09-12-2002 21:25									#1
	The Enlightened Thread Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Here is the thread regarding the duties of the Enlightened.

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DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS AND TREATIES WITH OTHER CIVS

The Gathering Storm
- peace, neutral
- we give: dyes
- they give: furs
- resources: iron(3), horses(1), saltpeter(0!!!)
- luxuries: incense(5+1), furs(5)

Neu Demogyptica
- peace, ally, RoP
- we give: dyes
- they give: spices, sillks
- resources: iron(2), horses(3), saltpeter(2+1)
- luxuries: spices(3), Gems(2+1), ivory(1+4)

Glory of War
- peace, ally, RoP
- we give: dyes, iron, saltpeter
- they give: wines
- resources: iron (0!!), horses(1), saltpeter()
- luxuries: gems(1), wines(6), spices(1)

Roleplay
- peace, neutral
- we give: dyes
- they give: -
- resources: iron(0), horses(0)
- luxuries: silks(0)

Vox Controli
- peace, friendly
- no trade treaties
- resources: iron(1), horses (1)
- luxuries: -

The "+" sign preceding a number means that the following resource/luxury is not yet within the respectiv civ's borders, but likely will be
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RESEARCH DATA

Current tech
Tech: Navigation
Value: 1344
Reseach time: 9 turns
ETA: turn 167
Current research output: science on 50% -> ~160 beakers/turn

Planned next tech
Tech: ?
Value: ?
Reseach time: ? turns

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PREARRANGED/POSSIBLE TRADE/TECH TREATIES
- [team]: [what we get] for [what we offer]

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ACTIVE AND PAST TREATIES

All of Legoland's trades and treaties can be found in the Treaties of Legoland thread.

Last edited by Tiberius on 08-01-2004 at 21:17

	09-12-2002 21:26									#2
	Industrial Ages - technologies Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I hope there's no problem to edit these early posts. I think it is more useful to post the following info

Industrial techs - beaker costs:



Modern techs - beaker costs:

Last edited by vondrack on 31-07-2004 at 16:43

	10-12-2002 06:12									#3
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Well, this isn't about your current orders, but I was thinking that we should probably start discussing what our next tech will be as BW isn't all that far away, turn-wise.

My feeling as that we should go for Ceremonial Burial. Having temples early is one of the key components of my strategies. What do you all think?

	10-12-2002 06:47									#4
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I respectfully disagree with Ceremonial Burial. We should be pumping out enough settlers that we probably won't need Ceremonial Burial for its temples yet (and will we even build them while we are still in expansion mode?)

I suggest Iron Working or the Wheel to uncover the strategic resources (or the lack thereof). If we don't find them in our area, then we will need more Numidians than predicted to protect us.

Iron Working will take longer to research, but it will reveal the vital Iron resources. If any of these are located in our cities, it may increase production. Also gives us a decent offensive-defensive unit to build if needed.

The Wheel will uncover the horses resource which would add commerce if found in one of our cities. Also would allow us to build the chariot which could help us in exploration (except in jungle and mountain squares admittedly). Its retreat ability may allow it to be a counterattack unit if necessary (though not a very good one at 1-1-2 admittedly).

I would be surprised if we don't have 1 iron in Legopolis and perhaps we might even have a horse.

What are the beaker costs of the alternatives we have?

	10-12-2002 10:39									#5
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Sharpe, you do raise some really valid points. You might be right to say we should go with a more resource-based research path. That will definately help us in selecting city locations, and could give us a critical edge early in the game.

I'll look into the beaker costs for the alternatives.

	11-12-2002 05:08									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe I suggest Iron Working or the Wheel to uncover the strategic resources (or the lack thereof).

I agree 100%. Plus I would add that the same principle can be used to select our 3rd target: Wheel or Iron Working.

I am a big friend of Horsemen and not so much of Swordsmen (mainly because of upgradeability and speed issues) so I would go for horses first.

	11-12-2002 08:53									#7
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When we'll have Bronze Working, if we didn't get it by a goody hut, and if we didn't meet other civs, our choices will be :

Pottery : 7 turns
Ceremonial Burial : 7 turns
Warrior Code : 11 turns
The Wheel : 14 turns
Iron Working : 21 turns
Mathematics : 28 turns
Writing : 28 turns

At this time, Legoland will be pop. 2, and 100% science.

	11-12-2002 13:34									#8
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I'm against Iron working. It will take forever to discover it.

I suppose I'll run a simulation on this, but:
- discovering CB will take only 7 turns.
- in the meantime we will have built our second city and the research will speed up, so IW should take less than 21 turns. As research is speeding up, we could gain a lot of turns for IW (from 21 to ? 15, or even less; OK, this is speculation) but for CB we can't go lower than 4 turns , no matter how fast are researchers are! If we leave CB for too late, we are going to lose precious turns!

I'd go for CB-Wheel-IW or Wheel-CB-IW.

Of course, we can decide that we want the GL and go for writing->literacy. This is what I usually do in single player games, but this is MP. Usually no one researches writing first so it is good for trading it.

	11-12-2002 21:36									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius for CB we can't go lower than 4 turns , no matter how fast are researchers are! If we leave CB for too late, we are going to lose precious turns!

This is an interesting thought. Note that we will get gold in return for those turns, but it is indeed possible that overall we can get the same techs in shorter time if we choose the order wisely. Unless someone produces proof that it doesn't matter, I would choose Wheel-CB-Iron Working.

One interesting side effect is that the same argument could be used to research Pottery. I guess the assumption is that we don't want Pottery that badly so we can trade it later on or research it at a slower rate when all the "critical" techs are ready. Well, if we don't want to build granaries any time soon, then this is a good strategy.

	12-12-2002 03:08									#10
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Future techs : edges and flaws

Pottery.
7 turns. Allows Granaries and Mapmaking.
The good Granaries will be extremely helpful when we'll mass produce workers to get rid in the jungle. Growth of a city becomes every 5 turns in a normal city, and 4 turns in Legopolis. It will also help to poprush buildings like temples.
We don't know the shape of our contnent yet. There is still a chance it's an island, and if confirmed, we might want to get mapmkaing ASAP.
Also, Demogyptica is the only expansionist Civ, hence the only one having pottery. We can imagine trading the tech for a good price if needed.
The bad Granaries cost 60 shields, which is much in the REX period. It would need 15 turns in Legopolis if we build it just after a settler,i.e we'd basically skip a merc+settler combo (which would need about 10 turns to be made from this point, but I don't have any reliable simulation from this point on)

Ceremonial Burial
7 turns. Allows Temple and Mysticism.
The good Temples rock. They produce culture, and make one more citizen content. This is critical because on Regent difficulty, only TWO citizens are born content. Ceremonial Burial is also a cheap tech on the way to Monarchy, which could interest us strongly in the future.
The badWe may not want to build temples in the REX phase : unlike granaries, they don't help significantly our cities to be more productive.
Several religious Civs out there, so, we shouldn't hope to sell it too quickly.

Warrior Code
11 turns. Allows archers and Monarchy.
The good Archers are an excellent asset if we want to rush someone (which is unlikely) or if we want to deter a rush by being scary. Also WC is on the way to Monarchy. Only GoW is militaristic, so we can imagine selling the tech for a very high price (to Civs far away from us, of course)
The badWe may not want to develop a tech which has so much to do with foreign civs before knowing where are the others, and if there are on our continent at all.

The wheel
14 turns. Allows Chariot and Horseback Riding.
The Good The Wheel will let us know where there are horses. This will be extremely useful to place our cities.
The Bad Chariots basically suck : 1/1/2 makes them a unit as poor in fighting as a warrior, and they're wheeled, meaning they can't explore in the jungle / mountains. Plus the only advance it gives access to will only be needed if we are at war in ancient era, which cannot be sure at the moment.

Iron Working
21 turns. Allows Swordsmen
The Good Swordsmen are a great unit, which shall rule all the ancient era. Stacks of swordsmen + mercs would be virtually invincible until knights are around. IW also lets us know where there is Iron, which will be critical both to acquire it, and to forbid others to get it.
The bad 21 turns to discover it is a long time, in which we could almost research the 3 cheapest techs. Iron Working is a great tech, but whether it's worth 21 turns now is questionable.

Mathematics
28 turns. Allows catapults, construction and currency.
The good Construction and Currency will be badly needed later on.
The Bad I never understood the stratecgical advantage of catapults, except that they can upgrade to cannons. 28 turns is a loooong time, especially if we consider the techs it gives access to are the latest techs of the era.

Writing
28 turns. Allows Literature, Philosophy, Code of Laws, Mapmaking. Extends possible agreements with other Civs.
The good Writing opens a bunch of possibilities. It is on the way to Mapmaking (possibly a critical tech), to Literature and its great Library, and to Republic, which may interest us heavily. Embassies might prove useful to locate and spy upon foreign Civs.
The bad 28 turns is a looong time, during which we could discover Pottery + CB + The Wheel.

	12-12-2002 03:19									#11
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My personal opinion :

I say we go for Pottery. As Tiberius said, we might waste time if we don't research the very early techs now. Plus, granaries will considerably help our farming of settlers / workers : these 60 shields will be almost done in Legopolis by the time it gets +2 poop (so we only skip one settler in the process, to speed up settler production dramatically after). Once granary is built, and once REXing is over, we'll have enough turn over to poprush as we want in Legopolis. With one luxury + temple + police, Legopolis can have up to 6 content citizens, and we should try to reach this pop as soon as all these elements are present.

Ceremonial Burial would be a close second, because we'll quickly need temples, as soon as REX is over. But before then, temples won't be of extreme importance.

We don't immediately need other buildings or techs right now, becuase of our lack of geographic knowledge.

If we discover any other Civ before discovering Bronze, this analysis will change drastically.

	12-12-2002 03:31									#12
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Excellent summary, Spiffor The Enlightened!

In the following text, insert IMHO wherever you might consider appropriate...

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Pottery.

I am pretty much tempted to go for Pottery, too. 3600BC turn shows that to the north of Legopolis, across that small desert, is perhaps just coast (unless there is an isthmus, that is)... basically, nothing interesting. It seems pretty likely to me that we will have to expand southwards, into the jungle. To clear it, we will need lots of workers. Building workers (in Legopolis) would be much easier with a Granary... Besides, if there really is just water to the north, we will need to focus on sea exploration - and Pottery is a prerequisite of Map Making... Spiffor's point about the trade value is also important...

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Ceremonial Burial

I do not think we really need Temples this early. Most our cities will not grow past three or four due to extensive settler and worker building... 3-4 citizens can easily be handled by a garrison). Temples' upkeep would just slow down our research this early in the game.

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Warrior Code

This one we should avoid, I believe. If going for a tech allowing attack units to be built, let's go for Iron Working - IW at least reveals sources of iron...

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The wheel

Considering the latest exploration developments, I believe we should forget researching The Wheel as the second tech. Even if we got lucky and had some horses around, our Chariots would be unable to ride through that jungle.

The rest is just too beaker-costly for this moment, I believe.

	12-12-2002 09:18									#13
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Pottery.

	12-12-2002 12:17									#14
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Spiffor

Reading your analysis (and Vondrack's observations) I've changed my mind about my previously stated preferences:

1. Pottery - obviously for granaries and for Mapmaking
2. CB - After Pottery, it shouldn't take longer than 5 or 6 turns, and I would like to see at least one city that can grow big enough (with the help of a temple) to build a wonder. Early culture is also nice and let's not forget that we might go for Monarchy.
3. This is too far away. It might be IW for iron and swordsman, or writing for Literature and Map Making, or Warrior Code if we are threatened; let's wait and see the map first.

	12-12-2002 18:39									#15
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I second (or 3rd, 4th...whatever) the tech order of
1. Pottery
2. CB

We don't really need WC, since our merc. are better. But of course they cost 10G more. Merc. rule over archers.
I would lean towards IW for the 3rd tech. It's good to know where the iron is located. Our plans will change significantly if we have no iron or it's far away. Right now, we don't have much land condusive to iron.

	12-12-2002 20:49									#16
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I would go for iron working and the wheel so we can see were iron and horses are on the map. If we go for building the great pryiamds, which i always do, it will give us graineries in all our cities with out needing to get Pottery.

	12-12-2002 20:51									#17
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Also why you put science rate at 100%, like i said before that we might not need to have it at 100%, that 90% or less will get us BW in same ammount of time, did you find that we will get it faster if we set it at 100%?

	12-12-2002 21:21									#18
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Jack : yes. When Legopolis went to pop. 2, we'd have got one gpt with 90%, and no gpt with 100% (-1 turn to wait)
I should get PtW very shortly, and I'll be able to tweak the slider better, to maximize our profit before BW gets discovered.

	12-12-2002 21:22									#19
	Put an end to popups!

well i will try and do that for you in the mean time.

	12-12-2002 21:23									#20
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I personally would like to soon start making some money to put into the bank. I just dont like just having 20 gold.

	12-12-2002 21:28									#21
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In 3450 BC, we'll put the science slider to 80 %. It will allow us to make 2 gold total without slowing down our works on BW.

Jack : I'll do another poll once we get BW, to know if the team wants some money, or the fastest possible research. Until BW is discovered, I'll stick to the results of this poll

	12-12-2002 21:42									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www I would go for iron working and the wheel so we can see were iron and horses are on the map. If we go for building the great pryiamds, which i always do, it will give us graineries in all our cities with out needing to get Pottery.

Building The Pyramids is debatable at this point. Should we find ourselves on a fairly small landmass, I would not waste shields on anything effective continent-wise only. We will need The Great Lighthouse and Great Library much more then, and possibly Colossus, too. Pyramids are pretty costly and may be worth the effort only if actually influencing a fairly large landmass (and even then, I do not consider them that great... but that is perhaps a matter of personal preference).

As far as revealing iron ore deposits and horse... ehm... "deposits" ... would knowing where they are significantly affect our expansion strategy? I guess it would not. The area north of Legopolis, which I believe is just a northern tip of an island or continent we started on, will be settled anyway... iron/horses or not. The southern direction is significantly difficult to expand across, as jungle will be slowing us. Even if we found iron or horses beyond that jungle, it would be questionable to plop our cities that far from our core area... if not threatened by anyone else (i.e. if being alone on our landmass), there would be no hurry. If threatened, it would be rather risky to plant cities so far away from our production centers. I guess we would most probably slowly crawl through the jungle first anyway.

Thus, I do not think that learning where iron/horses are would affect our strategy right now and thus consider the corresponding tech rather useless at the moment (and "overpriced" - I believe that several other teams research them, so I believe the beaker cost will go down a lot). OTOH, Pottery (which is almost as cheap as it can ever be for us) would make a difference - a Granary could be done in 12 turns in Legopolis. That's pretty fast - we would be benefitting from it pretty soon, actually helping ourselves to get faster through that jungle down there...

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Also why you put science rate at 100%, like i said before that we might not need to have it at 100%, that 90% or less will get us BW in same ammount of time, did you find that we will get it faster if we set it at 100%?

Right now, it does not matter. 100% will get us to BW the fastest, that is for sure. If 90% would get us to BW at the same time (allowing for a running surplus budget), then we will cash our "savings" on the last research turn, lowering the slider as low as possible. As we have very few beakers produced every turn, it will not be a problem - we will not be losing anything... just a matter of cash-flow... as we do not need any extra gold right now, we can have the slider at 100%.

	12-12-2002 21:44									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www I personally would like to soon start making some money to put into the bank. I just dont like just having 20 gold.

What would you do with the money?

	12-12-2002 21:47									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www I personally would like to soon start making some money to put into the bank. I just dont like just having 20 gold.

Jack, what would you use the money for? There are no upgrades in the foreseeable future... and the more money we have, the more we can lose to a surprise barbarian raid. The only use I can see would be in trade deals... but as we are doing great research-wise, I do not think we will need much cash - we will most probably be sellers, not buyers...

	12-12-2002 21:48									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Jack : I'll do another poll once we get BW, to know if the team wants some money, or the fastest possible research. Until BW is discovered, I'll stick to the results of this poll

I was looking at this poll earlier and I was a bit surprised. I usually pay attention not to go below 0, but otherwise whatever it takes to get the tech. Is this what the poll result means in your opinion? Or we really want to slow down research just because we lose 1 or 2 gpt, even if we have 50 in the treasury?

	12-12-2002 21:59									#26
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack As far as revealing iron ore deposits and horse... ehm... "deposits" ... would knowing where they are significantly affect our expansion strategy?

I do believe that this is really the question here, and honestly I don't know the answer. IMHO this is something that you really can't answer without knowing a lot more about the surroundings than we know now. I can easily imagine crapy terrain that would not be settled early unless it has a critical resource.

quote: (and "overpriced" - I believe that several other teams research them, so I believe the beaker cost will go down a lot). OTOH, Pottery (which is almost as cheap as it can ever be for us)

Can you explain this a bit more in detail (in a PM if you think it's obvious for everyone else)? Does the amount of gold you have to put into researching a tech get lower because others researched it? Is there an exact formula that describes this decrease?

Or you simply mean "we will be able to buy this cheap because lot's of people will have it"?

	12-12-2002 22:01									#27
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well you dont need to do a poll. I am not saying to turn the tax rate up now. BUt I just like to have gold arround just in case something goes wrong. YOu never know when you need it. I always like have large pot for rainy day. But I am just saying I would like to have it. Helpfull also when trading with other civs too.

	12-12-2002 22:12									#28
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quote: Originally posted by delmar I was looking at this poll earlier and I was a bit surprised. I usually pay attention not to go below 0, but otherwise whatever it takes to get the tech. Is this what the poll result means in your opinion? Or we really want to slow down research just because we lose 1 or 2 gpt, even if we have 50 in the treasury?

Since there is an option with using deficit spending, the results of the poll mean we have an even blance. We should make 0 gpt, no more and no less.

	12-12-2002 22:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by delmar Can you explain this a bit more in detail (in a PM if you think it's obvious for everyone else)? Does the amount of gold you have to put into researching a tech get lower because others researched it? Is there an exact formula that describes this decrease? Or you simply mean "we will be able to buy this cheap because lot's of people will have it"?

I was referring to the "cheapening" of techs due to general knowledge. The more civs you have a contact with know a certain tech, the cheaper it is to research it. More details here.

	13-12-2002 06:30									#30
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I will be away from the Internet this week end, starting tomorrow. By any luck, I may have PtW when I leave, and I should be able to train a bit, but I'll most likely won't be able to post orders or analyses
If the situation changes significantly during this weekend, I count on you to take over me efficiently. If nothing really changes (like we don't have BW by the goody hut, and we don't find any neighbour), my orders are :

3450 BC
Put the science slider to 80%

3350 BC
Put the science slider to 100%
Research pottery

If there seems to be much disagreement about pottery during my absence, please set up a poll, with my a link to this thread, thx.