11-12-2002 22:14									#31
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Being a U.S. state would entitle it to far more economic benefit than being an EU partner.

	11-12-2002 22:15									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi The US wants to join the EU eventually.

No, we don't!

	11-12-2002 22:16									#33
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler I think you are underestimating the federal structures of the Union.

Are you telling me that France has as much sovereignty as Mississippi?

	11-12-2002 22:18									#34
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No. But "mere state" vs "equal partner" sounds like you are underestimating the federal structures.

	11-12-2002 22:19									#35
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Sovereignty isn't the issue. The U.S. Federal government provides a massive amount of benefits to U.S. States via Federal projects, grants, infrastructure, disaster aid, etc. Also, considering the nature of state sovereignty, joining the U.S. wouldn't force Turkey to ammend quite as much of their laws vis-a-vis civil rights.

	11-12-2002 22:19									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Being a U.S. state would entitle it to far more economic benefit than being an EU partner.

I'm not sure that the average citizen in Turkey would see the economic benifits as being good enough as to being reduced to the status of a state and I dont think the Turkish PM would like to just be a governor.

	11-12-2002 22:20									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Are you telling me that France has as much sovereignty as Mississippi?

France has more, since France can wage war and Mississippi cannot.

	11-12-2002 22:20									#38
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The problems with Turkey are minor apart from one important factor - which makes them major.

Geographical location:
Well Cyprus is in Asia

Culture/Religion:
Just look at Greece (or Cyprus again for that matter).

Level of economic development:
About on a par with the Balkans or Baltic States.


The real problem is it's too damn big - If Turkey joins the EU in 2015 then it will have the same population, and therefore the same voting weight, as Germany with 80m people (Britian and France have 60m and Italy 55m, with Spain and Poland at 40m).
It would immediately become a crucial player in determining the way the EU develops - and as such it's 'minor' differences become far more important.

I do think we in europe could work around these problems, indeed it might be the stimulus for an even closer working relationship between the current members.

I think that we should give turkey a date on which talks for membership will begin.

	11-12-2002 22:22									#39
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Compared to most nation states the EU's federal power is extrodinarially weak. It may one day become a fully functioning federal government but until it has the authority to compell member states into doing things they adimently don't want to do then it will remain a weak federal government whom member states can listen to or ignore at there pleasure.

	11-12-2002 22:26									#40
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quote: Originally posted by el freako The real problem is it's too damn big - If Turkey joins the EU in 2015 then it will have the same population, and therefore the same voting weight, as Germany with 80m people (Britian and France have 60m and Italy 55m, with Spain and Poland at 40m).

That's not much of a problem, because IIRC there's a 30-votes cap. Germany has as much votes as France and Britain, and Turkey also will have only 30 at most. Even Belgia/Netherlands/Luxembourg have together 30, although their added up population is much less than these of the other 30-votes members.

quote: I think that we should give turkey a date on which talks for membership will begin.

I concur, and 2015 sounds realistic. Given, the Turks do their homework.

	11-12-2002 22:27									#41
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You could force them to grant independence to Kurdistan and Armenia as a condition of joining. That should cut down on their population somewhat.

	11-12-2002 22:27									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Sovereignty isn't the issue. The U.S. Federal government provides a massive amount of benefits to U.S. States via Federal projects, grants, infrastructure, disaster aid, etc. Also, considering the nature of state sovereignty, joining the U.S. wouldn't force Turkey to ammend quite as much of their laws vis-a-vis civil rights.

Sovereignty is always an issue Boris especially when an area goes from being an independent state to something less then independent. As I recall we had small squabble between the federal goverment and the states about a hundred years ago. My view is that states like Germany and the UK are stupid for giving up their power to some goverment in Brussels or wherever the Capital would be.

The issue here is, will some Euros drop their holier than thou attitude and allow the Turks to join it. If not, then they should at least be honest that they just dont want "other" people in their little club.

	11-12-2002 22:31									#43
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara France has more, since France can wage war and Mississippi cannot.

A lot of good it does them

	11-12-2002 22:34									#44
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quote: Geographical location: Well Cyprus is in Asia

yet Greek (thus European) in culture.

quote: Culture/Religion: Just look at Greece (or Cyprus again for that matter).

???

Greece has a European culture. And it is Christian.

quote: Level of economic development: About on a par with the Balkans or Baltic States.

turkey is actually poorer than the Baltic states, and poorer than the Balkan state that will join the EU in the coming years (Slovenia).

quote: Does anyone else see in this statement the dripping bias against anything not European?

Duh. Of course there's a bias. It's the EUROPEAN union. Are you saying that the united states of AMERICA is a bias as well?

	11-12-2002 22:35									#45
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Spray:

Exactly.

When the CFSDP gets partly integrated into the community structure and the rest in the 2nd pillar, the EU is pretty much indistinguishable from a decentralised federal state.

I also suggest we rename it the Something Union when the US has changed to the United States of Something.

	11-12-2002 22:39									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber The issue here is, will some Euros drop their holier than thou attitude and allow the Turks to join it. If not, then they should at least be honest that they just dont want "other" people in their little club.

Oh please, drop this teacher attidude, you're scaring me.

We are not against Turkey joining the EU. They have to do some homework concerning human rights, drop the death penalty (yea I know that's a holy cow for you), stop their torturing practices, respect the rights of the Kurds etc., but will be allowed to join in the future, I'm pretty sure.

Without trying to make a direct comparison: What would it take for Afghanistan to join the USA? What would they have to change to be allowed? See my point?

	11-12-2002 22:40									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber The issue here is, will some Euros drop their holier than thou attitude and allow the Turks to join it. If not, then they should at least be honest that they just dont want "other" people in their little club.

Any organization has the right to consider its own interests in a situation like this. Let's compare it to NATO then. Why should NATO allow a nation that has no advantages and might even be a disadvantage to join just because that nation demands it? Would the U.S. be so keen on letting such a thing happen? Of course not.

Asserting it is for racist motives is absurd. There is plenty of historical European racism against peoples of countries that have been allowed to join. To dismiss their reluctance to admit Turkey as racism is unfounded.

	11-12-2002 22:41									#48
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I always thought Ashcroft would make a nice Taleban.

	11-12-2002 22:45									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Duh. Of course there's a bias. It's the EUROPEAN union. Are you saying that the united states of AMERICA is a bias as well?

The United States includes a state that lies far off in the Pacific Ocean. If we can over come thousands of miles of ocean, cant the enlightend Europeans over come the fact that not all the country lies in Europe? Or are poor Muslims that may actually stand up for themselves not to your liking. I'm sure you will let the small muslim countries in since they really wouldnt upset your white Union too much. Tell me is Russia European enough or do the millions of non Euro popultaion dilute their Europeaness.

	11-12-2002 22:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber The United States includes a state that lies far off in the Pacific Ocean. If we can over come thousands of miles of ocean, cant the enlightend Europeans over come the fact that not all the country lies in Europe? Or are poor Muslims that may actually stand up for themselves not to your liking. I'm sure you will let the small muslim countries in since they really wouldnt upset your white Union too much. Tell me is Russia European enough or do the millions of non Euro popultaion dilute their Europeaness.

A small island cahin that was subjugated by white colonials, had most of its native population destroyed and is an extremely important strategic location in the Pacific. It's becoming a state was due to its population being largely American before it was granted statehood in the first place. There is little comparison.

	11-12-2002 22:49									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Oh please, drop this teacher attidude, you're scaring me. We are not against Turkey joining the EU. They have to do some homework concerning human rights, drop the death penalty (yea I know that's a holy cow for you), stop their torturing practices, respect the rights of the Kurds etc., but will be allowed to join in the future, I'm pretty sure. Without trying to make a direct comparison: What would it take for Afghanistan to join the USA? What would they have to change to be allowed? See my point?

The EU has the right to put whatever conditions they think is appropriate. If Turkey is serious about joining then they will comply. My comments are directed to others in this thread

	11-12-2002 22:49									#52
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Ok, where is our Hawai ? Cyprus ?

	11-12-2002 22:52									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Asserting it is for racist motives is absurd. There is plenty of historical European racism against peoples of countries that have been allowed to join. To dismiss their reluctance to admit Turkey as racism is unfounded.

Saying that Turkey cannot join the EU because they are not culturally European isnt just a little racist? That was one of the reasons given wasn't it? What would you say Boris if I stated that an area could not join the US because they weren't culturally American?

	11-12-2002 22:52									#54
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Sprayber, you seem to be the one adopting a "Holier Than Thou" attitude here. Until the U.S. improves its own civil rights and racial relations here, as well as the attitudes towards immigration, then preaching about the Europeans somehow being unfair in this regard is rather hypocrtical.

	11-12-2002 22:53									#55
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Cyprus is our Hawaii, Sprayber. And it's not like you have any big non American states in your Union. So why should we? You got Hawaii, we'll get Cyprus. So what exactly is the difference?

	11-12-2002 22:54									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Saying that Turkey cannot join the EU because they are not culturally European isnt just a little racist? That was one of the reasons given wasn't it? What would you say Boris if a Senator got up in Congress and stated that an area could not join the US because they weren't culturally American?

People say that all the time in Congress when talking about immigrants.

At any rate, that isn't the EU's position, it's St. Marcus's. The EU position is based on Turkey's civil and human rights records as well as economy.

Do you think the US wouldn't object to a Muslim state being admitted to the union, based on its culture? I think there would be tremendous uproar about it, far moreso than we see in Europe.

	11-12-2002 22:57									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Sprayber, you seem to be the one adopting a "Holier Than Thou" attitude here. Until the U.S. improves its own civil rights and racial relations here, as well as the attitudes towards immigration, then preaching about the Europeans somehow being unfair in this regard is rather hypocrtical.

Name one instance that I have said that the US is better in that regard than Europe? Name One. It's some of the Europeans here that do that on a constant basis.

	11-12-2002 22:57									#58
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quote: Saying that Turkey cannot join the EU because they are not culturally European isnt just a little racist? That was one of the reasons given wasn't it?

yeah. one of the reasons. the others being:

turkey's poor economy
turkey's poor human rights record
turkey's tone of voice when demanding to be let in

and yes, also: turkey's different culture. But that's not really the issue now, since Turkey first has to fix the first three. After that, we can discus the rest.

And it does present a fundamental problem. It's a European Union, with a European background and European values. Turkey, especcially the mainland, doesn't share those values or that background. Until that changes, they aren't fit to join.

	11-12-2002 23:00									#59
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French Guayana is the EU's Hawaii.

Or maybe Martinique, French Poynesia, or a host of other EU members outside of Europe.

	11-12-2002 23:03									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov At any rate, that isn't the EU's position, it's St. Marcus's. The EU position is based on Turkey's civil and human rights records as well as economy.

Hmm. That's who I have been discussing this with all along. I think I remember saying that the EU can put whatever conditions they want to on talks. I also think I remember stating that I had a problem with them denying Turkey on the basis of being "culturally different"