, 20 turn NDA won't be enough [23:00] [11:00pm] {vondrack} true [23:00] {DeepO} if we don't want to start distrusting each other [23:00] {DeepO} and we don't want that [23:00] [11:00pm] {vondrack} I think I did mention that we would be ok with eternal NDAs [23:00] {DeepO} yes... but those also have problems [23:00] {DeepO} it's not that we anticipate us ever declaring war on you, but you never know [23:01] {DeepO} and... even in war, our code would prevent us from reselling [23:01] {DeepO} hmmm... tricky... [23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} feel free to come up with whatever suits you best [23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} we are not really in the reselling business that much [23:02] {DeepO} us neither [23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} more in the researching bsusiness [23:02] {DeepO} but again, you never know what happens [23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} though still way behind yourself [23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} yes, agreed [23:02] {DeepO} I don't think so [23:02] {DeepO} I mean Re: researching speed [23:02] {DeepO} we still lack a couple of buildings... [23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} but with "eternal NDAs" - you can always renegotiate on case by case basis [23:03] {DeepO} agree [23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} it is just that you do not need to worry about the NDA running out [23:03] {DeepO} which eventually it may lead to anyway [23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} which is the case with GoW ATM, e.g. [23:03] {DeepO} also Re: chivalry? [23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} ? [23:04] {DeepO} I mean, do you have an eternal NDA on Chiv? [23:04] [11:04pm] {vondrack} nope [23:04] {DeepO} aha [23:04] {DeepO} I feared we were the only one able to sell it to RP [23:05] {DeepO} Ah, I see... I missed one of your sentences above [23:05] {DeepO} sorry about the confusion [23:05] [11:05pm] {vondrack} np

	18-07-2003 13:44									#111
	Remove this text

continued...

quote: [23:05] [11:05pm] {vondrack} hey! I just spotted something! [23:05] {DeepO} ? [23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} I have the latest save loaded in the background [23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} checking things as we talk [23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} we can trade! [23:06] {DeepO} so... I was right all along! [23:06] {DeepO} that should be the lighthouse at work... [23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} that must be the harbour of Zargonia + The Great Lighthouse [23:06] {DeepO} care for a lux-lux trade? [23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} we finished the harbour last turn [23:06] {DeepO} aha... cool! [23:07] [11:07pm] {vondrack} well, we have only one lux, but if you are interested, we will go for it, of course [23:07] [11:07pm] {vondrack} (dyes) [23:07] {DeepO} oh, sure, we can always use lux [23:07] {DeepO} I'll have to check, but I think you have the choice: incense or furs [23:08] {DeepO} maybe even both... [23:08] {DeepO} (not against your dyes only, of course) [23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} I think simple 1lux for 1lux would be the way to go ATM [23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} we are not really drowning in money ATM [23:08] {DeepO} which would be fine for us, I'm sure [23:08] {DeepO} okay, I understand [23:09] {DeepO} but neither are we [23:09] [11:09pm] {vondrack} and with the RP begging for gold... [23:09] [11:09pm] {vondrack} right [23:09] {DeepO} maybe some further rules: [23:09] [11:09pm] {vondrack} yes? [23:09] {DeepO} to try to get a proposal going [23:09] {DeepO} we consider lux-lux trades as indefinate [23:09] {DeepO} in that we don't keep to 20-turn rules [23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} fine with us [23:10] {DeepO} but... in case we would cancel a deal, we give teams a 1-turn warning [23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} ok [23:10] {DeepO} just so no cities go into disorder [23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} good [23:10] {DeepO} if that suits you, I'll try to get a PM going [23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} yes, sounds like a deal [23:11] {DeepO} and you could offer furs this turn, [23:11] [11:11pm] {vondrack} dyes? [23:11] {DeepO} so that we don't deny each other the lux [23:11] {DeepO} sorry, dyes [23:11] [11:11pm] {vondrack} ok [23:11] {DeepO} hey, that was an easy deal [23:11] {DeepO} it took us about 2 minutes [23:12] [11:12pm] {vondrack} yeah, you're a pushover... [23:12] {DeepO} sorry about that [23:12] [11:12pm] {vondrack} LoL [23:12] {DeepO} I hope 'poly is up again, so we can finalize this in our forum asap [23:13] {DeepO} I mean, there won't be any problem, but it has to be ratified by the team [23:13] [11:13pm] {vondrack} ok, I will post about it in our forum, too [23:13] {DeepO} great [23:13] [11:13pm] {vondrack} same with us [23:13] {DeepO} anything else? [23:13] [11:13pm] {vondrack} prolly not [23:13] {DeepO} I'm a getting a bit empty here [23:13] [11:13pm] {vondrack} ok, let's get some sleep then [23:14] {DeepO} fine... I hope to see you soon [23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} give our best regards to your people [23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} take care [23:14] {DeepO} and I hope I'll get back to my Sundays [23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} [23:14] {DeepO} sweet dreams! [23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} you too [23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} bye Session Close: Thu Jul 17 23:14:36 2003

	18-07-2003 19:42									#112
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Hello Vondrack, I hope this gets to you in time (i.e. before 'poly crashes down again ): a more formal agreement on our lux-lux trade. It includes the 'special' conditions of the trade, as mentioned in last chat. If any of this does not suit you, please let me know, and we can regenotiate. (although it may be best to contact either Arrian or nye in that case, I will probably not be able to respond for at least the next 24h) [quote] 1. Legoland and Gathering Storm agree to a mutual luxury deal. Legoland will provide dyes, getting GS's furs in return (if you rather want incense, let us know). 2. This deal is considered indefinate, and is not bound to the 20-turn limits PtW defines. 3. Both teams are free to cancel the deal at any turn, for whatever reason (which they are free to state). However, if this deal gets canceled, the cancelling team should warn the other team one turn ahead, so they can prepare for the loss of happiness in their cities, avoiding any of these to fall into disorder. 4. As always, the spirit of this agreement is more important then its exact wording, in case any doubts arise, renegotiation between the teams should occur Ratified by Gathering Storm[.quote] kind regards, DeepO

	21-07-2003 02:28									#113
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Vondrack,

thanks for the deal, I'm sure we will enjoy the dyes (Aeson was asking about orange ones ) Furs will be on their way as we speak.

As for the chat: I wanted to contact you, I'm currently still busy reading our forum, and want to get up to date before chatting with you. Would it be possible to chat tomorrow, perhaps? I've got a free day, so I'll be available until late tonight, but still have several pages to read... and the discussion has been swining greatly, so I don't know our official stance for the moment. Don't want to give you any wrong ideas...

kind regards,
DeepO

quote: Hello, DeepO! I guess the chat we had earlier this week has replaced the Sunday chat that would otherwise be held today... I have sent the save on to your team a couple of minutes ago. Offered dyes, as promised. I assume you'll counter with furs and we will seal the deal on the next turn. Here goes the signed lux trade agreement: quote: quote: 1. Legoland and Gathering Storm agree to a mutual luxury deal. Legoland will provide dyes, getting GS's furs in return. 2. This deal is considered indefinate, and is not bound to the 20-turn limits PtW defines. 3. Both teams are free to cancel the deal at any turn, for whatever reason (which they are free to state). However, if this deal gets canceled, the cancelling team should warn the other team one turn ahead, so they can prepare for the loss of happiness in their cities, avoiding any of these to fall into disorder. 4. As always, the spirit of this agreement is more important then its exact wording, in case any doubts arise, renegotiation between the teams should occur Ratified by Gathering Storm Signed on behalf of Legoland, vondrack, the FAM

	21-07-2003 02:45									#114
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: No problem, DeepO, just PM me any time tomorrow. Good night, vondrack

	21-07-2003 16:45									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Hi Vondrack, do you have time to chat now? I'd very much like to do this before another team gets the save, a lot has changed the past few hours and I'd love to hear your opinions on this... I'm trying to get into the poly server, without much luck for the time being. Which is why I don't know if you're present there or not (haven't contacted you on a workday before, so I don't know if you are occupied) DeepO

	21-07-2003 17:04									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Thanks Vondrack I'm still trying to get in... for some reason or another, I always have loads of trouble connecting to apolyton.net If this keeps up for anotherr 10 minutes, could we perhaps meet somewhere else? DeepO quote: Hi, DeepO! I am ready to chat. Waiting in the lobby (main Apolyton IRC chatroom). Cheers, vondrack

	21-07-2003 17:35									#117
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Session Start: Mon Jul 21 14:04:09 2003 [14:04] } Successfully joined #blabla at 2:04pm [14:04] } Total People:1 Ops:1 Voices:0 [14:04] } Channel Modes: + [14:04] } Created on Monday, July 21st, 2003 at 2:05pm [14:04] *** Retrieving #blabla info... [14:04] [2:04pm] DeepO sets mode: +nps [14:04] [2:04pm] DeepO sets mode: +k boemboem [14:04] -} *Vondrack* I'm in! [14:05] -} *Vondrack* Please join #blabla , pwd = boemboem [14:06] [2:06pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has joined. «2 people» [14:06] [2:06pm] {vondrack} hello! [14:06] {DeepO} hello there! [14:06] {DeepO} thanks you could make it in such short notice [14:06] {DeepO} but I think it will interest you... [14:06] [2:06pm] {vondrack} no problem - I am working from home [14:07] [2:07pm] {vondrack} ok, go ahead [14:07] {DeepO} ah, okay [14:07] {DeepO} the past few days, we have been discussing how to help RP [14:07] {DeepO} and stabilize Bob. [14:07] {DeepO} as we didn't want to give them money, [14:07] {DeepO} and after seeing their military situation (at least to as far as they want to disclose it) [14:08] {DeepO} we decided to intervene... [14:08] {DeepO} we currently have the 2 cities in our position that were most threatened by Nd and GoW [14:08] {DeepO} if they attack us, we go to Bob [14:08] [2:08pm] {vondrack} you mean possession? [14:08] {DeepO} not sure how it will move after that [14:08] {DeepO} yes... they were gifted by RP [14:08] {DeepO} they were certain losses [14:08] [2:08pm] {vondrack} ah, I see [14:09] [2:09pm] {vondrack} which ones? [14:09] {DeepO} Santiago on the ND side [14:09] {DeepO} and Bilbao on the GoW side [14:09] [2:09pm] {vondrack} hmmm... we were offered Santiago and Leon, IIRC [14:09] {DeepO} Leon? [14:09] [2:09pm] {vondrack} I think so [14:09] {DeepO} strange... but it could be that this will continue [14:10] [2:10pm] {vondrack} let me check [14:10] {DeepO} did you accept? [14:10] {DeepO} thanks [14:10] [2:10pm] {vondrack} nope [14:10] [2:10pm] {vondrack} we cannot [14:10] [2:10pm] {vondrack} (treaty obligations) [14:10] {DeepO} ah, yes [14:10] {DeepO} forgot about that [14:10] {DeepO} actually, we never agreed to not go to Bob [14:10] {DeepO} but there are treatie(s) in place [14:11] {DeepO} can't disclose them, but it will be interested if they get broken [14:11] [2:11pm] {vondrack} yes, Santiago and Leon it was [14:11] {DeepO} Bilbao is a certain loss, but it will autoraze if attacked [14:12] {DeepO} we're mighty curtious to see if GoW would do it [14:12] {DeepO} ND we kind of expect to attack us [14:12] {DeepO} I want to stress that this should not hamper other plans [14:12] {DeepO} I mean, for the moment, we're still on par with research [14:13] [2:13pm] {vondrack} ok [14:13] {DeepO} at least that's what we hope [14:13] [2:13pm] {vondrack} btw - no problem, if you slow down a bit [14:13] {DeepO} well... one or 2 turns could work [14:13] {DeepO} it would help, of course [14:13] {DeepO} but our larger goal still is to speed along in research [14:13] [2:13pm] {vondrack} we do not need Banking on the very same turn we finish Astro [14:14] [2:14pm] {vondrack} so - feel free to set the pace that suits you best [14:14] {DeepO} okay, that's nice [14:14] {DeepO} thanks! [14:14] [2:14pm] {vondrack} hmmm... this is big news, it really is [14:14] {DeepO} if I can ask, does this 'invasion' of Bob worry you? [14:15] {DeepO} well, we wanted to let you know before uyou would find out on the public forum [14:15] [2:15pm] {vondrack} well, at least, it is something we have to consider thoroughly [14:15] [2:15pm] {vondrack} my first impression would be 'worried', yes [14:15] {DeepO} main goal is to stablize Bob, and how the RP situation looked, it was a lost cause [14:15] {DeepO} I can imagine... sorry about that [14:15] [2:15pm] {vondrack} though there are so many consequences that we will have to mull them over a bit [14:16] {DeepO} buut we needed to do something, or we would be facing a 2-civ Bob in less then 10 turns [14:16] [2:16pm] {vondrack} if you believe it is the best way, there certainly must be good reasons to do so [14:16] {DeepO} please contact me whenever you want more info [14:16] [2:16pm] {vondrack} ok, I will [14:16] {DeepO} well... it seems RP was defending our coast as well [14:16] [2:16pm] {vondrack} thanks for the heads-up [14:16] {DeepO} and so have verry few defenders in place [14:17] [2:17pm] {vondrack} did they submit any evidence of what they say? [14:17] {DeepO} we've seen screenshots, yes [14:17] [2:17pm] {vondrack} ok [14:17] {DeepO} otherwise I don't think we would have gone for it [14:17] [2:17pm] {vondrack} right, yes [14:17] {DeepO} and as much as we distrust RP [14:17] {DeepO} we don't think they will doctor screenies [14:18] [2:18pm] {vondrack} I wonder why is their powergraph so mighty then? [14:18] {DeepO} amount of cities... [14:18] {DeepO} plus, they have a large number of troops [14:18] {DeepO} but those are spread out [14:18] {DeepO} and can't defend adequately against 3-move UUs [14:19] [2:19pm] {vondrack} yeah, that's true - they have overstretched big time [14:19] [2:19pm] {vondrack} pure greed, I would say [14:19] {DeepO} in hindsight, they needed to defend our coast [14:19] {DeepO} indeed (to the greed) [14:19] {DeepO} of course, we will not do this for nothing [14:19] {DeepO} we might end up with a couple of cities in RPs land [14:19] [2:19pm] {vondrack} oh? you will not??? [14:19] [2:19pm] {vondrack} [14:19] {DeepO} well... stablisation is one point [14:20] {DeepO} but we're not foolish either [14:20] {DeepO} as you said before, we need to have some expansion [14:20] {DeepO} buut for the moment, all territory discussion revolve around one point: [14:20] {DeepO} we take territory which makes us safer [14:20] {DeepO} meaning we avoid RP having 1-turn crossings to Stormia [14:21] {DeepO} what we will get will be horribly corrupt, though [14:21] [2:21pm] opd (~dwyerowen@82-36-92-149.cable.ubr04.harb.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined. «3 people» [14:21] {DeepO} hi opd [14:21] [2:21pm] {opd} lo [14:21] [2:21pm] {vondrack} hello! [14:21] {DeepO} I just told Vondrack about us getting a couple of cities [14:21] [2:21pm] {vondrack} does this include New Madrid? [14:22] {DeepO} perhaps... not for the moment [14:22] [2:22pm] {opd} cool [14:22] {DeepO} but we might need it if we are going to land troops [14:22] {DeepO} and take on one of the other teams... [14:22] {DeepO} discussion is still on-going [14:23] {DeepO} and we're not looking to become one of 2-civ Bob [14:23] {DeepO} if forced... well... who can say [14:24] [2:24pm] {vondrack} well, not much else to say ATM, I guess [14:24] [2:24pm] {vondrack} I have to take this to the team [14:24] {DeepO} yes, please do [14:24] {DeepO} but keep us informed of what you think [14:24] {DeepO} we highly value your opinions [14:24] {DeepO} and will proceed according to them [14:25] [2:25pm] {vondrack} ATM, just one thing: [14:25] [2:25pm] {vondrack} be WARY of RPers [14:25] {DeepO} [14:25] [2:25pm] {opd} how do you mean? [14:25] [2:25pm] {vondrack} 'accusations' read in the public forum were not based on nothing [14:25] [2:25pm] {vondrack} they promised help right and left [14:26] {DeepO} Vox? [14:26] [2:26pm] {vondrack} never kept their word [14:26] {DeepO} the point is, we can't let this happen [14:26] [2:26pm] {vondrack} understood [14:26] {DeepO} the only other option would have been to attack RP [14:26] {DeepO} but gangin up on an already won war... not our style [14:26] [2:26pm] {vondrack} all I say is: stay vigilant... [14:26] [2:26pm] {opd} have they broken their word to you before? [14:26] {DeepO} at least this will make it interesting [14:27] [2:27pm] {vondrack} opd - I could not formulate it this way, no [14:27] {DeepO} Do you have more info on Vox? [14:27] {DeepO} as we would want them to understand this as well [14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} with Beta gone for vacations, our contact are sparse these days [14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} the game is slow anyway [14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} we expect their arrival at Legos Minor [14:28] {DeepO} yes, but heated [14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} yup [14:28] {DeepO} next turn, everything should be ready [14:28] {DeepO} we made the final step this turn [14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} ok then [14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} I will report to my team [14:28] [2:28pm] {vondrack} and let you know if there is anything [14:29] {DeepO} ok, thanks for hearing us out! [14:29] [2:29pm] {vondrack} worth further discussion [14:29] {DeepO} very true [14:29] {DeepO} we'll leave you to work, then [14:29] [2:29pm] {vondrack} my pleasure - and thanks for keeping us informed [14:29] [2:29pm] {vondrack} [14:29] [2:29pm] {vondrack} have a nice... errr, I mean: take care [14:29] [2:29pm] {vondrack} [14:29] {DeepO} [14:29] {DeepO} bye [14:29] [2:29pm] {vondrack} bye [14:29] [2:29pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has parted. «2 people» [14:29] {DeepO} opd, I have a log [14:30] {DeepO} will post it shortly [14:30] {DeepO} see you in the forum, then [14:30] {DeepO} bye Session Close: Mon Jul 21 14:30:42 2003

	28-07-2003 02:38									#118
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: [22:37] [10:37pm] Kloreep (~ben@66-90-194-60.grandecom.net) has joined. «3 people» [22:37] [10:37pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has joined. «4 people» [22:37] {DeepO} hi there! [22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} hello! [22:37] [10:37pm] {Kloreep} Hi! [22:37] {DeepO} and welcome [22:37] {DeepO} our eye is already present [22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} ) [22:37] {DeepO} are more people joining, or can we start? [22:38] [10:38pm] Sharpe (Sharpe@dhcp-0-7-e9-cf-5a-ad.cpe.mountaincable.net) has joined. «5 people» [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} I think we can start [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} NOW [22:38] {DeepO} hi [22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} [22:38] {DeepO} [22:38] {DeepO} well, my main agenda point for tonight is to find out what you guys think about our involvement on Bob [22:38] {DeepO} I hope you had time to discuss it since last time... [22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} hmmm... good luck then [22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} not really [22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} with Poly going down very frequently [22:39] {DeepO} ah, that's true [22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} we havenůt had the grand chat we were planning for [22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} but we used the forum a bit [22:39] {DeepO} okay... so any intermediate points then? [22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} not sure how and where to start... [22:39] {DeepO} just shoot... [22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} let's say we are not overly excited about RPers handing you one city after another... [22:40] {DeepO} I can imagine that [22:40] {DeepO} but... that's only temporary [22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} temporary? [22:41] {DeepO} at least we hope... [22:41] {DeepO} yes. they needed a shorter defense line [22:41] {DeepO} they have that for the moment [22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} so, you plan to give them back to RP? [22:41] {DeepO} I don't think more cities will follow [22:41] {DeepO} indeed... although the specifics have to be decided later [22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} I see [22:42] {DeepO} don't forget, our main reason for presence is stablization [22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} what was that with Inchon? [22:42] {DeepO} ah... sorry, can't comment on that for the moment [22:42] {DeepO} a bit too strategic [22:42] {DeepO} in a few turns, I'm sure it can get into the open [22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} ok [22:43] {DeepO} did you tell GoW or ND about Inchon? [22:43] {DeepO} they shuoldn't have noticed it... [22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} nope, I do not think so [22:43] {DeepO} thanks [22:43] [10:43pm] Aeson (~aeson@dpc6682047049.direcpc.com) has joined. «6 people» [22:43] {DeepO} Hi aeson [22:43] {DeepO} we're just starting... [22:43] [10:43pm] {Aeson} hello [22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} hello, Aeson! [22:44] {DeepO} our main concern is to keep RP and GoW from overrunning RP [22:44] {DeepO} and it seems, so far everything is going according to plan [22:44] {DeepO} buut I can easily see how this is worrying for you guys [22:44] [10:44pm] {Aeson} hi vondrack [22:45] {DeepO} so, as much as possible, we would like to keep you informed [22:45] {DeepO} but please understand we can't spoil too much strategic info... [22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} np [22:45] {DeepO} are you still commited on keeping RP in the game? [22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} yes, I think we could say that so [22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} though - it does depend on what "keeping in the game" actually means [22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} we do not have any other Legos Minor... [22:46] {DeepO} please explain? [22:47] {DeepO} ah, no of course [22:47] [10:47pm] {Sharpe} Two questions: what are GoW doing with their forces in the east and what is happening with RP's iron situation now that they have lost Vigo [22:47] {DeepO} we have iron enough... buut nothing is decided when and if we're going to give it to them [22:47] {DeepO} we will not hold it from them [22:47] {DeepO} but maybe a period of ironless RP is better for them [22:48] {DeepO} I think that's more their decision, so can't really comment on that [22:48] {DeepO} GoW: [22:48] {DeepO} this turn, they 'invaded' our territory near Bilbao [22:48] {DeepO} they haven't attacked us, but well... they are in our territory now [22:48] [10:48pm] {Sharpe} I suspect we are going to be seeing the Battle for Zaragoza for a while [22:49] {DeepO} don't know [22:49] {DeepO} that will depend on ND [22:49] {DeepO} if we can keep GoW away from Zara [22:49] {DeepO} it should become a bloody battle [22:49] {DeepO} and not a rush [22:49] {DeepO} but nothing is certain here... [22:50] [10:50pm] {Kloreep} ND could also push toward Pamplona... assuming Pamplona doesn't have walls, it's the same defense bonus. [22:50] {DeepO} to be honest, we played most of our cards, the ball is in GoW's field now [22:50] [10:50pm] {Sharpe} I was suspecting that they might be trying to get RP's only horse [22:50] {DeepO} Pamplona is another option... but again, without GoW, it will become bloody [22:50] {DeepO} which is still an option (horse) [22:51] {DeepO} and we don't have spare horses to give out [22:51] {DeepO} atm, the war is very undecided [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} is it? [22:51] {DeepO} which is all we could have done [22:51] {DeepO} yes... it can turn both sides [22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} the RP losses is the West seem to be quite significant... [22:52] {DeepO} well... that was lost anyway [22:52] {DeepO} they have overstretched big time [22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} agreed [22:52] {DeepO} and couldn't defend it all [22:52] [10:52pm] {Sharpe} I can't believe RP didn't defend the west better, we suspected ND would invade via there [22:52] {DeepO} now, they have a chance, even without direct military help from us [22:52] {DeepO} true, but they also have an East to worry about [22:53] {DeepO} as long as GoW doesn't attack us, their East is safe... [22:53] [10:53pm] {Sharpe} are you going after ND directly due to their attack against you? [22:53] {DeepO} and frankly, we were the only ones who would be so big a deterrent that they even hesitate to attack us [22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} do you have any military presence on Bob? [22:54] {DeepO} well, we are at war... and they started it. [22:54] {DeepO} sorry, can't disclose that for now [22:55] {DeepO} it's a bit frustrating for me that I have to keep this kind of info from you [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} ) [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} yeah [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} your agenda seems to be [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} to make us feel comfortable [22:55] {DeepO} I trust you fully, but we can't risk any of this leaking to ND-GoW... [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} without telling us anything... [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} np [22:55] {DeepO} well, you should be comfortable... [22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} even no answers are answers... [22:56] {DeepO} it's true, I'm sorry if this is also frustrating for you [22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} no problem... let me put it this way: [22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} for us, the 'Bobian agenda' is actually equal [22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} to maintaining the balance of power there [22:57] {DeepO} us = GS + Lego? [22:57] {DeepO} ah, yes [22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} as long as there is a balance of power there [22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} we are not likely to intervene [22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} once the balance is gone or shifts to where we would not be happy about it [22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} we will be likely to intervene [22:58] {DeepO} of course, no problems [22:58] {DeepO} but... if we hadn't intervened, the balance would have shifted biig time [22:58] [10:58pm] {vondrack} true [22:58] {DeepO} and we would have become the smallest civ, after Vox [22:58] {DeepO} which is why I hope you wouldn't mind if in the end, we get a bit of territory on Bob [22:59] {DeepO} nothing fancy, though [22:59] [10:59pm] {vondrack} define "a bit", please [22:59] [10:59pm] {Sharpe} err it is not likely that you would become the smallest civ ... [22:59] {DeepO} and again, this will depend on the Bobian teams [22:59] {DeepO} small: a couple of cities, strategically important to us [22:59] {DeepO} to keep us safe. [23:00] {DeepO} oh, and Sharpe: we're already becoming smaller [23:00] [11:00pm] {Aeson} only 205 tiles on Stormia (DeepO is talking 'potential') [23:00] {DeepO} our territory is about the smallest there is [23:00] {DeepO} indeed [23:00] {DeepO} in the long term, of course [23:01] {DeepO} and nearly 800 on Bob? [23:01] {DeepO} buut again, if ND makes this into a holy war [23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} I believe you understand that we are not going to 'approve' or 'disapprove' your plans re: Bob - first, you do not need our approval to carry them out [23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} second [23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} there is little that can be said without knowing specifics [23:02] {DeepO} it's not so much about approval [23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} "a couple of strategically important cities" is a broad term... [23:02] {DeepO} as it is in keeping all options from you [23:02] {DeepO} hmm, true [23:02] [11:02pm] {Aeson} 655 on Bob IIRC [23:02] {DeepO} ah, ok [23:02] [11:02pm] {Aeson} or something in the area [23:02] {DeepO} you see, nothing is set in stone yet [23:03] {DeepO} which means we can't say exactly what we will get from this war [23:03] {DeepO} and... even if we shifted the balance back to the middle again [23:03] [11:03pm] nbarclay (~nbarclay@rbn1-216-180-19-143.adsl.hiwaay.net) has joined. «7 people» [23:03] {DeepO} this war is long from being over [23:03] {DeepO} hi Nathan [23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} hello, Nathan! [23:04] [11:04pm] {nbarclay} Hi. I didn't pick up on the chat's being going on until a few seconds ago. [23:04] [11:04pm] {nbarclay} Sorry I'm late. [23:04] {DeepO} ah, sorry... I did post about it [23:04] [11:04pm] {nbarclay} And I was too busy in other threads to catch it. [23:04] {DeepO} oops... so I have some more reading to do [23:05] {DeepO} Vondrack, about getting 'approval' [23:05] {DeepO} this is not what we need per se [23:05] {DeepO} but we want to avoid that because you only hear one side of the story [23:05] {DeepO} you would get the idea we're here for our own interests only. [23:06] {DeepO} I mean, stablisation is of course our interest [23:06] [11:06pm] redstar1 (d@host81-132-199-245.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined. «8 people» [23:06] [11:06pm] {redstar1} jesus. who makes your passwords [23:06] {DeepO} but our plan is not about conquering the whole of Bob [23:06] {DeepO} [23:06] {DeepO} hi redstar1 [23:06] [11:06pm] {redstar1} hey guys [23:06] {DeepO} these are rather normal words in Dutch [23:07] {DeepO} which makes them quite safe... nobody understands them [23:07] [11:07pm] {redstar1} lol [23:07] [11:07pm] {Sharpe} remind me not to get a welsh person to choose any passwords with the length of their words [23:07] {DeepO} [23:07] {DeepO} I just copy those [23:09] [11:09pm] {Sharpe} to be honest there has been some concern about you guys going for a domination victory [23:09] {DeepO} Sharpe... we don't have enough with all of Bob, and Stormia [23:09] {DeepO} so that's not really an option [23:09] {DeepO} at least not for the moment [23:09] {DeepO} you on the other hand... [23:10] [11:10pm] {Kloreep} So the concern goes both ways, I guess? [23:10] {DeepO} of course [23:10] {DeepO} and Bob knows this [23:10] {DeepO} they have been trying to set us up against each other since the first turn [23:10] [11:10pm] {Sharpe} true, and how! [23:10] {DeepO} I'm pretty sure you were approached with plans of conquering us [23:11] {DeepO} and we have been too, in major ways [23:11] [11:11pm] {Sharpe} and vice versa [23:11] {DeepO} of course... [23:11] {DeepO} but as much as possible, we want to keep isolated from their machinations [23:11] [11:11pm] {Sharpe} ironically the two of us combined are now a lot stronger than the 3 Bob civs combined [23:11] {DeepO} ... until GoW gets their GA [23:12] {DeepO} actually, that still make it very viable for us to work together [23:12] [11:12pm] {Sharpe} ND is obviously in their GA now [23:12] {DeepO} and I personally would prefer working together, then having to worry about yet another backstabbing 'friend' [23:13] {DeepO} ND is in their GA, yes [23:14] [11:14pm] {Sharpe} don't worry , we are peaceful builders [23:14] {DeepO} yeah... until everything is fully build up [23:14] {DeepO} and here we are, wanting to be builders [23:14] {DeepO} but we get dragged into war after war... [23:15] {DeepO} so we try to make the best out of it [23:15] [11:15pm] {Kloreep} At least you don't have to fight it on Estonia this time. [23:15] [11:15pm] {Sharpe} yeah, being the #1 civ does give a target on your back [23:15] {DeepO} not for the moment... and let's hope that will stay that way [23:15] [11:15pm] {nbarclay} We don't have to fight on Estonia yet. [23:16] [11:16pm] {nbarclay} But if GoW takes a notion to join ND in the fight against us, we aren't exactly that far from Port Isolation. [23:16] {DeepO} brb; need a drink [23:16] [11:16pm] {Sharpe} so how far are you guys from Banking? [23:17] [11:17pm] {nbarclay} That depends on how we balance research and military spending. [23:17] [11:17pm] {nbarclay} Wars tend to put a crimp in research spending. [23:17] [11:17pm] {Sharpe} true [23:18] [11:18pm] {nbarclay} What's your estimate on Astronomy? [23:19] [11:19pm] {vondrack} let me see [23:20] [11:20pm] {nbarclay} If we don't suffer any major problems that force us to push military spending hard, we can probably try to get Banking around the same time or not much later. [23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} well, I could also talk about various other uses for gold... ...but it is about 7-8 turns. We can make it a bit faster, if needs be [23:21] {DeepO} that's what we thought from previous estimates, I think [23:21] [11:21pm] {vondrack} does that fit well with your Banking research schedule? [23:21] {DeepO} you wouldn't mind if the trade came let's say 2 turns later? [23:22] {DeepO} we can make that... but not sure if we want to... [23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} I do not think that would be a problem [23:22] {DeepO} the thing is not so much our military... but we now kind of support to economies [23:22] {DeepO} two [23:23] [11:23pm] {vondrack} we do not plan to research anything Banking-dependent after getting it anyway... [23:23] [11:23pm] {nbarclay} Ten turns from now could probably fit our plans pretty well if all goes more or less as expected. [23:23] [11:23pm] {vondrack} ok, if 10 turns is your ETA, there is no problem [23:23] {DeepO} that's cool [23:24] {DeepO} it was an issue on our last deal that was not fully decided yet [23:24] {DeepO} I mean, we intentionally left it open... [23:24] {DeepO} and I don't see us selling banking to anyone but you soon [23:24] {DeepO} btw, do you have an agreement with Vox on what they';ll research? [23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} yes, we do [23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} but ATM, they can research very little [23:25] {DeepO} true... 40 turn research is not much [23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} so it's a 40-turn project, naturally [23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} yes [23:26] {DeepO} but at least it's something... I don't see Bob going for anything more either [23:26] [11:26pm] {vondrack} true [23:26] {DeepO} so if we can research at least one tech before those 40 turns end, we should be both one turn in the lead [23:26] [11:26pm] {vondrack} one tech? [23:26] {DeepO} ehh... grammar is starting to fail [23:27] {DeepO} well, if Bob goes for one tech, and we can get at least 2 in the mean time... [23:27] {DeepO} I think our plan to go for econ still holds [23:27] {DeepO} but there has been very little discussion about that lately [23:27] [11:27pm] {vondrack} ok, fine [23:27] {DeepO} have you decided on what to research after astro yet? [23:28] [11:28pm] {vondrack} one of the optional techs, probably... [23:28] {DeepO} okay [23:28] [11:28pm] {vondrack} still hoping to trade for Invention [23:29] {DeepO} invention? [23:29] {DeepO} anyone researching that? [23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} well, I would expect that [23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} since it is on the path to gunpowder [23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} am I wrong? [23:29] {DeepO} no, I think so... [23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} I mean - you have info that NOBODY researches Invention? [23:30] {DeepO} but as engineering has been only researched... [23:30] [11:30pm] {nbarclay} If GoW and/or ND are researching at all, one of them is probably going for Invention. GoW can't build Leo's without it if that's what their plans for the Great Library build are. [23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} not even a 40-turn research? [23:30] {DeepO} no, not really [23:30] {DeepO} you understand that ND and GoW aren't exactly sollicting info to us for the moment [23:30] [11:30pm] {nbarclay} But I don't know how GoW and ND are balancing research against rush building and upgrading (if they have anything they haven't already upgraded). [23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} yes, I can imagine that [23:31] {DeepO} let's hope they do some rushbuilding [23:31] {DeepO} keeps them smaller in the long term [23:31] {DeepO} well.. if they don't use those uinits to conquer us, of course [23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} LoL [23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} well... anything else on our agenda today? [23:32] {DeepO} not for me... [23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} it seems I have a lot to catch up in the forums [23:32] {DeepO} but if anything remains: just contact me [23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} have been aaway for this weekend [23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} ok, I will [23:33] {DeepO} and I need to sleep my anniversary weekend off [23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} [23:33] {DeepO} way too much partying [23:33] {DeepO} anybody else? [23:34] {DeepO} in that case, I would say: sweet dreams to all of you [23:34] [11:34pm] {vondrack} ok, then - guys, thanks for the chat and for the information, however... ahem... 'sparse' it was [23:34] {DeepO} sorry, can't be helped [23:34] [11:34pm] {vondrack} to you, too [23:34] [11:34pm] {vondrack} I know - just kidding [23:34] {DeepO} and thanks for the chat... let's keep this going [23:35] [11:35pm] {vondrack} ok, talk to you next Sunday [23:35] [11:35pm] {vondrack} bye [23:35] {DeepO} bye everyone Session Close: Sun Jul 27 23:35:28 2003

	31-07-2003 14:16									#119
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Vondrack, it's good that you inform me before more draconic measures are decided upon: New Madrid will be in possession of RP in their next turn (50 AD). We needed it for 2 turns, to make sure we can build a beachhead in their cultural borders without having to declare war, and to facilitate transporting our troops to the front. AFAIK, it never was intended that we would gain New Madrid out of the treaty with RP, it was a temporary transfer, just like all the other cities we were gifted thus far. Of all the RP cities, only the harbor cities on their East coast interest us, and in establishing another harbor town of ourselves (taking minimal territory, as it will be very close to New Madrid) we will gain the strategic, defensive position we set out for. We consider that a small price to pay for the loss of troops we will undoubtedly suffer in defending RP. Those cities that we want will stay with RP for as long as they can be defended (which hopefully means until the end of the war): for us, these would be highly corrupt cities, and in RP's hands they can produce a lot more. And RP is going to need all the production it can muster. They are nowhere near resigning (I haven't heard any rumour of it, on the contrary, they're optimistic to the outcome, all things considering), and I'm not sure that even in such a case, GS would accept their cities. It is not our style to win ground from a dying team. I'm a bit sad after reading your note, although I do understand it. But it seems the GoW talks have turned you... GS is being pushed into the evil imperialistic role GoW want everybody to believe, while in reality, we only try to defend against the imperialistic nations on Bob. We would have been perfectly happy if GoW didn't broke our NAP, so that we could have defended RP through peaceful means. Now, we will have to get involved military. Again, we're foremost interested in keeping the balance intact by helping RP, it would have been quite easy to take all our troops and drop them in the middle of GoW territory, and let RP be overrun. If we really were going for Bob, that would be the tactic to follow. It would leave 2 devastated nations, instead of a slow, bloody, balanced war. Please, ask me questions if you want to, now with the war officially going on between us and GoW, we can answer a lot more. Also, a few things can be disclosed because they won't matter anymore (like "Yes, we have troops on Bob. GoW will see the first of them next turn"). The people of GS still value a friendly relation to Legoland, and I'm sure that your concerns will be taken into account in our discussions. Best regards, DeepO quote: Esteemed Ambassador, It is my sad duty to inform you that the people of Legoland watch the ongoing transfer of Spanish cities to Egypt with worries and diminishing understanding. With New Madrid, one of the Spanish finest production centers, handed over to you, we cannot but assume the Spaniards are more or less resigning from the game, letting you take over their positions. This unfortunately goes beyond what we expressed being content with - this is no longer "balancing the power on Bob" in our eyes, unless by "balancing the power" you actually meant seizing that power to yourself. The people of Legoland, until now friendly and happy to trade with your glorious nation, would not be able to stay neutral in this conflict, should your armies intervene and the territory of Gathering Storm on Bob grow. The reason would be the very same as your original reason to get involved in the Great Bobian War - maintaining the balance of power. Respectfully, vondrack, FAM of Legoland

	04-08-2003 13:52									#120
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Vondrack, I'm sorry to have missed the chat yesterday, I came home much too late, and went straight for bed. However, if possible, I would like to reschedule it for tonight... given your last message, there are some things we need to discuss. Would 21:00 GMT suit you? BTW, I mentioned in my last message that New Madrid was going to be returned to RP in 50 AD... but the plans have changed somewhat, we need to hold on to it for at least a couple more turns, as it can't be defended by RP against GoW (and they are threatening the city) Hope to see you tonight, DeepO