08-12-2002 03:46									#61
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Ned: The US gets the grief cause the US is the boss: It was the US that started bombing Afghanistan, not the other states you mentioned. They are there at our invitation and with our help. THe US is the capatin of the Good Ship Afghanistan, and in the ned that means the buck stops in Washington. None of the other states have significant strateic interests in Afghanistan, so it should be no ones surpirse that they have little interest in being there. We (the US) on the other hand keeps stating how much we care about Afghanistan and the people and so forth: so our actions should be were our mouth is on this issue.

Fez:
My problem with the war on Iarq is not military, it is political. The US has a horrible trackrecord at being able to navigate the political waters of places like the Middle East.

	08-12-2002 03:48									#62
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quote: My problem with the war on Iarq is not military, it is political. The US has a horrible trackrecord at being able to navigate the political waters of places like the Middle East.

Then ask Israel for help.

	08-12-2002 03:57									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why is it that only the United States gets blamed for not rebuilding Afghanistan. Isn't this a responsibity of at least allies as much as our own? Germany, that wealthy country in the middle of Europe, has said that it support the war on terror. Where is it in Afganistan? Building roads? I'd like to know. Where are the French, the Dutch, the Spanish? And, even if they are not part of Nato, shouldn't the Swedes, Austrians, Swiss and the Finns help out?

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europ...et.afghan.bonn/

http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2...22001105023.asp

http://www.europaworld.org/week92/euaidto26702.htm

	08-12-2002 04:20									#64
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quote: Where are the [...], the Dutch, [...]?

Sigh... I'll let this go as another fine example of American ignorance

	08-12-2002 04:26									#65
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Maybe if the U.S. cant live up to the expectations of the rest of the world, then we should withdraw from the community. We can quit giving 11.4 billion dollars in economic assistance, 4.3 billion for peacekeeping operations and to finance, train, and educate foreign armed forces. We can quit fighting for equal rights and freedom in other contries, we can quit sending our professional rescue teams when other contries have dissasters.

Personally, I would like to keep giving aid to other contries, and I think we should increase the amount we give. America is not perfect, but we do a damn good job trying to be good. (Even with a goofy President)

	08-12-2002 05:00									#66
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They do the same to their own people. In the days following the liberation, a news team stubled across Kuwaiti forces torturing people, with US personal present. There were also retributions against those who were seen to be collaborators. Kontki, Iraq is an officially atheist country. They didn't think God told them anything.

Wow, I didn't think I need to explain that the whole thing was a joke, but here I am.....

	08-12-2002 05:09									#67
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quote: Originally posted by D@VE Maybe if the U.S. cant live up to the expectations of the rest of the world, then we should withdraw from the community. We can quit giving 11.4 billion dollars in economic assistance, 4.3 billion for peacekeeping operations and to finance, train, and educate foreign armed forces. We can quit fighting for equal rights and freedom in other contries, we can quit sending our professional rescue teams when other contries have dissasters. Personally, I would like to keep giving aid to other contries, and I think we should increase the amount we give. America is not perfect, but we do a damn good job trying to be good. (Even with a goofy President)

Yes, the US spends 15 billion in international aid, and 360 billion on the military.....

The only states that live up to the expectations of the world community are the scandinavian states that actually do meet the goal of giving .8% of national GDP over to other states as development aid. (the US rate is .1% of GDP, with the bulk going to Israel and Egypt.)

We are not talking ehre about what the world expects of the US: we are talking here about US aims in Afghnaistan. We stated that our aims were to destroy the Taliban government and Al qaeda bases and help the poeple of Afghanistan remake their country so that it would never become a terrorist base again: we have nmot done a very good job with the second part of our job.

	08-12-2002 05:11									#68
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quote: to finance, train, and educate foreign armed forces.

Ah yes, the Academy Of The America's. Great institution (NOT!)

quote: We can quit fighting for equal rights and freedom in other contries

Maybe get your own house in order first before looking at other countries?

	08-12-2002 05:14									#69
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Chegitz, GePap:

Regarding our allies, it's a cop out on their part if they aren't "interested" in helping Afghanistan rebuild because, gee golly whillikers, they don't have any "strategic" interests in it.

Well, they should. After all, they support the war against terrorism, and wasn't Afghanistan one of the main bases for terrorism (namely, al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden)? There ain't nothing stopping them from rebuilding roads, schools and other infrastructure (hell, U.S. soldiers are doing it right now to a degree) ... like Washington would tell them *not* to do that, prevent them from doing it.

Maybe NATO oughta reactivate that clause of theirs about "an attack on one is an attack on all" and use it to send even more relief personnel to Afghanistan while U.S. forces continue to root out the remnants of the Taliban and al-Qaida. Bush, et al., might be less testy about receiving that sort of help (yes, I read that Bush, et al., were *not* receptive to NATO military aid right after Sept. 11, 2001).

I do, however, think that the U.S. and its allies need a more significant military presence in Afghanistan. It's correct that we can't get much done when we have less than 10,000 personnel (U.S.) on the ground, and we're having a heckuva time getting an Afghan Army trained (so they're of no immediate help ... although that might change down the road). Furthermore, we should have used more American troops when we went after Tora Bora back in December 2001 (but that's an armchair general's perspective, admittedly).

In conclusion, I'm not going to pass judgment on the West's policies in post-Taliban Afghanistan yet. It's far too early for that, but if we're still in this situation five years from now, then it would be time to get testy.

Gatekeeper

	08-12-2002 05:27									#70
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Again, Gatekeeper, you're missing the point. It's not that we aren't going forward fast enough:

WE ARE LOOSING GROUND IN AFGANISTAN!

That's the point.

This has nothing to do with the contribution of allies or NATO. NATO already voted to declare the 9/11 attacks an attack against all. In case you forgot, the first strains between the US and its allies weren't that the US was acting like a bully, but that the US wouldn't accept help from its allies, and when it did, relegated them to secondary roles. Don't blame our allies, they wanted to do more. We wouldn't let them.

What is going on is the US didn't want to committ to the necessary activity to stablize Afganistan. The government controls nothing outside Kabul, and is losing parts of Kabul now as well.

{Font size edited by MtG so as not to blow people's eyeballs back through their skulls, ok? )

Last edited by MichaeltheGreat on 08-12-2002 at 09:07

	08-12-2002 05:39									#71
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, the US spends 15 billion in international aid, and 360 billion on the military.....

With how much of that military money going to defend other countries? How much does it cost to maintain our bases/troops in Germany, Japan, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc?

	08-12-2002 05:46									#72
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Unfortunately Che, our situation is Afghanistan is not as dire as you have hoped.

Check this out: Times: Rebuilding Afghanistan

As for your assertion that US doesn't want is allies to do more is non-sense. The fact is that our allies want to do DIFFERENT things.

	08-12-2002 06:01									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Edan With how much of that military money going to defend other countries? How much does it cost to maintain our bases/troops in Germany, Japan, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc?

The US wants to keep these bases more than most people in those states want them: take the current anti-American disturbances in S.Korea over the death of two 14 years old girls killed in their car in an incident with an American armored vehicle, and the fact that the conservative, pro-US candidat is loosing ground (or the German election results, or the sentiments of the people of Okinawa)

The US needs those bases to project power. Why do you think the US is the only armed force that can place a significant number of troops in any part of the world relatively quickly? Because we have so many bases. Without those bases, US military power would be greatly diminished. We don't maintain those bases out of charity: we do it to maintian our strategic postion and aims.

	08-12-2002 06:06									#74
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Kontki, Iraq is an officially atheist country. They didn't think God told them anything.

isn't isreal "officially" an atheist country?

	08-12-2002 07:53									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Unfortunately Che, our situation is Afghanistan is not as dire as you have hoped. Check this out: Times: Rebuilding Afghanistan

I don't hope for the US to do bad in Afganistan. Inspite of being a raging anti-imperialist, I am also dedicated to the forward progress of humanity. The enemies of the US are dedicated to returning to a way of life that was abolished by capitalism, i.e., more regressive and reactionary. Socialists, communists, and supporters of capitalism, therefore, have a common foe in the Taliban and al-Qaeda

quote: As for your assertion that US doesn't want is allies to do more is non-sense. The fact is that our allies want to do DIFFERENT things.

You missed that my assertion was past tense. Our allies wanted in on the combat missions. They wnated to stand side-by-side with us as we destroyed our enemies. We relegated them to peace-keeping duties.

	08-12-2002 07:55									#76
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The US has not done all it could to help the process along. We have 6000 men in Afghanistan. We could afford to have 50,000 there to secure the whole nation and provide a safe environment for the re-building process. The failure of the US and its allies has been that.

50,000 huh? From what units, deployed in what areas, supported by what airmobile and air transport assets, which in turn would be based where, exactly?

You're aware that in most of Afghanistan, you have to airlift everything in and out? And 50,000 men wouldn't come close to securing the whole country - there's 15,000 villages scattered to hell and back, and even if you had 50,000 airmobile troops (more than the entire airmobile combat strength of the US Army and USMC), most of the country would have a response time of several hours for company strength insertions.

The US effort there (I agree there could be more, but whether there should be, and in what form, is debatable) has to be balanced against the need and ability to deploy those assets elsewhere, and it has to be at a cost which is sustainable over years. The country is in a severe drought, a majority of the bridges nationwide (such that they are) are down, and even if rebuilt, the structural section of the roadways and bridges couldn't support regular heavy vehicle traffic, which couldn't be reliably secured, anyway.

Even water supplies would have to be airlifted in, and you'd have to build semi-permanent facilities to house the forward deployed troops - all of that (other than wearing the hell out of our rotary airlift capacity) takes away from airlift capacity for direct aid and rebuilding projects.

quote: The west has also failed to make the money available to start the reconstruction.

Which would do what, at this point? The country is still a logistics and security mess. That alone will take years to solve, so until then, what reconstruction can be done will spread out slowly from the main cities.

quote: Which then brigns up the question: will we be as good in Iraq?

Iraq is a lot more physically functional and has a lot fewer logistics problems.

quote: Nation biulding is not cheap and easy: sadly that is what the US seems to be trying to do at this moment in Afghanistan.

Given the specific problems in the country, what exactly would you propose as a better approach?

	08-12-2002 07:59									#77
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quote: Originally posted by GePap We don't maintain those bases out of charity: we do it to maintian our strategic postion and aims.

Ack! I actually agree with one thing you've said without alteration.

	08-12-2002 08:30									#78
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quote: We don't maintain those bases out of charity: we do it to maintian our strategic postion and aims.

Ture, but then I don't think most of the "foreign"aid that the US (or other countries) gives is done onlyphilanthropic reasons, either. The result is the same, however - the US provides aid for other country, allowing them to spend the resources they would have spent on defense to other areas (including foreign aid, which starts the whole process all over again... )

	08-12-2002 09:07									#79
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Chegitz:

I'm sorry, could you say that again? I apparently didn't get it the first time around, nor the second time around. Or has it maybe crossed your mind that I don't think we're losing ground in Afghanistan, at least not to the point where we're hemmoraging.

BTW, MtG, you missed the first instance of Chegitz's supersizing his quote. I nearly had a stroke.

Gatekeeper

	08-12-2002 09:08									#80
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Yeah - I'm still seeing the aftervision of those words when I look at the wall.

	08-12-2002 09:10									#81
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It's in the same motive as the dogma: (when talking with foreigners who dont speak the language)

If they don't understand you, speak LOUDER




Commie relic

	08-12-2002 09:46									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Or has it maybe crossed your mind that I don't think we're losing ground in Afghanistan, at least not to the point where we're hemmoraging.

If the US Commander on the ground there in Afganistan says it, I think it carries some credence. Far more than a puff piece about how wonderful we are by Time magazine.

	08-12-2002 13:37									#83
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Chegitz:

Then perhaps we should also have taken the generals and admirals in Vietnam more seriously when they said we should've gone after North Vietnam with everything we had, instead of trying to do things with one hand tied behind our backs. (Perhaps so, I would think.)

Or maybe we should've listened to MacArthur when he began pushing for the use of atomic weapons in China during the Korean War. (Nyet! Nuclear options are not kosher!)

Or maybe we should've listened to "Stormin' Norman" Schwarztkopf when he suggested we should've gone all the way to Baghad in 1991. (Heh. I actually agree with that sentiment.)

Gatekeeper

	08-12-2002 15:53									#84
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General Schwarzkopf said we could have gone into Baghdad (101st Airborne / Air Assault had a forward refueling base from which 101 and 82 ABD could have moved into Baghdad with essentially no opposition.

I've never heard once that General Schwarzkopf said we should have - in fact, he pointed out numerous reasons why we didn't, including occupying power obligations and the UN mandate limiting authorized action to ejecting Iraqi forces from Kuwait.

Chegitz - although it's nice in concept to have allies "side-by-side", it's a pain in the ass in practice unless you have time to put together cohesive joint staffs.

Who exactly said "we're losing ground" - Franks? or a subordinate? Regardless of the truth of it or not, it's a rather surprising statement, to say the least. Professional officers aren't in the habit of offering unauthorized opinions to the press.

I'm not doubting you, but I'd like to see the exact wording, and what level of authority it came from.

	08-12-2002 21:52									#85
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I don't have the exact quote, as I'm reporting it second hand. My source is, embaressingly enough, Al Gore. Now, before you hurt yourself laughing, consider that he's said this repeatedly and no conservative hard-on has challenged him on it.

Gatekeeper, in Vietnam the Generals lied by saying we are winning the war. Furthermore, we did hit Vietnam with everything we had, short of an invasion, which would have brought us into conflict with the Chinese again.

	08-12-2002 23:14									#86
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This is a crucial time in the Afghanistan campaign: the political will within the US to send more troops into Afghanistan if the situation were to worsen exist only today. Once any significant fighting in Iraq starts the political will to send 20,000 more men into Afghanistan simply will not be there, given that it will also be elction season.

As for our allies: there is no political will in those states to send signifcant forces into Afghanistan either, and for them to do it, they still need US logstical support for now. The war in Afghanistan was ours, and while they are handling much fo the aftremath, I would be hard to convince voter in Europe why they should foot the bil for US action. Yes, you can argue about terrorism, but untl Al qaeda attacks targets within western Europe, they wil ahve ery little reason to act, and even then, not within Afghnistan.

Rebuilding a state is along-term process, but you need a good start and political commitement backing it up. We have had a checkered start,a nd the political will to keep it going is diminishing greatly, and a war on iraq will basically make it almost vanish. Whihc then brings into question our politcal will over the even bigger job to be done in Iraq, specially given election season coming up.

	10-12-2002 05:24									#87
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YOU CARE ABOUT KUWAYTI'S?

YOU DONT CARE ABOUT ANY ARABS OR MUSLIMS!

HYPOCRITES

ONE DAY ALL ARABS WILL UNITE, BE THEY KUWAYTI, IRAQI OR EGYPTIAN, AND THEN WE WILL TECH YOU A LESSON.

	10-12-2002 05:27									#88
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Sounds like it is a little late for an apology. What next, the white flags come out? I don't think it matters what happens or who says what, Dubya is still going to have his little scrap at any cost...

	10-12-2002 06:23									#89
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To those who are advocating sending large forces to Afghanistan, think of what happened to us in Vietnam and to the Russians the 1980's in Afghanistan. We run the risk of fighting a guerilla war with the population against us. Such a war is not winnable.

	10-12-2002 07:59									#90
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Socialists, communists, and supporters of capitalism, therefore, have a common foe in the Taliban and al-Qaeda

And what about Palestinian terrorism? People on the left that continually demonize Israel and attempt justify Palestinian terror attacks seem to forget that most (not all) Palestinian terrorists don't just fight for independence, but also for a fundamentalist Islamic state to be put in place. Will you condemn them too? Or are they different because they have a victum status attached to them?