12-12-2002 21:45									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Pol Pot? You mean the guy who recieved support from the US to fight the Vietnamese? Read your history book again, Tingkai. China was the one who supported the Khmer Rouge against the Vietnamese. America just looked the other way, since opposition to the Soviet-backed Vietnamese fit into our strategic plans.

The United States, through three administrations, provided covert aid to that three-party coalition -- even though Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge was by far its dominant member. And when Pol Pot's guerrillas were isolated and near extinction on the Thai-Cambodian border, China supplied them with massive amounts of money and arms.
-- Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...polpotdeath.htm

The Khmer Rouge enjoyed support from the United States and other Asian nations because of its opposition to America's enemy Vietnam.
-- BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_...bodia/78988.stm

SINGAPORE - China, the United States, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand spent more than $1.3 billion in a largely secret program in the 1980s to support Khmer Rouge and non-Communist guerrillas in Cambodia fighting Vietnamese troops and allied Cambodian forces, the Singaporean senior minister, Lee Kuan Yew, has disclosed in his memoirs.
--IHT

The United States gave the Sihanouk-Khmer Rouge coalition millions of dollars in aid while enforcing an economic embargo against the Vietnamese-backed Cambodian government. The Carter administration helped the Khmer Rouge keep its seat at the United Nations, tacitly implying that they were still the country's legitimate rulers.
-- PBS
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/s...bodia/tl04.html

	13-12-2002 00:29									#122
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America supported Prince Norodom Sihanouk and his faction. The Chinese supported the Khmer Rouge. When Sihanouk and the Khmer Rouge were allied, the US gave money to the coalition, but US support was always directed towards Sihanouk, who the US wanted to see in control of Cambodia. Maybe you should find some more detailed sources next time.

http://www.seasite.niu.edu/khmer/Ledgerwood/Part1.htm

	13-12-2002 00:31									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The United States gave the Sihanouk-Khmer Rouge coalition millions of dollars in aid while enforcing an economic embargo against the Vietnamese-backed Cambodian government. The Carter administration helped the Khmer Rouge keep its seat at the United Nations, tacitly implying that they were still the country's legitimate rulers. -- PBS http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/s...bodia/tl04.html

I will assume for the moment that Carter did back he Khmer Rouge. All this proves is just how morally bankrupt Carter really was. He preached that he and his Democratic party were morally superior because they would always factor human rights into US foreign policy. But this, supporting one of the worst violators of human rights in the history of this planet because of our quasi alliance with China, is despicable in the extreme.

Carter, the Nobel peace prize winner for his long support of regimes that violate human rights, deserves to be jailed, not given a Nobel prize.

	13-12-2002 00:33									#124
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Drake, When Shanouk threw in with the Khmer-Rouge, we should have emphatically cut off aid.

	13-12-2002 00:47									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Drake, When Shanouk threw in with the Khmer-Rouge, we should have emphatically cut off aid.

Why? If the US cut off support for Sihanouk, we would've been guaranteed of Communist control in Cambodia, by either the Vietnamese or the Khmer Rouge.

America actually supported the formation of the Sihanouk-Khmer Rouge coalition. By supporting the coalition, the US made it possible for the Vietnamese to be pushed out of Cambodia. US support also kept Sihanouk's forces strong, in order to contest the Khmer Rouge after the Vietnamese were pushed out.

While it is distasteful that the US was even tangentially supportive of the Khmer Rouge, we were never friends to them. They were Chinese-supported thugs from their very beginning.

Now, let's stop the threadjack. This was a good thread on an interesting topic and I don't want to be responsible for its demise.

	13-12-2002 01:03									#126
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Drake, I don't know how anyone could justify putting the Khmer Rouge back in power.

	13-12-2002 01:07									#127
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quote: Drake, I don't know how anyone could justify putting the Khmer Rouge back in power.

The US wasn't trying to put the Khmer Rouge back in power. They were trying to get the Vietnamese out of power and hoping Sihanouk could beat the Khmer Rouge in the ensuing power struggle.

	13-12-2002 05:41									#128
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Now, this isn't something to do if you're looking for an apology!

Watch out, Seeker, or you might be mistaken for an American!

Attachment: capt.1038463264.south_korea_us_military_sel102.jpg
This has been downloaded 52 time(s).

	13-12-2002 05:47									#129
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They spelled everything right. Where's the Engrish?

	13-12-2002 20:39									#130
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Here for an American apology? OK, form a line to the right.

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...p=1012571727092

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-sub13.html

Next!

	13-12-2002 20:52									#131
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Interesting. Apparently, refusing to apologize is sometimes OK too.

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/as...,160192,00.html

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2...8950137444.html

What kind of currency does an apology have, anyway?

	14-12-2002 09:10									#132
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The Phillipines and Malaysia are far different, culturally, from Korea and Japan. I wouldn't use the behavior of Southeast Asian states to draw any conclusions about the values of East Asian states.

	14-12-2002 09:57									#133
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Aha! So we have some nuance. Could you expand on it? Is there a good example that illustrates?

	14-12-2002 23:16									#134
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quote: Aha! So we have some nuance. Could you expand on it? Is there a good example that illustrates?

I think your four articles provides a good example. I said that I thought this insistence on apologizing was related to Confucianism, so therefore it would make sense that states that have been deeply affected by Confucianism would be more concerned about apologies than those that haven't. Your articles seem to exhibit this cultural difference in action.

Korea and Japan both have cultures that are heavily indebted to Chinese Confucian thought. The Phillipines and Malaysia, however, were never that closely linked with the China and have a much different culture influenced by several different sources, including India, Islam, and Europe.

If the importance of apologies is indeed a Confucian trait, as I have suggested, then it only makes sense that states like the Phillipines and Malaysia would put less importance on apologies than Korea or Japan. The importance of apologies is mainly an East Asian characteristic, so it's only natural that Southeast Asian states would act differently.

	14-12-2002 23:19									#135
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Now, this isn't something to do if you're looking for an apology! Watch out, Seeker, or you might be mistaken for an American!

Actually Seeker will be not welcomed too.

I talked to my dad a little bit about this subject. Apparently, the koreans ARENT lloking for an apology. Whoever came up with this idea?

"Our people should no longer be humiliated," Lee said while campaigning Friday in a southwestern province. "America still does not comprehend. Their leader, President Bush, should directly apologize to our people."

was said by somebody named lee. but it also said he's an opposing party leader. So this was obviously said to raise public's head. I doubt that Koreans want to even hear an apology from Bush.

The issue is more about the stuff we went Off topic over. The soldiers being tried under US law and US troop's presence in korea. They never liked it, they are using this event now thats all.

	14-12-2002 23:38									#136
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Interesting. Apparently, refusing to apologize is sometimes OK too. http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/as...,160192,00.html http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2...8950137444.html What kind of currency does an apology have, anyway?

it doesnt seem like it was ok at all actually... read the second one. they had to call up all the SE asian countries and have a meeting explaining them...

first one turned out shes was malaysian

	14-12-2002 23:58									#137
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Seeker: Don't they know that the North is one serious fvcked up place? This won't be Germany reuniting. It will be a barely third world country reuniting with a first world country. It's going to break the bank for 20 or 30 years, and will be a substantial problem for a significant period of time afterward.

To paraphrase Mohandas Gandhi, yes - it will be a great problem for the country to deal with. It won't be an easy answer fix.

But it's Korea's problem, not America's. And if they want to tackle it themselves as a modernized, wealthy, fully democratic state, then I don't see the need, right, or justification to prevent them.

South Korea now has enough military superiority to nullify any strategic threat the North has, barring nuclear weapons. And the North can no longer count on China to come to its military aid, not when China does more trade with the South and America than North Korea has ever seen in its history.

Nothing is going to be solved if the popular sentiment turns so far away from America that Bush is viewed even worse than Kim Jong Il.

On an unrelated note, my housemate looks just like Kim Jong Il when he gets up in the morning and hasn't had time to brush his hair.