12-12-2002 00:16									#91
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Many Europeans are opposed to Turkey's entrance into the EU for the same reason that many Americans are opposed to massive illegal immigration from Mexico; they fear being overwhelmed by a mass of people from an alien culture. I think that this is a legitimate concern, but others would qualify it as racism. Which view is right? It's an interesting question that this topic brings up.

BTW, thanks for posting that map, Combat Ingrid. Funniest. Map. Ever. Kudos to the great Paul Hanson for his excellent work.

	12-12-2002 00:19									#92
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Do you really want the Iraq to be a border-nation of the EU? 'Nuff said.

	12-12-2002 00:19									#93
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Turkey should join the EU just as soon as possible.

We've been stringing them along for decades, unless we show willingness, then there will be a backlash.

Settling the Cyprus question is a worthy goal in itself.

It will spread democracy and tolerance throughout the Middle East much better than another bloodbath in Iraq.

It will provide Europe with some much needed young blood.

	12-12-2002 00:32									#94
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"Do you really want the Iraq to be a border-nation of the EU?"

YES! ABSOLUTELY!

Don't you?

	12-12-2002 00:41									#95
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quote: Many Europeans are opposed to Turkey's entrance into the EU for the same reason that many Americans are opposed to massive illegal immigration from Mexico; they fear being overwhelmed by a mass of people from an alien culture.

Que?

I am a Californian, and have been all my life. I grew up in with this "alien" culture all around me every day. I am sure all the residents in the other boarder states would concur that it is not the culture we are afraid of.

I like tacos!

What I don't like about illegal migration of mexicans (as well as all other imigrants from "third world" countries) does not stem from their culture. It stems for the wreckless persuit to abuse the systems within America. I love all the culture.

I think NAFTA has been a good first step in an attempt to better Mexicos economy. One day I hope to see Mexican ppl wanting to stay in their country, and maybe even see Americans jumping the boarder the other way.

	12-12-2002 01:06									#96
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quote: I am sure all the residents in the other boarder states would concur that it is not the culture we are afraid of.

All residents? Can you really speak for every resident in the American border states?

I used the word "many" in my statement for a reason. Not every American feels that way. I wouldn't even go so far as to say most Americans feel that way. But there is a large portion of the US population that is not comfortable with the massive influx of Mexicans, for cultural as well as economic reasons.

	12-12-2002 01:08									#97
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Sorry, not all... but I would argue the most part. I do believe most (not all) would concur.

	12-12-2002 01:09									#98
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and I am only talking about the cultural influence, not the economic issue. I would say it is the economic issues that is the reason why most do not like the illegal immigrants.

	12-12-2002 01:11									#99
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How do you explain the resistance to bi-lingual education then? That seems like a cultural issue, not an economic one.

	12-12-2002 01:20									#100
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Resistence to bi-lingual education is both a cultrual and economic issue.

ESL is a dominant institution throughout the public schools already, form elementry school through college. The financial requirements for these schools (already over crowded and under funded as is) to offer two of every class, one in english and one in spanish, would be drastic. It would also sprout demands from other immigrated cultures to have the classes taught in their language.

A majority of state and governmental documents, with the intention of being presented to the public, are already presented in several language. At a cost, I am sure, is being passed on to the tax payers, and not the illegal immigrants, or legal immigrants soaking up welfare.

Also, the reason for American education is to prepare the student to become an effective part of society. Not their society, but American society. Since a large portion of buisness conducted within the US is conducted in English it would behoove the student to learn that language.

Heck, bi-lingual employees will always get the edge over an equally qualified applicant who speaks only one language.

	12-12-2002 01:24									#101
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Anatolia has always been a central feature of Europe. The separation of Anatolia from "europe" is an invention of the last 500 years.

Turkey will one day be part of the EU: probably before Russia, as Russia is too vast, and unlikely to want to loose its complete independence. BUt Turkey is not ready. Its economy is poor, so it would create problems for how EU money is transfered around (A state like Poland, with less han half the people and far richer by itself has caused some consternation, since most EU money goes to agriculture). Its treatment of Kurds and other ethnic minorities is also underpar, and there are issues of corruption, and the role of the Military in political affairs which all need to be worked out before it could ever join.

The holiuer than thou attitude against the EU form the US is laughable. We have nothing to be holier than the EU about, except maybe farm subsides, and even there is it a stretch.

	12-12-2002 01:27									#102
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I agree with GePap on the Turkey debate. Yet, their desire to change should, in some way, be rewarded.

	12-12-2002 01:32									#103
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quote: Also, the reason for American education is to prepare the student to become an effective part of society. Not their society, but American society. Since a large portion of buisness conducted within the US is conducted in English it would behoove the student to learn that language.

This is the main issue with bi-lingual education, IMO, and it is a cultural one. In order to become an effective member of American society, you must assimilate into American society by learning our language and our culture. The main resistance to this assimilation seems to be coming from Mexican immigrants, which is causing a backlash against them from many Americans. Many Americans don't approve of immigrants who seemingly refuse to assimilate into our society and culture.

There are certainly economic reasons to oppose bi-lingual education, but at its heart I think that it is a cultural issue. Many Americans expect immigrants to make an effort to learn our language and become part of our culture. Bi-lingual education seems to go against this and that is why many Americans oppose it.

	12-12-2002 01:43									#104
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Drake:

You have a point, but...

American Culture is a blend of other cultures. To some extent assimilation is required by all walks of life. The same could be said if say, a mid-westerner moved to somewhere like San Diago. It is a different place with a different society. One in which there is a strong Mexican presence.

When a two cultures merge, the result is something different, but in America, neither culture is completely destroyed.

For example:

I go to a Mexican restaurant in the US/Cali. The cooks and waiters, most of the behind the scenes people speak to each other in Spanish/Mexican. They speak to their customers in English and they serve Mexican food, as well as a select number of "American" dishes, ussually found on the kids menu.

I go to a Mexican restaurant in Mexico. Everyone speaks Spanish to everyone, and good luck finding a Hamburger on the menu.

There is a difference between adjusting and assimilating. One does not need to ditch their culture in order to survive in America, but yes they will have to adapt to the way things are.

If it is Mexican culture to sit on their hands and be good for nothings, then I can see how one could say that it is Mexican culture that is wrong with Mexican Illegal imigration. Yet, all the Mexicans I have know have been some of the smartest, hardest working people I have ever met. Thus, I would still have to say that it is not the Mexican culture that is a soar issue, but the economic impact that is the issue, and in some cases this impact can be drawn to cultural issues.

	12-12-2002 02:00									#105
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quote: American Culture is a blend of other cultures. To some extent assimilation is required by all walks of life. The same could be said if say, a mid-westerner moved to somewhere like San Diago. It is a different place with a different society. One in which there is a strong Mexican presence. When a two cultures merge, the result is something different, but in America, neither culture is completely destroyed.

Very true. I'm not concerned with immigration as long as the migrants eventually assimilate into American culture. And you are right in saying that the immigrants will introduce new elements to American culture as they assimilate. This is natural and has been going on since the earliest days of the Republic. I have no problem with this.

My concern is that the number of Mexican immigrants is becoming so large that it is becoming harder and harder to assimilate them into American society. With the huge numbers of immigrants and the high concentration of these immigrants in the Southwest, it is becoming possible for immigrants to come into the U.S. and avoid assimilation into our culture.

For example, there are some places in the US where it is possible to live your whole life without learning English. Areas like these are almost completely divorced from the predominant American culture, which concerns me. I don't want to see a shadow culture develop in the US; such a development could lead to all kinds of trouble.

The basic point is that many people dislike immigrants who refuse to assimilate into the predominant culture. To get back on-topic, I can see why many Europeans would not want the unrestricted immigration from Turkey that would come along with Turkish EU membership. The Turks have proved to be very resistant to assimilation in the past, and European societies aren't as effective at assimilating immigrants as America is. Cultural issues are definitely involved in the resistance to Turkish EU membership, as are political and economic concerns.

	12-12-2002 02:06									#106
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Yes, to get back on topic. I too can see, after that brief thread-jack, cultural issues that may lead to the EU not wanting Turkey to enter the union right now. I was wrong before.

	12-12-2002 02:17									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten How do you explain the resistance to bi-lingual education then? That seems like a cultural issue, not an economic one.

The problem with "bilingual education" in California was that it was hijacked by a group of left wing "activists" who put the children's political indoctrination first and there education second. Well above 2/3 of the hispanic students enrolled in those programs couldn't speak or read simple English even after they had spent 12 years in "bilingual education". By contrast the huge numbers of Russian, Chinese, & Korean students who also immigrated to California had no trouble learning English, proformed as well as native born students on standardized tests, and were mostly integreated in an average of three to four years.

I refuse to believe the hispanic kids are genetically infearer to the European and Asian kids so that must mean that the method of education being used in "bilingual" classes is what is wrong.

	12-12-2002 03:20									#108
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wow! 4 pages in 6 hours. this must be hottest thread that I have ever posted.

	12-12-2002 04:06									#109
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I'm all for the integration of Turkey, but SirRalph pointed correctly it's too early. However, if we don't show more goodwill than we currently do, Turkey might radicalize itself, and all efforts would have been wasted.

The fear of massive immigration is highly irrational, even if it's very present : we have many agreements with countries like Poland, which gives the same moving possibilities to their citizens than a full membership in the EU, and yet it didn't affect migrations significantly. Same is probable with Turkey.

What can Turkey provide ? Strategically, they can be a true asset for the EU (the concept of common military progresses extremely slowly, but progresses nontheless), with their location and their ability to give great numbers for infantry.
Plus, if their economy progresses, they can be a great help to Eu's economy. Remember 20 years ago, how poor Spain, Portugal, Greece and Ireland were in comparison to the rest of the EU ? Except for Greece, they have all caught back, and now participate in EU economy as equals. Agreed, Turkey has to progress a bit outside the EU, because the investements needed to better their economy are much higher than what Ireland needed.


All the Turks I know of really want Turkey to be part of the EU, and get more disappointed every time it's postponed (granted, all Turks I know live in Germany). I don't doubt Turk's motivation to enter the EU any second.

	12-12-2002 04:07									#110
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to add to my point: yes turks would have their word to say in the affairs of the union. I don't want that. heck, if someone cared to ask my oppinnion about those slav nations joining, I would say NO to them too. slavs are dishonest people, I don't need that to anything.
and those possible imigrants. I don't want them here. we don't need them. so I'm a racist, so what! I think with my own brain and since when has that been bad.

	12-12-2002 04:11									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Andemagne to add to my point: yes turks would have their word to say in the affairs of the union. I don't want that. heck, if someone cared to ask my oppinnion about those slav nations joining, I would say NO to them too. slavs are dishonest people, I don't need that to anything. and those possible imigrants. I don't want them here. we don't need them. so I'm a racist, so what! I think with my own brain and since when has that been bad.

I too can't bear these evil Finns who want to have a say in the union. These Untermenschen sould go to hell

	12-12-2002 04:16									#112
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My unbiased two euro cents.

I see no major problem in Turkey joining the EU provided they adopt its values of human rights, real democracy and respect for the law both international and domestic.

A problem for the EU would be the funds for Turkey that are now provided for mainly by the US. Also if Turkey enters, the financial burden will be on the EU but since military issues remain on national level the US would still use her for whatever it wants.

Hence the EU gets all the financial burden, but fewer of the geopolitical value of Turkey.

And no, I don't think it has tried to change anything but a few facades. Human rights violations continue unfortunately, army still has a strong say as ever in politics and interntional laws vis a vis Greece are still not being respected. (i.e. air space violations)

If all those are fixed, then by all means welcome Turkey.

It would be nice for us and for Turkey to ease down on military spending at last.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 12-12-2002 at 04:22

	12-12-2002 04:25									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Same is probable with Turkey.

only probably. why risk it?

	12-12-2002 04:37									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I too can't bear these evil Finns who want to have a say in the union. These Untermenschen sould go to hell

spiffor:
ok, I try to remember that you said that.

*I don't want, that any turk has anything to say in my affairs. whats bad in that?
*I don't want any turks here, to my own land. whats bad in that?
we have near 10% unemployment rate allready, what would they do for living? even our own people can't make a living, so how could some foreigners?

now that we have started calling eachother names, do you know a good word for person who is anti-racist?

	12-12-2002 04:40									#115
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 My unbiased two euro cents.

you really crack me up

quote: I see no major problem in Turkey joining the EU provided they adopt its values of human rights, real democracy and respect for the law both international and domestic.

I agree. Greece should do the same though, the sooner the better.

btw., The Economist has a feature on this... 'Turkey belongs in Europe' all over front page. Too bad its subscription only

	12-12-2002 04:42									#116
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion btw., The Economist has a feature on this... 'Turkey belongs in Europe' all over front page. Too bad its subscription only

That shouldn't stop you from posting it.

	12-12-2002 04:48									#117
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In the long run Turkey would be good for Europe but it might just have to let go of Kurdistan before the civil war will end and Turkey's human right's record can really improve.

	12-12-2002 04:55									#118
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quote: That shouldn't stop you from posting it.

I dont have the subscription.

	12-12-2002 05:53									#119
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I voted no. Reasons: Economic situation is bad in Turkey, it will drag EU even more than ever. And the most importat one: Human Rights. Turkey is not poster boy in human rights exactly, quite the opposite.
When these things are better, then sure, it's ok to negotiate about it. Before that? Why bother.

I was thinking they should negotiate it now, but after Turkey demanded instead of asking it, the hell with it.

When they meet the demands, then yes. EU does not have to bend the rules for Turkey, or anyone else.
But ultimately sure.. I can't see problems why they couldn't join, just not now.

	12-12-2002 11:51									#120
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No

If the Turkish government has to 'ponder on' wether torturing should be illegalized or not.

And that pretty much tells me everything I want to know their government and politics...