08-12-2002 01:27									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I wonder what the families of the mustard gassed kurds would say to you, gepap.

They might say, "Damn those evil Iranians!" Since the Iranians also gassed them.

	08-12-2002 01:28									#32
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GePap:



It looks like him. It's not?

	08-12-2002 01:29									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They might say, "Damn those evil Iranians!" Since the Iranians also gassed them.

Poor kurds, always getting caught in the middle. Now maybe they can also ask the Iranians to apologize too?

	08-12-2002 01:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I wonder what the families of the mustard gassed kurds would say to you, gepap.

NOt much, and I wouldn't really care. I have always found this obsession with "what the family feels" pointless. It ain't about the families, never was. Its about high stakes politics or social cohesion. The feelings of individuals are utterly irrelevant to a discussion: at most only popular sentiment matters to discussions of policy. So: SCREW THE VICTIMS FAMILIES

Azazel: My Avatar is Nietzsche.

	08-12-2002 01:33									#35
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Gepap, you disgust me. You completely disgust me. IT DAMN WELL IS RELEVANT.

	08-12-2002 01:35									#36
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It's only relevent when it can embaress politicians, such as the Mothers of the Disappeared did in Argentina or the families of the attacks here in the US.

	08-12-2002 01:39									#37
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's only relevent when it can embaress politicians, such as the Mothers of the Disappeared did in Argentina or the families of the attacks here in the US.

Uh I don't think so. It is relevant to make people take action against the criminals who committed those war crimes.

Also, Argentina has nothing to do with this. They couldn't prosecute any of the military leaders (infact Videla is not in prison) because of bogus laws that allow people over 70 to be under house arrest only.

	08-12-2002 01:39									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel " he says he's sorry" I can imagine seeing saddam caught by US troops in one of his palaces or something. Saddam: "I am sorry, I am sorry" * US Soldier Kicks saddam *

Assuming he's not in Tripoli

	08-12-2002 01:42									#39
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hmmm, never seen a photograph of Nietzsche. It looked similar to Twain, though I never seen him in profile.

and I agree, the decisions would be made without considering the consequences for the individuals. From my quasi-utilitarian (quasi, 'cause I don't care about animals' suffering. ) perspective, The removal of Saddam would bring much more happiness than his continued rule, So the move is totally morally justifiable.

	08-12-2002 01:45									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Gepap, you disgust me. You completely disgust me. IT DAMN WELL IS RELEVANT.

Hey Fezzter: so you are going to go and apologize to all the families of the victims of Operation Condor, and your idols Mussolinin, Franco, and Pinochet? If you are not, then you are an utter hypocrite, and there is nothing I find lower.

I am honest with myself. There is too much human suffereing to bother with the vengance wishes of a few.

If right on this thread Fez, you are willing to say that you support action against all individuals who for whatever reason, have EVER acted in such a way to harm innocent people and violate human rights, all of them, left, right, center, then I will see your feelings as pausibly genuine. Otherwise, your worthless sucking up to "families" is far more despicable than my honest uncaring.

	08-12-2002 01:49									#41
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Hey Fezzter: so you are going to go and apologize to all the families of the victims of Operation Condor, and your idols Mussolinin, Franco, and Pinochet? If you are not, then you are an utter hypocrite, and there is nothing I find lower. I am honest with myself. There is too much human suffereing to bother with the vengance wishes of a few. If right on this thread Fez, you are willing to say that you support action against all individuals who for whatever reason, have EVER acted in such a way to harm innocent people and violate human rights, all of them, left, right, center, then I will see your feelings as pausibly genuine. Otherwise, your worthless sucking up to "families" is far more despicable than my honest uncaring.

You got me there. Also Mussolini is not my idol for the last damn time.

Franco and Pinochet yes I appreciate and have respect for... but I am talking about Saddam, who I want dead along with his sons. Honestly it would save the region a lot of trouble if this evil man is gone.

	08-12-2002 01:54									#42
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I don't give a damn about Saddam. The problem is the way in which the US is going about his removal. They are making "democracy" a weapon to be used against enemies, not a value and a great political system to cherish. They are giving the Arab world not worthwhile role model. And on top of that, I think this aministration is horribly incapable fo dealing with the immensely complicated political realities that coem with a US occupaion and the aftermath. They are not even ready for the logistic of the day aftre Saddam, far less over the political considerations.

	08-12-2002 01:56									#43
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I think otherwise, this adminstration is taking all the right steps in dealing with this idiot, Saddam. The US adminstration is ready for the logistics and is ready for the aftermath of the war, just like they were for Afghanistan.

So I completely, and utterly disagree with your entire view point.

	08-12-2002 02:00									#44
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"Just like the were for Afganistan?" That's a stupid comment. The US hasn't lived up to its monetary commitment to the country yet, hasn't partatken in the necessary nation-building needed to prevent the country from collapsing when we are gone, and the Commander on the ground there says were are losing ground to the Taliban.

This you consider competant?

	08-12-2002 02:03									#45
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You think they were prepared for the political aftermath of Afghanistan

THey defeated 50,000 jahoos with no air force or air defences and an army of mainly irregulars and militias with at best, old abandoned Soviet equipment. Then they set up a somewhat stable government in the center, but with no power outside. The lion's share of the enemy leadership got away,a nd most of the country is still in a lawless state or being fought over by local warlords. And they refuse to extend further help to the Kabul government to enforce its hold elsewhere.

Very prepared

I will not ask you Fez to make an argument: all other have failed, and I think it is rather unfair to ask of someone something they could never provide

	08-12-2002 02:05									#46
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quote: The US hasn't lived up to its monetary commitment to the country yet, hasn't partatken in the necessary nation-building needed to prevent the country from collapsing when we are gone, and the Commander on the ground there says were are losing ground to the Taliban.

Incorrect. I think you are referring to the international community. It is only the US committing to Afghanistan. They are building roads, the Afghan military, schools, hospitals and so forth. To say otherwise would be misinformed and downright incorrect.

Now who is the incompetent one here? You.

	08-12-2002 02:05									#47
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never mind, arguing with somebody like Gepap who tries to accuse me of having no argument is not a good thing to do.

	08-12-2002 02:12									#48
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Yet sadly Fez, my accusation is true. As I have said before, you are very opinionated, but unfortunitelly have failed to show an ability to back your many opinions up with a well argued post melding many facts into a cohesive piece of opinion. Why else do you think your name has become a verb?

If only a few times you did this, the amount of spamming your posts create would decline greatly.

	08-12-2002 02:13									#49
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Your accusation is completely and utterly false.

I will say no more, because I am on probation here.

	08-12-2002 02:18									#50
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The way to disprove my accusation Fez would not involve anythign that would get you banned: I have nevr been banned myself, as close I have come.

Simply, taking a bunch of facts, create a piece of writing in whcih you tell us why you think the US action in Afghanistan has been a success and how such an operation in iraq could be replicated. Doing so would in no wya get ytou banned.

	08-12-2002 02:20									#51
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I find it somewhat ludicrous that some folks in this thread seem to be under the impression that things should be well on the road to recovery in Afghanistan a little more than a year after the Taliban were ousted from power.

Rebuilding nations can take years, folks. Were Germany, Italy and Japan back to their pre-war conditions by May and August 1946? Hell no. It would take the Marshall Plan and *YEARS* of reconstruction, re-education, et al. before those nations had the taint of Nazism, fascism and emperor-worship erased from their official policies.

Take a look at Afghanistan. It's been a wreck since the mid-1970s, and only in the last year has it had a hope of rising from the ashes and returning to stability. I politely offer the notion that maybe, just maybe, it will take *YEARS* of effort by the First World nations to bring the emancipated sack of flesh that Afghanistan currently is back to a state of health.

So before the armchair generals and armchair statesmen go about sticking hot pokers in the eyes of the real men and women, consider what I said above. Bellyaching from a computer terminal is easy. Actually being on the ground in the middle of a destroyed nation and trying to get it back on its feet is a whole 'nother story.

Regarding Iraq, their "apology" has been summarily rejected by Kuwait's government. Gee, I wonder why?

Gatekeeper

	08-12-2002 02:34									#52
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The US has not done all it could to help the process along. We have 6000 men in Afghanistan. We could afford to have 50,000 there to secure the whole nation and provide a safe environment for the re-building process. The failure of the US and its allies has been that. The west has also failed to make the money available to start the reconstruction.

No one expects afghnistan to be rebuilt by today, but to say the US has done its best, has done the best that could be done in this fist year, more specifically these last 6 months, is not being honest. We have not done the best we could for afghnistan. Wich then brigns up the question: will we be as good in Iraq?

Nation biulding is not cheap and easy: sadly that is what the US seems to be trying to do at this moment in Afghanistan.

	08-12-2002 02:36									#53
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The US has not done all it could to help the process along. We have 6000 men in Afghanistan

Putting in too many soldiers might not be the best idea either - we don't want them to resent our presence. (Also, isn't there additional presence by the armies of other countries?)

	08-12-2002 02:38									#54
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I agree with Gatekeeper, "Rome wasn't build in a day" (talking about the coutry, not the city) and...

quote: Originally posted by Calc II which god were they apologizing to, allah?

Allah is airabck (Yes, I can't spell it...) for god, and to think... I LEARN THAT IN SCHOOL!!!

	08-12-2002 02:40									#55
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Gatekeeper, the charge is that it is not being done well. Not only that, but the American commander in Afganistan says we are losing ground to the Taliban. This isn't armchair generaling.

Bush said, "We aren't in the nation-building process." Well that's all fine and well, unless you want to secure the area to prevent that Taliban and al-Qaeada from returning after we are gone. It is in our best interests to facilitate the create of a state that can provide for the welfare and security of the people of Afganization, and we punted on second down. If this is what we can expect after taking down Hussein, then Iraq's in big trouble.

	08-12-2002 03:19									#56
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The way to disprove my accusation Fez would not involve anythign that would get you banned: I have nevr been banned myself, as close I have come. Simply, taking a bunch of facts, create a piece of writing in whcih you tell us why you think the US action in Afghanistan has been a success and how such an operation in iraq could be replicated. Doing so would in no wya get ytou banned.

Articles on reconstruction in Afghanistan:

I was not saying the operation could be replicated because it cannot be. I acknowledge the fact that the Iraqi Republican Guard is better equipped than the Taliban ever were.

Links:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep..._200209264.html

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep..._200209273.html

Quote from Above article:

quote: The secretary noted the United States' procedures for disbursing donated funds are "unduly complicated." But, he said, he's proud to report the United States has dispersed 95 percent of the money it pledged. Now it's important to "identify where the bottlenecks are" and get that money to Afghanistan where it's needed.

Two US Government sources yes. I find them more credible than CNN or any other leftist news station.

	08-12-2002 03:28									#57
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But as that is not the issue here lets get back to Kuwait's reaction:

quote: Kuwait's information minister, Sheik Ahmed al-Fahed al-Sabah, said the statement merely repeated Iraq's previous excuses for invading the emirate. "We believe the apology should be addressed first to the Iraqi people, who are being repressed," he said.

Saddam's dictatorship puts itself in direct confrontation with the US by denying it has weapons of mass destruction of any sort, which is a lie.

quote: Iraq handed the United Nations a huge dossier on its military programs on Saturday, denying Iraq has any banned weapons and setting the stage for a confrontation with Washington.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=...=World&cat=Iraq

It is over for Iraq now. You anti-war peace-niks have been rejected.

	08-12-2002 03:33									#58
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Fez: nice to see you starting a new career as a debater, not just troller

The biggest fault of the US in Afghniastan (and the west in general, but the US is still the leader) is not moving to undercut the power of local warlords. Reconstruction need s stable political system to occur within. Afghanistan does not have that yet, and the western states do not seem to be very interested in increasing their security operations in Afghnanistan.

Also, note the getting a check in the mail, and having it cashed and used are two different things. What that offical states is that the check ahs been sent, not that the money has started to be used (the bottleneck he speaks of)

As for Iraq: the problem is not only military, it is political. Much harder than defeating the Iraqi military and any other possible resistance is dealing with the political conseuqences of going to war in the region (and how the war starts will have a big impact on that) and the atremah of the war in Iarq itself, as different groups fight for power within Iraq.

	08-12-2002 03:38									#59
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Why is it that only the United States gets blamed for not rebuilding Afghanistan. Isn't this a responsibity of at least allies as much as our own?

Germany, that wealthy country in the middle of Europe, has said that it support the war on terror. Where is it in Afganistan? Building roads? I'd like to know.

Where are the French, the Dutch, the Spanish?

And, even if they are not part of Nato, shouldn't the Swedes, Austrians, Swiss and the Finns help out?

	08-12-2002 03:38									#60
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The war lords have the entire situation in their hands, the US does not. Honestly, the US will be faced with a lot of crap. They are starting to train the Afghan Army more and more.

The Iraqi Army is of no concern for me... as it is more rag-tag than the taliban... it is the republican guard I am concerned about.