19-01-2003 22:35									#61
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Well, that depends on what you can offer. Map Making for Wheel would be a great deal anyone would happily accept

MapMaking is worth more than the Wheel and Iron Working together, purely from the cost point of view (12 versus 4+6). And if we are not under the threat of an attack, and especially if we are on our own continent, then other considerations (like how quickly we can research it) are not that relevant, IMHO.

Excellent points otherwise.

	19-01-2003 22:59									#62
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quote: Originally posted by delmar Vondrack: couldn't find minimaps (pointer would be appreciated), except the RP one, from which I can't see squat.

GoW in the North, RPers south of them (cyan), GS to the right. ND supposed to be east of GoW & N of RPers, LI presumably further east of ND. Whereabouts of Voxes unknown.

	19-01-2003 23:06									#63
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Well, I guess from this mini map it is pretty clear that Conan should go straight to the East. If your assumptions are right, then the Voxes are most likely to be there. Only question is: are they separated from us by water?

	20-01-2003 00:37									#64
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quote: Sharpe, I apologize for using rhetorical "questions" sometimes... if it looks like I am trying to make an idiot of you, it's just my inability to put it right.

Don't worry Radek, if I thought you were trying to make an idiot out of me I would let you know As it is we are just having a lively debate - and as I have said before, if that debate results in more discussion and a decision which most agree with - so much the better.

I am concerned though that there is more talk of delaying these techs even further - Map making then Literature - that would be a tremendous error - would put us 25-30 turns away from beginning to research those techs if we don't trade for them.

Admittedly I didn't see your latest report about last turn - if Conan has discovered the SE coastline , it surely does indicate that we are alone - and that has both its good and bad points. Map making should be strongly considered. However, we should give consideration to the other techs as well.

We are operating in the dark here somewhat - we talk about great and poor locations for cities when we don't even know where two key resources are located (and if they are even on our continent - unlikely though that may be).

PS wonder if we should stop using our own words against each other

	20-01-2003 01:10									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe I am concerned though that there is more talk of delaying these techs even further - Map making then Literature - that would be a tremendous error - would put us 25-30 turns away from beginning to research those techs if we don't trade for them.

We should clarify why we (you ) feel that these resources are so important. I personally don't think that the extra commerce/shield provided by horses/iron is a huge advantage.

I would start researching Iron Working and The Wheel only if there was a threat that someone else can claim those resources before we do. If we confirm that we are alone on our continent, then researching Map Making clearly won't put us in danger of losing those resources as anyone wanting to settle on our continent will have to research Map Making as well (and they probably won't go there straigth so we can finish it before they can, plus we are here already while they have to build a galley, explore, build a settler, ship the settler here -- why would they do that in the first place is also beyond me, unless their island is really small, etc, etc).

If we meet someone on our land, I agree that we should immediately trade for or (if that fails) research IW and the Wheel.

If we confirm that we are alone, then I simply wouldn't bother researching those techs at all, until we meet someone who has Map Making already. At that point, we should again try to tread for IW/Wheel, or if that fails then start researching them immediately after we finished the current tech (ie. even then I don't think we should be in a great hurry).

This is already somewhat outside of the scope of research but I would try to make sure that we actually have a settler by the time we research either of these resource techs, so that we can really claim any resource as quick as possible.

Edit: Finally, without trying to play down the importance of horses/iron, let me also point out that having the Mercenary as a UU and focusing on a peaceful playing style greatly reduces the impact of (potentially) not having access to these resources. On the defensive side, we will be perfectly fine without either of them, as the next best defender is the Musketman which requires saltpeter not iron. On the offensive side, horses wouldn't be bad for their retreat capability, but archers/longbowmen are not that much worse either. I would be worried about only the cavalry (horses) and railroads (iron). Those are on the other hand far away and if we have a reasonably sized empire by then, then we will be able to trade some other resources (coal seems to be a safe guess, looking at that jungle) for the missing ones.

	20-01-2003 02:32									#66
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Looking at this argument, I think we need to decide if we shoot for the Great Library. If we do, the value of some techs goes down even further, as we will presumably get them through the GL for free later. I'll post a poll.

	25-01-2003 23:53									#67
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Thought this thread needed bumping up.

For informational purposes these are the base costs for the remaining Ancient Times technologies (they may be cheaper if others have already researched them of course):

Available techs:

Map Making 120
Literature 100
Code of Laws 100
Iron Working 60
The Wheel 40
Mysticism 40
Mathematics 80
Philosophy 60

Not currently available techs:

Horseback Riding 50
Polytheism 120
Currency 160
Republic 280
Monarchy 240
Construction 200

Base amount of beakers needed for government techs:

Monarchy 60+120+240 = 420
Republic 100+60+280 = 440

Reminder of the remaining techs needed to reach Middle Ages:
Iron Working
Construction
Mathematics
Currency
Philosophy
Code of Laws
Map Making
The Wheel
Mysticism
Polytheism

Reminder of the techs not needed to reach next age:
Horseback Riding
Literature
Monarchy
Republic

	26-01-2003 00:11									#68
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Wow, I didn't realize that Republic is only a bit more expensive than Monarchy!

Maybe we should go for Republic, after all.

	26-01-2003 02:46									#69
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Yes, I'm leaning toward Republic too; especially since CoL is actually useful, unlike the other techs on the way to governments (IMO, the Oracle is worthless).

BTW, I think Horseback Riding is also required for era advancement.

	26-01-2003 03:32									#70
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Re: Horseback riding not being required for age advancement

That was straight from the Civ 3 original manual - whether that is right or not I don't know

	11-02-2003 17:54									#71
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With the discovery of Map Making taking in 9 turns max, I believe it is time to start discussing our next research goal. It is highly unlikely that anything of strategic importance could happen in those 9 turns that would have a major impact on our future research decision.

Spiffor, will you take care of it, please?

	11-02-2003 18:52									#72
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Well, we might want to build the GL, don't we?
Sooo ... literacy ?

	11-02-2003 20:19									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Well, we might want to build the GL, don't we? Sooo ... literacy ?

I am getting more and more undecided about this... We have learned RPers are currently researching Literature, quite possibly intending to try building the GLib... OTOH, nobody but GoW is researching Map Making...

Now, as things shape out, the world geography is quite different from what we thought. The other two landmasses are very close together (separated by a single tile strait only). The crowded landmass does not extend too far into their East (our West), so it is rather likely there will be no easy naval way to reach it from our Northwesternmost tip... this might make it very difficult to make contacts, suicidal galleys sent towards GoW/ND remaining our only option. And as we now know that ALL the other teams made contact, we are in serious trouble, unless we get into the tech-exchange loop ASAP.

Let's see what our options are (our current research output is 19 bpt, likely to gradually grow to something like 25 bpt, perhaps even more):

Iron Working (144 beakers) would make it easier to select which city sites in the far South to grab first. However, as it is going to take quite some time before we get there, I can't see how we would benefit from learning IW right now (sorry, Sharpe... )

Mathematics (192 beakers) is for the moment out of question, I believe - we have no need for catapults and the possibility to continue with the Currency later does not seem all that great to me (ATM... will change later on).

Philosophy (144 beakers) is a prerequisite for Republic... its importance thus depending on whether we opt to beeline for it or not.

Code of Laws (240 beakers) is like Philosophy, but in addition allows to build Courthouses (at the cost of 80 shields).

Republic (672 beakers) is not an immediate option, but our long term goal, I believe. The question is, how high on our list of priorities switching to Republic is... the total beaker costs of The Republic (including the prerequisites) is 1056. Considering our current and estimated future output, it sounds likely we would be able to get there in something like 50 turns (from now). That roughly coincides with the completion of our wonder in Jackson, IIRC. It seems pretty tempting to me to time our switch to Republic to that time... possibly building a swarm of settlers just before starting the revolution, making it less painful to go through the wasted turns of anarchy... not sure about this, just pondering aloud...

Literature (240 beakers) allows to build the GLib and Libraries. Currently researched by RPers.

Horseback Riding (120 beakers) allows Horsemen to be built, but is inferior even to Iron Working, IMHO. Does not reveal any new resources, just gives us a unit we do not urgently need. To be postponed for later, I believe.

Polytheism (288 beakers) is out of question, IMO, as we do not consider switching to Monarchy ever.

Now, there is one more thing to consider... once we make contacts, we will need something to trade for the techs we will be lacking. We will not want to give out our maps, ever. We will have some decent money from our barbarians and no contacts to trade. As money are unlikely to save the day for us, I believe we will have to rely on some exclusive techs, not spread among the others. This somehow favours the techs from the Writing branch of the tech-tree... everything else will likely be already common.

Thus, I believe that our real choices are:

Literature
Philosophy
Code of Laws

Despite viable possibilities of switching to Republic early, I would probably go for Literature (funny how long it took me to say the same thing as you, Tibi, isn't it? )

My reasons would be best illustrated by the two basic scenarios that may happen:

1) we fail to make any contacts before completing the wonder in Jackson and be thus forced to go for GLh to come out of our isolation. It will then be ok to have Literature, both because of being able to try a late shot at GLib and because of trades (I do not expect RPers to trade it around too much, wishing to keep a good chance of building the GLib for themselves). It would also be fine to have some pre-Republic tech for trade in this case.

2) we do get over the sea with a suicide galley before completing the Jackson wonder, thus being able to go for the GLib, catching up simply by making contacts.

Yep, my current choice would be Literature.

	11-02-2003 20:47									#74
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Without knowing for sure what other civs are doing I think we should be playing the game our own way. If we are going to go for republic then I think we should get Philosophy out of the way now and maybe wait for literature to become cheaper.

	11-02-2003 20:54									#75
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I am still in favor of going for Literature. I think the GLib should still be a priority for us, regardless of what the RPers are doing. I think that in a wonder race, we have a strong possibility of beating them, especially if they become involved in their continental conflict. If we don't have the GLib, and get shut out of tech trading for some reason (people think we're too big, etc...), we're in deep trouble. Might as well try to cover all our bases.

	17-02-2003 07:10									#76
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If we are following the Operation Double Edge plan (O2E), Iron Working should be next.

Some possible observations about the other teams situation in the public forum:

Reportedly the war between ND and GoW possibly involved a dispute over transferring Mysticism to the other team. So likely only one of them has Mysticism - however, the other part of the transaction was to trade Mathematics in return which we don't have yet (within 2 turns so likely GoW was going to get it from Vox or ND).

Probably all the other teams have Iron Working but likely none have Map Making yet.

	13-03-2003 08:33									#77
	Number of Beakers for Middle Age and Industrial Age techs Enter the AD-FREE zone

Perhaps a bit premature but here are the base amount of beakers needed for the Middle Age and Industrial Age technologies (Please correct if I am wrong with any of them)

Middle Age Techs:

Monotheism 864
Feudalism 768
Engineering 864
Theology 960
Chivalry 768
Invention 1056
Printing Press 864
Music Theory 960
Education 1056
Gunpowder 1152
Banking 1248
Astronomy 1344
Chemistry 1440
Democracy 1632
Economics 1344
Navigation 1344
Physics 1536
Metallurgy 1536
Free Artistry 1248
Theory of Gravity 1632
Magnetism 1632
Military Tradition 1536

Industrial Techs:

Nationalism 2880
Steam Engine 2880
Medicine 2400
Communism 2880
Industrialization 2880
Electricity 3360
Scientific Method 2400
Sanitation 2160
Espionage 2160
The Corporation 2400
Refining 3840
Steel 3360
Combustion 3840
Replacement Parts 3360
Flight 4320
Amphibious Warfare 2880
Mass Production 3360
Electronics 4320
Motorized Transportation 3360
Advanced Flight 4320
Radio 4800
Atomic Theory 4800

	13-03-2003 11:50									#78
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Well, I suppose we need a new Enlightened. It was OK until now without one, but now we need to keep track of treaties, plan future researches and deals, etc.

We could maybe PM Spiffor, but if he doesn't come back we really need somebody to replace him.

Sharpe? Or somebody else willing to?

	14-03-2003 19:15									#79
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Updated with current events. (see the first post)

	14-03-2003 19:32									#80
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I hereby apply for the position of the Enlightened in the Government of Legoland.

	14-03-2003 20:02									#81
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I'll second Tiberius for the post.

	14-03-2003 20:02									#82
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I will second Tiberius' application for the position. We've been without one for far too long...

	14-03-2003 20:43									#83
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I have no problem with Tibi taking the post of The Enlightened either (read: I support it ). I believe we can do without the Military Architect much easier than without The Enlightened...

That said... do we have any other candidates for this post? Do we have anyone interested in becoming The Military Architect? Perhaps we might even enjoy our first elections...!

Raise your hands, guys!

	14-03-2003 20:45									#84
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I actually just suggested early elections in the thread of the same name And, actually, I suppose I will use this time to declare my intention of running for Military Achitect. So, in that vein, who's going to run for Master Builder

	14-03-2003 20:49									#85
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX I actually just suggested early elections in the thread of the same name And, actually, I suppose I will use this time to declare my intention of running for Military Achitect. So, in that vein, who's going to run for Master Builder

If only I had known that

	15-03-2003 13:07									#86
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If you have comments in regard to the first post in this thread, please don't be shy, speak up!

Is there something I should add? Something I didn't think of? Or on the contrary, something that doesn't belong there and should be removed?

	17-03-2003 00:37									#87
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OK, I can imagine 2 scenarios. Some parts of them are common, while others depends on how well we can perform on the diplomatic side. Time to prove that we deserve to be a trading power

1. The easiest way
- talk with the GS and prearrange the following deal: they give us the Republic plus some gold (the difference is 192 beakers, so something between 50 and 100 gold; depending on other clauses and on what they are proposing) for Construction and Currency;
- talk with GoW and tell them that we are going to give them Construction in 12 turns for 150 gold (in 12 turns they can make 300 gold at least, IMHO), but they agree on a non-whoring clause
- keep researching Currency on 100%

2. The tricky one
- this is the tricky part. Talk with ND and prearrange the following deal: they give us Currency and no gold (the difference is 96 beakers) for Construction, with 3 conditions: a) they tell us the ETA for Currency (turn X) b) they don't sell Constr to others and c) we split the market for Currency: we trade it with the GS and they trade it with the others
- talk with the GS and prearrange the following deal: they give us the Republic plus some gold (the difference is 192 beakers, so something between 50 and 100 gold; depending on other clauses and on what they are proposing) for Construction and Currency;
- talk with GoW and tell them that we are going to give them Construction in X turns (depending on the ND trade) for 100-200 gold; they agree on a non-whoring clause
- put the research slider on 0

-----------------

This is just the genaral layout. Once we decide which way to go, we can work further on the details

	17-03-2003 04:08									#88
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OK, Tibi - here is something that I was pondering about. It is different from what you suggested - I do not mean to dismiss your ideas... just throwing in few more:

1) delay jumping into the medieval times
I believe it is quite important for us to delay other teams from entering the medieval times. First: we can potentially make LOADS of cash by making everyone stockpile cash, getting a fair share of it, providing the tech to them something like 15-20 turns from now. Second: once there are two teams entering the medieval era, there will be "massive barbarian uprisings" - as we have a lot of territory under FoW, we will have to strategically station our troops first, on order to prevent too many barb horsemen stacks from appearing and messing with our terrain improvements.

Considering this, I would try arranging things as follows:

2) tell GoW we have Construction and pre-arrange a tech-for-cash deal
I would be fair to GoW (they have been fair to us as well) and tell them we got Construction from a hut. I would tell them we do not want to hastily enter the medieval times and would prefer they shut their research down completely for some time, saving cash. On a certain, prenegotiated turn (coinciding with the discovery of the Republic by GS), we'd sell Construction to them for part of the saved cash, letting them trade it to whomever they may have prearranged deals as of now (reflecting the number of deals in the amount of cash asked for).

I would also include Currency in the deal - offering to sell it to them on the turn we discover it for 60 gold on condition they agree to buy it from us even if ND gets it a little bit earlier (+they do not whore it around). The price would be more than generous - getting us back the cash we spent on Polytheism, while making GoW happy, I believe (Currency for 60 gold is an awesome deal).

This way: GoW ends up with all the mandatory ancient techs, but not Republic (subject to a different deal, most probably for cash again). GoW goes medieval later than us.

3) trade Constr+Curr for Republic with GS
no cash balance asked for on condition they will not oppose us making a deal on Construction+Curr with Voxes (see below) and they allow us to resell Republic to GoW and RPers (granting us neverending exclusivity on Republic to these two teams).

This way: GS end up with all the ancient techs + Republic and go medieval later than us. Would probably trade Republic to Voxes for their "free" tech.

4) trade Constr+Curr for the "free" medieval tech with Voxes
That is a fair trade beaker-wise (20+16=36), so no cash balance asked, plus I would promise we would not whore their "free" tech around.

This way: Voxes end up with all the ancient techs and go medieval later than us. Would probably trade their "free" tech to GS for the Republic, getting some cash as a bonus.

A couple of comments on this:

1) GoW should be happy, since we will help them waste no beakers on a tech they can get from us. They should also be happy to trade for the Republic (perhaps paying with the "rest" of the saved cash - getting effectively two techs for the cost of one). We get loads of cash, which is IMHO a win-win deal.

2) GS should be happy since we will help them go medieval at the same time as other teams (if we whore Constr+Curr around ASAP, they would be late due to their research of Republic). Plus, trading Constr+Curr (20+16) for Republic (28) is an awesome deal. We get Republic with some exclusives plus a grateful partner. Win-win again, IMHO.

3) Voxes should be happy, too since they get out of the medieval times almost for free, being able to stockpile cash all along the way. That is good for us, since that would balance the obvious GS advantage on Estonia.

4) We would have an awesome headstart on medieval tech research, being able to start right after the discovery of Currency - going probably for Engineering, to avoid researching the same tech we would eventually get from Voxes. Alternatively, we could shut our research down completely and stockpile cash, rushing city improvements like mad once in the Republic.

5) I would point out to all the teams involved (GoW, GS, and Voxes) that our intention is to make sure all of them go medieval at the same time (that should make them feel quite safe), possibly a bit (1-3 turns) earlier than ND & RPers.

Just three trades and they put us, GoW, GS, and Voxes into sort of a "research alliance", leaving ND and RPers out of the loop... forcing them to pay lots of cash for whatever they may need to go medieval.

What do you think?

	17-03-2003 04:18									#89
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I agree with most of your ideas Radek, but I suspect that we won't be able to hold out for as long as you think - maybe 5-12 turns at most as the other civs may become impatient.

Otherwise I don't see why those civs will refuse as we are being fairly generous and benevolent and perhaps this will start a decent coalition among us, GoW and GS.

	17-03-2003 07:01									#90
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Good proposal.

As I just mentioned in the chat, we should be sure to offer these techs for sale to the RPers. Our relations may be cool and they may have no research effort to contribute to the medieval jump, but our Carthage treaty did specify some tech dealing, and we should live up to that.