06-01-2003 15:24									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph There's a point to settle #7 first. As DeepO already mentioned, assuming they respect our borders, they won't see our south and without this knowledge, they don't know if there is another civ we could ally with or if we're alone, "in the bag". This can get very important if it comes to war!

Sir Ralph is very much right here.
Assuming that Vox really honors our borders, as they said. But i think its worth a try.

	06-01-2003 17:07									#182
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I was still kind of hoping that we would stop them before they even got to our cities, but if not building city #7 would be a good way to cut our losses. Ideally I think #3 would be the best city to build next, but I would like to keep some map knowledge all our own.

	06-01-2003 17:39									#183
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For the moment, I think Vox is going to honor our borders. Not doing it would be an outright declaration of war, and they know it.

I agree that those delay tactics will not be terribly good diplo-wise, but we can have an explanation, and I don't mind sending it to them. They will understand, as I'm quite certain they have a similar problem. We simply tell them that we want to keep our warriors in a position where they can reach any city first, instead of the scout, so that extra protection is given to these cities, and scouts remain scouts, instead of opportunistic warriors.

Telling them this will mean they will be even more inclined to follow the scout, instead of following the terrain like they would do otherwise (there is a very good chance that tim will follow the mountain range towards EotS anyhow, so we don't need to delay anything), but I can't imagine they'll get pissed about it. They will be in the same situation if they allow Grog through: they don't have adequate defenses, so need to shadow Grog so he can't reach a city.

BTW, if we are going to build the horse city, the road building can save us a few turns (which I think we'll need, as we can't hinder Tim everywhere), and makes it possible to get irrigation to the horses fast. Before that, the city doesn't grow much. And, I'd suggest to make another barracks city our of it (possibly after a worker), we won't have any defense until Hack moves there, followed by Tim, at which point all our cities are defended by one warrior only. EotS and #3 should focus on expansion, but we need some protection fast as well (a WC, which changes names every few turns, to parade in front of Vox would also be a very good idea. If we don't overdo it, they may think we have double the amount of WCs as we really have, which lets us focus on expansion)

DeepO

	06-01-2003 17:47									#184
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO (a WC, which changes names every few turns, to parade in front of Vox would also be a very good idea. If we don't overdo it, they may think we have double the amount of WCs as we really have, which lets us focus on expansion)

Oh, I like this ; I have little doubt that they'll buy it if we keep it realistic.

	06-01-2003 18:31									#185
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They sure will buy it, but we need to make sure it is not an incentive for them to start building up massive forces to counter us. Because once they figure out we were bluffing, those troops are certain to march onto our cities.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 19:59									#186
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My first thought upon logging on this morning was WC, archers, kill.

Then I thought some more, and was thinking BW, IW.

Then I thought some more, realizing as others did that WC is a prereq for Monarchy.

Archers are crappy units, it's true, but they kill warriors pretty reliably, do not require upgrade cash to work (as against a warrior -> swordsman plan), and would not blow our GA.

Then I thought some more.

Now I'm thinking that early war with Vox just to kill two scouting warriors is an overreaction. I do think we need more warriors to deal with possible attack. I also think we need spearmen, so I want BW as our next tech. If they will trade it, fine. If not, we research it at reduced cost.

I say we settle the best terrain ASAP, which means city #3, IIRC.

Our scout warriors should block our side of the chokepoint and fortify. If they agree to Nathan's proposal, great - we can go meet another civ. If not, it's a standoff.

-Arrian

	06-01-2003 20:12									#187
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Arrian, are you still thinking, and might I be able to pursuade you in settling #7 (onto the hill, next to the Horse) first? Indeed, it's not nearly as good as #3 (which will be a superb site, no matter what we're going to do with it). It would cut off all exploration of Vox scouts, and I have taken the standing of "what the hell, let them scout if it makes them happy, we can't help it anyway" a while ago.

This doesn't mean we have to give up all our secrets, and we risk that once a warrior is on the South of our capital, it will remain there, pushing us to defend all our cities, instead of only the Northern ones. It's just a manner of keeping our defenses tight, and not smear them out over the whole continent... always a good strat, in every situation.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 20:16									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Now I'm thinking that early war with Vox just to kill two scouting warriors is an overreaction. I do think we need more warriors to deal with possible attack. I also think we need spearmen, so I want BW as our next tech. If they will trade it, fine. If not, we research it at reduced cost.

BTW, I agree here: waging war for those 2 scouts is an overreaction at this point, certainly because we don't have the resources to do it before they scouted what they really need to know. They will find the spinebreaker mountain ridge leading up to our capital, and those 2 things are all they need... after that they can scout whatever they want (on the North), it won't change anything. They will have found a way to more or less safely attack us in the heart of our country, and will use that route... we know there is no other. But of course, they need to declare war first, which I think they won't do easily...

DeepO

	06-01-2003 20:23									#189
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Hmm... always thinkin' my friend.

I dunno about building on weaker terrain to limit their exploration. I do see your point about one of their guys hanging around down south and forcing us to defend from that direction, though.

Frankly, I can't see the screenshots, but as I understand it, #7 will still have a game tile to work with, yes? I guess that, plus earlier horse access and the tactical concerns make up for not getting the wheat.

#7 is fine by me. It should build 1-2 warriors, a worker, and then join the REX program.

-Arrian

	06-01-2003 20:35									#190
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Actually, it can use a game tile, but only after #3 is settled (the game is right next to #3). Its terrain is not perfect: it has the horse on plains, 3 other plains, and one unshielded grass. With irrigation, it can become a decent site, but it will never be perfect (although if we get into a GA under despotism, it will be one of the best).

Which is one of the reasons I proposed to have the worker sent to road towards the horses (which will be finished the turn after the city is settled, I think), after that the road can help in getting irrigation to that city immediately. This same irrigation path can then be used to get irrigation to #3, because if we want t a pump, we'll need water there too

DeepO

	06-01-2003 20:38									#191
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Oh, in that case, sorry, I favor #3 first then. Blocking their explorers isn't justification enough for building a city on poor terrain (plains + unshielded grassland is poor terrain until it gets developed). That's sacrificing production and growth for a (IMO minor) tactical advantage. This also assumes they will honor our borders like they say they will.

-Arrian

	06-01-2003 20:43									#192
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Arrian, the difference is only 6 turns at most, #3 will be settled right after that. But okay, np.

I just found out another tactical advantage (if, of course, Vox will respect our borders): it will block the only lookout point from outside our borders into EotS. By settling #7, we will take the mountain into our cultural borders on the diagonal(44) of EotS city view. That mountain would still be a good place to set up defense, but that can wait until we have an abbundance of warriors (which we don't atm. EotS will even need the lux slider to remain happy when it reaches size 4)

DeepO

	06-01-2003 20:50									#193
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Assuming we build two settlers in a row, I definitely say build #7 first. By the time EotS actually gets to building settlers it will be pumping them out every 5 turns or so (IIRC), which IMHO is an acceptable delay in exchange for blocking Vox. If the delay was 10-15 turns I'd agree with Arrian, but with a pump like EotS will be I say #7.

edit: gerrr, looks like DeepO had the same idea a big quicker

	06-01-2003 21:04									#194
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Hmm. If settler #2 (designated for city site #3, heh) is chop-assisted, it may pop out pretty darn quickly.

Then again, look at it from a strict economic standpoint, and sites 3 and 4 are the best 1-2 punch. I hate the idea of allowing their friggin' 2 exploring warriors hamper our development!

What does Nathan think of this?

-Arrian

	06-01-2003 21:10									#195
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We're getting there... Arrian starts to argue for it, instead of against it

While we're doing it: think of the tactical and diplomatic possibilities of not letting Vox know our land ends there. They have no idea of the fertility of it, nor how many cities can be built there, nor if there is a landbridge to the other side of the map, etc. That alone would be enough reason for me, the 4 cities who don't need defense are only a nice extra. A very nice extra.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 22:30									#196
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If they get south of us before we build #7 (the horse city), then building #7 traps them south of us. With a chop assist (which, by the way, rules out DeepO's road idea), we only delay the building of #3 by four turns, and since #3 is a tile closer, #7 is only stuck using plains tiles for three turns (although the growth delay is the same for three as for four). On that basis, I'm inclined to go for #7 first but without building a road to it in advance. (As long as we force Tim to go southeast and southwest instead of due south, we can still get it in time.)

Nathan

	06-01-2003 22:33									#197
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By the way, if Vox complains about our being in their way, we can always remind them that Thadeus is in Grog's way to a vastly greater extent. If they want us out of their way, they need to get out of ours.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 22:52									#198
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Nathan, can't we have both, by building a worker in Hurricane? A road towards #7 would be nearly a road towards #3, it has the advantage of getting horses connected, and makes irrigation towards #7 and #3 easier (which we'll need if we want #7 to grow and stay productive).

I agree though, the worst we could do is trap Tim on our South side, so either we go for it all the way and be sure we are there first (before Tim set a foot on our territory, as he will otherwise be in the middle, and could logically still chose if he wants out to the North or to the South (it's just as far)), or we don't do it. Blocking Tim is going to be needed anyway, but most likely it won't be so bad as we predict, it would surprise me if Tim is heading straight South, he will most likely try to follow the terrain.

Oh, and we'll have to delay Will for 1 or 2 turns too, which will be another problem, we might need 2 warriors for that for a turn or 2. We can't hinder him with 1 like we can with Tim.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 22:59									#199
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay By the way, if Vox complains about our being in their way, we can always remind them that Thadeus is in Grog's way to a vastly greater extent. If they want us out of their way, they need to get out of ours.

I doubt they will object, but if they do, we could just answer that they can go where the moon doesn't shine. Although it would be wiser to ignore their notes, just like they do with ours.

	06-01-2003 23:01									#200
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The timing for a worker from Hurricane is right for a chop to help with the third settler, not the second. I'm thinking have #7 build regular warriors (MP duty) or maybe archers (Vox explorer expulsion) and occasional workers until we can get irrigation to it, in which case there would be no serious waste from the lack of irrigation.

	06-01-2003 23:01									#201
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How are we planning on protecting these two settlers that EotS will build? Is Hurricane going to put out 2 warriors before anything else?

-Arrian

	06-01-2003 23:02									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I doubt they will object, but if they do, we could just answer that they can go where the moon doesn't shine. Although it would be wiser to ignore their notes, just like they do with ours.

I like the idea of reminding them of their hypocrisy better. Slowing down an explorer is wrong but blocking him completely isn't? Ridiculous. Of course if they're smart, they'll recognize that and won't complain.

	06-01-2003 23:05									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian How are we planning on protecting these two settlers that EotS will build? Is Hurricane going to put out 2 warriors before anything else?

That's the way I did it in my test scenario.

	06-01-2003 23:05									#204
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I think the same. At least, if ever we continue diplomacy, out next note should be very frosty.

	06-01-2003 23:28									#205
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... depending on what we get back as a response.

chopping wood: I thought you were talking about settler #3 (so for site #3). I haven't tested it, though, so I trust your judgement.

As to protection of the settlers: do you mean against barbs, or against Vox? Vox shouldn't be a problem, as our shadow warriors can take care of that. Barbs... hmm, a bit of a risk. Hurricane can indeed build another warrior, and with some reshufling we should be able to protect settler #3 (to site #3). the other one... I don't see how, or we need to take Gronk. And I don't like that.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 23:31									#206
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Speaking of Barbs, when did they first start showing up in your tests? At what point can we safely assume that there are no barbs in this game? I think my sense of timing is off because the game goes so slowly.

	06-01-2003 23:43									#207
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In my first tests, I found them already. But that is no guarantee, of course... in the debug test, I have yet to see the first one appearing, but that one goes very slowly

DeepO

	07-01-2003 00:04									#208
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I had not realised that a city at site 7 does not get the benefit of the Game tile under site 3 comes online. That is really too much wasted time at this point. For what? A couple of Warriors whom we're more afraid of than anything. As I recall, we promised to exchange contact information simultaneously; they honored that part of the bargain, did we? No. In any case, I'm not so worried if their scouts make it down South. If they read the signs they should have figured out that we have not contacted anyone anyway. So what if they see our best city spots? If anything, this will cause them to back off. They cannot exploit this information in any way (that I can think of). If I were Vox and I saw GS plant a city in a mediocre position just to block my path, I would laugh heartily at my (little) victory.

Economy is everything right now. 6 turns of Game or Wheat will have profound effects on our future development. And, if I hear the economists correctly, the '6 turn' figure is off because we plan to build Worker after our first Settler.

I hope I can convince some to "my side" as DeepO has, because I think this could turn out to be our second big mistake (after unecessarily delaying our Granary by 1 turn...no one's fault, I know).


Dominae

	07-01-2003 00:07									#209
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There are no Barbs. There, I've said it. On even the lowest setting we should have seen a Barb on our landmass at this point (this is just from experience). I think Vox has assumed this earlier than we have (or has knowledge that we do not) and is pushing all Warriors our way without fear.


Dominae

	07-01-2003 00:07									#210
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First home-built settler to site #7, second to site #3, third probably to site #4. Then probably a couple workers to help road to and work our new cities.

Barbs usually show up by now in the tests I've run ("roaming" barbarian level). But then again, I don't have Voxian warriors to help keep the fog of war rolled back.