11-12-2002 21:11									#1
	Should Turkey Be Allowed To Join EU? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Should Turkey Be Allowed To Join EU?
well, what do you think? yes, no, something else. and why?

I myself personally think that no. 'cos it would be against the basic ideas of EU, that are 'Union of European Nations' and 'Prosperity in Unity'. turkey is not a european nation and its too different, too poor and turkey is a muslim nation.

	11-12-2002 21:15									#2
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i don't see what religion has to do with it. I say yes...free trade and economic unity should eventually grow to a global scale...and Turkey is European just as Russia is...the majority of the country might not be in Europe but their interests mainly lie in Europe.

	11-12-2002 21:15									#3
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No, and neither should Christmas Pudding.

	11-12-2002 21:16									#4
	Re: Should Turkey Be Allowed To Join EU? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Andemagne its too different, too poor and turkey is a muslim nation.

1) Why was Greece let in then?

2) Do you really want to create a stereotype that the EU is nothing more than a community of Christian nations?

	11-12-2002 21:17									#5
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Not until they bring their human and civil rights records into alignment with the EU's principles.

And yeah, frankly, if they will be a drag on the EU economy, then there is no reason to do so.

	11-12-2002 21:19									#6
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No. Turkey is underdeveloped, has a poor human rights record, and is fundamentally non-European.

And I'm even more against it, since Turkey demands that it should be allowed to join. From where I'm standing, they are in no position to demand anything. This is our union, we chose who we want in. If we let any nation in, they should be grateful, not the other way around. And certainly not an underdeveloped nation like Turkey.

I also don't understand why the US is so pushing for Turkey to join the EU. It's our union, they should mind their own business. It's none of Washington's concerns who we chose to join our union.

	11-12-2002 21:20									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And yeah, frankly, if they will be a drag on the EU economy, then there is no reason to do so.

Should they kick Germany out?

	11-12-2002 21:21									#8
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quote: 2) Do you really want to create a stereotype that the EU is nothing more than a community of Christian nations?

Bosnia will join eventually. Perhaps Albania too. The difference between them and Turkey is that they at least are European in culture.

Also, Christianity is dieing in Europe.

	11-12-2002 21:24									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Should they kick Germany out?

Should the U.S kick out Mississippi?

As much as I'd like to, being already in the group (not to mention a founding member) is different from a new admission.

And Germany is hardly as underdeveloped as Turkey. Apples and oranges.

	11-12-2002 21:29									#10
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Allowed to join the EU in its current state? No.

If the EU were reformed enough so that absorbing many different economies ought not to pose a problem, then I don't see a reason why not as its human rights record is vastly improving.

	11-12-2002 21:36									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus The difference between them and Turkey is that they at least are European in culture. Also, Christianity is dieing in Europe.

How is any of this relevent?

	11-12-2002 21:44									#12
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quote: How is any of this relevent?

It is an European Union, after all. Do you consider Turkey to be a European nation, in culture and geography?

	11-12-2002 21:47									#13
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Partly, yes.

	11-12-2002 21:47									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Do you consider Turkey to be a European nation, in culture and geography?

Yes, I do. It at the very least has a better claim than Russia at being European, IMO.

	11-12-2002 21:47									#15
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Yes, but they have to get their act together first.

	11-12-2002 21:50									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yes, I do. It at the very least has a better claim than Russia at being European, IMO.

Russia has a far higher percentage of its population actually in Europe than Turkey does, has a far larger European land mass, and is more culturally similar to Europe than Turkey is by a large degree.

	11-12-2002 21:57									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus No. Turkey is underdeveloped, has a poor human rights record, and is fundamentally non-European. And I'm even more against it, since Turkey demands that it should be allowed to join. From where I'm standing, they are in no position to demand anything. This is our union, we chose who we want in. If we let any nation in, they should be grateful, not the other way around. And certainly not an underdeveloped nation like Turkey.

Does anyone else see in this statement the dripping bias against anything not European? With attitudes like this the EU will become just another excuse for Europe to push their supposed superiority over the rest of the world. It's the same old thing that has gone down for centuries. Your sounding like a superpower wanna be.

	11-12-2002 22:00									#18
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If Turkey applied for and demanded accession to the USA, would you think such a response acceptable?

	11-12-2002 22:01									#19
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The US wants to join the EU eventually.

	11-12-2002 22:02									#20
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Anyway, Turkey has a very European culture. Heck, the whole Young Turk movement was to modernize and Europeanize the Ottoman Empire, which they've done very well.

The reason Europe doesn't want them is there are too many Turks, who they fear would be able to move and live anywhere in the EU, taking good jobs at lower pay from decent Christian white folks (never mind that Turks are white).

	11-12-2002 22:05									#21
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I don't see why the US should have a vote on Turkey joining the EU or not. If they want, they can make it the 51th of their states. But wait, that's already Israel. The true reason why the USA presses the EU to take Turkey is, because Turkey is threatening to leave the NATO otherwise. And the USA needs Turkey as a reliable air base to keep a hold of the Middle East. Incirlik, anyone?

The answer should be "not yet", for economical and human rights reasons, as mentioned. And they have to change their attitude from "We demand" to "Could we please". But there's no such an option. So "no" remains my choice.

As for the comparison of the economies of Turkey and Germany, yea, it's true. Turkeys economy is far superior. Hundred thousands of German workers already went to Turkey for jobs.

	11-12-2002 22:07									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin If Turkey applied for and demanded accession to the USA, would you think such a response acceptable?

Perhaps if you asked if say Mexico or some small central American country asked to join the US. Otherwise it sounds kind of silly to compare Turkey joining the US and Turkey joining the EU.

	11-12-2002 22:09									#23
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Geographic proximity is more and more meaningless, Sprayber. After all, Turkey has closer ties to the US than Europe and is more firmly under the influence of the US than any other country in the world. It would make as much sense for them to demand the US that they join us.

	11-12-2002 22:10									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I don't see why the US should have a vote on Turkey joining the EU or not. If they want, they can make it the 51th of their states.

Unless I have missed a major development, the US doesn't have a vote in the EU. We can express our desires but in the end it will be up to the Euros to keep those Turks out.

	11-12-2002 22:11									#25
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When they got their act together, and want to join, I say let them. I'm just not sure Turks will still want it once they realise EU membership not only means access to funds, but also hefty limitations on sovereignty.

The US can't wait to get Turkey into the EU for two reasons: 1st as we'd foot the bill for stablising this US ally, and 2nd they see Turkey as a trojan horse to undermine the Union.

	11-12-2002 22:11									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph As for the comparison of the economies of Turkey and Germany,

What I said was that Germany's economy is a drag on the European economy.

	11-12-2002 22:11									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Geographic proximity is more and more meaningless, Sprayber. After all, Turkey has closer ties to the US than Europe and is more firmly under the influence of the US than any other country in the world. It would make as much sense for them to demand the US that they join us.

Since joining the US would mean them being a mere state and joining the EU would mean being an equal partner, why would it make as much sense?

	11-12-2002 22:12									#28
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The reason Europe doesn't want them is there are too many Turks, who they fear would be able to move and live anywhere in the EU, taking good jobs at lower pay from decent Christian white folks (never mind that Turks are white).

I don't buy that Christian rhetoric. I think its just the thought of millions of poor immigrants flooding Europe. The religion, ethnicity or culture is beside the by.

I have reservations about letting Poland and other former Soviet states in too. And you can't say thats due to their culture or religion. Its to do with their economic situation and size of potential migration.

	11-12-2002 22:13									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Since joining the US would mean them being a mere state and joining the EU would mean being an equal partner, why would it make as much sense?

I think you are underestimating the federal structures of the Union.

	11-12-2002 22:13									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What I said was that Germany's economy is a drag on the European economy.

Thank God. That means we'll have to pay less in the common pot in the future. But wait... if it comes to payment, Germany is always considered a giant, while all others are dwarves.