10-12-2002 00:00									#61
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quote: Hip Hop is an American artform.

Hip hop...artform? but there's no denying it's 100% American! No self respecting nation would claim "ownership" of such a abomination of the music industry.

quote: good hip hop

like Eminem? or P.Diddy? Missy Elliot?

You can have your "good hip hop". I'd give anything to avoid hearing that crap again for the rest of my life. It's absolutely horrible.

To be honest, it was fairly respectable when it just started out, but now that it's part of the great american pop culture, it's just awful.

	10-12-2002 00:01									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek Hip Hop is an American artform.

I think it's a mistake to look on Hip-Hop as an isolated phenomenon. I mean, it's basically a slightly bastardised jamaican-style Deejay toast originally (done over Funk instead of Reggae), and it's constantly been influenced by foreign styles and influenced them throughout its existence. Dancehall, Soca, and most recently Bhangra have all helped progress hip-hop, and borrowed heavily from it. Which is part of why it's remained vital for several decades...

Also, where Hip-Hop is the main form of young urban expression, which it isn't in France or Germany, it can successfully amalgamate with local music to create something that transcends both original styles. I'm quite impressed by some of the stuff that's coming out of Kenya, for instance, because it's very much unique and rather Taraab-like. As such, it can serve as a conduit for bringing in influential new beats to the urban community at large.

That said, I dislike much european Rap. But it might be a starting point for disaffected youth to build from, just like Blues was fifty years ago.

	10-12-2002 00:03									#63
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It's just too difficult music for you, St. Marcus. I'm sure you litsen mostly to rhythmically and harmoinically simplistic pop with no ambitions, but some of us what music that pushes boundaries.

	10-12-2002 00:05									#64
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Also note how it's apparently perfectly acceptable to laugh at Hip-Hop but if I laughed at the awful simplistic indie and **** I'm sure you listen to I'm sure I'd be derided for it.

	10-12-2002 00:11									#65
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quote: It's just too difficult music for you, St. Marcus. I'm sure you litsen mostly to rhythmically and harmoinically simplistic pop with no ambitions, but some of us what music that pushes boundaries.

quote: Also note how it's apparently perfectly acceptable to laugh at Hip-Hop but if I laughed at the awful simplistic indie and **** I'm sure you listen to I'm sure I'd be derided for it.

pop? indie?

let's see what's in my cd player at the moment, shall we? hmmm...Andrea Bocelli's Romanza, Handel's The Messiah (that time of year after all), and a soft rock cd with songs my girlfriend wrote, played and sang.

pop and indie my ass.

	10-12-2002 00:20									#66
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And you've got the nerve to complain about Hip-Hop? Andrea Boccelli is a second-rate hack with all the nerve of a gentle stroll through the park at lunchtime. You can't handle music with a bit of guts, that's all, because you're a weak, feeble-minded individual. No fault in that, but don't deride others 'cause they like music that's not been covered in the thirteen layers of sugar gloss you need to distance yourself from real feeling and kinetics, because it scares you.

	10-12-2002 00:24									#67
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Also note that Buck B. runs the music fundie fraction of al-quaida...

	10-12-2002 00:27									#68
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quote: And you've got the nerve to complain about Hip-Hop? Andrea Boccelli is a second-rate hack with all the nerve of a gentle stroll through the park at lunchtime. You can't handle music with a bit of guts, that's all, because you're a weak, feeble-minded individual. No fault in that, but don't deride others 'cause they like music that's not been covered in the thirteen layers of sugar gloss you need to distance yourself from real feeling and kinetics, because it scares you.

putting a dozen cuss words in one sentence isn't "a bit of guts". It's just stupid. Rappers reason that if you can't think of something to say, cuss. Lo and behold, the kids love it. Surprise surprise.

Also funny you didn't comment on Handel though. Too mature for you? I'm sure you can buy the new Eminem cd from a nearby store, kiddo. Enjoy.

	10-12-2002 01:32									#69
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People who think their taste in music is the correct one are funny.

	10-12-2002 01:48									#70
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I appreciate all kinds of music. but for some reason, my body is physically incapable of appreciating rap music. makes my bowels move, head pound...

	10-12-2002 02:04									#71
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Agreed with Markus, I can look at any genre with respect but hip-hop. It's absolute garbage appreciated mostly by kids destined to drop out of high school. It's too bad BB has somehow become caught up in it as well, but the fanciful and meaningless vocabulary of his critiques hints at some degree of tragic braindamage. I could write a new pro-centre with that sort of neocultural hyper post fusion metaphysical bullsh*t!

HOW AMBITIOUS

	10-12-2002 02:15									#72
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Zylka

take 8 Mile for instance. Rap-fanatics praised it's great raps. I saw the movie, but all I could hear were people cussing at and talking trash about other people. And that's considered art?

	10-12-2002 02:21									#73
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There is no more good music being made anywhere.

Europe especially.

	10-12-2002 02:22									#74
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I don't think you have grasped the concept of art well enough Saint Marcus. Even if you don't like it, it can still be considered art.
Hell, personally I detest modern rap & hip hop (I'm old school all the way), but I don't presume to tell others how wrong they are for listening to it.

	10-12-2002 02:23									#75
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On the same level that you could take a sh*t on a styrofoam plate and call it art?

	10-12-2002 02:47									#76
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Maturity, when used in your sense of "old infirm geezer music" is hardly a desirable quality in music, is it? You simply don't want music capable of making people move, I gather from your pounding head comment...

I, on my hand, want music that's raw and that accesses those nerve centres that convey involountary movement. When this is combined with intricacy, gusto in performance and brilliant, multi-layered production, I'm more than happy. And, frankly, since about 1969 there's been very little commercial music indeed that satisfies both qualities... Which is why I like recent Hip-Hop so much. Timbaland is the new Phil Spector, a production genius miles ahead of his contemporaries and innovating on every level, rhythmically, sonically, melodically... Quite simply, Hip-Hop has all the best hooks in the business (together with Dancehall).

I'm gonna quote a swedish rock critic, Per Bjurman, who paraphrased Joe Strummer's comment about Bruce Springsteen: "If you don't like Missy Elliott, you don't like music".

Jaakko: I firmly believe that the current wave of hip-hop is a return to old-skool values. Since about 2000, the music is again centered on the dancefloor after a hiatus of almost 20 years of Golden Age and Gangsta...

	10-12-2002 02:48									#77
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Oh, and I couldn't give a rats arse about the lyrics. Surely the meaning of music is, like, music, isn't it?

	10-12-2002 02:54									#78
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Isn't that a little hysterical Zylka?

	10-12-2002 02:55									#79
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BB - maybe I should check out some new stuff then. Any recommendations?

	10-12-2002 03:00									#80
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"A beautiful thing never gives so much pain as does failing to hear and see it."
-Michelangelo

I wish I liked more art and music.

Rap and R&B use to be better, but now it is all crap.

"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up."
-Pablo Picasso


So true.

quote: I don't think you have grasped the concept of art well enough Saint Marcus. Even if you don't like it, it can still be considered art.

It can still be considered art by those who can see it that way. You can't like everything.

I think Saint Marcus has grasped the concept of art well. He sees that why others like it, that he may not. Same as you have, Jaakko.


Personally, I feel that art should be about doing something because you can, not doing something because you can't.

That is why some rap is not taken seriously and some artist shunned for their lack of ability.

Crap on plate is not art, unless that artist chose to be simple and did not put crap on a plate because that is all they can do.

	10-12-2002 03:04									#81
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Jakkoo, try Michel Camilo (spelling?) great beat, good music, exceptional skill in his piano playing. "One More Once" is the best album to come out in a long time, from any country.

	10-12-2002 03:10									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko BB - maybe I should check out some new stuff then. Any recommendations?

I'd start with the new Missy Elliott album, which combines loads and loads of old-school ideas and indeed quite a few samples with the very cutting edge of production. It sort of brings together the feel of much early-eighties Hip-Hop and the feel of the last few years, and is thematically much more benign as well.

	10-12-2002 03:16									#83
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Japher -

quote: I think Saint Marcus has grasped the concept of art well. He sees that why others like it, that he may not. Same as you have, Jaakko.

I guess what gets me is his tendency to filter even this subject through his anti-American eyeglasses.

	10-12-2002 17:21									#84
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer Nobody claims otherwise. Good Rap comes from the US but you should know that there are literally thousands of different styles out there that you never heard of or never will because of the language/cultural barriers! So long... @Paikti ine ok i geusi mou stin mousiki?

Mia hara

BTW I'll listen to scyladika. However I diqualify them, give me a good fest and I'll be amongst the first to get up on the tables dancing (some cutties by my side required of course )

About Bregovic, he's quite popular. I guess also having the soundtrack for "Underground" was in his favour as was his working together with Dalaras.

However his mixture of Yugoslav and Yugoslav Gypsie music is a very mellowed down sample from what I hear. In his country he is considered rather mediorce and a "copycat" of other more "real" schemes.

But I also like his music a lot.

	10-12-2002 17:41									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed I think it's a mistake to look on Hip-Hop as an isolated phenomenon.

Definitely.

quote: Also, where Hip-Hop is the main form of young urban expression, which it isn't in France or Germany, it can successfully amalgamate with local music to create something that transcends both original styles.

Exactly.

Even when it is not the main form of young urban expression but rather a marginalized young urban genre and a subculture it can still transcent to something new, both musically and lyrically. It has in Greece.

	10-12-2002 18:06									#86
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Copycat or not, he's the only one that has projected this music style internationally.

Me thinks that there is a lot more to music than the popular english dominated world of MTV!

So long...

	10-12-2002 18:11									#87
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer Copycat or not, he's the only one that has projected this music style internationally.

Yep. Although I think it is always the mellowed down versions of any genre that make it out to the international scene. And I think that's no accident.
Even though how could "Kalasnikof" be considered mellowed down, I can't say

	10-12-2002 18:16									#88
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With everyone here so well up on types of music, can someone explain to me what type of music "Happy Handbag" style is. Only, I read it in a review of a garage album and it seemed a bit strange.

	10-12-2002 20:59									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed I'd start with the new Missy Elliott album, which combines loads and loads of old-school ideas and indeed quite a few samples with the very cutting edge of production. It sort of brings together the feel of much early-eighties Hip-Hop and the feel of the last few years, and is thematically much more benign as well.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Cutting edge as in painfully slow bpm, primitive drawn out bass, minimal high end and midrange to compliment (which at that point is about the last ditch you have at any meaningful rythm), and an overweight slug slowly but surely slurring out a brilliant and verbally deficient set of values best left in a filthy ghetto. Please don't tell me there are a few 80's cover songs included as well? TALENT!

This bullsh*t is meant only to stimulate basic raw emotions in those with a lack of understanding for anything remotely meaningful or complicated. For that I will give it credit - as they have obviously marketed it well. Just look at the average thug wannabe loser trying to aggressively chant and bob along to what he can keep up with, and you'll understand.

	10-12-2002 21:06									#90
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Complex, imaginite systems of rhythmical components is hardly something I'd expect someone with your background to understand, Zylka. You do realise people outside your little circle want music that actually stirrs, not dulls? I mean, you're after something with no hooks, no imagination, a flat, lifeless beat and brain-dulling easy-listening rills that you need Exctasy to be able to appreciate at all. It's a bit sad really.