07-01-2003 00:14									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Economy is everything right now. 6 turns of Game or Wheat will have profound effects on our future development. And, if I hear the economists correctly, the '6 turn' figure is off because we plan to build Worker after our first Settler.

My current preference is to use two chops, one by our original worker and one by a worker from Hurricane (and switching Hurricane to the Pyramids momentarily), to churn out a second settler four turns after the first and our third four turns after that. Only then do we build a couple extra workers. So we're talking a three-turn delay (since site #3 is closer), not a six-turn delay. Site #7 would grow only two turns later than optimal, although we'd also be setting Site #3 back a bit in the process.

Nathan

	07-01-2003 00:19									#212
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We should hold a pole on this before the settler is built (It seems to be a divided enough issue). I'm switching to #3 first (that’s one Dom ), we've already lost the map information game, there's not enough to salvage to sacrifice economic growth. The way to beat Vox now is to out REX, then out produce them (i.e. better economy).
We also should not be all that concerned with the warriors (tim and willy) as a military threat. We'll have them out numbered at least 2:1 by the time they can get to our cities, and as soon as we get anything better than warriors they will be nearly useless in a military sense.

	07-01-2003 00:21									#213
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Nathan, well, if your plan works (which I'm sure it does), there should be plenty of time to settle site 3 first, then 7 before Vox ever gets close to the borders 7 would set up (this requires zig-zag tactics, which, I might add, are just as effective against a human). Am I missing something?

By the way, I'm glad to hear we're pumping out 3 quick Settlers. Sorry I didn't have time to test it myself and give some input...RL calls.


Dominae

	07-01-2003 00:22									#214
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I see both as viable options. One is more economically viable (long term advantage) and one is more militarily viable (short term). Consider me neutral, though the idea of rearranging city builds so close to home because of them irritates me.

EDIT: Oh, can we build #3 and then #7 and still head Tim off? If so, this is a no-brainer.

-Arrian

	07-01-2003 00:28									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I see both as viable options. One is more economically viable (long term advantage) and one is more militarily viable (short term).

Actually, they're both long-term viable, it's just that one springs into action before the other. As far as I can tell, the only reason not to let Vox down South is that we want to protect our map (and maybe contact) information, which will hopefully help us in the long-term. I happen to think that one option (site 3 first) will blossom into a greater advantage than the other option promises to (because growth is geometric, while information is not).


Dominae

	07-01-2003 00:43									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Nathan, well, if your plan works (which I'm sure it does), there should be plenty of time to settle site 3 first, then 7 before Vox ever gets close to the borders 7 would set up (this requires zig-zag tactics, which, I might add, are just as effective against a human). Am I missing something?

I hadn't thought to check out that possibility. We can definitely zig-zag Tim long enough. If I'm calculating correctly, if Willie moves onto the mountains along the east coast, we should be able to pull it off with him too, but otherwise, we can't cut him off without compromising city defense. Still, we'll know whether it's possible by the time we're ready to send out our first settler.

Nathan

	07-01-2003 02:02									#217
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We could try one of the two things:

1. Lure Willy on to the Mountain range. Most players will want to explore from mountaintops for obvious reasons, so maybe we could trick Vox into going that way.

2. Compromise city defense (yep!). If our zig zag works, we should be able to get Willy away from either Eye or Hurricane. That city would be without a defend for a couple of turns. Assuming we're going with another Warrior in Hurricane, there should only be a couple of "scary" turns. Will Vox attack once they see our borders? I doubt it; they want to explore, not pick a fight with 2 measly Warriors.

Either option should work to get site 3 up first.


Dominae

	07-01-2003 03:07									#218
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I misremembered and thus miscalculated by two turns in my earlier timing. (Settler #1 is 4 turns after we grow 2 turns after the granary, not 4 turns after the granary). Even a zig-zagging Tim is likely to get to a point where he could go south to get out of our territory as easily as north (as far as he'd know, anyhow) by the time we could build #3 and then #7.

	07-01-2003 03:26									#219
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Should we create a poll, or is everyone basically agreed other than me (and Conqueror)? If we do go along with 7 first, let's remember why we're doing it. If the Warriors are nowhere near the site when we get our Settler, site 3 should become the first destination.


Dominae

	07-01-2003 03:43									#220
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Could anyone first open a new thread with the correct info on how things are/will be/could be.

People who only log in from time surely are finding it impossible to follow, let alone vote for something...

(I'm here all day , and even I'm )

	07-01-2003 04:00									#221
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I have printed out our map and played a bit "PTW the board game" with colored paper balls. Results in the turn thread.

	10-01-2003 06:55									#222
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Sorry I haven't been around much this week... I have been keeping up on reading the posts though (and am blown away by how much is going on here in Stormland!).

Without starting a huge debate about timing, I think it's safe to say that we have to consider Vox as much militarily as we do consider them a potential trading / research partner.

That is where I've spent most of my offline time thinking about this game.

And while I consider Immortals to be a HUGE danger and challenge, I only have one thing to say to Vox:

BUH-BYE!!

	10-01-2003 07:02									#223
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I believe one of the major issues that we need to resolve on the military front is: do we let them come to us, or do we bring it to them first? I've been thinking about this recently, and it's not an easy question.

Tacticians: thoughts?


Dominae

	10-01-2003 07:58									#224
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Without a way to get WCs to the front, I don't view taking the fight to them early in any serious way as a viable option at all. Swordsmen could more or less hold their own defending against immortals on most terrain (i.e. we attack them on the way in before they can attack us), but swordsmen walking into the teeth of immortals? No way. Even if we could gain enough of an economic advantage to make the fight winnable, the cost would be devastating.

In SP play, I've always been a strong proponent of (whenever practical) building up a major scientific and/or economic advantage first and only then engaging in military action. We can almost definitely get the upper hand economically, and chances aren't bad that we can parlay that into a scientific advantage as well once we break their monopoly on foreign contact. The only thing better than going for them with knights before they get pikemen, if we could pull that off, would be getting them to come after us where we could slaughter their immortals in the open under similar technological circumstances.

Nathan

	10-01-2003 08:03									#225
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If they are trading with another civ, our economic superiority may not mean much. And even if we contact the other civ, they may have decided to ally against us (so, no trades).


Dominae

	10-01-2003 08:34									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae If they are trading with another civ, our economic superiority may not mean much. And even if we contact the other civ, they may have decided to ally against us (so, no trades).

I certainly won't take for granted that we'll be able to gain a tech lead (which is why I said "chances aren't bad"), and if we can't, we'll probably need to fight early enough to win before they get pikemen (unless by some miracle relations are good enough by then that we don't want to fight them after all). In that case, we need to optimize our time of attack to get the best production and military size advantage we can. But I prefer to save that as a back-up plan and hope we can do better.

Nathan

	30-01-2003 01:16									#227
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Wow, this thread is getting cold.

Anyway, as some of you know, I'm involved in a PBEM game in which my main opponent is Egypt. The results of a massive battle between his War Chariots and my entrenched spearmen/swordsmen/catapults and horseman counterattackers has convinced me that - at least against a relatively intelligent opponent - a huge War Chariot attack stands a pretty good chance of being butchered (if you are at all interested, check the Strat forum thread).

Sure, Vox is weak. They also have a huge geographical advantage: the chokepoint. All they need to do to make a GS invasion more costly than it's worth is build a city on the hill right next to the chokepoint, get a barracks & walls in it, and stick most of their army there.

War Chariots attacking a heavily fortified position simply do not do the job.

This does NOT mean, however, that I'm advocating 100% trust and partnership with Vox. I think we ought to proceed cautiously, and try to out-REX them while also seeing to our defenses as best we can. Then, we try to contain them. If there is to be a war, let them start it, so we have the opportunity of killing their attack force and then moving to counterattack.

-Arrian

	30-01-2003 04:56									#228
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I haven't seen your Strat forum thread updates, but I'm not terribly surprised... if and when we undertake such an attack, I would want to mix in Spearmen and Swordsmen sufficient to 1) defend while on the approach, 2) finish off the attack, and 3) defend the hill and / or town on a hill.

Believe me, I've been thinking about this since we met Vox. It'll be a *****, but it's doable.

	30-01-2003 05:10									#229
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I think, I'd prefer a mixed approach.

At the moment, a peace treaty or may be even an alliance with Vox is not a bad thing. We have a buffer state, and who wants to hurt us, needs to go through Vox. We would, as good allies, fight at Voxian territory, but at least ours won't be devastated. Also, at the moment, we simply don't need more land. All above the Spinebreakers will be highly corrupt anyway, so it's better Vox extracts the shields there and fights side by side with us against Lux, or we extract nothing from there and fight alone. I'd prefer the former.

However, this alliance should not last the whole game. And it should not mean, that we should neglect our defense. Sure, the GL is an awesome wonder. But what we are going to pay for it, is simply too much. We should REX, build an appropriate military (mind you, not an offensive yet), a fleet of galleys to explore and to attack eventually sighted invasion fleets. Vox is meant to be an ally for now, but that does not mean we should 100% trust them.

What we need to do, is to play rock solid. And everyone should repeat 3 times before sleep "We are NOT playing against the AI". Every day. Even better 5 times.

	30-01-2003 05:30									#230
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I would think that the best way to attack Vox would be through the back door, via galleys.

They have, what, 3 cities now? All are coastal, i would bet. drop what, 2 galleys of chariots at each and boom, no more vox.

Quite precarious, I'm sure that their resources are all focused down towards us, and perhaps near the lux channel.

	30-01-2003 10:09									#231
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When I talked to Jon, he sounded like what they have in mind for a REXing contest (if it comes down to it) is to try to build their eventual border cities right off the bat. That would leave us with three options, assuming we have enough sense not to wreck our own economy competing in that kind of contest.

(1) Let them have the borders they want.

(2) Warn them off, pointing out that certain warmongers among us would regard it as an opportunity too good to pass up if they wreck their economy building mostly highly corrupt cities early.

(3) Let them build, and then take advantage of the situation to attack them.

	30-01-2003 10:27									#232
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay (2) Warn them off, pointing out that certain warmongers among us would regard it as an opportunity too good to pass up if they wreck their economy building mostly highly corrupt cities early.

I like this option, although mentioning our warmongers is a bit strong. Rather, we should mention our relative superiority, and hope they catch our drift.


Dominae

	30-01-2003 10:38									#233
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay (3) Let them build, and then take advantage of the situation to attack them.

I believe this is the best option if they will not listen to reason.

Let them settle useless, to them, cities. Let us continue settling the best sites for us.

If Vox insists on intruding too far South... Theseus would not be unhappy having more to do...

I think it would be a mistake to continue diplomacy with swords in the background. We will not gain a true picture of thier real intentions, only cow them for the short term. If they wish a real, viable relationship, they will respond to reason and facts.

	30-01-2003 17:27									#234
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As any war at this point is going to be too costly (with or without the GL, as not having the GL doesn't make a war possible the next 20 turns), we have to sit it out for a while. Border treaty is my preferred choice, because we seem to be getting what we wanted (apart from one access point to the pinebreakers), and we don't settler this continent suboptimally. Racing is nice, but not efficient.

DeepO

	30-01-2003 19:15									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I haven't seen your Strat forum thread updates, but I'm not terribly surprised...

I slaughtered him. 35 units exchanged for 8 and a broken road. Plus a blown GA for him and a Leader for me. I thrashed him so badly in that battle that he conceded.

quote: if and when we undertake such an attack, I would want to mix in Spearmen and Swordsmen sufficient to 1) defend while on the approach, 2) finish off the attack, and 3) defend the hill and / or town on a hill. Believe me, I've been thinking about this since we met Vox. It'll be a *****, but it's doable.

I believe you. So have I, on and off. But I have just seen first hand what happens when you try to attack a heavily fortified position set up by a human, and figured I should mention it.

Like SR says... we're not playing the AI. We're not playing the AI. We're not playing the AI. There, that's my three for the day.

-Arrian

	30-01-2003 19:33									#236
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Uh, yeah. We are playing VOX!!!

	30-01-2003 19:41									#237
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True. But, even if you say their defenses would be inferior to the ones I set up in my PBEM game, the natural geographical advantage they have goes a looooooong way towards cancelling that out.

Besides, it's best to overestimate the skills of your opponent as opposed to the other way around.

They're still gonna be tougher than the AI.

-Arrian

	30-01-2003 19:51									#238
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I'm not a head Tactician, but I'm hoping we're not going to full-frontal assault a size 7 city. With WCs (and fast-movers generally), the aim is to control the open ground. This allows you to pick the best targets, cut off reinforcements, and pillage (if you're in to that, which I am). Only once the enemy is broken should he be defeated.

I did not study your game too carefully Arrian, but Tom's attack seemed a bit premature to me. With his momentary unit advantage he could have given you a lot worse headaches than an attack on your best city.


Dominae

	30-01-2003 20:19									#239
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Dominae,

Yes, he made some mistakes. Mistakes I don't think we would make. He hit the absolute worst city he could have hit. Still, even it hadn't, I would have given him a major bloody nose, and I think come out of the war on top.

My point is simply this: unless we use galleys to circumvent it, the chokepoint will be a nightmare for us to attack.

Shanghai, the city Tom attacked, was size 7 on flat ground. So, the units inside had a 75% bonus (50% for the size, 25% for fortification).

Now, if I'm Vox, I build a city up on the hill just south of the chokepoint. I build walls. With walls plus the hill, we'd be staring at a 125% defense bonus. The other option is to go around, and they would have multiple shots at our passing troops with Immortals inside the city.

I'm not trying to say we couldn't defeat them. I AM trying to say that defense has the advantage in MP.

-Arrian

	30-01-2003 20:30									#240
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I agree about the chokepoint city and Galleys, but only once we've finally decided to conquer them. Once war is declared, we're committed. But that does not mean we have to strike immediately. While we prepare a Galley invasion, we can conquer the cities south of the chokepoint, and blockade Vox from coming south. Since their lands north of isthmus are so bad, we'll win by sheer Shield advantage. Extending wars is not always a good idea in Civ3, but I believe this is a case in which it could benefit us.


Dominae