 |
| |
|
| |
|
|
Tiberius
|
 |
Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:24
|
|
I'll start my observations in reverse order:
4. Great deal. I forgot about the Voxes getting a free tech.
3. Obviously it is better not to ask for money if they agree with our trade with the Voxes.
Actually, 3 and 4 can be combined in a threesome deal: on turn X, we deliver Construction + Currency, the GS delivers Republic, while the turn after, Voxes gives both of us us a free tech plus some cash (they could stay on research 0 from now on until then). The cash part is not that important, but it'd be unfair if they stockpiled cash 12-15 turns without sharing a part of it. Either this combined treaty or 3 and 4 separately, but I think this part can be already offered to the GS (we can ask them if they want to make it threesome).
2. That's in essence what I suggested, only you've added Currency in the deal. If we keep researching Currency, that's the way to go. I thought about the timing too, but I'm not sure if they will want to wait that much (GS will have Republic in ... like 18 turns?).
1. About this one, I have the same suspicion as Sharpe: it won't last that long. First of all, I really doubt that ND would be so many turns away from Currency as suggested. That would mean that they are researching on aprox. 50-60%, which I really doubt. Once Currency will be here, it will be very difficult to hold on the teams. I'd say 12 to 15 turns. However, being the only one with Construction, it might succed.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
 |
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
1. About this one, I have the same suspicion as Sharpe: it won't last that long. First of all, I really doubt that ND would be so many turns away from Currency as suggested. That would mean that they are researching on aprox. 50-60%, which I really doubt. Once Currency will be here, it will be very difficult to hold on the teams. I'd say 12 to 15 turns. However, being the only one with Construction, it might succed. |
I believe that the fact we will be the only team with Construction makes it quite safe to assume we will be able to delay the world going medieval times at least for the number of turns it would otherwise take GoW to research Construction on their own. Irrespective of whether we can get GoW to agree to the deal we propose here or not, nobody would be able to get Construction faster then them - everybody else is either researching something else ATM or not researching at all:
GoW: researching Construction, should be done no earlier than in 15 turns
ND: researching Currency, thus unable to get Construction soon enough to throw our plan off the balance; if Steve read the map correct, their maximum research output may be like 20 beakers per turn... and if they are not researching at full speed (may be the case, as they need cash to get other techs), the info we got from the mysterious GS may very well be correct. And even if they are done with Currency earlier, they would still be unable to get Construction prior to GoW...
RPers: going for the Monarchy (at least that is what they claim - if not, fvck them, since they'd be blatantly lying to us)
Voxes: too weak research-wise to be faster than GoW
GS: researching Republic, highly unlikely to get it earlier than in 15 turns
So, I would really assume safe to expect we would be able to hold everybody off for at least the number of turns we agree upon with GoW (re: the sale of the Construction to them). That should allow us to have a nice little headstart (3-5 turns) on Engineering, probably, finishing it just about when someone else finishes Feudalism (Feu is slightly cheaper than Eng), giving us another great opportunity to cooperate - we go for the Invention then, the other team goes for the Chivalry. Not mentioning that Voxes may go after Monotheism, trading it to us for Engineering and some cash.
Well, I believe that we shoud start rolling! 
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Tiberius
|
|
Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
So, I would really assume safe to expect we would be able to hold everybody off for at least the number of turns we agree upon with GoW (re: the sale of the Construction to them). |
I agree on that. My concern is the timing with the GS. Should we make the exchange with GoW in 15 turns and GS discovering the Rep. in 18 turns, they will be the last team to advance to the next age, and they won't be very happy about this. Plus, the ND and especially the RP, once they find out we have Constr, will pressure us for a deal. I really don't want to make the GS the last team to get these techs.
May I suggest this schedule, to make GS happy and grateful:
1. We agree with the GoW on the number of turns for the tech-for-money deal (say 15) and on turn 15 we grant them Currency+Construction, while they give us, say, 200-250 gold (maybe a world map, too  ). (how much can they save/turn? 24? that would be 360 gold in 15 turns; half of it is 180, plus 60 for Currency-> 240) They should be happy with this deal: they get Constr+Currency+at least 100 gold. Of course, no whoring clause.
2. On the same turn when we give Constr and Currency to GoW, we gift them to the GS and Luxes (we have to, to let Vox advance to the next age and get their free tech).
3. Next turn, Vox gift us and GS Monotheism (isn't this their free tech?) plus 2/3 (1/3+1/3) of the money they made in the meantime
4. GS gift us and to the Voxes the Republic when they are ready with it.
Other than that, do you agree with the proposed 3some treaty, with the GS and Vox? It could mean some extra cash and would sound great: all of us working together, closely cooperating for our common purpose: to avoid a strong Bob?
Last edited by Tiberius on 17-03-2003 at 15:48
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
|
|
I would first try finding out what is the GS's ETA for Republic... it should be possible to fine tune the deals so that everything happens within two turns, possibly.
The problem with your plan is that letting GS enter the medieval times prior to them finishing the research on the Republic is almost as good as waiting for the Republic deal without giving them the techs in advance. They would still not be able to start researching medieval techs in time, so that would most probably be a big problem for them.
I believe we should try making a deal with GoW that will make them stockpile cash until GS is done with the Republic. Even if they enter medieval times few turns later, they should be okay with it, since they will at least save a bit more cash we would not ask for. 
We would also promise that we would not let ND & RPers go medieval earlier than our trading partners, of course.
So, I believe that the precise timeline might be:
GoW
1) as soon as we get Currency, we sell it to GoW for 60 gold (no whoring clause included)
2) one turn before GS is done with Republic, GoW offers us gold for Constr+Republic (not accepting the deal yet), we counter by throwing in Construction and accepting, they accept on the next turn (on the turn GS discovers Rep)
3) we gift Rep to GoW on the very turn we get it from GS (means GoW would get it one turn after it is discovered)
GS
1) as soon as we get Currency, we gift it to them (no whoring clause included)
2) one turn prior to them discovering Republic, we gift them Construction
3) as soon as they get Republic, they gift it to us (and Voxes, probably), granting us the eternal exclusivity to trade it to GoW & RPers
Voxes
1) as soon as we get Currency, we gift it to them (no whoring clause included)
2) one turn prior to GS discovering Republic, we gift them Construction (they may pay us & GS whatever we settle on... I would be okay even with no cash, as the medieval free tech is quite a big deal, but that's a minor detail only at the moment)
3) on the next turn, they gift us (and GS, probably) Monotheism (no whoring clause included)
We may ask for a no-whoring clause on Construction, too... not sure about that ATM.
I would leave it up to GS & Vox to arrange their Rep for Monotheism trade.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
|
|
Well, as we would be giving everybody but GoW Currency effectively for free (at that very moment, not considering future consequences), I do not think they would trade for it with ND, even if ND discovered it few turns earlier.
GoW would be told/obliged to not trade for Currency with ND. As we would have the upper hand thanks to having Construction, I believe they would agree.
DeepO of GS was PMed by redstar, the PM outlining basics of this deal, asking for a chat to be arranged. GhengisFarb of GoW was PMed by me, the PM outlining the very basics of the deal, asking for a chat to be arranged. I believe we should contact Voxes only after GS agrees (generally) to take the deal.
Once we know GoW and GS are basically happy about the deal, we would put/discuss the exact treaty wordings together, finalize the deal with Voxes, and let everything else to ambassadors.
Sorry for taking over, q_m & Zargon, but time is of crucial importance now - every single turn GoW wastes beakers researching the Construction hurts. The save is almost with us again, so we need to act fast.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
Hmm, did you send the PMs before discussing the treaties in the forum? I'm not very happy about this, you know ... |
PMs were sent around 11:40am GMT today, after discussing the idea here and getting the input/approval of yours, ZargonX, Kloreep, lmtoops, and Sharpe. This was too big to act without any consultations, but urgent enough to act as fast as possible. I hope this is ok.
quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
Anyway, sorry for the late idea, but don't you think we could ask the GoW one future tech in return for the Republic? Like Chivalry ? (and less money, acoordingly) Maybe they'd agree. They could save more money this way, and they may prefer to stockpile cash for upgrades (the Riders are coming * ouch * ). It'd be a great treaty for them, even so. I don't know by head exactly how expensive Chivalry is, but it shouldn't be too expensive. |
Well, I would not push GoW... they might mess things up if they decide to keep researching Construction or trade for Currency with ND... they would be able to finish it in like 15 turns now (after we lowered the beaker cost by popping it out of the hut), messing up with the rest of our trade plan. Let them be very happy about the deal... shoud also help us keep them off Legos. We may just very politely point out that it would make us happy if they refrain from exploring around our landmass... Do not forget that they end up with one tech less (Monotheism), so the whole deal should have an "extra" for them, too (in this case, the cash they will likely have to spend on getting Monotheism).
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
|
|
Agreed, I would collect the cash, too. Investing into the research of Feudalism or Engineering would most likely be suboptimal, as we do not really need those techs right now - unlike Theology that will help us maintain a lead in "our" research branch. Plus, we'll need to secure Theology for Sistine's (even though I admit we will not be able to build it that fast...).
Collecting like 60+ gold during those two turns means we will be able to rush 15+ shields (2 turns) out of the 80-shield Library build in Legopolis. The Library will increase the research output there by up to 6 beakers, which alone makes up for 12 beakers... not mentioning the fact that we will be able to continue using Legopolis as a settler farm a bit longer...
I very much agree that saving up cash is the way to go.
BTW, what I have just written about rush building in Legopolis... once in Republic, it may be a good idea to drop building Mercs there (building them somewhere else, like in Panama), always spending 4-5 turns on building a city improvement, rushing the rest with cash then. This way, Legopolis would still be useful as our primary REXing city, while still benefitting from improvements like Temple, Library, and Marketplace.
Rough estimates (1 shield costs 4 gold):
Marketplace: cost 100, actually built 35 (5 turns), rest rushed for 260 gold
Library: cost 80, actually built 35 (5 turns), rest rushed for 180 gold
Temple: cost 60, actually built 35 (5 turns), rest rushed for 100 gold
Even this is what we would have money enough for (540 gold altogether). Plus, we can improve the whole thing by letting Legopolis grow a bit more (like building a Temple the "hard way" first), letting it operate at pop 5-6 instead of at pop 4-5. Then, it would look like:
Marketplace: cost 100, actually built 40-45 (5 turns), rest rushed for 180-200 gold
Library: cost 80, actually built 40-45 (5 turns), rest rushed for 140-160 gold
Temple: cost 60, actually built 40-45 (5 turns), rest rushed for 60-80 gold
Total gold needed: 380-440
This is by no means a solid proposal, I am just trying to show what kind of gold costs we should expect, if we try keeping Legopolis in REX mode without sacrificing its infrastructure...
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Tiberius
|
|
Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:24
|
|
1. What we know/suppose:
quote:
ND lack Currency, Republic, Monarchy, and Monotheism (they shot themselves in the foot turning down our Currency deal)
RPers lack Republic & Monotheism (another good news)
GS lack Monarchy
GoW lack Monarchy
Voxes lack Monarchy
|
We are researching Theology, will be ready in ~ 24 turns
GS is researching Feudalism, ready in ~ 18 turns (cheaper tech+faster research than ours), then go for Chivalry; Being religious, changing to Republic in one turn could speed up their research considerably
GoW: most probably Feudalism->Chivalry, but slower than GS
The Voxes are stockpiling money
The ND are still researching Currency, will receive Constr from GoW, it doesn't really matters what they are doing after, but we will have to find out
RPs? Maybe Engineering, knowing that the others are after something else? Shouldn't be ready earlier than 30 turns; they are paying us 10gpt, plus have a big army; I think their tech slider is at 70 % max.)
----------
2. Possible trades
(the most obvious and simple ones, not involving future cooperations):
1. Theology to Vox for money (that was a difficult one )
2. Theology to RP for Engineering (there is 100 beakers difference between them, so maybe we could ask for some money, but not too much); or maybe instead of gold, "No Sistine" clause
3. GoW: Theology for Feudalism + Non Agression & Settlement Pact (Riders, ouch!).
4. GS: Theology for Chivalry + gold? ( I suppose they will propose Feud+Chiv for Theol+gold, but if we can do the GoW trade for Feud, then why pay gold to them  )
5. ND: I'm a little helpless here. We can try to sell Th. to ND for money or give some other team resell rights; they will research feudalism, I suppose, but they are falling back in tech because their lack of innitiative in active tech trading.
----------
If we change to Republic after Theology, with the 5 turns delay we should start working on the new tech (Education) aproximately in the same time with GS finishing Chivalry and RP Engineering. I wouldn't dare to plan further, as it depends very much on future events (wars, alliances, etc).
Last edited by Tiberius on 02-04-2003 at 16:59
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
GoW: most probably Feudalism->Chivalry, but slower than GS |
We know almost for sure that GoW is after Feudalism and Chivalry. GF expressly stated that in a chat with me.
quote:
1. Theology to Vox for money (that was a difficult one ) |
I do not think this is doable... as Voxes are stockpiling money because of their war plans. They will not be willing to "waste" them on a tech not related to military.
quote:
2. Theology to RP for Engineering (there is 100 beakers difference between them, so maybe we could ask for some money, but not too much); or maybe instead of gold, "No Sistine" clause |
Good idea re: Sistine, though I would not mention it in the beginning. Let they start suggesting a plain swap, we counter/object pointing out the beaker difference, and eventually reluctantly agree on condition they agree to the "No Sistine" clause. Also, this would require getting Monotheism resale rights from Voxes (should not be difficult). But I would not mention this unless they bring it up - let THEY secure Monotheism for themselves, if they wish to get a favourable deal from us.
quote:
3. GoW: Theology for Feudalism + Non Agression & Settlement Pact (Riders, ouch!).
4. GS: Theology for Chivalry + gold? ( I suppose they will propose Feud+Chiv for Theol+gold, but if we can do the GoW trade for Feud, then why pay gold to them ) |
I would be very wary of making long term deals with GS. As we've found out, they're greedy bastards. It is best to deal with them when they are under pressure... as there will be more than one team with Feu+Chiv and we will not need these techs too fast, the price will most probably go down.
I would pretty much prefer making a long-term deal with GoW, trading Theology+gold for Feu+Chiv. They should be aware of that GS will get it faster, so getting a deal with us might make them be reasonable about the gold balance.
quote:
If we change to Republic after Theology, with the 5 turns delay we should start working on the new tech (Education) aproximately in the same time with GS finishing Chivalry and RP Engineering. I wouldn't dare to plan further, as it depends very much on future events (wars, alliances, etc). |
Agreed, Education is our natural next choice.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Tiberius
|
|
Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
So the first thing I'd do would be to talk to RPers about what kind of a deal they'd want for Engineering... I have also suggested the idea of going for Engineering at 1 scientist or 10% to BetaHound... didn't flat refused it...
...
1) try arranging an Engineering deal with Voxes - let they research it at minimum costs for 40 turns. We'd agree to pay them whatever they'd be spending on the research (or just waive part of the loan). Once they would be over, we'd give them Theology for free.
2) try arranging an Engineering deal with RPers - ask them what they'd wish to get for it. No proposal at this moment - let they start...
|
I don't know; why would we make deals for engineering with 2 teams? If the RP agrees to trade Eng. for Th, than it's a good deal. So I say, talk with the RP first, and only if it fails, talk with Vox
quote:
I would prefer making separate deals, like trade Theology for Feudalism with GS and Chivalry for Theology with GoW |
 as opposed to my proposal?! I was suggesting the exact same thing. ( edit: no wait, I was suggesting the opposite: Feud with GoW and Chiv with GS. The idea is that I'd like to make the deal with GoW now and wait to make it with GS when they will be close to finish Chivalry)
As for the balance payment, like I said I wouldn'task for money from GoW but a Non-agression Pact, while I'd ask for money from GS.
quote:
3) talk to GoW and GS about what their ideas of a deal involving Feudalism & Chivalry would be. No proposals, let they start... |
I wouldn't talk with the GS about this deal, yet. I know what their proposal will be: We shouldn't trade Theology with Bob, but trade it (plus money) for Feud+Chivalry.
Last edited by Tiberius on 02-04-2003 at 17:24
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:24.
Apolyton Time is 00:24. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
17-03-2003 07:23
(I hear the violins playing and lot of crying).
|