11-12-2002 13:49									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Alireza, I'm having a hard time pinning down what you are for. You seem to be for everything that OBL is for except that you say you are against fundamentalism and OBL. Are you in favor of democracies in Islamic countries? If so, you will find that the United States and Europe, for that matter, are on your side and are not your enemy. The problem I see though is that you seem to place Islam and not democracy at the center of your political beliefs. This is why I think in the end you are in Osama bin Laden's camp.

Dont try to see everything in black and white.

If I prefer islam to be a political factor, I dont have to be ending up with Osama. Osama is a scandalous appearance and his beliefs are totally blasphemous when compared with the kuran. I am in favor of SECULARISM and DEMOCRACY in the islamic countries. But that doesnt mean I have to abandon my culture and religion or even give up my sympathy with other muslims and translate that sympathy into pragmatic political and economic cooperation. But I look further than the religious label. It is all about politics, about resources and strategy.


Read my words:

The west is AGAINST democracy and freedom in the islamic world. This might come as a shock but it is so. The west only acts as a guardian of democracy, but in fact, in only cares about its own. Why? Because the misery in the muslim world is good for western economies. Our weakness is very important for the continuing exploitation of our countries, if we were strong, the wests interests in our countries would not be the wests interests anymore, it would be OUR interests, and the west couldnt exploit them anymore but pay for them dearly. The last thing the west is waiting for, is the emergance of yet a new economic and political block which happens to be at a negative stance with the west. (not forgetting the historical factor) So our misery is your blessing.

Yes our misery produces terrorists, loose bullets who have lost all hope and patience and take the law in own hands. But the USA and Europe would rather have terrorists (which happen to help western PR in the world very very very much!) than a sophisticated power against her which would really endanger the western position in the world. Now, Asia (China) is fulfilling this role bit by bit, but we muslims will use this shifting of power for our own interests.

YOU are against democracy and freedom in our countries.
The fact is that everytime a great leader stood up to promote more institutional reforms towards more democracy and certainly secularism
(Nasser, Faysal, Mohammad Reza Shah,Arafat,Bourguiba,Qadaffi) you take stance against them because they have firm anti-western political beliefs (which is understandable after centuries of exploitation) without looking at the actual things they stand for. Well my advice to you is to take the bitter pill and understand that democracy in our countries will result in more anti-western governments.
But at least you will have real opponents and a more equal political and economical balance.

Or you may let the fundamentalists take over, like you did in so many countries

Think about it and then you will realize.

The media, your governments , your public opinion is all biased and focused on bashing islam and muslims, you dont have any positive criticism at all. Those people who really try to do something are bashed with the fundamentalists alltogether. No problem, we can take care for ourselves.

	11-12-2002 14:03									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel one of my favorites was : guess all of that ethnic violence in Gujaraat was extreme affection.

The violence in Gujarat is of POLITICAL and territorial nature!

Its about traditional political loyalty, about elections, about the corruption thereof and about foreign interference.

Who wants to understand the complex situation in Gujarat should not yell out of their behinds in ignorance, but ask the Gujarati's themselves about the situation!

http://www.gujaratplus.com/

	11-12-2002 14:04									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I agree, the "Hindus ADORE Muslims" comment almost made me snarf. Serves me right for drinking water and reading 'poly at the same time. Hmm... DL or not? Due to sheer volume of the posts, I'm thinking not, actually. That's more effort than I expect from a DL. -Arrian

Whats a DL?

	11-12-2002 14:08									#124
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Alireza, I am not going to give you a long defense of the West. I think we have been guilty of much of what you say. However, there are many Americans - a growing number, who are sick and tired of non democratic regimes in the Muslim world. We, the US, are very much pro democracy. I am personally pro-democracy. However, we cannot go to war against regimes just because they are not democratic - although I personally think this is a good idea. What we try to do is influence regimes to better their human rights record and to become more democratic.

BTW, how do you feel about Afghanistan. Are we doing OK there?

	11-12-2002 14:09									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I was referring to the great churches of Istanbul, the rest of Turkey, Syria, and the holy places of Israel. The original owners never left. There are still Orthodox Christians in Turkey, Syria and Israel, and there have been Jews living in Israel throughout the past two millenia as well.

Should we refer to the great mosques of Cordoba, Sevillia,Lisbon, Toledo, Zaragoza,Valencia,Granada and so forth and so forth?

It sheer hypocracy to compare a medieval ruin in western Turkey with the significance of Palestine.

There are still Jews and christians in the muslimworld, but isnt it quite odd if there would be more churches than the people who attend them?

As for the Jews, most Jews lived scattered around the world in the last 2 decennia. The Jews who did live in Palestine, are unrecognisible cause they look like Palestinians in language, culture and physical appearances. They often share the anti-israeli stance in politics too!

	11-12-2002 14:09									#126
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why we do have positive criticism. Stop being *******s, get your human rights, and economies straight, and stop trying to dominate the world. "But you try to do it, as well" you say. Well, duh. You can try to outrun other "civilizations", but in the short term, and even middle term future, you have no chance. So you better stop basking in the days of glory gone so long ago that the bodies of those who lived then, are merely grains of dust, but try to do something today, because TODAY, you're nothing but a nuisance in the most of the worlds eyes. America doesn't like you, China doesn't like you, India doesn't like you, Russia doesn't like you, Europe doesn't like you but tries to allign you with itself in it's own interests. Japan couldn't care less about you. So unless you make an impact in the world, you don't matter.

Look at Israel for crying out loud. It's our relative economic and military strength, that has made everyone respect us, although some/many don't show any sympathy to us, because of trying to have your bunch of rubble of regimes on their side economically. You're treated like a retarded child, People feel sorry for you, and try to compensate you sometimes with little geopolitical candy, to distract you from the fact that you're politically impotent.

(hey, people, how was my pseudo-intelligent troll? )

	11-12-2002 14:10									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Alireza1354 Whats a DL?

Double Login. It is a person who logins in as a new member but who really is an old member. They do this to avoid a suspension or to take an outrageous stand on some current issue. It is quite amusing at tiimes.

It is also a violation of the forum's rules.

	11-12-2002 14:14									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel (hey, people, how was my pseudo-intelligent troll? )

Pretty good.

	11-12-2002 14:14									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Alireza, I am not going to give you a long defense of the West. I think we have been guilty of much of what you say. However, there are many Americans - a growing number, who are sick and tired of non democratic regimes in the Muslim world. We, the US, are very much pro democracy. I am personally pro-democracy. However, we cannot go to war against regimes just because they are not democratic - although I personally think this is a good idea. What we try to do is influence regimes to better their human rights record and to become more democratic. BTW, how do you feel about Afghanistan. Are we doing OK there?

The people of the USA are being used by their own government. You are a victim too! The hate you get from the terrorists is created by Washington! By YOUR taxmoney!

I think USA did a very good job in Afghanistan, ousting those animal Taliban. I liked it when the Afghans told the USA to leave as soon as the Taliban is ousted too.

I know the USA ousted them cause terrorism is endangering its interests and destabilizing the region, and has nothing to do with the well-being of Afghans. And fortunately the ignorant and illiterate Afghans even know this.

But I believe the USA should be consistent and cooperate with muslims to get ALL terrorists, Israeli terrorists too , and not only battle the phenomenon but the origin!

I hope Iraq, Israel, Turkey, Saoudi Arabia and Iran will be next, but I know they wont.

And even if they will be, the one dictator will make place for another pro-western one.

	11-12-2002 14:16									#130
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good, I've been getting rather rusty lately. Couldn't even normally troll paiktis on greece.

	11-12-2002 14:16									#131
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Anyone who says Gadaffi promotes democracy must be a DL

	11-12-2002 14:20									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Alireza1354 I hope Iraq, Israel, Turkey, Saoudi Arabia and Iran will be next, but I know they wont. And even if they will be, the one dictator will make place for another pro-western one.

WTF have Turkey done wrong, ok they are not squeaky clean, but they are not run by a bunch of mad mullahs or psycoptahic dictators. They have ELECTIONS

	11-12-2002 14:22									#133
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Alireza, I wish there were more like you in the Muslim world. Democracy is exactly what the Muslim world needs to end oppression.

As I said, I think America and Europe are supportive of democracy in the Muslim world. The problem of course is your rulers have us by the b*lls because of OIL As a result, we can't do much about the current regimes except to quietly suggest improvements.

	11-12-2002 14:26									#134
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oh, and there is no way that the US is going to attack a nuclear power.

	11-12-2002 14:30									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel why we do have positive criticism. Stop being *******s, get your human rights, and economies straight, and stop trying to dominate the world. "But you try to do it, as well" you say. Well, duh. You can try to outrun other "civilizations", but in the short term, and even middle term future, you have no chance. So you better stop basking in the days of glory gone so long ago that the bodies of those who lived then, are merely grains of dust, but try to do something today, because TODAY, you're nothing but a nuisance in the most of the worlds eyes. America doesn't like you, China doesn't like you, India doesn't like you, Russia doesn't like you, Europe doesn't like you but tries to allign you with itself in it's own interests. Japan couldn't care less about you. So unless you make an impact in the world, you don't matter. Look at Israel for crying out loud. It's our relative economic and military strength, that has made everyone respect us, although some/many don't show any sympathy to us, because of trying to have your bunch of rubble of regimes on their side economically. You're treated like a retarded child, People feel sorry for you, and try to compensate you sometimes with little geopolitical candy, to distract you from the fact that you're politically impotent. (hey, people, how was my pseudo-intelligent troll? )

quote: America doesn't like you, China doesn't like you, India doesn't like you, Russia doesn't like you, Europe doesn't like you but tries to allign you with itself in it's own interests. Japan couldn't care less about you. So unless you make an impact in the world, you don't matter.

This is very generalizing. So you want to say China doesnt like the people inhabiting the area from Indonesia till Morocco for being muslims? Thats a pathetic remark. India only doesnt like Kashmir, India has nothing against Arabs. Russia only doesnt like Chechens, but they are good friends with Iran and the Arabs. Japan is a very good client of the gulf states, what are you saying? America? ahhaha Who likes America? You have your eyes shut, thats ok.. That will only enhance the change.

quote: Look at Israel for crying out loud. It's our relative economic and military strength, that has made everyone respect us, although some/many don't show any sympathy to us, because of trying to have your bunch of rubble of regimes on their side economically.

Israel hasnt made itself strong, Israel is nothing but a western expiriment. And the sympathy to you is because you garden their oil with your bodies and are an excuse for the guilty feeling europeans have towards you. Westerners dont like you Jews, wake up.

quote: Stop being *******s, get your human rights, and economies straight,

Uncle Sam doesnt let us! Look at what Uncle Sam has to say about Saoudi Arabia; "a stabile and dynamic kingdom in the middle east and a valuable ally against fundamentalism (????) and terrorism! Yeah right! They have financed the Taliban and thousands of other fundo organizations! Look at Turkey who is killing Kurds! Look at what Bush said about Kurdistan; "It will NEVER be allowed for Kurdistan to become an independent state"!

quote: and stop trying to dominate the world

Why should we? Thats our political right. Especially after the west is doing nothing else but trying to dominate the world.

quote: Well, duh. You can try to outrun other "civilizations", but in the short term, and even middle term future, you have no chance.

Hahahah thats what you think! In fact, you Israeli's will become our Hong Kong, and you will help us strengthen ourselves even more. Remember this, the children of Abraham will unite once again Wait until the Sephardi's constitute a vast majority in politics and society then you'll see. As for the world, we muslims are integrating in one another very fastly and consistently and nobody is going to stop us.

And how about this one, its in the interest of non-western countries (like Russia, China, India, south America and Africa) that muslims unite and join the camp of international sympathy against western monopoly of world resources and technology.

quote: your bunch of rubble of regimes on their side economically

They are not ours!

quote: You're treated like a retarded child,

We ?? Ironic, a Jew is generalizing. Your German masters teached you well.

quote: People feel sorry for you, and try to compensate you sometimes with little geopolitical candy, to distract you from the fact that you're politically impotent.

This situation (which only occurs to a certain group of countries) will certainly end. We are working on it.

	11-12-2002 14:32									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Alireza, I wish there were more like you in the Muslim world. Democracy is exactly what the Muslim world needs to end oppression. As I said, I think America and Europe are supportive of democracy in the Muslim world. The problem of course is your rulers have us by the b*lls because of OIL As a result, we can't do much about the current regimes except to quietly suggest improvements.

That is not so.

I wish it was so simple.

If you want, you can get rid of the regimes you put in "power" (what power? their own people dont support them!)


You HATE democracy in our piece of the world, because that would mean your BNP would diminish.

	11-12-2002 14:35									#137
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger WTF have Turkey done wrong, ok they are not squeaky clean, but they are not run by a bunch of mad mullahs or psycoptahic dictators. They have ELECTIONS

Iran has elections too!

And about Turkey, they have a fascist state ideology, soon to be dismantled by Turkeys own islamists, which of course will be stopped by the west and pro-western elite in Turkey, and thereby ignoring the democratic will of the people of Turkey and only further enhancing the growth of islamic radicalism in Turkey... we have seen it so many times..

	11-12-2002 14:37									#138
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quote: We ?? Ironic, a Jew is generalizing. Your German masters teached you well.

The child has learned the ways of apolyton well. You're on the right path, kid.

... The pupil challenging the teacher... now I am getting all emotional. *sheds tear*

unless, you really believe what you say. In that case, up yours.

btw, I am not a jewish nationalist, but a utilitarian communist. So in any case:

great thread.

	11-12-2002 14:38									#139
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Anyone who says Gadaffi promotes democracy must be a DL

You dont know anything about Libya.

Libya promotes secularism and socialism and thereby opening the door to structural reform!

In Libya there are elections too!

You would rather want Libya than Saoudi Arabia! But noooo

Saudi Arabia is your favorite cause those retard fundamentalists very well
protect your intertests while torpedising every muslim effort for equality, secularism and democracy!

Qaddafi is a HEROE

	11-12-2002 14:41									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel The child has learned the ways of apolyton well. You're on the right path, kid. ... The pupil challenging the teacher... now I am getting all emotional. *sheds tear* unless, you really believe what you say. In that case, up yours. btw, I am not a jewish nationalist, but a utilitarian communist. So in any case: great thread.

Racism (the feeling that your kind is better than others) passes by all ideological differences. A commi can be a racist and thereby have populist political sentiments.

And I meant what I said. You are beyond everything, a (western) Jew and its in your interest to bash 1.000.000.000 muslims (not very communist!) because your ethnic awareness is more important than international sympathy. Because your Jewishness is the reason of your and your states existence!

	11-12-2002 14:45									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Alireza1354 You dont know anything about Libya. Libya promotes secularism and socialism and thereby opening the door to structural reform! In Libya there are elections too! You would rather want Libya than Saoudi Arabia! But noooo Saudi Arabia is your favorite cause those retard fundamentalists very well protect your intertests while torpedising every muslim effort for equality, secularism and democracy! Qaddafi is a HEROE

I know their diplomats shot and killed a UK policewoman from their embassy in London and then went home, I know he has supported terrorists in the past and I know no-one is goint to vote him out of office.

Edit- know i don't like the saudi regime either i would want to see the end of both

	11-12-2002 14:48									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Kingof the Apes Anyway, back to the topic, I am not surprised Saddam is sorry. Look where that invasion got him. If he had not invaded, he could probably have nukes by now.

If he had not invaded, he would be USA's best friend in the area.

He had to invade, cause after the gulf war in which he sacrificed 1000.000 iraqi's to protect western economical interests against iranian fundamentalism his land was devastated and bankrupt and he knocked at the door of the west for the bill. The west acted DEAF and told him to ask his neighbours and likewise "enhance regional growth and development" (I HATE how you westerners put it!!) but the gulfstates were DEAF too.

So Saddam said, "I took up against Iran, and now that little bug of Kuwayt thinks it can handle me like this after 8 years of war??" So he GOT his money himself.

I must say I agree with Saddam on the invasion. Kuwayt isnt a real country after all, stupid bedouin opportunists with their british made state. It was always the province of Basra! So historically , the invasio wasnt so strange too! The west should have help rebuild Iraq or have dealt with Iraq the day he came to power!

	11-12-2002 14:50									#143
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger I know their diplomats shot and killed a UK policewoman from their embassy in London and then went home, I know he has supported terrorists in the past and I know no-one is goint to vote him out of office. Edit- know i don't like the saudi regime either i would want to see the end of both

quote: I know their diplomats shot and killed a UK policewoman from their embassy in London and then went home, I know he has supported terrorists in the past and I know no-one is goint to vote him out of office.

That was what the british deserved. You know how many Libyans got killed by british "security forces"?

So you want to see the end of the saoudi regime??? And pay a couple of dollars more for your gasoline? Thats ok with me!

quote: I know he has supported terrorists in the past and I know no-one is goint to vote him out of office.

He has never supported terorists, only freedom fighters like IRA, ETA ,PLO, ANC and PFLP.

The fact he isnt voted out of office is because he rules well and should stay on power to guide his people to modernity. Even now, most tasks are down by the government and Qaddaffi mostly only has a symbolic meaning.

	11-12-2002 14:57									#144
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quote: Racism (the feeling that your kind is better than others) passes by all ideological differences. A commi can be a racist and thereby have populist political sentiments. And I meant what I said. You are beyond everything, a (western) Jew and its in your interest to bash 1.000.000.000 muslims (not very communist!) because your ethnic awareness is more important than international sympathy. Because your Jewishness is the reason of your and your states existence!

sympathy? communism is not about sympathy, but building a better future, and your "we will bury you"-like statement is not only unrealistic, but also warmongering and dangerous.

the reason Israel exists is the jewishness of most of it's people. Du-h that's the idea of the nation state. . is the idea moral or not is a different question, but the fact is that nation states exist and are almost the only form of state existing.

another thing. Most communists despise religion. So do I . I don't believe in judaism. I don't believe in christianity, and I don't believe in Islam. so It's VERY communist to bash muslims, if only because of their stupid beliefs.

	11-12-2002 15:00									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel sympathy? communism is not about sympathy, but building a better future, and your "we will bury you"-like statement is not only unrealistic, but also warmongering and dangerous. the reason Israel exists is the jewishness of most of it's people. Du-h that's the idea of the nation state. . is the idea moral or not is a different question, but the fact is that nation states exist and are almost the only form of state existing. another thing. Most communists despise religion. So do I . I don't believe in judaism. I don't believe in christianity, and I don't believe in Islam. so It's VERY communist to bash muslims, if only because of their stupid beliefs.

A communist with a religious flag as avatar. Hypocrite communist hahh

Communism, the word says it, is all about international sympathy of the opressed. The warmongering talk of "we will bury you" is very communist, cause communist isnt passive but very active in striving for a more balanced and equal world. Soooo active, that people put question marks at their credibility.

You are right about bashing religion is very communist, but bashing MUSLIMS isnt!

You I D I O T!

Muslims are PEOPLE and Islam is a religion!

	11-12-2002 15:02									#146
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Ok people, time to play a civgame, I will attend the discussions another time!

Bye

	11-12-2002 15:09									#147
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ok. enjoy.

all in all, this DL is very promising.

	11-12-2002 17:02									#148
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You know the frightening thing? I don't think he's a DL.

	11-12-2002 17:07									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President You know the frightening thing? I don't think he's a DL.

He must be please tell me he is

	11-12-2002 17:11									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President You know the frightening thing? I don't think he's a DL.

Why frightening??

No I am no "DL"

I am more active on civfanatics come and look around.

Have you downloaded my citystyles yet? They are quite neat!

Ok bye for now