10-12-2002 11:44									#61
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Can you read Asher? Do you see the comment from the conservative Canadian Alliance. Did you read the entire article with the comments from the Liberals and the Conservatives. But of course you're right when you wrote: "They did the damnest to keep quiet, since I've never heard of anyone complaining about Bush not offering an immediate apology."

I've never heard does not translate to no one did. That's pretty basic logic, Tingkai -- are you familiar with scope of reference?

The opposition felt the need to complain because, well, that's their job. That's how they get press time.

And I don't recall Chretien complaining. Odd, that. Of course people like Manley are likely to complain because, well, he's going to run for Prime Minister pretty soon so he wants his face and name in the news too.

The vast majority of people in this country don't give a rats ass if Bush made an apology immediately after the incident, because they're just pointless empty words.

As people said before, it's all about politics. And it's very wrong for you to insist "lots" of people complained about it, when in reality the only real people who did were the politicians looking for news time.

quote: Okay Asher, you're right. No one complained.

You're such a moron. Christ.

I never said NO ONE COMPLAINED.

In fact I said:

quote: Of course there will be SOME idiots who want attention from Bush

Take your own advice, Tingkai...

	10-12-2002 11:47									#62
	Increase Your PM Length

It would be a real funny turn of events to se an Asian Apologies thread turned into a Canadian politics thread.

Then I will have seen everything in life...

	10-12-2002 11:49									#63
	Support Apolyton

Sorry, Tingkai just gets on my nerve how he misrepresents everything he touches. From other people's arguments to the topic of the thread to Canadian politics...

He feels the need to manipulate everything to make a point, and he doesn't like it when people point that out so he sets up all sorts of smoke and mirrors.

I'll stop threadjacking now.

	10-12-2002 11:51									#64
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

DanS, just about all heated discussion according to my experience, turns into a middleeast-eastern european debate. Sooner or later bunch of greeks, turks, israelis and arab-supporters will surface and someone will throw an insult and WHAM!

	10-12-2002 11:59									#65
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by DanS It would be a real funny turn of events to se an Asian Apologies thread turned into a Canadian politics thread. Then I will have seen everything in life...

Nah, it won't get into politics. This thread is just an excuse for Asher to insult me.

On the bright side, he has promised to stop hijacking the thread. One can only hope, but five will get you $10 that he'll throw out more insults within the next 10 mintues.

	10-12-2002 12:08									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Calc II whereever you heard this, apologizing while tears running down from ur face would indicate exactly this... ur theoratically being so humble ur pretty much giving up ur manhood to the person. Thats some extreme apology that even asians wont even demand.

I saw this once by TV. A Japanese CEO was apologizing for the bankruptcy of his company. He was sobbing uncontrollably in front of a full auditorium of his coworkers.

	10-12-2002 12:11									#67
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

There you go. It shows you the extremeness of his apologetic behavior. I guess you still dont get it. He's japanese and he bankrupted his company. ugh, try thinking about what that must have meant to the CEO.

EDIT: Another good example is the classic film Seven Samurai. There a poor peasants try to recruit Samurais to help defend against bandits. Character named Rikishi, begins to shed tears in fornt of the samurai, after being rejected. This may mean 'oh this man must be feel really desperate and helpless' to a western audience, but its a lot more than that.

Last edited by Zero on 10-12-2002 at 12:17

	10-12-2002 12:17									#68
	Put an end to popups!

I get it, Calc. I get it.

	10-12-2002 12:44									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The general opinion I have encountered here on Korean anti-Americanism goes like this:

1.Reunification is inevitable, except for a few ruffles to smooth down.

2.The United States prevents reunification by interfering, and from its need to demonize the North.

3.Once reunification occurs, Korea will be an unstoppable superpower, dominating the WORLD!!!

4. Americans are insulting

(according to the salarymen in my 11:00 class)

	10-12-2002 12:44									#70
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Calc II EDIT: Another good example is the classic film Seven Samurai. There a poor peasants try to recruit Samurais to help defend against bandits. Character named Rikishi, begins to shed tears in fornt of the samurai, after being rejected. This may mean 'oh this man must be feel really desperate and helpless' to a western audience, but its a lot more than that.

Now I don't get it again. What do you mean by "a lot more"?
Was he paying the ultimate price (destroying his manhood) in order to convince the Samurai?

	10-12-2002 12:59									#71
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by El Leon Imagine that for some reason, a couple of generations ago there was a war in the US (in which you did not even participate), where the US was being used as a political-real battlefield between two powers. This war, which would have never been one if the two powers had not intervened, ended up splitting your country arbitrarily into two parts. To "defend" both parts, the two countries send their armies into yours. Fifty years later, a foreign army member (one should remember that what the army does in foreign countries (pornography, prostitution, alchohol) is quite different from what it does in its own country)) runs over two schoolgirls. (Mind you, this is not the first time that koreans complain about US army misbehaviour). What do you think people in the US would feel in this scenario?

I think it clearly time to pull our army out and turn South Korea over to the North.

	10-12-2002 13:00									#72
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Seeker The general opinion I have encountered here on Korean anti-Americanism goes like this: 1.Reunification is inevitable, except for a few ruffles to smooth down. 2.The United States prevents reunification by interfering, and from its need to demonize the North. 3.Once reunification occurs, Korea will be an unstoppable superpower, dominating the WORLD!!! 4. Americans are insulting (according to the salarymen in my 11:00 class)

Those South Koreans are complete idiots. But WTF, it is their country. I say, withdraw now.

	10-12-2002 13:03									#73
	Inflate your Upload Space

Um, the US force here is only 40 000...

The South Korean Army, Airforce, Navy, and Marines is quite large and formidable.

	10-12-2002 20:21									#74
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Seeker, let's add insult to injury then - no resupply from the US.

	10-12-2002 20:24									#75
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Seeker The general opinion I have encountered here on Korean anti-Americanism goes like this:

So, it is mainly based on ignorance?

	10-12-2002 20:47									#76
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The point is that keeping the huge base filled with a bunch of loud mouthed drunks (or so they appear if you go near Itaewon when they unleash them on the neighbourhood) in the middle of Seoul is not a military necessity or real strategic benefit for South Korea.

It is, of course, nice for the US military in larger geopolitics, since it gives them yet another colonial base to encircle the world with.

The North Korean army is even more outdated than the Iraqis. If they launched a major attack, many would defect.

Second, the South Korean Army IS highly trained, motivated, and well equiped, and is backed up by some pretty fair and sophisticated industrial muscle. Although of course they'd expect US air support, they don't really need the 40 000 dudes for much except symbolism.

Many Koreans are coming to suspect that what the base symbolizes is not an 'equal alliance', but a vassal or protectorate relationship.

Second Point, thoughts on the recent deaths:
-One, the attitude to the law and legal system here is such that they are OUTRAGED that a (possible) crime commited against Koreans in Korea was not tried by a Korean court, but a US military court. This is the big thing.
-The US perspective: letting them go to Korean court would be sacrificing them. Koreans don't do jury trials, they do beat and treat 'harshly' suspects.

The third, and most important point, is one that you have to be here to get. It's vague and in the air. Korea is changing. The World Cup was not just a sports event here, it was a focus for a new upwelling of nationalism, a very powerful tide sweeping the countries youth. It is not really understood by the more passive Old Korea, but having seen the riots, talked to the police and conscripts, this new tide could go any where, find any target. I strongly suggest that America not make itself anymore of a target by parading drunken fools through the middle of Seoul looking for fights and hookers.

Note: todays paper Joong Ang Il-Bo---> protestors firebomb a US base.

	10-12-2002 23:46									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Seeker, Why are you threatening the United States? Do you really want US troops to withdraw and for the US to sever military support?

	11-12-2002 00:59									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: The World Cup was not just a sports event here, it was a focus for a new upwelling of nationalism, a very powerful tide sweeping the countries youth. It is not really understood by the more passive Old Korea, but having seen the riots, talked to the police and conscripts, this new tide could go any where, find any target.

This is great news for the region, as East Asia desperately needs another belligerent, hyper-nationalistic power. The prospects for regional war are too low right now; crank up those tensions, Korean youth.

Seriously though, America needs to get the hell out of Asia before the whole region goes up in flames. Get our boys out of there so we can watch and laugh when the "world power" that is Korea gets a little mouthy and ends up under the Chinese boot. I don't want to fight World War III protecting a nation that is too stupid to appreciate our protection.

	11-12-2002 01:31									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Seeker: Don't they know that the North is one serious fvcked up place? This won't be Germany reuniting. It will be a barely third world country reuniting with a first world country. It's going to break the bank for 20 or 30 years, and will be a substantial problem for a significant period of time afterward.

Last edited by DanS on 11-12-2002 at 01:45

	11-12-2002 01:38									#80
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: -One, the attitude to the law and legal system here is such that they are OUTRAGED that a (possible) crime commited against Koreans in Korea was not tried by a Korean court, but a US military court. This is the big thing.

That is kind of outragous.

quote: The third, and most important point, is one that you have to be here to get. It's vague and in the air. Korea is changing.

I was like the "it's a (insert race, creed, nation, or sex her) thing" as a reason. You know, it just dosen't work for me.

I think Korea has just gotten really full of themselves since CIVIII made them a civilization. Yeah, that's it.

I say pull out, and everyone will be happy. Right?

	11-12-2002 07:48									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Seeker, Why are you threatening the United States?

I'm not.

Do you really want US troops to withdraw

Yes.

and for the US to sever military support?

No.

	11-12-2002 08:17									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well I can't see why Bush should apologize. I can't see why he couldn't do that either, nothing humiliating in that IMO. If they want it so bad, why not, it's free, and apparently it's their custom. Yes, the US is not Asia, but it happened IN Asia.

I like to do things in countries own way when I'm in it.
If I'm in Asia, then I apologize. If I'm in Finland, I just give them a cold stare.

I thought it was rude in our independece day when president hosted a gathering and there were all these important guests. There comes the embassador of Iran, and the man does NOT shake our presidents hand, but goes to her husband and shakes his hand (it's a big line where all the guests shake their hands before going in). His wife however shakes presidents hand too (she's woman). I don't know if it's Iranian custom not to shake womens hands, but for foox sake he is guest in this country, and she is the president and it's official happening and important one. Shake the damn hand!
If I come to Iran, and it's custom that men don't shake womens hands, I don't shake them!

	11-12-2002 08:42									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ned I think it clearly time to pull our army out and turn South Korea over to the North.

Thats just typical dumb american response. We think we are doing them good and get all pissy when the koreans are complaining. Look it seems as they dont like our presence. Just withdraw. Don't act all cocky and try to look like we are all righteous and doing them a favor.

America: "Hey eat this cake its great!"
Korea: "No way, Im not eating it."
America: "WTF? You'll starve! Just eat it you ungrateful f---"
Korea: "I'll feed myself go away"
America: "WTF, fine Im gonna stay here until I see you eat it"

If they dont like us, Why do we waste our time? and why do we force it on them?

	11-12-2002 08:49									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Well I can't see why Bush should apologize. I can't see why he couldn't do that either, nothing humiliating in that IMO. If they want it so bad, why not, it's free, and apparently it's their custom. Yes, the US is not Asia, but it happened IN Asia. I like to do things in countries own way when I'm in it. If I'm in Asia, then I apologize. If I'm in Finland, I just give them a cold stare.

Well, when in Rome...


Like I said its the immaturity on BOTH sides. Being a by product of both nation, I really see clearly how stupid two of them are acting. If two nation were a kid I'd smack em so hard.

	11-12-2002 08:54									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Heh, I agree. It seems 'a bit' funny, I do agree that someone should send apologizes. Maybe those who drove the vehicle, signed by commander. It's ok to say we're sorry if accident happens. But to ask that Bush apologizes.. well that's little different.
But someone should apologize.

	11-12-2002 10:04									#86
	Increase the size of your Attachments

America: "Hey eat this cake its great!"
Korea: "No way, Im not eating it."
America: "WTF? You'll starve! Just eat it you ungrateful f---"
Korea: "I'll feed myself go away"
America: "WTF, fine Im gonna stay here until I see you eat it"



Look it seems as they dont like our presence. Just withdraw."

Never so easy. Looks like they're divided over the issue--some want us there, some don't, some want us there one day but not the other. Here's a funny article that illustrates.

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...p=1012571727088

The US is being accused of aiding the conservative candidate by having our ambassador meet him and accept a request by him for Bush to apologize personally for the driver running over the two girls. According to the gov't candidate, the US was being duped into the meeting, which was meant to show his independence from the US.

	11-12-2002 10:32									#87
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Whether Koreans want us there or not, we should withdraw. We have no business there, and we never did.

	11-12-2002 11:11									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Calc II Thats just typical dumb american response. We think we are doing them good and get all pissy when the koreans are complaining. Look it seems as they dont like our presence. Just withdraw. Don't act all cocky and try to look like we are all righteous and doing them a favor. America: "Hey eat this cake its great!" Korea: "No way, Im not eating it." America: "WTF? You'll starve! Just eat it you ungrateful f---" Korea: "I'll feed myself go away" America: "WTF, fine Im gonna stay here until I see you eat it" If they dont like us, Why do we waste our time? and why do we force it on them?

The last time we withdrew, the North invaded and overran the South. Why do you think it would be any different this time?

Seeker, Our presence on the DMZ keeps the peace. If we withdraw at SK's request and war starts, I doubt we would help. Look to your ally Japan.

	11-12-2002 16:04									#89
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Ned The last time we withdrew, the North invaded and overran the South. Why do you think it would be any different this time?

45 years of training and equipping the South Koreans.


But anyways, the US troops are not really there because of North Korea, or at least that's not the main reason. The US needs to maintain bases on the Asian mainland for global political reasons. The bases are a threat/deterrent against China and Russia.

The bases would serve as a jump off point for invading/defending different areas in the East Asia region (read Taiwan).

If the US pulls out of South Korea, it would be under pressure to pull out of Japan.

Besides, you need bases all over the world if you want to be a global empire, I mean superpower.

	11-12-2002 16:58									#90
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We'd still have Japan.

I don't think we need to think of pulling out yet. The government is still predominantly pro-American, and the consequences of Korea being forcibly re-unified by the North are rather frightening - if the whole peninsula became a potential staging area for their nuclear missiles, they'd be a lot harder to stop.