14-12-2002 07:51									#91
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Finally, the Mensheviks are breaking with Chairperson George W. Bush's Bolsheviks. Whichever side wins, at least they'll be less of them for normal people to worry about.

	14-12-2002 08:01									#92
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Nixon said "the trouble with Republicans is, when we get into trouble we start acting like cannibals." And that was back before most Republicans were rabid dogs.

Trent's an interesting test case. If you're Bushy and the RNC, do you let an unreconstructed scumbag racist stay high profile because he represents a big part of your base in the south and risk opening people's eyes to the truth, or do you hang him high, control the damage, but piss off the klansmen who funnel gazillions into GOP state and local elections?

I think in the end you hafta do the latter, because where's the fringe gonna go? Maybe they can run Strom as a States Rights candidate again (don't laugh -- that'd skim 25% of the GOP's southern base).

	14-12-2002 08:04									#93
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Depends on where you are from. To someone from Ann Arbor he may appear to be akin to Genghis Khan.

No. That's John Ashcroft.

What I meant was that if people were abandoning both Bush and Lott, then moderates like Specter are all that are left.

	14-12-2002 09:17									#94
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You know what I was thinking? All right, check this out... I'm not sure the exact percentage of people that voted in the last presidential election, I want to say like, 50% of registered voters which is around 100 million (I might be wrong here, so feel free to correct me). Anyways, less than half voted Republican (remember Gore won popular vote) which makes around say 48 million Republicans. Maybe 5 or 10 million were moderates who tend to sway from left to right depending on candidate, that leaves around 40 million republicans... 40 million out of 300 million... that's like 13% of America.

So really, 13% of America now effectively controls the government. And within that 13% there's different factions of Republicans.

My figures are probably wrong because I basically pulled them outta my 4ss, but the point is that the amount of Republicans in this country is small. Democracy indeed.

	14-12-2002 09:26									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Sava My figures are probably wrong because I basically pulled them outta my 4ss, but the point is that the amount of Republicans in this country is small. Democracy indeed.

Indeed. When people don't vote, they give up their right to democracy. It isn't really fair to unclude non-voters in those statistics. Of course, maybe we should just go ancient greek and socially ostracize non-voters...

	14-12-2002 10:21									#96
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Actually Sava, your percentages are good, but I think your absolute numbers are off. I believe in this last election, 49% of registered voters voted. Of them, 49% voted for Bush, about 24%. Of them, about half were voting against Gore, not for Bush. So roughly 12% of the eligable voters voted for Bush. On top of that consider that many people are eligable to register to vote, but don't bother (but I don't know those numbers).

cyclotron7, people shouldn't be forced to vote. Either they aren't voting because either way, they're fine with the system or either way, they think the system is screwed. Either way, they are making a political choice not to vote.


Wow, real discussions pop-up in a thoroughly Fezzed thread.

	14-12-2002 10:35									#97
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I was just being figurative. I don't think that's a good idea either.

	14-12-2002 10:56									#98
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quote: piss off the klansmen who funnel gazillions into GOP state and local elections

I hate to break up a non-thinking rant, but who are these klansmen that have gazillions of dollars to give to the GOP?

quote: Maybe they can run Strom as a States Rights candidate again (don't laugh -- that'd skim 25% of the GOP's southern base).

Once again, I hate to break up a non-thinking rant, but 25%? More like 5%, at best. You remember what happened Pat Buchanan when he split from the party for becoming too imperialist.

quote: but the point is that the amount of Republicans in this country is small.

So are the amount of Democrats... and Greens... and Libertarians. Republicans are just more populous than any other group right now (Democrats close behind).

	14-12-2002 10:58									#99
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Klansman is a bit of an overstatement, but the Republicans "Southern Strategy" pretty much involves the GOP kissing the hand of Southern racists, who are still plentiful and powerful, despite all the advances that have been made in the South vis a vis race relations.

	14-12-2002 11:01									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Republicans are just more populous than any other group right now (Democrats close behind).

And that's why Gore won the popular vote.

	14-12-2002 11:03									#101
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Democrats are just disgusted by their own party right now, which puts them in the same company with the rest of the country.

	14-12-2002 11:08									#102
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quote: And that's why Gore won the popular vote.

Living in the past much? 2000 was 2 years ago. I saw the 2002 elections and the Republicans pretty much swept that.

quote: but the Republicans "Southern Strategy" pretty much involves the GOP kissing the hand of Southern racists

To a very minor degree. The governor's race in Georgia might have involved in twinge in that (though there are MANY non-rascists that think the flag shouldn't have been changed to that montrosity of thing they call the Georgia flag), but the Senate race had absolutely NO elements of racism.

Lindsey Graham didn't win the Senate seat in South Carolina by appealing to racists. He is definintly not a racist.

	14-12-2002 11:18									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Living in the past much? 2000 was 2 years ago. I saw the 2002 elections and the Republicans pretty much swept that.

As Che said, that really had more to do with complete disenchantment within the democrat ranks than any change in political demographics.

	14-12-2002 11:24									#104
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quote: As Che said, that really had more to do with complete disenchantment within the democrat ranks than any change in political demographics.

Seeing as the Republicans have held the House for the longest period of time since the 1950s, I doubt the truth of that. I could easily say that 2000 had to do with disenchantment with Republicans for Bush.

If there WERE more Democrats, the House never would have fallen back to the Republicans, would it? After all the House, more than any other instution, shows how many people belong to a party.

	14-12-2002 12:00									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui If there WERE more Democrats, the House never would have fallen back to the Republicans, would it? After all the House, more than any other instution, shows how many people belong to a party.

Not really, since larger states are slightly under represented. Besides, the Democrats totally failed to deliver to their constitutants when they had Congress and the Presidency from 1993 - 1995. Despite having control, they still let the Republicans set the agenda and tried to rule by consensus with the Republicans. The DP hasn't been losing voters to the Republicans, they've been losing voters out of the system.

	14-12-2002 12:42									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Sava the point is that the amount of Republicans in this country is small.

As Imran said there are a small number of Democrats as well, but you also seem to assume that if people who don't vote wouldn't vote Republican if they were forced to vote. No one can know this for sure.

quote: And that's why Gore won the popular vote.

That doesn't prove in any way that there were more Gore supporters than Bush supporters, because the electoral college system automatically makes the 'popular vote' an unreliable statistic. Say you live in a state where it's painfully obvious that one of the candidates will win by a wide margin (like Texas or California), and you don't bother to vote.

Another example is uncounted absentee ballots. Say Gore wins in a state by a million votes, and then 999,999 absentee ballots come in. Those ballots aren't counted because they couldn't possibly have any effect on who wins that state. Since absentee ballots are traditionally tilted to the right, had those ballots been counted it might have changed the 100,000 or so margin in the popular vote.

For these two reasons you can say Gore won the popular vote as it is counted, but the 'popular vote' that we see in an election with the electoral college system isn't a carbon copy of the vote we'd see were the system based on a national popular vote. If there were no electoral college system Gore may still have won anyway, but you can't be sure based on a statistic as totally unreliable as the popular vote as it is collected under the current system.

	14-12-2002 12:47									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 Another example is uncounted absentee ballots. Say Gore wins in a state by a million votes, and then 999,999 absentee ballots come in. Those ballots aren't counted because they couldn't possibly have any effect on who wins that state. Since absentee ballots are traditionally tilted to the right, had those ballots been counted it might have changed the 100,000 or so margin in the popular vote.

Uh, absentee ballots are counted regardless of whether there is enough to change the outcome of the election. All votes are counted.

'Cept in Florida, of course.

	14-12-2002 12:54									#108
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You sure about that? At the time when people kept whining 'popular vote this' and 'popular vote that', I read that in fact over a million California ballots weren't entered into the popular vote because of their obsolescence. It was 2 years ago and I forget where, but if you want I'll look the damn thing up.

At any rate, the first factor I mentioned still holds. Don't get me wrong, I'm not making the bald-faced assertion that Gore didn't win the popular vote, just saying that it's an unrealistic stat when used to define the number of Dems and Republicans in the entire nation. Can we at least agree there?

	14-12-2002 14:24									#109
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually Sava, your percentages are good, but I think your absolute numbers are off. I believe in this last election, 49% of registered voters voted.

In the prez election, yes. It's even better for the midterm election -- about 35% of eligible voters did their thing, and by pure numbers it was almost an exact 50/50 split (the GOP only picked up ground because of overrepresentation of small states -- in reality, by one man one vote you'd still have a decent Democratic majority in the House).

Effectively, 17% percent of eligible voters (in control of about 67% of all American wealth) have a stranglehold on all three branches. It's the Dems' own fault for not being able to motivate the 50% of eligible voters who NEVER vote -- almost all of whom are poor and or minority and even farther left than the Dems.

	14-12-2002 14:26									#110
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They can "defect" all they want... but when it comes down to a real election, given a choice between Bush and some liberal Dem... who do you think they are going to vote for

	14-12-2002 17:20									#111
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Actually, my point was to show that there are more Dem's in the country ... it was to show that if people got off their lazy asses and voted, we could get these moronic, freedom stealing, corporate pocket-filling, environment destroying, self-righteous religious wackos out of office.

	14-12-2002 21:54									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 You sure about that? At the time when people kept whining 'popular vote this' and 'popular vote that', I read that in fact over a million California ballots weren't entered into the popular vote because of their obsolescence. It was 2 years ago and I forget where, but if you want I'll look the damn thing up. At any rate, the first factor I mentioned still holds. Don't get me wrong, I'm not making the bald-faced assertion that Gore didn't win the popular vote, just saying that it's an unrealistic stat when used to define the number of Dems and Republicans in the entire nation. Can we at least agree there?

I can't think of anything in election law that would allow you to disregard legal ballots. Obsolesence isn't a factor--everyone's vote is counted.

Of course it doesn't prove there are more Democrats, as people aren't required to vote along party lines.

However, by registration numbers, Democrats still hold an edge in the country over Republicans. It has shrunk over the past few years, but they still have an edge. The problem is their voters are harder to get to the polls. Contrary to Sava's assertion, it isn't pure laziness. It's about time, having to work, disillusionment with the candidates, and in many cases blatant misinformation campaigns against poor urban and minority voters.

	14-12-2002 22:07									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Obsolesence isn't a factor--everyone's vote is counted.

And in Chicago... Many of the Democrats get their vote counted multiple times

	14-12-2002 22:11									#114
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That joke starts to get stale after it is repeated for the millionth time, Ming.

	14-12-2002 22:34									#115
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It's not a joke... but the truth.
I always laugh when people whine that Gore won the popular vote, because in Chicago, and other major democratic cities, many extra votes were counted for Gore... more than enough to make the difference in the total popular vote.

	14-12-2002 23:45									#116
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uh huh

	15-12-2002 00:16									#117
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I don't really understand why Americans vote for a party that seems to be controlled by the very wealthy few, and the corporations. But then, both parties fit that description. Which probably explains why so many people don't vote at all.

Sadly it's the same here... no meaningful choices, really. Hopefully, the general populace can wait for the next oedo year, and then...

	15-12-2002 00:27									#118
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Six, that is a wrong assessment... I think differently, the party is not controlled by the wealthy few. And what the hell is wrong with a corporation? The only people who say corporations are bad are commies.

	15-12-2002 00:30									#119
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quote: it was to show that if people got off their lazy asses and voted, we could get these moronic, freedom stealing, corporate pocket-filling, environment destroying, self-righteous religious wackos out of office.

And replace them with other moronic, freedom stealing, corporate pocket-filling, environment destroying, self righteous religious wackos?

	15-12-2002 01:26									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Six, that is a wrong assessment... I think differently,

That seems to be your usual argument. Just because you don't agree, doesn't make it wrong.

quote: And what the hell is wrong with a corporation?

Nothing in itself - unless the corporation(s) have greater influence with government than the actual voting citizens. We can always vote out a government - but you can't vote out the influence big oil (for example) has with governments. When corporations start flexing their muscle in government, democracy erodes.

It doesn't bother you that western governments are more often influenced by corporate donors and lobbyists than by individual citizens? It doesn't bother you that multinationals routinely threaten (i.e. blackmail) to move their production lines out of countries that don't enact corporate friendly labour laws? It doesn't bother you that these same corporations evade taxes by keeping their head offices in tax-free jurisdictions, despite having virtually no business ties to these jurisdictions?

If these things don't bother you...

quote: The only people who say corporations are bad are commies.

The only people who generalize like this are Fezzes. I'd rather be a commie.