30-01-2003 21:19									#241
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It's really a matter of numbers. WCs (and horsemen) always need a significant advantage in numbers to take on fortified opponents, and the stronger the defenses, the bigger that advantage needs to be. If Tom had been able to come in with twice as many units as he did, he could have achieved a favorable loss ratio (since toward the end, WCs would be attacking wounded defenders) and his wounded WCs could have withdrawn successfully to prepare for their next attack. But because Arrian was able to figure out where Tom would attack and concentrate an equally powerful defensive force there, Tom's forces got slaughtered.

	30-01-2003 22:27									#242
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Exactly. I didn't do anything brilliant - I actually played it safe. I made the least mistakes. That tends to win wars.

-Arrian

	30-01-2003 23:51									#243
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We have been making less mistakes than Vox so far, and intend to keep doing that, so i think it's pretty much obvious that a direct head to head against Vox will end at our triumph. The question is- how much are we willing to pay for it? is it worth it? and more importantly, what would we do afterwards?

It seems Vox's land aren't worth much, and would also be corrupt. I'm really beggining to see the option of us not going to war- we would tie Vox in a close (although without long term commitment) to us, making sure they are dependant. With Vox tendency to go for the safest and most lucrative offer around, they won't be aware of the fact that they are clearly second class untill its to late for them to do anything, maybe after a war with Lux with them being cannon fodder (or better yet- thinking that they have, while we actually are gaining most ground, and claiming the prime areas for ourselves) to set up a foothold on the mainland. After this, Vox is a puny state near a well develpod, imperialistic empire (hmm... Gathering Storm Empire, sounds good) and any form is restitance, so to speak, is futile.

I say this is possible, since as i think i managed to read what is the spirit of things in Vox, as some of you probably have, from that chat with JM- they will settle for less now, and won't think about the future, as they are mostly concerned with staying in the game, rather than to win it. We can give them that, while we slowly strip their every chance to arive beyond this survival, and they will be pleased. (see border proposal- Vox is actually settling for being a second best on our continent, while Nathan is taking the role of city placer for them).

Now, if we could just settle the GL dilemma, then we can plan ahead more easily... as far as i see it, its a tough call.

	31-01-2003 02:03									#244
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It is possible to defeat on offense with a numbers disadvantage. It just takes different tactics than a head-on collision with their best defended holding.

If Vox does create a ridiculously fortified city on the isthmus, I hope we do not choose to wait until we have a numbers advantage, and use other tactics (Catapults, anyone?) instead.


Dominae

	31-01-2003 03:35									#245
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Vox didn't just say, "Here, Nathan, place our cities however you want to." They listened because my ideas made a lot of sense in terms of how to squeeze the most out of a limited amount of land. What I recommended to them was the same approach that I take myself on cramped island starts (and, for that matter, that we're using in GS's city planning): if you don't have enough land, make effective use of water so you can generate a decent amount of wealth. And I like to think I'm good at that sort of thing.

	16-02-2003 02:36									#246
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The text of the email I sent with the 1700 BC city placement and defense map:

I used the 1700 BC map as a starting point, and added the current city placement plan (red circles), and an early idea of what our key defensive points need to be.

D1 and D3 are for early on... they can be moved forward after the northeastern towns are built.

D2 is indispensable, as is D6 once the town to the east of it is built. They should both preferably have fortresses as well.

D4, D5, D7, and D8 are only necessary if we get as far as having built the neighboring towns before war commences.

D7 is a question mark... either we provide a gateway onto the western grassland, or we have to maintain a Maginot Line. Also, don't forget we'll want a ready reaction force to the west of the Spinebreakers anyway, just in case of galley landings.

All of these should be roaded.

This will mean a minimum of 5-6 Spearmen above and beyond any town garrisons.

	16-02-2003 02:43									#247
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With sufficient WCs available, we could move D2 and D6 each one to the north. Vox couldn't get to the current D2 and D6 points without going either through or around one of them, and trying to go around would be a fatal mistake.

	16-02-2003 03:11									#248
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Without getting into the geo-political discussion of our long-term plans for Vox, I would like to explore our offensive and defensive strategies in their regard.

Some initial thoughts on the potential of war in the relatively near-term, with Spears, Swords, WCs, Horsemen, and Galleys:

TIMING

The first question is timing, which breaks down into three parts.

First, our GA. I / we have been assuming we will want to trigger the GA immediately once in republic... is this true? How many towns of what size will we have at that point?

At some point though, while in republic, we may want to trigger the GA via a WC win.

(Important sidenote: Some kind of turn-by-turn forecast of town / unit / tech completions, maybe with some alternatives, would be very useful (and keep Nathan busy )).

Second, the timing of our northern-most towns. If we go to war having NOT built the northeastern and northwestern towns, we'll have two great killzones east and west of the Spinebreakers, and will only need strong defenses on D2 and D6 (btw, I hope no one has a problem with fortresses, as was recently being discussed in General). In that case, the town at the northeast tip of the desert will be very important, and we will probably want a defender on the mountain adjacent to it (due to the probable lack of a lookout defending D8).

Third, the kind of opposition we will face. I'm a bit torn here... on the one hand the earlier the better. On the other, if we set this up right, we might be able to do some GL-farming... yes, on Immortals. Catt had a good name for it: "slow war" if I remember correctly. Given our production and fastmover advantages, this could be quite doable.

OFFENSE

We need:

* Enough gold to upgrade all Warriors. I wouldn't mind delaying the upgrades until we are ready war.

* Enough Horsemen to get through the mountains / jungle.

We will need to decide whether to reserve the Swords for defensive support, or to send them across the mountains to D-ville, with or without Horsemen, or both.

A big question will be how far to push forward... I'd think in the first war at least to the isthmus.

What are our thoughts on offensive galley maneuvers and landings? Maybe on a key position at the isthmus?

Do we worry about CFing? Or do we later make it an absolute, irrevocable, and public part of any peace that CF-towns are returned?

DEFENSE

The key defensive positions were discussed above. I like Nathan's thought of moving D2 and D6 north, but only once we are in position for war, and only in the instance where we have built the northwest-most town and have therefore emplaced D4 and D5... otherwise, if in the case of an earlier war, I'd probably leave'em where they are.

In addition, however, what about garrisons? And key mountain landings to the rear?

Again, I'd want to have some Swords on defense, mostly to take out damaged Immortals on mountains.

Do we want at least a couple of galleys on each coast just in case?

	16-02-2003 03:21									#249
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I hadn't really thought about using horsemen rather than swordsmen to punch through jungles, but I suppose against immortals, the ability to retreat could easily be worth more than an extra point of defense. Of course if we're lucky, by the time we're ready to attack Vox (if we go that route), Vox will have been nice enough to clear us a way through their jungles (or at least to build us a road).

Nathan

	16-02-2003 03:51									#250
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Theseus, a timing question just to confirm how we want to set city build orders: You need 2 spears as fast as possible, and a further minimum of 2-3 when the Western cities are settled, right? That leaves as quite a bit of time, as our next 3 cities will probably be build on our South.

Of course, all extra spears / units are welcome, but as a minimum request from the Spartan Academy such an estimate is valuable.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 04:42									#251
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Yes, I think D1 and D2 (especially) are important. After that, of course, the line of northern towns will need Spears as well.

	16-02-2003 07:51									#252
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I like the general layout, but I think we could use our city placement to better utilize WC's (mainly keeping them away from mountains whenever possible). I've sent a picture to our email addy with the changes. I'll go into more detail about it later tonight, gotta run now.

	16-02-2003 08:37									#253
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City placement isn't only a military thing, so allow me a few comments:
Site #2, which used to be site #6 before (some of the numbers have already been built) should move 7. I know that this means we need a cultural building in either of the three cities to use the fur, but it also makes better use of the coast. It only matters one tile, but one tile more to use is one won

Site #6 (used to be #11): I've got little opinion on which one is better, it used to be farther from the mountains, but it was changed so that there wouldn't be a cultural battle for the iron, it would certainly be ours. Both are fine by me...

I saw you used an alternate plan, which gives us two less cities. I'm not sure if this is intended, but our border treaty with Vox allows for more territory to use, so why wouldn't we take it? Sure, our defense should be adjusted, but don't 2 extra cities pay for that?

DeepO

	16-02-2003 09:40									#254
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Sorry, guys. I used the last ratified border treaty that Nathan posted for the north, and otherwise the most recent city placement map I could find.

Let's do a new city placement map.

Uhmm, would anybody mind talking about military stuff?

	16-02-2003 09:43									#255
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Theseus, your city planning map was what I expected, with only the discovery of the whale changing one city in the desert... it's Aseon's map I was commenting on. It's in our mailbox.

I like to read some explanations on all the other things on the map though, I've got some ideas, but am curious to the rest.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 09:46									#256
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What's to be sorry about? You used what was, for all intents and purposes, our current official city placement plan. I really need to run some projections on how our old plan, Aeson's variant, and maybe another possibility orr two stack up against each other, but I'm too tired to tackle that tonight.

If you want to talk about military stuff, why not talk about it instead of just talking about talking about it?

	16-02-2003 09:55									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Uhmm, would anybody mind talking about military stuff?

I agree that a couple of Gallies on both coasts could be invaluable. Land 2 Spear and 2 Horse behind the lines once and freeze the deer in the head-lights.

	16-02-2003 10:12									#258
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Hey, I AM talking military.

(smacks Nathan with a trout)

(when do I get to play with mixed-unit armies?)

Seriously:

I like nye's suggestion... especially given what we've seen of Vox. Can we say "paralyzed"? Can we say "Buh-bye"?

I had something more simple in mind, but maybe both can be done together; when the time comes, I'd very much like to cut their roads, preferably on a mountain / hill tile.

Last edited by Theseus on 16-02-2003 at 10:23

	16-02-2003 10:45									#259
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Here is a general rundown.

Cities: (general order of founding can vary)

1. Looking at it again, I would actually swap 5 and 1 in the city build order. This site would be settled by Settler2 from Cyclone.

2. I agree with DeepO, that this should be moved 7. This would be a good canidate for a cultural improvement to grab the Whale and Furs. Opening up another tile to use will overcome the initial -1 commerce by this move. Settler1 from Cyclone.

3. This is a consolidated desert setup, which I think is more in our interest. The northern desert city as previously planned would make defending the Spinebreaker area more costly, requiring us to hold 2 mountain tiles instead of just one (marked X). The fewer cities in this area should help our eventual cities up in the Jungle are be more productive without sacrificing the use of valuable tiles. WC's from X can cover the approach to this city site.

F. This would be a fortress type city, and facilitates a quick temporary passage E-W until the road at X is eventually put in place. Eventually we would probably move this city, but in the meantime it can help with the worker load and opens up more Grassland to be used by 6 initially. Settler2 from EotC.

5. As noted above, this should be swapped with 1. This will delay the city being built 1 turn, but the extra food from the start will more than overcome that. Settler1 from EotC

6. Moving this city back away from the Mountains makes it much more defendable. We don't have to have the Iron, but a Temple is in order here to allow the use of the Whale. This, along with the consolidation in the Desert, should cut the number of Spears we need for the same relative safety. WC's from X (F until the road is built) would be able to attack any unit moving down into the flat next to the city, and still have movement left to fall back after the attack.

7. This city was as far north as I figured on for now. The city planned north would be better suited in the Forest between the mountains, but that would only be available after our treaty with Vox is over with. Just where to found cities past this point would rely heavily on how our relations with Vox are at the time. This is a prime canidate for a Temple. We should ask Vox for possession of the Mountain 8,8.

8 and 9. Both these cities could wait to be founded until after the Jungle was Settled if it comes to that. Both will have access to a Plains tile, but 8's would be irrigated first. A Temple in Tempest can claim the Incence in the meantime. A Temple there is a good idea anyways as it will likely turn out to be our Middle Age wonder city.

	16-02-2003 11:06									#260
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Roads:

This is a fairly simple setup that would allow us to have a focused defense that would be able to respond to any threat in our territory from X using WC's. Moving the cities away from Mountains (or denying mountain landings) is key as our WC's are ineffective otherwise.

Any threat along the northern border can be hit with WC's from X on the same turn that they show up once the roads are in place (not a terribly high priority to get X roaded).

A: Should be modified to include the Wheat obviously. I think completion of this road should superceed further improvement of the wheat tile city 5 would be using.

B: (not labeled, road to 2) We should be able to have this road up by the time the first Settler is produced in Cyclone, along with the at least one improved tile.

C: Our worker at Hurricane should have this as it's next project. The road cuts one turn off in founding 3, and Hurricane won't require the improved tile for a bit anyways.

D: The worker from Tempest can improve the FP adjacent, and then get this Road built. Allows F to be founded 2 turns after Settler2 is produced in EotC.

E: Construction of this road can continue as already planned.

F: Worker1 from Tempest can continue along to build this.

G: Worker1 from 3 should be able to build this before it's needed.

H: No rush here.

I: Complete before Tempest expands it's borders or city 9 is founded.

	16-02-2003 11:29									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson 7. This city was as far north as I figured on for now. The city planned north would be better suited in the Forest between the mountains, but that would only be available after our treaty with Vox is over with.

Moving that city to the forest would not give it access to any extra tiles that Vox's cities in the area won't already have access to. That being the case, I think we're better off going ahead and building it where the treaty map has it.

Why build in your #5 site before your #1 site? The #1 site is only two thirds as far from EotS, and so should have lower corruption. Granted, #5 does have access to an extra grassland with shield (not counting ones Cyclone would claim during that time period), but that won't come into play until size 4.

I'll have to do the analysis on some of the other changes later. From a strictly military perspective, they generally make sense, but I don't view an attack from Vox as likely enough to justify juggling cities around to less economically useful locations over, so I need to see how the changes would affect our economy.

	16-02-2003 12:03									#262
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I just got confused on where that Wheat was. I had it right initially but 'lost' it under that brown dot and thought it was under the city tag instead. 1 and 5 are listed as they should be. The A road is right as drawn as well, and doesn't need to be extended beyond the wheat for a while.

	16-02-2003 18:00									#263
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Well... I missed that F was also a city. So, you don't actually lose a city, you just move the desert cities so one less desert tile is settled, and a hill is lost instead. Economically a loss, but probably minor enough to keep our defenses efficient.

I agree with Nathan on the most Northern city, as long as the border city is active, that place was reserved for us, so why not claim it. We need two jungle clearings to make it well defendable, but even if it's corrupted, it's on nice terrain.

only comments to the desert cities: if we're fearing any invasion from galleys, these would be best fastly settled, to avoid any beach head claiming our luxuries. In chieftain, luxs aren't that important, but it would be silly to lose them.

DeepO

	28-02-2003 12:03									#264
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Regarding the lost hill, Tempest doesn't need it to be fully productive, and there are enough hills to go around for 6, 8, and 9 without cascading to the one F would be built on. The 'lost' food we'd get from using a mountain instead of a hill in the desert cities (as originally proposed) is gained by building on the hill. Like you alluded to, the defensive position is a significant benifit if we want to extend Vox's lifespan. It also is our best bet for adding another 'free aquaduct' as all other options require covering up FP's.

8 and 9 aren't high priority as 6 and Tempest can claim all but one of the incense, and if one of the other teams wants to build up a desert city for us all the better. (GS Diplomat: "Thank you for offering to build us a city with your Settler that has reached our shores, but perhaps you would wish to sail on and have it add to the magnificence of your own empire?") Cities 8 and 9 could be security risks as well until we get our road network up to speed, as they would have the least amount of warning in relation to reaction time from F or X when taking the Lighthouse crossing into account.

I have nothing against building the northern city if we are going to still have the same borders by the time it comes to build it.