10-12-2002 09:58									#31
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quote: It certainly is difficult to understand why the Koreans are upset.

The thread isn't about why the Koreans are upset. It's pretty damn obvious why they are upset and no one has said that they aren't justified in feeling that way.

The thread is about why the Koreans expect an apology from President Bush, as if the accident was his fault. Do try to keep up...

edit: And you made me agree with Asher! I'm so pissed off right now, seriously!

	10-12-2002 10:13									#32
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it's our military. They're at fault. Bush is (sadly) commander-in-chief of the military. I don't see a problem with this...ok...I do...Bush should have voluntariliy apologized before having one demanded from him.

	10-12-2002 10:32									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Why is humility demanded of the US? We're there for a reason. If they don't agree with that reason, why not just argue against it on that basis?

It is certainly a main point of contention right now. Loads of South Koreans constantly demonstrate against the US troops there. Both the ruling and opposition parties make it a main issue to take a strong stance when the agreement comes up for renewal.

	10-12-2002 10:35									#34
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"Fact is koreans dont like us. Even small things like olympic controversy in archery, speed skating etc pisses them off cause they Think that we as a bigger country influences the outcome and unpurposely rub them off since to them it seems to only happen with Korea-US."

The US has (or had this summer) a 53% approval rating in Korea, believe it or not. Not coincidentally, 53% of Koreans are also happy with their own lives.

The US has an approval rating of 61% in Indonesia, for comparison purposes.

"Bush should have voluntariliy apologized before having one demanded from him"

If you read the article, he did indeed apologize via letter. But this was deemed insufficient, as it wasn't delivered in person, but rather read by the ambassador.

Last edited by DanS on 10-12-2002 at 10:41

	10-12-2002 10:43									#35
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DanS, I think that there's a tendency for protesters to oversimplify matters and hold the heads of state responsible for matters that happen far away from their specific domains of control.

One need only look at the protesters who gather wherever Chinese President Jiang Zemin goes - as if he has sole responsibility in what his regime stands accused of. Colorful accusations by the more extremist protesters even claim that Jiang is personally responsible for massacres, exploitations, torture, etc ad nauseam.

It stands to reason that similarly zealous and insufficiently accuracy-minded protesters might equate George W Bush with some bloodthirsty tank driver.

Either way, this is not to say that there are no valid grievances. Two kids were killed by a US vehicle - that deserves some examination and the question is whether the US military's resolution is satisfactory, and if not, then why not.

But sometimes in order to get to the valid grievances in a matter, you have to ignore the mental ones.

People who run after President Jiang's motorcade hurling eggs and shouting about "Tiananmen" never cease to amaze me. What sort of power did they think Jiang Zemin even had thirteen years (and two leadership changes) ago?

It's all a question of perception. And potstickers in moderation.

	10-12-2002 10:57									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Stop being obtuse and read what he posted. He's wondering why they're asking for a personal apology from someone who wasn't even involved with it. Do you always have to be such a jackass?

Asher: this may be impossible for you, but try to be civilized for once instead of always spewing out insults like a little boy.

	10-12-2002 10:59									#37
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Well now, the buck does stop with the president, at least in the US--he sets foreign policy. I could accept a "Fvck Bush" button, just as I did with the "Fvck the US" buttons the nuns were wearing. They should be censured by Rome. Anyway, that all falls into the very legitimate question of whether or not the US military should be stationed in Korea, and whether the US is pursuing a good policy wrt the North.

I'm more perplexed on how a personal apology would heal the wounds in their minds.

Btw, who's the looker you have as an avatar?

	10-12-2002 11:00									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Asher: this may be impossible for you, but try to be civilized for once instead of always spewing out insults like a little boy.

Excellent avoidance. A+

	10-12-2002 11:01									#39
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Tingkai: Why are you defensive about this?

	10-12-2002 11:02									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DanS If you read the article, he did indeed apologize via letter. But this was deemed insufficient, as it wasn't delivered in person, but rather read by the ambassador.

before or after the demand? If before, then good! Kudos to Bush. Korea is in the wrong. If after, :burnt:, sorry, Bush is in the wrong. I'm inclinded to think it's the former, since anything demanded of Bush from a country would be ignored for spite.

The issue of our troops present in South Korea, however, is unchanged by any of this.

	10-12-2002 11:03									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The US has (or had this summer) a 53% approval rating in Korea, believe it or not. Not coincidentally, 53% of Koreans are also happy with their own lives.

The percentage will matter greatly matter on how you phrase the question. Just because koreans hate us doesnt mean they will be throwing rocks at US soldiers and violently attempt to protest. When koreans protest. They protest.

How about US's approval rating for some of dictators around the world? It's a little different now, but dictators like Saddam and Milosevic would have gotten an good approval rating from the US people to let them stay in power and be opposed to overthrowing them. Even though we hated them just as much as we do now. The statistic is too vague to tell us anything.

	10-12-2002 11:06									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: It certainly is difficult to understand why the Koreans are upset. The thread isn't about why the Koreans are upset. It's pretty damn obvious why they are upset and no one has said that they aren't justified in feeling that way. The thread is about why the Koreans expect an apology from President Bush, as if the accident was his fault.

If you agree that the Koreans have a reason to be upset with the US military and the way that it handled this case, or even if you understand why the Koreans are upset, then you must be able to understand why they believe that Bush, the commander-in-chief of the US military, has a responsbility to respond with a simple "I'm sorry for the deaths caused by the men under my command."

What the Koreans are demanding is perfectly understandable. There's a whole lot of crap here about why Asians demand apologies, when it is in fact, a universal response. There's nothing special about Korean culture that caused them to demand a response from Bush.

If this happened in Europe or North America, people would be saying the same things.

	10-12-2002 11:11									#43
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quote: If this happened in Europe or North America, people would be saying the same things.

I don't think this is true and it seems like many North American posters agree with me. If this happened in America, we would want the truck drivers to pay, not some meaningless apology from Kim Dae Jung.

	10-12-2002 11:12									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai If you agree that the Koreans have a reason to be upset with the US military and the way that it handled this case, or even if you understand why the Koreans are upset, then you must be able to understand why they believe that Bush, the commander-in-chief of the US military, has a responsbility to respond with a simple "I'm sorry for the deaths caused by the men under my command." What the Koreans are demanding is perfectly understandable. There's a whole lot of crap here about why Asians demand apologies, when it is in fact, a universal response. There's nothing special about Korean culture that caused them to demand a response from Bush. If this happened in Europe or North America, people would be saying the same things.

I guess You're right, but I think koreans hates us as well. I mean think about some annoying ***** that you dont like. You may not act all hostile just because you hate him, but when he does something that is his fault, you snap at him little more than you intended to. I think that plays a little here as well.

	10-12-2002 11:12									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DanS If you read the article, he did indeed apologize via letter. But this was deemed insufficient, as it wasn't delivered in person, but rather read by the ambassador.

Did he apologize? The article merely said that Bush said he "was touched by this tragedy". That hardly counts as an apology.

	10-12-2002 11:14									#46
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"If this happened in Europe or North America, people would be saying the same things."

I do not remember anybody demanding a personal apology from the president. In fact, I daresay a personal apology wouldn't go down so well in Europe--it would ring hollow, because he wasn't responsible for it. Expressions of regret and sympathy are always welcome, of course.

"There's a whole lot of crap here about why Asians demand apologies"

You need to get over it. This is Apolyton, after all.

	10-12-2002 11:14									#47
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When four Canadian soldiers were killed in Afghanistan there were a lot of complaints in Canada that Bush did not offer an immediate apology and the fact that he only spoke about it after being prompted by a reporter's questions.

When children get killed, people's emotions run high. That's all that is happening in Korea.

	10-12-2002 11:14									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: If this happened in Europe or North America, people would be saying the same things. I don't think this is true and it seems like many North American posters agree with me. If this happened in America, we would want the truck drivers to pay, not some meaningless apology from Kim Dae Jung.

I asked this question before, what if situation was reversed... it is highly likely we will get a formal apology whether we demanded or not, after all it is formal, its diplomatic stuff.

	10-12-2002 11:16									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai When four Canadian soldiers were killed in Afghanistan there were a lot of complaints in Canada that Bush did not offer an immediate apology and the fact that he only spoke about it after being prompted by a reporter's questions.

Erm...no there wasn't.

If there was they did the damnest to keep quiet, since I've never heard of anyone complaining about Bush not offering an immediate apology.

	10-12-2002 11:17									#50
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The diplomatic stuff was done, apparently.

	10-12-2002 11:22									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Erm...no there wasn't. If there was they did the damnest to keep quiet, since I've never heard of anyone complaining about Bush not offering an immediate apology.

You really need to start reading newspapers.

Bush apology too late for some
U.S. president goes public with sympathy for Canadian casualties after MPs complain

OTTAWA (CP) -- A more timely public expression of sorrow from U.S. President George W. Bush would have been appreciated by the families of Canada's dead soldiers, Deputy Prime Minister John Manley said Friday.

Some Canadians were incensed that Bush waited until Friday to publicly acknowledge the "friendly fire" incident in which an American F-16 fighter jet killed four Canadian soldiers and wounded eight in Afghanistan overnight Wednesday.

NDP Leader Alexa McDonough said she had "a real sense of rage that we're being taken for granted."

"It does show how far down the list this Canadian government is with the American president," said John Reynolds, acting leader of the Canadian Alliance.

http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSAttack0204/19_bush-cp.html

	10-12-2002 11:24									#52
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"How about US's approval rating for some of dictators around the world?

Kim Jong Il = 0%

	10-12-2002 11:26									#53
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Wasnt aware that Bush expressed his feelings toward this tragedy, though I guessed he would.

From the most cynical point of view, its just better to say sorry than to be stubborn and refuse to say it. Bush doesnt need to the responsibility while apologizing. People say sorry for the most trivial stuff in our society as well, why be stubborn now? Just trying to be stubborn would rather tarnish our image. I still remain unconvinced on wether we should apologizes OR not apologize, but the point is just do it, make us look good god dammit.

	10-12-2002 11:26									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai You really need to start reading newspapers. Bush apology too late for some U.S. president goes public with sympathy for Canadian casualties after MPs complain OTTAWA (CP) -- A more timely public expression of sorrow from U.S. President George W. Bush would have been appreciated by the families of Canada's dead soldiers, Deputy Prime Minister John Manley said Friday. Some Canadians were incensed that Bush waited until Friday to publicly acknowledge the "friendly fire" incident in which an American F-16 fighter jet killed four Canadian soldiers and wounded eight in Afghanistan overnight Wednesday. NDP Leader Alexa McDonough said she had "a real sense of rage that we're being taken for granted." "It does show how far down the list this Canadian government is with the American president," said John Reynolds, acting leader of the Canadian Alliance. http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSAttack0204/19_bush-cp.html

Of course there will be SOME idiots who want attention from Bush, but to say that there was "a lot of complaints" -- to even compare it to anything near the scale of Korea's complaints now, is completely ridiculous and shamelessly misrepresenting the case to try to prove a point.

To make it even more obvious, your article quotes the NDP leader as being upset. Tell everyone what portion of the government is NDP, Tingkai.

	10-12-2002 11:27									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "How about US's approval rating for some of dictators around the world? Kim Jong Il = 0%

I don't see any action being taken.

quote: Of course there will be SOME idiots who want attention from Bush, but to say that there was "a lot of complaints" -- to even compare it to anything near the scale of Korea's complaints now, is completely ridiculous and shamelessly misrepresenting the case to try to prove a point.

I'm telling you, the overexaggerated response probably has to do with some fact that they dont like us maybe?

	10-12-2002 11:29									#56
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There's a big difference between expressing regret for an incident (saying I'm sorry) and accepting responsibility for said incident (making a personal apology). That's how it seems to me, at least, but I'm just an evil Western ethnocentrist.

	10-12-2002 11:31									#57
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"I don't see any action being taken."

Slowly. Methodically.

He's been added to the "Axis of loathe" list this time.

	10-12-2002 11:32									#58
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It's politics. Principle never exists, Save some face by acting out publicly. They're not gonna try out Bush for murder if he apologies. Its all pointless stubborness.. on both sides!

	10-12-2002 11:34									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "I don't see any action being taken." Slowly. Methodically. He's been added to the "loathe" list this time.

I dont tink so, if anything he's been take out of the "loathe" list. Bush conveniently doesnt talk about his old original "axis of evil" list anymore. This is also cause of politics because of the way how South and North relationship has been moving.

Only reason North would be mentioned at all these days now would be because of that nuke thing.... thats kinda hard not to talk about.

	10-12-2002 11:39									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Asher To make it even more obvious, your article quotes the NDP leader as being upset. Tell everyone what portion of the government is NDP, Tingkai.

Can you read Asher?

Do you see the comment from the conservative Canadian Alliance. Did you read the entire article with the comments from the Liberals and the Conservatives.

But of course you're right when you wrote: "They did the damnest to keep quiet, since I've never heard of anyone complaining about Bush not offering an immediate apology."

Okay Asher, you're right. No one complained.