11-12-2002 23:03									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Cyprus is our Hawaii, Sprayber. And it's not like you have any big non American states in your Union. So why should we? You got Hawaii, we'll get Cyprus. So what exactly is the difference?

Porto Rico is a non-English speaking part of the U.S. which even has (non-voting) representatives in Congress. Also Louisiana was mostly French speaking when the U.S. purchased that territory from France at the beginning of the 19th century while nearly the entire southwest (as well as Florida) was Spanish speaking when they became part of the U.S.

Cultural differences can be over come given enough time and effort.

	11-12-2002 23:04									#62
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quote: French Guayana is the EU's Hawaii. Or maybe Martinique, French Poynesia, or a host of other EU members outside of Europe.

well, that's true. But can we count them? then again, the same could be said for Hawaii.

	11-12-2002 23:05									#63
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Not many people know that the EU has a land border with Brazil.

	11-12-2002 23:06									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus And it does present a fundamental problem. It's a European Union, with a European background and European values. Turkey, especcially the mainland, doesn't share those values or that background. Until that changes, they aren't fit to join.

Which is more important?

Cultural Heritiage(Cannot be changed)

Economic Condition (Can be changed)

Human Rights Conditions (Can be changed)

	11-12-2002 23:06									#65
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Exactly. Get a map of EU "territories" before you boast with Puerto Rico.

	11-12-2002 23:08									#66
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Anyway.

Current state of Turkey as you all put it:

Poor Economy
Poor Human Rights RECORD
and They didn't ask nicely enough (childish)

Give me a break! The more I think about it, the more I believe it is the whole Muslim thing, trying to get into a Catholic school.

Problems are more easily corrected from the inside then from the outside. Turkey has huge potential to becoming a major contributer to the EU. Maybe so much that acceptance of the country based on their "bad parts" may be a good idea.

quote: Any organization has the right to consider its own interests in a situation like this.

Agreed. Yet, they really need to weigh the pros vs. the cons. I tend to think that the Turkish potential is very high.

	11-12-2002 23:08									#67
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Cultural Conditions and Civil and Human Rights Conditions are often one in the same. Insisting that Turkey ban the death penalty and make other legal changes to bring their civil rights up to code is tantamount to insisting on cultural change, is it not?

	11-12-2002 23:09									#68
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Hersh, The discussion was about culturally different territories and whither or not they can be successfully integrated. I was sighting examples of cases of were they have been successfully integrated. How is that boasting?

	11-12-2002 23:09									#69
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quote: At any rate, that isn't the EU's position, it's St. Marcus's. The EU position is based on Turkey's civil and human rights records as well as economy.

A good number of EU officials and advisors agree with me. Giscard for one.

quote: Cultural Heritiage(Cannot be changed)

Not Cultural heritage, just the present day Culture. culture can change after all.

	11-12-2002 23:12									#70
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quote: Give me a break! The more I think about it, the more I believe it is the whole Muslim thing, trying to get into a Catholic school.

Catholic? Holland isn't Catholic. Neither is Germany, UK, Sweden, Finland, Greece, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

quote: I tend to think that the Turkish potential is very high.

why? what does it has to offer us?

	11-12-2002 23:15									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Hersh, The discussion was about culturally different territories and whither or not they can be successfully integrated. I was sighting examples of cases of were they have been successfully integrated. How is that boasting?

I have stopped serious comments in this threads as it is useless. Your post is an example of the absurdity. The "cultural" divisions you talk about - anglo-hispanic, anglo-french - you may have realised that the original ones, not the colonial derivatives, ARE in the EU. These are mostly language divisions - if you want a real cultural gap, try the muslim world. If you show me the muslim state/territory the US has successfully integrated, fine, I'll be impressed....

	11-12-2002 23:16									#72
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Sapphron and Rugs. Big money man!

quote: Catholic?

fine Christian.

	11-12-2002 23:17									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Cultural Conditions and Civil and Human Rights Conditions are often one in the same. Insisting that Turkey ban the death penalty and make other legal changes to bring their civil rights up to code is tantamount to insisting on cultural change, is it not?

They want even start talking to the Turks Boris. The Turks should already be aware of changes that they are going to have to make. But as of yet, they aren't even being alowed the opportunity to discuss things.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...turkey_greece_2

quote: Wed Dec 4,10:04 AM ET By DEREK GATOPOULOS, Associated Press Writer ANKARA, Turkey - Greek Foreign Minister George Papandreou on Wednesday promised to help Turkey's bid to join the European Union (news - web sites) and Turkey's new government expressed willingness to support a U.N. peace plan to reunite Cyprus. Cyprus' 28-year division is hindering Ankara's hopes of joining the EU and is a main source of tension between Turkey and traditional rival Greece. "There is a will to solve the Cyprus problem that was not there before," Papandreou told Greek journalists after meetings with Turkish Prime Minister Abdullah Gul and Foreign Minister Yasar Yakis. Earlier, Yakis told reporters: "We would very much like to see the problem solved .... We encourage the Turkish Cypriot side to exhaust all options for a solution." Papandreou is one of several European and U.S. envoys visiting Turkey ahead of a European Union summit to plan its enlargement eastward. NATO (news - web sites)-member Turkey is hoping to receive a date to start entry negotiations with the EU when European leaders meet in Copenhagen, Denmark on Dec. 12-13. Cyprus and nine other countries are already close to accession and are expected to be invited at Copenhagen to join in 2004. "We would like to see Cyprus as a model for Europe, a model of Greek-Turkish cooperation, a model of Muslim-Christian cooperation," Papandreou said. The east Mediterranean island has been split since Turkey invaded it in 1974 after a short-lived coup staged by supporters of union with Greece. Cyprus remains divided into the Greek Cypriot government in the south and a breakaway Turkish Cypriot state. After decades of ineffective peace initiatives, the U.N. last month issued a draft settlement aimed at reuniting Cyprus before it joins the EU. Papandreou also met with Marc Grossman, the visiting U.S. under secretary of state for political affairs and telephoned British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, who was also in Ankara. Straw described the new Cyprus plan as an "opportunity" that Ankara should seize. Yakis on Wednesday added his signature to an Olympic Truce, previously signed by his predecessor, Ismail Cem. The Olympic Truce is designed to promote peace during the 2004 Summer Games in Athens. It was inspired by an ancient Greek tradition of stopping warring parties from fighting during the Olympic games (news - web sites) so that warriors could rest and participate in the games.

It looks like that some people are confident that Turkey can pass for EU membership

	11-12-2002 23:18									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Porto Rico is a non-English speaking part of the U.S. which even has (non-voting) representatives in Congress.

Emphasis added.

Too many politicians here like to force the issue by making english the only language in which government business can be conducted, thereby denying access to services to those who do not speak english. I wouldn't call that "successful integration" of other cultures.

	11-12-2002 23:19									#75
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quote: If you show me the muslim state/territory the US has successfully integrated, fine, I'll be impressed....

We are everywhere. Most places know us as The United States of Coca-cola, and out president is Michael Jackson.

Is it not silly that ppl are now trying to "brag" about how there country can destroy cultures?

	11-12-2002 23:21									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber They want even start talking to the Turks Boris. The Turks should already be aware of changes that they are going to have to make. But as of yet, they aren't even being alowed the opportunity to discuss things.

Bollocks. We do not have FORMAL ACCESSION TALKS with Turkey. That's usually 2-3 years before entry.

We have an association agreement, we have a customs union, Turkey recieves aid to establish rule of law, Turkish migrant workers enjoy a preferred status in the EU, and there is a permanent dialogue about those issues, not least in the Association bodies.

But why would I expect anyone here to know or bother with facts.

	11-12-2002 23:26									#77
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Bollocks. We do not have FORMAL ACCESSION TALKS with Turkey. That's usually 2-3 years before entry. We have an association agreement, we have a customs union, Turkey recieves aid to establish rule of law, Turkish migrant workers enjoy a preferred status in the EU, and there is a permanent dialogue about those issues, not least in the Association bodies. But why would I expect anyone here to know or bother with facts.

Then why all the anti-turkish sentiment being expressed? If you give all that money away, why not actually get something for it by brining the Turks in and forceing them to change. I'd like to begin ACCESSION TALKS with the EU if they give me money and i get to do whatever I want.

	11-12-2002 23:30									#78
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quote: Then why all the anti-turkish sentiment being expressed? If you give all that money away, why not actually get something for it by brining the Turks in and forceing them to change. I'd like to begin ACCESSION TALKS with the EU if they give me money and i get to do whatever I want.

There is an agreement, the EU gives them money, the establish rule of law, if they don't they don't get money...
So they can't do whatever they want.
And when Turkey is in the EU, forcing something will be more difficult, since the Turks will be able to vote for it. And i'm not sure if the EU has the right/power to force things.

	11-12-2002 23:31									#79
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"Then why all the anti-turkish sentiment being expressed?"

Some reject Turkey per se, for others like me it has just been incredibly frustrating to see Turkey's corrupt and incompetent leadership, in change with the military, piss away one chance after another.

"If you give all that money away, why not actually get something for it by brining the Turks in and forceing them to change."

You need a minimum level to start from. We need eg independent courts to enforce the precedence of Community law. The EU is a protofederal structure, not some kind of picnic club where you invite people and say "we'll see if he fits in".

	11-12-2002 23:32									#80
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler I have stopped serious comments in this threads as it is useless. Your post is an example of the absurdity. The "cultural" divisions you talk about - anglo-hispanic, anglo-french - you may have realised that the original ones, not the colonial derivatives, ARE in the EU. These are mostly language divisions - if you want a real cultural gap, try the muslim world. If you show me the muslim state/territory the US has successfully integrated, fine, I'll be impressed....

Now days we consider the British, French, and Spanish to be quite similar but during the 18th and 19th centuries the idea that a solidly Protestent country could integrate large Catholic areas without having massive social unrest was considered a great challenge.

The very fact that we now think of Protestents and Catholics as having more in common then not in common makes me hopeful that in the next hundred years people may begin to see Christians and Muslims as having more in common then not.

	11-12-2002 23:33									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph We are not against Turkey joining the EU.

That's not entirely true given the fact that SM refers to the EU as a group of Christian nations.

	11-12-2002 23:35									#82
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quote: If you give all that money away, why not actually get something for it by brining the Turks in and forceing them to change.

first they have to change, then they can join. Not the other way around.

	11-12-2002 23:37									#83
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quote: That's not entirely true given the fact that SM refers to the EU as a group of Christian nations.

Just 2 people speaking for the entire EU...not realizing other people might feel different about these things

	11-12-2002 23:38									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy Just 2 people speaking for the entire EU...not realizing other people might feel different about these things

That's these threads work.

	11-12-2002 23:40									#85
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quote: That's not entirely true given the fact that SM refers to the EU as a group of Christian nations.

I hardly consider most European countries to be religious, let alone Christian. We are far less religious than the US, for instance.

I'm not saying culture is fixed and will for always bar Turkish entry into the Union. I'm saying Turkey's culture first needs to change on certain fundamentic issues, and then they can join (if all other demands are met).

Also, I said I'm for Bosnia's entry into the Union, when the nation is rebuild. That country is quite muslim.

	11-12-2002 23:41									#86
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Then why did you consider the fact that Greece is Christian relevent enough to mention.

PS What is particularly European about Cyprus?

	11-12-2002 23:42									#87
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "Then why all the anti-turkish sentiment being expressed?" Some reject Turkey per se, for others like me it has just been incredibly frustrating to see Turkey's corrupt and incompetent leadership, in change with the military, piss away one chance after another.

It's to the people that reject Turkey out of hand that I'm ranting to. By all means impose whatever conditions the EU deems necessary, but to reject them because they are Turks or because all their country isnt in Europe is stupid. If, as Marcus states, you have to be European enough to join then I think the EU is already headed for trouble. Especially in those places in Europe where muslims are increasing in population.

	12-12-2002 00:02									#88
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This thread reminded me of this picture: the world situation 2050 AD

Attachment: eu-2050ad.gif
This has been downloaded 77 time(s).

	12-12-2002 00:06									#89
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quote: PS What is particularly European about Cyprus?

Cause it's quite Greek.

	12-12-2002 00:12									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Cause it's quite Greek.

Say that in Northern Cyprus.