09-12-2002 23:42									#1
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After reading about demands by Koreans for a personal apology by President Bush for two army drivers running over two schoolgirls, I have to admit to being culturally stumped...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...1-2002Dec8.html

Why would anybody get so emotional about an accident and expect an apology from Bush? Is somebody always negligently at fault? Even if somebody is negligently at fault, what's that have to do with Bush?

I'm also reminded of Korean and Chinese demands for an apology from Japan for WWII occupation. This I can understand fully.

But it seems that there is little difference in degree among demanded apologies for wildly different acts--i.e., Bush should apologize to the same degree that Koizumi should. This doesn't make sense to me at all.

Please edumacate DanS.

	09-12-2002 23:53									#2
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Imagine that for some reason, a couple of generations ago there was a war in the US (in which you did not even participate), where the US was being used as a political-real battlefield between two powers.
This war, which would have never been one if the two powers had not intervened, ended up splitting your country arbitrarily into two parts.
To "defend" both parts, the two countries send their armies into yours.
Fifty years later, a foreign army member (one should remember that what the army does in foreign countries (pornography, prostitution, alchohol) is quite different from what it does in its own country)) runs over two schoolgirls. (Mind you, this is not the first time that koreans complain about US army misbehaviour).

What do you think people in the US would feel in this scenario?

	09-12-2002 23:54									#3
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Whatever.

I agree that they are being rediculous for wanting an apology from Bush for an accident that he had nothing, personally, to do with. However, what I think the really want is apology from the US that the accident occured.

We could say sorry, "Sorry we ran over those girls, it is a big tragedy, and we will regret the incident for the rest of our lives. And, since you are so concernded of US involvement in your country, we will kindly step back from the board and welcom the North Koreans as they walk into your country killing all who will resist. Do you think they will apologize?... Hey, that reminds me, someone needs to apologize to all the families that were killed in the war here. Especially since some died due to "friendly fire". Hey, N. Korea, please apologize for all the killings you did too... Please."

Yet, that is why I am not a polotician.

As a US citizen I am apauld by both the accident and the subsiquent responses from it. I, as a US citizen, will apologize without haste and the upmost of sincerity, and I would like to see Bush (the US representative) do the same. All this because someone has to be the bigger man, turn the other cheek, and be the keeper of peace.

	09-12-2002 23:56									#4
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quote: His opponent, opposition party chief Lee Hoi Chang, 67, is a staunch conservative much more in tune with Bush's view of North Korea. But Lee, too, has bent to the winds of public opinion in an effort to capture the pivotal middle ground of the electorate.

quote: "Our people should no longer be humiliated," Lee said while campaigning Friday in a southwestern province. "America still does not comprehend. Their leader, President Bush, should directly apologize to our people."

internal politics

	09-12-2002 23:58									#5
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El Leon, you are partially incorrect. The US military behaves roughly the same at home as it does abroad. Here in my exceedingly anti-porn state is the city of Jacksonville, which is a huge naval base. Mucho porn shops and strip clubs. Wouldn't be surprised if there was a lot of prostitution here too.

	10-12-2002 00:02									#6
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It's a cultural thing. The act of apologizing in Far East countries is considered almost an act of nobility and humility. Unlike the US, where an apology is a green light to sue the crap out of somebody.

	10-12-2002 00:17									#7
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If a coule of dilomats drivng around ran over two small girls in the US, and then the two diplomats were sent home and cleared of any negligence there would be plenty of angry people in the US demanding some sort of appology from the government. After all, people dying is far more serious than, let say, someone's persobnal comment about someone else, and yet even that brings about calls for apologies and resignations.

	10-12-2002 00:18									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Whatever. I agree that they are being rediculous for wanting an apology from Bush for an accident that he had nothing, personally, to do with.

Um, maybe I am confused, but the apology is asked from Bush not as a person, but as the representative of the country which stationed the troops that ran over the girls.

quote: We could say sorry, "Sorry we ran over those girls, it is a big tragedy, and we will regret the incident for the rest of our lives. And, since you are so concernded of US involvement in your country, we will kindly step back from the board...

I do not see how these are related in any way. The military can be in Korea and not run over school girls, and apologize when they do so, without that meaning that they shoud not be there. Also, the US cannot change history or make north Korea apologize, but it can set the example.

And DetroitDave brings up something very important - people in the US have no clue as to what Koreans mean when they ask for an apology. It IS a very strong admission of wrongdoing, but also, as DD points out, the kind of act of nobility expected from someone who is a leader.

	10-12-2002 00:19									#9
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Why is humility demanded of the US? We're there for a reason. If they don't agree with that reason, why not just argue against it on that basis?

"If a coule of dilomats drivng around ran over two small girls in the US, and then the two diplomats were sent home and cleared of any negligence there would be plenty of angry people in the US demanding some sort of appology from the government."

We would focus on the negligence. A Georgian diplomat was in this situation a couple of years ago. We asked if we could try him in US court, because his BAC was 3x the legal limit.

IOW, the negligence was real. In this situation, I don't even know if there was any negligence.

Last edited by DanS on 10-12-2002 at 00:28

	10-12-2002 00:25									#10
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In Asia you apologize for everything. They just need to realize we aren't Asian.

	10-12-2002 00:27									#11
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"In Asia you apologize for everything."

It appears so. But why?

	10-12-2002 00:30									#12
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I don't know. I was reading a list of "You know you've been in Japan too long when . . . " and a lot of it had to do with spending more time apologizing than talking about things of substance.

	10-12-2002 00:31									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Why is humility demanded of the US? We're there for a reason. If they don't agree with that reason, why not just argue against it on that basis? We would focus on the negligence. A Georgian diplomat was in this exact situation a couple of years ago. We asked if we could try him in US court, because his BAC was 3x the legal limit. IOW, the negligence was real. In this situation, I don't even know if there was any negligence.

This is not an Asian issue. KOreans, just like Okinawans, have to deal with whatever the aggrevations and dangers of having major military based near your home, and they aren't even your own nation's bases, but someone else's, which means you have very little political say about whether they stay in your neighborhood or not anyway. If in any other part of the world major military bases existed so damn close to a foreign military base, you would see this issue come up often aftre ever singe such incident. And that way the s handles incident is much like the police handles incident in the US :clumsily, with not attention to public sentiments or publicity.

	10-12-2002 00:35									#15
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OK, I can grok that. But there are similar issues around German and Italian bases and we seem to be able to work things out without requiring an apology from the President.

	10-12-2002 00:38									#16
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I met an Army dude who sliced and diced a German prostitute, and Reagan didn't have to apologize when he was caught. He was a friend of someone I went to college with. Didn't know he was a budding serial killer at the time.

	10-12-2002 00:42									#17
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Times have changed. If this accident had happened in 1989, no one in KOrea would have said a peep about it. Today, it is somewhat ahrd to jsutify US military precense in North east asia. S.Korea and Japan are persuing policies of peace towards the only two significant threats, China and N.Korea, and Japan and S.Korea are strong and rich enough to handle such threats without the US anyway.

I doubt bases in Italy and germany are as close to heavily populated regions as in these places. after all, the command complex for US forces in S.Korea is right in the middle of downtown Seou, a metropolitan region of 14 million.

	10-12-2002 00:45									#18
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"no one in KOrea would have said a peep about it"

I bet they would have. But I do agree that times have changed.

"Today, it is somewhat ahrd to jsutify US military precense in North east asia."

That's ridiculous. You've got a country that is about ready to implode, while having 1/10th of its populace under arms. It's a freakin' powder keg.

	10-12-2002 00:47									#19
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I doubt bases in Italy and germany are as close to heavily populated regions as in these places. after all, the command complex for US forces in S.Korea is right in the middle of downtown Seou, a metropolitan region of 14 million.

Most of the ones that I was on were right there in population centers. Step outside the gate and you were in town.

	10-12-2002 00:48									#20
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I remember the cable car incident/accident in Italy that made the sh!t hit the fan. Don't think they demanded an apology by the President, although perhaps somebody could set me right in that regard. I think the Italians focused on the cavalier attitude wrt the rules, which is entirely fair.

	10-12-2002 01:05									#21
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"utsde of town" and right inside downtown Megalopolis are two different things. I lived in a city damn close to significant US bases (Panama City Panama) and you did not see that sigificant a US precense, or hear that may overflights even though some of the bigest air-bases in the world at the time were in the Canal Zone. So there is a significan difference.

S.Korea's army is far more powerful than the N.Korean army. We have 37,000 toopr there,. They have an army of 600,000 men, far better equiped and tranied than the 1,000,000 N.Korean army. They have a far greater economy, including making their own equipment, and a signifanclty bigger populartion. And S.Koreans expect N.Korean nukes to be headed for Tokyo, which produces no tears from them. So, No, S, Korea does not need US help to beat N.Korea in a conventional war.

	10-12-2002 02:06									#22
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Further, GePap, South Korea possesses far more significant reserves than does North Korea. If you include all reserves, the figure is something like 4 million for South Korea vs. under 2 million for North Korea.

	10-12-2002 08:51									#23
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This Asian tradition of making apologies all the time is cool. I like it. It's also considered rather normal for a man to shed tears (a lot of tears, in fact) in front of his collegues as an act of his sincere apology.

	10-12-2002 09:15									#24
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I think this has more to do with Confucian concepts of shame and group responsibility that anything else. East Asian societies are much more concerned with hierarchy than American society and tend to see things in terms of groups, not individuals.

In this case, the truck drivers commited a terrible act and are being blamed for it. In America, we would place the blame solely on the truck drivers and leave it at that. East Asians, however, tend to place the blame on the entire group responsible. To them, the truck drivers not only brought shame upon themselves; they brought shame upon their entire group, the U.S. military in this case. Bush, as Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. military, is ultimately responsible for all actions committed by his subordinates, regardless of how far down the chain of command they are. Bush is supposed to feel shamed by the actions of the truck drivers and should want to apologize for their actions.

Of course, this type of thinking is completely foreign to Americans, so the Korean demands seem unreasonable. In their proper cultural context, however, they aren't really so strange.

These concepts also have an effect on the Japanese-Korean tensions mentioned earlier. In the West, such tensions would die off with the men responsible. In Asia, however, the shame for such actions is applied to the group responsible, in this case the Japanese people, and is transmitted from generation to generation.

Even when all of the men responsible for Japanese atrocities are dead, the Koreans and Chinese will still consider the Japanese people responsible for those actions. The Japanese, on the other hand, will not apologize because they do not want to admit that their ancestors were wrong and thereby shame them after death. In the end, it all creates a tinderbox of pent-up tension that could blow up at any minute.

Hope that explains your question. It was a pretty brief explanation, but I don't have the time to go into the intricacies of the concept of shame in Confucian culture. Needless to say, it is a complicated subject.

	10-12-2002 09:18									#25
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quote: Originally posted by GePap "utsde of town" and right inside downtown Megalopolis are two different things. I lived in a city damn close to significant US bases (Panama City Panama) and you did not see that sigificant a US precense, or hear that may overflights even though some of the bigest air-bases in the world at the time were in the Canal Zone. So there is a significan difference.

Im not going to argue with you about this. I know how close the bases were that I was at in Vincenza and K-town. You can accept it or not. I don't know how the base layouts are in Korea but I know that in Germany, and to a lesser extent Italy, they are scattered around in different cities and in multiple locations within a city. That means lots of Americans driving their personal and military transports around from here and there. Draw whatever you want from it.

	10-12-2002 09:37									#26
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It's almost like the Japanese communities asking for US justice for the rapes that US servicemen committed in Okinawa and in Japan.

Although this was an accident and is totally different than intentional rape. I think the two drivers should formally apologize and not Bush.

	10-12-2002 09:46									#27
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Drake ur absolutely right, but Koreans are just generally bitter toward Americans in general. Then again, most of the world are like that... just koreans more in particular...

Fact is koreans dont like us. Even small things like olympic controversy in archery, speed skating etc pisses them off cause they Think that we as a bigger country influences the outcome and unpurposely rub them off since to them it seems to only happen with Korea-US.

quote: No, S, Korea does not need US help to beat N.Korea in a conventional war.

I dunno, when I visited the memorial/museum-esque site in Korea, the tour guide told me a different story of how they will be doomed if N.K launches first strike. Then again, thats highly likely a biased view, or personal view that wasnt really based on any fact... But N.K does overwhelm S.K forces in numbers though. That probably is true.

I wonder if the Korean president will do the same in reversed situation. U.S prolly wouldnt have demanded like they did anyway but I wonder...

	10-12-2002 09:54									#28
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It certainly is difficult to understand why the Koreans are upset. Two young girls get run over and killed by an American military vehicle. The driver and commander don't even get a slap on the wrist. Instead the two culprits get transferred out of Korea (where have we heard this before).

Yup, it's just them strange Asians and their wacky culture.

	10-12-2002 09:55									#29
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond This Asian tradition of making apologies all the time is cool. I like it. It's also considered rather normal for a man to shed tears (a lot of tears, in fact) in front of his collegues as an act of his sincere apology.

my korean dad tells me otherwise. He tells me "A man only sheds tears three times in his life". -birth, childhood and death of your parents. A male shedding tear in public would be considered rude, just as how someone stated not apologizing more than you need to would be considered rude. (its not apology per say but being ridiculously humble to a point where you look like ur an idiot )

whereever you heard this, apologizing while tears running down from ur face would indicate exactly this... ur theoratically being so humble ur pretty much giving up ur manhood to the person. Thats some extreme apology that even asians wont even demand.

	10-12-2002 09:55									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai It certainly is difficult to understand why the Koreans are upset.

Stop being obtuse and read what he posted.

He's wondering why they're asking for a personal apology from someone who wasn't even involved with it.

Do you always have to be such a jackass?