06-12-2002 07:06									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I hardly think the situation of the Palestinians is entirely, or perhaps even mostly, of their own doing.

It's not. It's the fault of the palestinian leadership (ie, the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, etc)

quote: Further, lower population growth wouldn't help them better their lot in life.

True, not in itself, but it may make it easier to make it easier if there are more adults than children.

quote: This does present quite an interesting choice to Israel, however.

What choice would that be?

	06-12-2002 07:09									#62
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To give up territorial ambitions to the West Bank or not.

	06-12-2002 07:12									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DanS To give up territorial aspirations to the West Bank or not.

The majority of Israeli's are for a Palestinian state. Heck, even a majority of Likud is for a Palestinian state. What they don't want is a Palestinian state that supports terrorism. And frankly, I think thats reasonable, don't you?

	06-12-2002 07:14									#64
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This is what much of the Israeli electorate is for...

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...p=1012571727092

I.e., not a real state, and therefore no basis for negotiations.

"The prime minister said the state he proposed would be completely demilitarised. "Israel will continue to control all entries and exits to the Palestinian state, will command its air space, and not allow it to form alliances with Israel's enemies."

"He also indicated that the proposed state would include little over 40 per cent of the West Bank, although he guaranteed there would be contiguity between areas of Palestinian control."

Simple math will tell you that 60% of the West Bank is Israel's territorial ambition.

	06-12-2002 07:15									#65
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This is what much of the Israeli electorate is for... http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...p=1012571727092 I.e., not a real state, and therefore no basis for negotiations.

I am glad to see that for once you quoted a half decent publication instead of that deplorable Washington Post.

	06-12-2002 07:19									#66
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Shoot, the FT is the only half-decent publication the Brits put out.

Something has to make up for the Guardian.

	06-12-2002 07:21									#67
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quote: Shoot, the FT is the only half-decent publication the Brits put out.

You don't like The Economist?

	06-12-2002 07:22									#68
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DanS,
I see you have become a master of editing your posts

Replace Guardian with Daily Telegraph and your politicoeconomic roots won't be showing so much.

	06-12-2002 07:22									#69
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Drake: Nope. Major issues with that rag.

Paiktis: Priorities. Priorities.

	06-12-2002 07:23									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Nope. Major issues with that rag.

Such as?

	06-12-2002 07:24									#71
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quote: Simple math will tell you that 60% of the West Bank is Israel's territorial ambition.

Then maybe the Palestinian leadership should have considered agreeing to, or at least offering a counter proposal to Clintons offer of 97% of the territories and a land swap for the other 3% that Barak had agreed to?

Personally, I think the end result will probably be closer to Baraks offer anyway (assuming the Palestinian leaders can stop the terrorism). Sharon could easily be playing hardball to get the Palestinians to be more agreeable (ie, playing politics).

	06-12-2002 07:27									#72
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DanS, it's very silly to project the views of a prime minister, who doesn't even reflect the views of his party, to the whole nation.

Surveys done in Israel continually show that around 80% believe that a palestinian state will eventually be set up, and around 50% are willing for it to be more or less in the 1967 borders.

People don't vote for Sharon to make the peace deal. They vote for him to fight a war against terror. When there will be a time for peace, the Israeli public will vote for a Labour candidate. Just like it happenned in 1999.


Further, even though higher growthrate promotes growth, it depends on whether a country can grow.

It's not a secret that super high birthrates all keep third world countries in poverty.

Unless you suggest that 10 year olds will be part of the labour market, I don't really understand how you can see the Palestinian birthrate presents "opportunities". Throwing around buzz words doesn't make the sh*t the pals are sinking in any shallower.

	06-12-2002 07:28									#73
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Paiktis: Our paths got crossed in a post-edit-post. I've got problems with the Telegraph, but lesser ones.

Edan: What does that have to do with Sharon's offer of a mere 40% of the West Bank and the creation of a non-state state? Truly, you confuse me.

	06-12-2002 07:29									#74
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Hell, even though Likkud accepted a resolution which says that a Palestinian state shouldn't be allowed to form, inner surveys show that 80% of Likkud members think that such a state will form.



Azazel - me and my gf are doing just fine taking it our pace, thanks.

If you want, you can meet up with Mark, and talk to him about the possibilities of two men having kids.

	06-12-2002 07:31									#75
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Paiktis: Our paths got crossed in a post-edit-post. I've got problems with the Telegraph, but lesser ones.

Never say that in public Comparing the Telegraph with The Economist...

You might as well start buying The Sun.

I hear there's always a fine piece of journalism on the 3rd page. Of the same quality as the Daily Telegraph.

	06-12-2002 07:35									#76
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High birthrate=increased poverty

	06-12-2002 07:36									#77
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Lefty is also from Texas you know.

	06-12-2002 07:37									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov People don't vote for Sharon to make the peace deal. They vote for him to fight a war against terror. When there will be a time for peace, the Israeli public will vote for a Labour candidate. Just like it happenned in 1999.

OTOH, It took Nixon to go to China, and Begin was the one to sign a peace treaty with Egypt. Sharon might be able to produce or initiate a viable solution. And, IIRC, it was Sharon who convinced Begin to remove the settlements in the Sinai and criticized Shamir for not opposing efforts towards a peace initiative with Jordan.

	06-12-2002 07:39									#79
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" Surveys done in Israel continually show that around 80% believe that a palestinian state will eventually be set up, and around 50% are willing for it to be more or less in the 1967 borders."

Well, then, what are we waiting for? Hop to it!

Fact is, the Palestinians have you over a human rights barrell on the right of return for refugees. The result will be a dismantling of all settlements in the West Bank in addition to ~100% of the '67 borders, a Jerusalem dual capital and some sort of compensatory damages (water rights?). Also, Palestine will be unable to guarantee Israeli security from the likes of Hezbollah. Everybody OK with that? Good! Sign right here...

"It's not a secret that super high birthrates all keep third world countries in poverty."

Super high birthrates don't keep anybody in poverty. Sustained bad governmental policies keep people in poverty. And since Israel is occupying the West Bank, it's responsible for the area.

	06-12-2002 07:41									#80
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Edan: What does that have to do with Sharon's offer of a mere 40% of the West Bank and the creation of a non-state state? Truly, you confuse me.

What does what have to do with Sharons offer? the Clinton proposal? I'm merely saying that the end result will probably be closer to that offer than this one. And that perhaps the next time the Palestinians have an offer, they offer a counter proposal, instead of initiating an intifada....

	06-12-2002 07:47									#81
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, then, what are we waiting for?

An end to the terrorism?

quote: Super high birthrates don't keep anybody in poverty. Sustained bad governmental policies keep people in poverty. And since Israel is occupying the West Bank, it's responsible for the area.

Before the Intifada, it is the PA who were maintaining the government policies for nearly all the Palestinians for a number of years, and even then, it wasn't until April that Israel started it's massive incursions.
(And what about Gaza? Gaza is worse off than the West Bank and, AFAIK, there's been very little in the way of incursions there.

	06-12-2002 07:52									#82
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Edan: Arafat must have believed that splitting the difference between what he was offering and what Israel was offering would be unacceptable. There is no shame in them recognizing reality and walking away from the table.

Edit: The intifada is a noble cause. Just the tactics used in pursuit of the cause are ignoble.

	06-12-2002 07:56									#83
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Edan: Arafat must have believed that splitting the difference between what he was offering and what Israel was offering would be unacceptable. There is no shame in them recognizing reality and walking away from the table.

What a lame excuse. He knew in 1993 that he would have to make some (painful) choices and compromises, that in the end he wasn't willing to make because he's a terrorist who refuses to change his stripes.

Perhaps Israel should realize that the Palestinian Leadership will never be able to live in a Palestinian State in peace with Israel (as aposed to instead of Israel), and walk away from peace with the Palestinians, and start there own intifada against the Palestinians by trying to kill as many civilians as they can?

	06-12-2002 08:00									#84
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An US leased F16 intifada. How high tech.

If Israel does that I doubt that there will be any Israel to speak of.

The world is connected. You can't even attack Iraq without its concent let alone Israel try to ethnic cleanse Palestine.

DO try and be real.

	06-12-2002 08:02									#85
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" What a lame excuse. He knew in 1993 that he would have to make some (painful) choices and compromises, that in the end he wasn't willing to make because he's a terrorist who refuses to change his stripes."

No, not a lame excuse at all. When there's no basis for further negotiation, you are obliged to walk away from the table. To do otherwise would be giving out false information about your intentions and endanger the possibility of an acceptable deal.

	06-12-2002 08:02									#86
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Someone doesn't understand Sarcasm. Note the rolling eyes icon.

	06-12-2002 08:05									#87
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quote: No, not a lame excuse at all. When there's no basis for further negotiation, you are obliged to walk away from the table. To do otherwise would be giving out false information about your intentions and endanger the possibility of an acceptable deal.

Yeah, keep repeating to yourself that Arafat was serious about peace, diplomacy and negotiating and exausted all non-violent ways of getting a Palestinian state. Maybe if one says it enough times, one can believe it.

	06-12-2002 08:12									#88
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I have no basis to think that he wasn't serious about these things. Failed negotiations doesn't indicate bad intentions on anybody's part.

	06-12-2002 08:33									#89
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"I hear there's always a fine piece of journalism on the 3rd page."

I don't know how they get away with it. That would be frowned on quite a bit here in the States.

	06-12-2002 08:41									#90
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I have no basis to think that he wasn't serious about these things. Failed negotiations doesn't indicate bad intentions on anybody's part.

If Arafat was serious about the peace process (or even if he simply cared about the Palestinians):

Why didn't he close down the weapons and bomb factories in the territories as was agreed to in the Oslo accords?

Why didn't he sieze the illegal weapons agreed to in the Oslo accords?

Why did he not close down Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, etc. and arrest it's leaders?

Why did he not prevent terrorist attacks?

Why were there more terrorist attacks in the 8 years after Oslo thean the Preceeding 8 years?

Why did Arafat embezzle aid to Palestinians?

Why are the textbooks published by the Palestinian Authority filled with hate and incitement?

Why should I believe that the man wasfor peace, when he refused to speak against the terrorism for more than a year and a half after the Intifada started, and only then after enourmous pressure?

Why should I trust Arafat? He tried to overthrow the governments of Jordan and Lebanon in the past, and I havent seen anything to make me think he's changed his ways.