06-01-2003 03:02									#151
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Oh also, I think that if we find a warrior/settler landing the ismuthis, We should do the unspeakable and take the stack, get two workers and pre-empt the war.

Mss

	06-01-2003 03:03									#152
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed Silence the Vox. I think that annialation prior to them hooking up iron is in order...

What are you going to annihilate them with ? Warriors ?
We cannot get past the jungle there with WC's what we will not have until hooking up the horses. We dont have warrior code to build archers, and anyway, there is looong way to the isthmus, our archers would be long obsolete before they reach there.

Just trying to make people understand that at the moment we cannot take them out. Better to build a good core first, then take them out with good planning, perhaps with hiring GoW to help if they are near Vox.

	06-01-2003 03:03									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Vox doesn't know it yet, but they are simply improving Northern Stormland for us!!

I'm with Nathan that we should attempt to pursue a tech-trading partnership above all else. We may not yet want to conquer the North for quite some time. Assuming early war is inevitable, however:

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Next, while I still counsel a very aggressive stance re Vox, we have to be ready for a 'defense in depth.'

Definitely. War Chariots will actually serve us well in this game, acting as a deterrent to attacking our lands below the isthmus.

Here are some thoughts:

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Vox' scouts: It seems to me that in the worst case there will be 3 of their scouts wandering around by the time we can close the isthmus. That's not the end of the world.

Although 3 scouts would not threaten us significantly from a military point of view, the information they gather does (if only Civ3 were more realistic, we could cut them off on the way back home!). Thus if we got to war we need to destroy them as quickly as possible. They will no doubt take refuge in the mountain range, so we should organize to corner them somehow. Warriors is all we need for this particular plan.

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Key defensive positions: We need to put Warriors onto the mountains 88884 from EotS

Yes. With extra Warriors I was thinking to cover the entire northern range, that looks something like this:

x
--x--x
----x

This means that have to come out of the jungle onto Grassland tiles, where we can assault them with War Chariots.

quote: Originally posted by Theseus and 87 from Hurricane ASAP. We will also want a Spearmen on the mountain 88 from Hurricane,

87 is fine, and I was thinking 8888 instead of 88. This allows us further visibility, greater coverage of the Desert of Tears, and still leaves a safe path along the mountain range back to Hurricane.

quote: Originally posted by Theseus and finally a Spearmen on the forest 8877777 from EotS.

Not necessary if we block them as I diagrammed above. Really, we never want them to get into the left-side mountain range.

The other point about defense is that we will need to place War Chariots in strategic places out in the open because I doubt we'll want to spare time to Road all the Mountains. Where exactly I'm not thought about yet, but obviously it has to be 1 tile separation away from rough terrain (to surprise them and retreat, if necessary).

quote: Originally posted by Theseus City placement: As I see it, there are 3 key cities we need to get in place. The first would be as currently planned, on the desert tile 889 from EotS; this will expand our territory in such a way as to seriously interfere with Vox scouting, and later becomes a critical defense point (you'll see). The second should be revised to get us horses ASAP. The third whould then be revised to take advantage of the wheat.

I agree with the 3 sites, but not the order. The first city should be site 3 (close to the Wheat and Game), the second close to the Horses and the third up on the Desert. We will not be defending just yet, and we need to keep a healthy economy at this point, so the Wheat site is the best first choice. After that, I was toying with the idea of sending a Settler up into the Jungle, next to the Wheat. Thoughts?

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Research: BW, IW, Horseback Riding.

Unfortunately, this is the best plan if any skirmish turns into a full-blown war. By the way, Horseback Riding has Warrior Code as a prerequisite. I would much prefer clearing the way through the Jungle and using War Chariots the whole way (much more efficient).

quote: Originally posted by Theseus 1. Warriors in key positions. 2. Spearmen in key defensive positions. 3. WCs for 'point' defense (worst case). 4. Wolfpacks of 2-3 WCs for each of our two major kill zones: north of the desert city and on the grassland SE of Spinebreaker. 5. Swordsmen (a lot of'em) to clear the way moving north. 6. Horsemen to cross the jungle.

Re: 3. Why is this "worst case". I think this is our best strategy.

Re: 4. Might need one more somewhere in the northern desert.

Re: 6. In addition to the point I made above, I would prefer just building War Chariots.

Note that things become a lot easier offensively if we do control that jungle with a city. Again, I think we should seriously consider this option for our fourth or fifth city.

quote: Originally posted by Theseus We need to decide how long to try to hold the 2 isthmus tiles.

Until we see overwhelming force.


Dominae

	06-01-2003 03:10									#154
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed That is it people. Silence the Vox. I think that annialation prior to them hooking up iron is in order...

Come up with a specific plan that has good odds of working without destroying our economy (and hence our ability to compete with everyone but Vox) in the process, and I'll listen. Otherwise, this falls in the "I wish we could" category as far as I'm concerned.

	06-01-2003 03:21									#155
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The problem with building a jungle city right now is that WC's can't defend it. We need a reasonable force of swordsmen for its defense before we build such a city.

I don't like the idea of going for horsemen. Swordsmen do better than horsemen fighting in jungles, and if we control the situation enough for the fighting to be on the other side of the jungle, we can road through the jungle for our WCs.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 04:19									#156
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If we place the jungle city directly North of the Wheat, we only need to improve 2 Jungle tiles to get our War Chariots through. Plus, we could put Spearmen in the 3 defensible tiles just North if it (3 Jungle, 1 Mountain), hopefully blocking any attack force for a short while, as follows.

Really, the sooner we do this the better, as they will probably get the same idea. I admit that defending against their Immortals would be a problem in this scenario. Perhaps we could use Warrior Code after all (not a complete loss, as it is on the way to Monarchy, too).


Dominae

	06-01-2003 04:28									#157
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I'm thinking WCs cannot attack into terrain they can't move into, although I'm not quite 100% positive. The key to using WCs defensively is to have a "kill zone" that the enemy cannot enter without being hit by WCs. Assuming I'm right, at a minimum, in addition to getting WCs into the city, we would have to have roads in enough tiles that they cannot get to the city without exposing themselves to attack. (And unless the tiles are actually cleared, if even one of their units survives our preemptive strike, they can pillage a road to provide a WC-proof path to our city.) For anything resembling the near future, swordsmen would be a much better defense for such a city.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 06:09									#158
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leave it to the army to be trigger happy!

Nathan, WCs cannot attack into terrain they can't move into.

Re: the cost of all of this: wouldn't a few (or 1) worker(s) heading North to road some jungle tiles be way more cost efficient? why do we need slowmovers when we have a UU we can use? If going for an all-out war, wasting our GA isn't the problem anyway.

I agree on the defensive position of the desert city (#1), and for that reason only could we decide to build it early. But, it's a lost city, as there is growth, but no production. It would save us 1 turn on roads. But, we can't settle it before the first Vox scout comes near the Western mountain ridge, so I would also vote to put it at 3rd place from now, after either the second pump (out of economical concern), or the horse city. Horses should be fun, but building reg WCs not, so it won't matter if we settle it first or second. (aside from blocking Vox to scout our Southern part, which can be a serious gain as well)

Come to think of it, horse city first, then #3 as an extra pump, then #1 (887 from EotS, not 88) next.

Oh, and one road onto a mountain should be enough, if we block access to the mountains with warriors.

Don't think I don't like the discussion, it is the job of the Spartan academy to come up with war plans. But, as a diplomat, I'm hoping on some trades first, and war later. Vox has to go, but leave them time to improve Northern Stormland, and try to benefit from it. After that, let the Storm hordes rain destruction on their lands, in a short, decisive war, and not a neverending onslaught. Don't forget other teams will race ahead when they cooporate while we are busy fighting wars.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 06:19									#159
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I'm thinking WCs cannot attack into terrain they can't move into, although I'm not quite 100% positive.

As DeepO already said, they can't. I learned that the hard way, in my first attempt with Deity, about 9 months ago or so. I was Egypt () and had horses hooked up, but no iron. Greece was my neighbor and had iron in a border city. I built a stack of 10 WCs and took the city with astounding ease, with only 2 WCs loss, although there were 2 Hoplites in. Now the sh!t hit the fan... I overlooked, that the city was completely jungle, in their half, and had no road yet. I had nothing but my WC stack in it. Alex attacked me with all he had, Archers, Swordsmen and Horsemen and I couldn't even fight back. I lost almost all my WCs till I got 2 Spearmen in. One turn before I wanted to make peace, Alex allied up with Hammu (the other side of my empire, which was seriously weakened) and the game was basically over.

	06-01-2003 06:30									#160
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As fast-movers, WCs can enter the city in the jungle in one turn, and exit the next, without fearing attack. The city in question only needs to clear 2 Jungle tiles to make this work. The city will not be defended by WCs, just serve as a safe passage to cut off Immortal reinforcements up North. Walls and Veteran Spearmen (and a Swordsmen or two) would be responsible for holding the fort.

I'm not completely sold on the idea, but if we do not create a presence up there, we're going to get walked all over on in the jungle. Our Swordsmen/Spearmen combo do not stand a chance against their Immortal/Spearmen combo.

Obviously the best defense is WCs in the Desert of Tears. I'm just trying to figure out ways of pushing our border forward a little, to make things easier in the long run. Even if we can defend well in the open ground, taking down their fortifications in the jungle will be hell.

I cannot stress enough how site 3 is the best choice for our next Settler. The Horse city will not be help our economy very much, and we're still not ready to build WCs just yet. With the great production and growth at site 3, we'll get a good economy going. This is the top priority, regardless of our situation with Vox (who, I might mention, are still a ways away).


Dominae

	06-01-2003 06:39									#161
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From a military point of view, site #7 is better then #3. Think of it: we can settle it before a scout comes near, and if they are going to respect our territory, they don't see our South, and don't know if we have just a few tiles there, or a landbridge over the timeline to a whole other country. Plus, it's on a hill, so easier to defend. No, I changed my mind the past few minutes, site #7 is definately the first one we need to settle, and the horses are only a nice surpluss.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 06:47									#162
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DeepO, sorry to point out the obvious, but site 7 provides a Game resource, while site 3 benefits from both Game and Wheat. Economically, there is no question as to which is better. Therefore the decision rests on whether or not we need the Horses that fast. I say no. Furthermore, by the time our Worker puts a Road on the Horses, we'll have both cities up anyway.

Concerning building a city in either desert location as defense, we have to keep in mind that this transforms our fluid defense into a static one, because we have to defend that city (with at least 1 Warrior, probably more if Vox shows up with 2 or more). I prefer taking care of the scouts, then moving up afterwards.


Dominae

	06-01-2003 06:50									#163
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There's a point to settle #7 first. As DeepO already mentioned, assuming they respect our borders, they won't see our south and without this knowledge, they don't know if there is another civ we could ally with or if we're alone, "in the bag".

This can get very important if it comes to war!

	06-01-2003 06:59									#164
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Yes, that can be important. More important that a rapidly growing economy? IMO, no. In any case, we're very close to getting rid of those scouts ourselves, are we not? They'll never get down there, if things remain icy between us.


Dominae

	06-01-2003 07:09									#165
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Dominae, don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of growing fast. But what do you want: grow fast unsecurely, or leave them in the dark, and be able to take your time growing? If we settle #7 first, we don't need any military in the South... the military advantage clearly outweighs the economical one. Don't forget, BTW, that only 5 or 6 turns later, we get to #3 anyway... 5 or 6 turns is nothing when compared to the security it provides us.

If this was SP, I would agree with you, but it is not... and Vox is a risk. We all agreed that we should keep their scouting to a minimum, well, here's our chance. Leave them in that dark up to the point where they either declare war, or get a galley that far South.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 07:19									#166
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We'd have to run a delaying action to keep Tim zig-zagging southeast and southwest instead of going due south if we want to build #7 before he gets past where it will be founded. (As long as Hack stays due south of him, that will work.) Of course you can bet Vox won't be at all happy about such tactics. We'd likely also have to delay Willy just a little bit.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 07:26									#167
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Nathan, I thought about this, but going south to Tim right now, while it is possible, would lead him in the direction to EotS... What do you think, would that matter?

I agree with DeepO, that the military advantage of site #7 and the fact, that the southern sites don't need defenders for a while outweights the economic advantage of other sites.

	06-01-2003 07:30									#168
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Right now, we need warriors more than we need WCs. Nothing powerful enough to need WCs to take it out is headed for us, and we'll have a lot of settlers to escort and cities to defend with Voxian warriors wandering around. So while I do think it would be good to make #7 our second or third new city, I don't think it should displace #3 from the top spot unless we're planning to use it to cut off Vox's warriors.

	06-01-2003 07:31									#169
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay unless we're planning to use it to cut off Vox's warriors.

That's the point, I guess. They wouldn't know if we have another civ to our south or not.

	06-01-2003 07:33									#170
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Either that (and I'm not sure it will be completely enough, I'm counting on 13 turns at the earliest to buid that city), or divert the worker to build a road straight to the horses. Doing so would take us 12 turns, but it would also speed up the settler with 2 turns... getting there in time so Tim can't reach it. A serious commitment, but we need that road anyway, so not a complete loss. If we go that route, I would like Hurricane to build a worker asap, to compensate... EotS should be alright with its current improvements.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 07:35									#171
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Uh... crossposted while I was counting. Yes, the whole point is that the Southern cities are guaranteed Vox-free. If we decide to trust them

DeepO

	06-01-2003 07:36									#172
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Oh, and I don't mind leading Tim to EotS, they will know it soon enough. We can only delay that for a while, while we can keep #3 permanantly out of sight.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 07:43									#173
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How strange that with all the ability we as GS posess, we can't handle two miserable warriors from a team with members such as Flash...

Where are we failing? We have been doing nothing but reacting, instead of dictating...
We seriously need to look for a gap to at least get parity(sp? equilibrium).
How? Either trough bluffing or action, whatever!!

I still say the warriors must go, they have come far enough IMO.
I actually hope VOX does not move Thadeus...maybe we wouldn't be able to do anything right away, but we would have a clearcut goal.

	06-01-2003 07:45									#174
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Nah, I don't agree with you, Alva. We have so far lived up to our expectations, but we can't account for having some bad luck from time to time. Vox simply outmaneuvered us, because they were faster. We're coping fine.

DeepO

	06-01-2003 07:46									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Nathan, I thought about this, but going south to Tim right now, while it is possible, would lead him in the direction to EotS... What do you think, would that matter?

If diplomatic negotiations fail, I wouldn't mind getting in Tim's way as a means of expressing our displeasure over Vox's hypocrisy. Also, if we don't attack Willy, he'll see the area where EotS is whether Tim does or not, and if we do attack Willy, having Tim head more toward EotS (if that's the way he chooses or go, which it may or may not be if we're due south of him) would put him in better reach for Willy's executioners to deal with him next (assuming we win the battle with Willy). So I think giving Tim a hard time is probably a good move if negotiations fail.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 07:51									#176
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Vox didn't outmaneuver us. They simply took advantage of terrain that had us outmaneuvered before we even started exploring.

Nathan

	06-01-2003 08:02									#177
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True, but shouldn't we able to stop them?
Diplomatically or otherwise..
,hmmm, I know, it looks easier then it is...

I guess I just don't get why they are able to send two warriors (deep) into enemy territory(ok, not really ours yet), hold one to block passage, defend their cities and guard their other? mutual border and explore that side too?!?!

Something just doesn't add up...
What Dissident said about the Barbs, keep going through my mind.

post:
Barbs are random
dissident:
"ah, thats explains alot"
????

	06-01-2003 08:15									#178
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The obvious answer is that they aren't exploring their other side, and aren't all that concerned about defending it either. So either they're lying about having contact with someone else and they have relatively little land beyond the chokepoint, or they met their neighbor quickly but quickly reached some kind of agreement that causes them not to make exploring in that direction a priority. (Or maybe their neighbor is fortified on a chokepoint not far from Vox's capital, making exploration in that direction impossible?)

Whatever is going on, Vox obviously trusts their neighbor (assuming it exists) not to rush them early. That may argue in favor of its being RP, which has expressed a fairly strong interest in a relatively peaceful game. And such trust lets them concentrate the vast majority of their efforts in our direction. (Based on the power graph, DeepO and I are both pretty sure they have four warriors total compared with our five at the moment.)

Nathan

	06-01-2003 09:41									#179
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Building north and then SW of EotS will give us enough time to prevent a Vox scout from seeing the southern part of our lands, and thus from knowing whether we are in contact with another civ.

The jungle is too far away to support a city in the event of an Immortal attack.

Good defense in key positions, a military road network, and WC wolfpacks / kill zones... these are my favorite things.

Otherwise, I think we should focus on (R)EXing a VERY strong core, and building a production advantage.

Keep it simple.

	06-01-2003 10:22									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Building north and then SW of EotS will give us enough time to prevent a Vox scout from seeing the southern part of our lands, and thus from knowing whether we are in contact with another civ.

How does building north fit into cutting anyone off? According to my timing analysis, it would come too late.

The only logical cutoff I see is to go ahead and build our horse city (planned for the coastal hill by the horses), and that works only if we use some delaying tactics. Anything else that could achieve the cutoff would compromise what seems to be a solid, well-thought-out build plan.

Nathan