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chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 13-12-2002 22:40 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Hard Core Conservatives Defecting From Bush? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Rock-ribbed Republican -- and anti-Bush
The newest, most outspoken critics of the war on terrorism and Iraq are conservatives.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Michelle Goldberg



Dec. 13, 2002 | Chuck Baldwin, a radio host in Pensacola, Fla., is as right-wing as they come. He's the chairman of the state chapter of the Moral Majority and the founder and pastor of Pensacola's Crossroad Baptist church, where his guest speakers have included Jerry Falwell and Patrick Buchanan. His Web site features a waving Confederate flag, pictures of a "memorial to aborted babies," and rants about Bill Clinton's murder of Vince Foster.

But he's no Bush supporter either. In fact, as he wrote in a widely Web-circulated Nov. 26 essay, the "Bush administration seems determined to turn our country into the most elaborate and sophisticated police state ever devised."

As the Bush White House faces a predictable chorus of left-wing critics complaining about increasing encroachments into civil liberties in the name of fighting terror, it has also begun to hear from more and more conservatives saying the same thing.

The ACLU expects former Rep. Bob Barr -- the Georgia Republican who was a driving force behind the Clinton impeachment -- to join the group as a consultant on privacy issues, and it's negotiating with Rep. Dick Armey (R-Texas) to do the same. Phyllis Schlafly, the Eagle Forum founder and ERA opponent, worries that some Pentagon programs are leading us toward the "Big Brother government as imagined by George Orwell." Lisa Dean, director of the center for technology policy at right-wing Republican activist Paul Weyrich's Free Congress Foundation, describes Bush's expansion of domestic surveillance programs as "antithetical to everything we stand for." New York Times hawk William Safire has made similar points in his column, warning, "This is not some far-out Orwellian scenario. It is what will happen to your personal freedom in the next few weeks if John Poindexter" -- the Iran-contra operative who now heads the Defense Department's Information Awareness Office -- "gets the unprecedented power he seeks."

The dramatic political realignments among the left occasioned by Sept. 11 have been well documented. Schisms have opened among erstwhile comrades over the proper response of what commentator Christopher Hitchens calls "Islamo-facism" -- and over our culpability in fomenting it in the first place. Below the liberal radar, through, similar shake-ups are happening on the right. Though plenty of people on the right have always been authoritarian cultural conservatives, there's also been a strong libertarian strain in the conservative movement. Now, conservative libertarian principles -- chiefly small government and individual liberty -- are clashing with a triumphant right-wing radicalism eager to exercise American power and make the world anew.

"We're not dealing with traditional conservatism," Baldwin says. "We're dealing with pseudo-conservatism that's very accommodating of big government instead of resisting big government and promoting individual freedom."

Half a century ago, in the inaugural edition of the right-wing National Review, William F. Buckley wrote that it was the duty of conservatives to "stand athwart history and yell 'Stop!'" Now the Weekly Standard -- the must-read barometer for Bush foreign policy -- crows, "The Left wallows in cynicism, while the Right is full of starry-eyed dreamers." This right wing, run by neoconservative ex-'60s radicals, is the chief engine of a new kind of radicalism in America. The administration is seizing unprecedented powers in its righteous war against terrorism. The radicalism of the right -- its overarching vision of a changed world -- may be why some left defectors like Hitchens seem to feel more comfortable among them than among liberal defenders of the status quo.

But it's also why some old-school conservatives, dedicated by definition to defending the status quo, suddenly appear to be alienated.

Philip Gold, a former Georgetown professor who campaigned for Barry Goldwater, worked on Steve Forbes' presidential run, and has written for publications like the Weekly Standard and the American Spectator, finds the new direction of the conservative movement so disturbing that he's pulled a Hitchens. He recently resigned from his job as a senior fellow in National Security Affairs at Seattle's conservative Discovery Institute because of his opposition to the war with Iraq, and bid farewell to the right in general in a Seattle Weekly article called, natch, "Goodbye to All That."

"Over the last several years," he wrote, "I've become sadly convinced that American conservatism has grown, for lack of a better word, malign." The movement he's devoted his life to, he writes, "has gained the government, trashed its soul, and now bestrides the planet."

"We no longer have a commitment to limited government," he says. "I no longer recognize the movement. What I started out with isn't there anymore. The fact that mainstream conservatives are going along with [Total Information Awareness] and with TIPS indicates that these principles are no longer resonant in the movement."

The reason? "Power corrupts," he writes. "It corrupts especially when you've got it, but can't seem to accomplish what you set out to do, and you've jettisoned your ideals somewhere along the way but can't quite face the fact."

To conservatives like Gold, the Bush administration has betrayed its principles by expanding the federal bureaucracy and authorizing vast new domestic surveillance programs. If big government spying programs are going to be defeated, such conservatives are going to play a major role. After all, it was Armey who finally ensured the death of TIPS, the proposed Justice Department program that would have recruited mail carriers, meter readers and other workers with access to private homes to act as government informants. Armey added language to the Homeland Security Bill specifically outlawing both TIPS and a national I.D. card. "The leadership of Congressman Armey was very important," says Barry Steinhardt, director of the ACLU's technology and liberty program. "Elements of the conservative movement and of the Republican party have held to their principles of limited government."

Right now, the one issue uniting civil libertarians on the left and right is Total Information Awareness, a Pentagon program being run by Poindexter that aims to create a centralized grand database of Americans' credit card purchases, medical histories, education records and other information. Through mining such data, the government hopes to discern patterns that will help catch terrorists. The problem, of course, is that to do so the government has to gather and sift through private information on millions of innocent citizens.

For liberals, such programs recall hated government spying operations like COINTELPRO, under which the FBI infiltrated and attempted to sabotage the civil rights movements of the '60s and early '70s. But conservatives have their own nightmares of federal power run amok -- especially after the events at Ruby Ridge and Waco, where federal agents killed religious fundamentalists who tried to live outside government's prying eyes. For them, Total Information Awareness raises the specter of Washington bureaucrats poring over their gun records, examining their church affiliations, and meddling in the lives of people who want only to be left alone.

"We don't want the government to monitor our daily activities," says Schlafly. "Technology is moving so fast. When they're able to combine our medical records, travel records, education records, gun purchases, credit card records, this is total information that I don't think the government should have about law-abiding citizens if we value freedom."

Of course, after Sept. 11 many Americans are quite willing to trade some freedoms for increased security. Yet this bargain, says Dean, is a betrayal of her brand of conservatism. "I never thought I'd see conservatives running to the government to solve problems like they do now. That's just not conservatism to me," she says. "People look at Homeland Security, the USA PATRIOT Act, national I.D. cards and say, if that protects us, we'll go ahead. I never would have thought I'd hear conservatives say that," she says.

Had Clinton been president, she says, conservatives would have "pulled together and fought" these initiatives, even after 9/11. She says the fact that many are complacent in the face of Bush's incursions is a matter of personality, not principle. "Conservatives trust Bush. They think he wouldn't do anything to harm them, that everything he's doing is for a noble cause," she says. Dean worries that such personal affinity blinds her ideological brethren to the massive structural changes taking place in government. "The groundwork we're laying now, we're laying for the next administration and one after that and one after that. At the same time, we're raising a generation of citizens on the belief that it's OK to give up all of our liberties in exchange for security. That's un-American."

In other words, mainstream conservatives favored limiting government powers when they didn't run the government. For example, as a senator, John Ashcroft was a consistent defender of privacy rights when he felt Clinton was trampling them.

"Both Ashcroft and President Bush have departed from their earlier emphasis on protecting privacy and have really become statists, who want to impose the power of the state on us to surveil us and also to prevent any dissent," says the ACLU's Steinhardt. "They're certainly not conservatives when it comes to wielding the powers of the state."

In fact, says Steinhardt, the real conservatives are now … the ACLU. "We think of ourselves as the most conservative organization in America," he says. "We're dedicated to preserving the values of an 18th century document."

Of course, this kind of rhetoric is nothing new coming from liberal civil libertarians. What is new is how many conservatives have come to agree. Asked who is standing in the way of government assault on civil rights, Baldwin names only one group -- the ACLU. He talks fondly of forming alliances with liberals to stand up to Bush and Ashcroft. "The door is wide open for something like that," he says. "Left and right can disagree on several issues, but the one issue we should all be concerned about is the preeminent issue of freedom."


- - - - - - - - - - - -

About the writer
Michelle Goldberg is a staff writer for Salon based in New York.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 13-12-2002 at 23:04

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 13-12-2002 22:42
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Hasn't the Patriot movement always shared your view of the danger of federal power?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 13-12-2002 22:46 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Probably, but they always thought their side would do something about it once in power. Now they learn that their side is just as bad.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Probably, but they always thought their side would do something about it once in power.
Thier side doesn't exist in American politics, che.

gsmoove23 is offline gsmoove23
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Oct 2002
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  Old Post 13-12-2002 22:51
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I'm happy to see that Apolyton has gotten on board and decided that names like **** Cheney and **** Armey are too offensive to print.

Sava is offline Sava
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  Old Post 13-12-2002 22:53
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It's just a perfect example on why this country should not be a strictly two-party government. Many people that have conflicting political views are forced to conform to one of the big party platforms in order to participate in government. I think that both parties should break up. Let these ultra-conservative wackos have their own party, let the "pseudo-conservative" police state Bush types have their own party, let moderates have their own party, let leftists have their own parties. I'd like to see some sort of public forum instead of this "money buys campaigns" crap so that Democracy can truly function.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Chegitz that article is a load of crap...

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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  Old Post 13-12-2002 22:59
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It's Bald-Faced Assertion man, once again to the rescue!!!

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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  Old Post 13-12-2002 23:08 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Edit: Language, If I post bad language it will only make me look bad.

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
It's Bald-Faced Assertion man, once again to the rescue!!!

Az is offline Az
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 13-12-2002 23:08
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don't you diss, the BAM, boris!!!

(he's right this time)

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Sava: What basis does a liberal have to say something like that? He can't even back up what he is saying.

And don't you ever call me BAM again... because you liberals aren't any better than that. You accuse me of that crap while you can't even back up a single damn thing you say.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
don't you diss, the BAM, boris!!!

(he's right this time)


Pfft. Why would he choose to start now, of all times?

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Edit: Language, If I post bad language it will only make me look bad.

Language is the least of your worries

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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I'll bet Fez didn't even read it.

Sava is offline Sava
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What are you referring to Fez? My desire to have multiple parties? I'm confused again, it happens often

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Chegitz, I did. And after careful analysis, I officially have given that article a "load of crap" rating.

Sava, you opening your mouth is the least of your worries.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
He can't even back up what he is saying.


Uh, except that he does. See all that writing after the headline? It's called an article, and in it he backs up his assertion through documenting sources.

Sure, it's not as potently unquestionable as saying "That's a load of crap!" But it is backed up.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
What are you referring to Fez? My desire to have multiple parties? I'm confused again, it happens often


What the hell are you talking about? Spit out your point and stop evading points.

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Sava, you opening your mouth is the least of your worries.


Attempted comeback... 0.00001/10

Explain to me, how am I worried about opening my mouth? Actually, nevermind...

Fez, I love you!

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Uh, except that he does. See all that writing after the headline? It's called an article, and in it he backs up his assertion through documenting sources.


The article is biased and a load of crap. Period. Some articles tend to be that way... especially when they are written from a particular viewpoint I don't have respect for. The radical left does not speak with sources.

quote:
Sure, it's not as potently unquestionable as saying "That's a load of crap!" But it is backed up.


It is not backed up becuase it just is rhetoric.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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What part of the article do you disagree with, Fez?

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava


Attempted comeback... 0.00001/10

Explain to me, how am I worried about opening my mouth? Actually, nevermind...

Fez, I love you!


And I hate your guts.

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez


What the hell are you talking about? Spit out your point and stop evading points.


Evading points???? When you say I have no basis for say that what are you referring to. What did I say that I don't have any basis for saying?

Fez, what are you talking about??

Are you trying to confuse me more?

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
What part of the article do you disagree with, Fez?


Any hints about defections from the Republican party are false.

Sava is offline Sava
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Any hints about defections from the Republican party are false.

And this opinion of yours comes from your many years of experience in American politics?

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava

And this opinion of yours comes from your many years of experience in American politics?


Nope, I am just saying a prediction.

Why are you mocking me with your liberal garbage? Really I would like to know why?

monkspider is offline monkspider
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  Old Post 13-12-2002 23:21
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We all love the BAM!

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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  Old Post 13-12-2002 23:22 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Got spare money?

Monkspider, who is BAM? The liberals and commies here? Yeah I guess so.

Sava is offline Sava
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Nothing like a good fezzing to cheer me up. This is the most fun I've had on Apolyton in a while.

You're starting to sound like Rush Limbaugh with all this "liberal garbage talk"... next you'll tell us how there's this deep-rooted liberal conspiracy in the media

 
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