06-12-2002 05:45									#31
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I also think you're overestimating yourself.

Maybe, maybe not.

However, you still haven't backed up your assanine claim despite repeated requests. Why is that?

	06-12-2002 05:46									#32
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 You just jumped on saying how wasted the Pals are for "breeding like crazy".

No, I wasn't. I was stating that a high birth rate alone does not help a society, and too high a birth rate will end up harming that society. How can a society run the affairs of the country, teach it's childrens the skills they need, maintain a high economy, etc, when there are many more kids than there are adults who can perform those task?


A negative growth rate can have negative consequences as well, but somehow, I don't think europe's neutral growth rate will give it as big a problem as the Palestinians positive growth rate.

	06-12-2002 05:47									#33
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Because I only say things once.

I expect the other party to waste a minimum amount of gray matter before they throw themselves at the keyboard and continue to look like ignorant colonials.

	06-12-2002 05:49									#34
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Because I only say things once.

You haven't even said one thing of actual note in this thread. Why don't you try for an actual first this time?

	06-12-2002 05:51									#35
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I try to drag you out of your mental oblivion.
But you have to make an effort too.

	06-12-2002 05:53									#36
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You are starting to bore me.

	06-12-2002 05:53									#37
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Could I also ask you if you are jewish?

You could. Heck, it doesn't even suprise me that you would. I wouldn't answer you, but feel free and ask.

quote: Because I find it very hard to believe even for a brainwashed american to be a child killer supporter with such placidity as you...

Funny. I didn't think that promoting sensible familiy planning required killing children. I don't even remember learning how to kill anyone when learning safe sex in school...

	06-12-2002 05:53									#38
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A product of your mental obesity.

	06-12-2002 05:55									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Edan You could. Heck, it doesn't even suprise me that you would. I wouldn't answer you, but feel free and ask.

You already did. Thank you.

quote: Funny. I didn't think that promoting sensible familiy planning required killing children.

Tell that to the Israeli tanks.

	06-12-2002 06:22									#40
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High birth rates possibly beneficial?

I don't know enough about the situation in Israel, or in the Gaza bank to comment specifically, but generally population growth increases wealth of most countries.
Look at Europe between 1750-1900 especially the consistent population growth, and the resultant increase in productivity.

The more people you have, the greater demand becomes for food. More people are likely to invest in cultivation where there is a decent return, so with increasing demand, profit will be made though use of marginal lands, or increasing the intensity of agriculture, that would not otherwise have been profitable.

Another function of increased population will be increased population density. So long as the population density can be supported by city infrastructure, the more people you cluster will increase the productivity of each individual person, as well as allowing greater specialisation. This increase in productivity not only meets the demand from greater production, but exceeds demand, allowing products to be exported.

"when there are many more kids than there are adults who can perform those task?"

Excellent point Edan- I don't know whether there is a limiting factor to population growth, or at which point population growth ceases to work properly. Although a person at the age of 7 will do more work with their hands then they will consume from food; it seems more of a matter of how you use this growth that determines how the society benefits.

No benefit from suicide bombers though- what a waste of people!

	06-12-2002 06:25									#41
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Also don't forget to mention the benefits of young productive *financially contributing* populations to the social welfare programs in Europe.

	06-12-2002 06:30									#42
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Dino: Paiktis is right, more or less, as much as it pains me to say it.

Population growth generally leads to economic growth, considering that population growth leads to labor growth. The basic output equation has two components: labor and capital. An increase in the labor input will lead to more economic growth.

	06-12-2002 06:31									#43
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Of course I'm right (in this case). It's self explanatory. Of course nothing is too obvious for Dino. Nothing relating to Europe that is.

	06-12-2002 06:33									#44
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This assumes, of course, that the unemployment rate does not increase over time so much as to outstrip the population gain.

	06-12-2002 06:35									#45
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The free market adjustements would take care of that anyway. As long as it is really "free"...

	06-12-2002 06:36									#46
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What do "free" markets have to do with Europe?

	06-12-2002 06:36									#47
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Population growth generally leads to economic growth, considering that population growth leads to labor growth.

Population growth yes. A birth every 30 minutes, probably not given the scarce water resources in the region already.

There is a point at which a high population growth becomes a heavy burden upon the country which is why China has such a draconian policy in this area. I would agrue that the Palestinian rate of growth is unsustainable and doesn't represent an asset as Zorba asserts.

	06-12-2002 06:37									#48
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DanS,
Up to a certain level they are quite present here.

(nice come back, but I did serve you a nice pass, or whatever you call it in baseball)

	06-12-2002 06:37									#49
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There is no such thing as "unsustainable". Economics isn't a zero sum game.

Paiktis: Palestine (Judea and Sumeria ) doesn't have free markets either, of course.

	06-12-2002 06:40									#50
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Well according to you neither does Europe.

At least 21th century Palestine has the high birth rates

	06-12-2002 06:41									#51
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That's right! Let's all move to Palestine!

	06-12-2002 06:41									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DanS There is no such thing as "unsustainable".

Poor choice of words. "Drag on the economy" would have been better and more accurate.

	06-12-2002 06:42									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Dino: Paiktis is right, more or less, as much as it pains me to say it. Population growth generally leads to economic growth, considering that population growth leads to labor growth. The basic output equation has two components: labor and capital. An increase in the labor input will lead to more economic growth.

The problem is that the increase in population is causing the average age to drop. If the average age is now 14, it'll be 10 in a decade or two at the rate it's going (of course, most likely something will stop it from maintaining it's current rate).

At a rough guess estimate: if the population of Palestinians is 3 million now, with 1.5 million under 14, you will have a population of 6 million in 10 years with 3 million under the age of 10 and 1.5 million between 10 and 24. How can a society develop when only a quater of it's population is above 24? How will they be able to take care of a rapidly growing population's needs in a fairly small area of gaza and the west bank with it's limited resources?

	06-12-2002 06:44									#54
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Edan: Your "problems" could be just as easily framed as "opportunities" and "challenges". I don't buy into this Israeli view that this a problem.

Dino: "Drag on the economy" isn't very precise, but it will have to do in a pinch. Sure, they might have to pay more for water and food, but in a working economy, this shouldn't be too difficult to overcome. At the same time, the large benefits of a greater number of workers is very real.

China's population policies are not only immoral but also unenlightened.

Last edited by DanS on 06-12-2002 at 06:51

	06-12-2002 06:49									#55
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It IS relevant to point out the "Irish financial miracle" of the 90's at this point. And their low average age.

Also, as much as it pains me this time, their right wing liberal economic policies.

	06-12-2002 06:50									#56
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Still social democratic Greece is not so far behind Ireland in rampant economic growth in the 90's. Actually it's second after it in the EU. And while our average age is much higher than that of Ireland's our plethora of new coming immigrants certaintly is not.

	06-12-2002 06:52									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DanS There is no such thing as "unsustainable". Economics isn't a zero sum game. Paiktis: Palestine (Judea and Sumeria ) doesn't have free markets either, of course.

Samaria, not Sumeria.

	06-12-2002 06:53									#58
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Whatever.

	06-12-2002 06:56									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Edan: Your "problems" could be just as easily framed as "opportunities" and "challenges". I don't buy into this Israeli view that this a problem.

Oh, I think building up Gaza and the West Bank would offer some fantastic opportunities, but handling an average population dropping down to preteenager levels? How easy is it to build up a country and an economy, teach those new kids skills, feed and shelter them? Especially when what they've been learning over the last 10 years is hatred and terrorism? I see very little to convince me that they will be able to handle these challenges unless they make radical changes to their society - ie, having a society that builds up instead of tearing down.

	06-12-2002 06:58									#60
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I hardly think the situation of the Palestinians is entirely, or perhaps even mostly, of their own doing. Further, lower population growth wouldn't help them better their lot in life.

This does present quite an interesting choice to Israel, however.