16-12-2002 02:20									#1
	PC game sales decline for first time ever, Console sales continue to break records Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/3524128.html

quote: Console games are winning the sales race with PC games Steve Alexander Star Tribune Published Dec. 11, 2002 GAME11 There is a war being fought for the hearts of consumers who love games. On one side is the venerable PC, on the other side the video-game console. The consoles are winning. The NPD Group of Port Washington, N.Y., is expected to announce today that unit sales of PC games fell 6.2 percent through the first 10 months of this year, marking the first such decline ever. Meanwhile, NPD projects that console video-game sales will break all sales records this year, with hardware and software sales totaling more than $10 billion, up from $9.4 billion in 2001. Of that, about $5 billion represents video-game sales. PC game sales are projected to reach only $1.4 billion, or flat with 2001, said Steve Koenig, an analyst at NPD's PC software tracking division. "The shift to buying video games is definitely the main reason behind flagging sales of PC games," Koenig said. Game consoles now rival PCs in the quality of game play, graphics and sound, and recently have entered online gaming, formerly available only on PCs, he said. Consumers whose primary interest is gaming can more economically buy a $150 Nintendo GameCube or a $200 Microsoft Xbox or Sony PlayStation 2 than a PC, which costs a minimum of $500 and typically is closer to $1,000. Video games also have benefited from the growth in the game-playing population, which is due to the aging crowd of players who cut their teeth on PC games, before the advent of improved console machines, such as Sony's first PlayStation. Studies have shown that people of all ages play some computer games, but the bulk of the audience for both video games and PC games now is 34 and younger, said Richard Ow, another NPD analyst. Advertising The shift to video games has been evident in TV advertising this season. Two of the most-advertised titles -- "Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell," about a stealthy spy, and "007 Nightfire," about the glitzy adventures of James Bond -- have been advertised for use on a console, not a PC. The shift to the video-game console as the chief game-playing machine began with the fall 2000 introduction of the Sony PlayStation 2 and accelerated last fall with the availability of the Microsoft Xbox, Koenig said. Until the introduction of the PlayStation 2, PC games always were a little more sophisticated and capable, while console games generally were regarded as being for younger children, he said. "PlayStation 2 changed things, likely forever. It began a shift over to the console form of gaming," Koenig said. "For game players, there may be some surprise that this has happened so quickly. I think maybe they expected it over a three-to four-year period." Game developers appear to have seen the trend coming. From January through October this year, they produced 9.6 percent fewer new PC titles than they did a year ago, or 750 titles in 2002 vs. 830 in 2001, Koenig said. "The game-console market is very hot, and so marketers of gaming software are putting their development dollars into that," he said. Revenue from PC game sales are projected to remain virtually flat for the full year, despite the unit sales decline, because prices have increased. Some top-selling PC games sell for more than $50, a price once viewed as impregnable, according to NPD, which produces widely followed market research that is based on actual retail sales. Consumers won't see the apparent decline of the PC game reflected at their local electronics store yet. And in the short term, the greatest impact will be felt by the console makers -- Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo. "The real winners are the console companies, because they will be getting more and more licensing fees," Koenig said. Game developers pay licensing fees to the game-console makers for the rights to produce games for a particular console. There are no comparable fees for developing PC games, he said. PC games still here But no one is predicting the demise of PC game-playing just yet. Koenig believes PCs are likely to hold on to their core audience of sophisticated game enthusiasts and are likely to continue their lead in online gaming because PCs are more suited to it. Meanwhile, the broader audience is likely to continue to migrate toward the video-game consoles. "There is a generally held belief that PC games will continue to be under sales pressure from console games in 2003 and likely beyond," Koenig said. "It is painfully evident that PC developers will have to do something to attract game buyers to the PC." Failure to do so could have a sweeping effect, Koenig said. Games long have been one of the reasons people upgraded to newer PCs, because the games often required faster chips, add-on memory, disk drives and graphics boards in order to function properly. But the absence of such reasons for consumers to upgrade their PCs could be bad news for an industry already hit by slack sales. Consumers already have found that older PCs handle most other computing tasks as well as newer, faster models. But the future of PCs as game machines is clouded by uncertainty over what next-generation game consoles may look like, Koenig said. He believes consoles may begin to resemble PCs that are in the living room instead of in a home office. While today's PlayStation 2 and Xbox consoles can play games, DVD movies and audio CDs, future consoles also may incorporate TV accessories, such as DVD recorders and personal video recorders, which seek out and record programs by automatically browsing TV listings, he said. "The Xbox already is half a step toward being a PC in the living room," Koenig said. "The next-generation game consoles might look more like PCs and are likely to offer a great deal of utility."

It's now even more obvious why MS really wanted into the console market. One of the main reasons windows is a monopoly is its PC game support, and if people are moving to consoles, they wanna keep that too.

	16-12-2002 02:24									#2
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quote: Game consoles now rival PCs in the quality of game play, graphics and sound, and recently have entered online gaming, formerly available only on PCs, he said.

Uhm hello!!?? nah, gameplay on computer is a lot better...
and think of the horrible console controller instead of trusty mouse and keyboard!!



Consoles are for dumbasses who don't know how to use strategy and don't know how to use a computer decently enough to play games...
In fact the games on console are lot more biased to children and the mentally retarded (i mean normal ppl with a children's attitude though)

	16-12-2002 02:26									#3
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Well Trajanus, I can't say that I value your input, but I thought it was great how you said "Console's for dumbasses" because it made me laugh at the blatant hypocrisy.

And I prefer console games to PC games in general myself, and I think I know how to use a computer "decently" at the very least.

	16-12-2002 02:27									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Tell us how you really feel, Trajanus .

	16-12-2002 02:27									#5
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Console's for dumbasses who don't know how to use strategy and don't know how to use a computer decently enough to play games...

Consoles are almost the only thing keeping the adventure genera alive at this point so I wouldn't be too critical of them.

	16-12-2002 02:34									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Perhaps the flagging PC sales have more to do with the pathetic games on offering at the moment for pc (check out the top-10 pc sales in the community thread if you don't believe me) and the fact that competition in the console world is fierce - meaning that there are many great games released for them. You say that people are buying more console games than pc games - well duh!

	16-12-2002 02:39									#7
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Consoles are as good as PC's in the realm of action games (Fighting games, Tom lancy type games, so forth), and consoles have a few things that PC's lack:

Consoles allow gamers to play with ususally up to 3 extra friends right in the room: PC games have never been as social as console games, and now tha you can play online on comsoles,the one advantage in social gaming PC' had will be gone.

You getter better graphics for less with consoles.

PC's will always be best for strategy games, but these are not the biggest sellers on the market, never have been.

	16-12-2002 02:43									#8
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Consoles are almost the only thing keeping the adventure genera alive at this point so I wouldn't be too critical of them.

Adventures?? Consoles???? I take it you're not talking about the good old LEC or Sierra type of games then...

	16-12-2002 02:44									#9
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Hueij Adventures?? Consoles???? I take it you're not talking about the good old LEC or Sierra type of games then...

The adventure genera on the PC is on currently on life support.

	16-12-2002 02:45									#10
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quote: because it made me laugh at the blatant hypocrisy

hypocrisy..where? if you are referring to my typo...well that's cos i type quickly and not in my own language, kay?

quote: Perhaps the flagging PC sales have more to do with the pathetic games on offering at the moment for pc

I don't really agree with you on that... There is actually loads of new good games being released at the moment... a great example is Age of Mythology, undoubtedly a classic already..

I do have to admit that there is (on pc too) a big pile of crap such as the Sims (that has this success due to the large amount of women that buy it) but that's everywhere...

I only know that all the console ports to PC are authentic crap, the design is absolute horror and in lots of cases the awful save system is still in the PC version!!

Btw check out microsoft's new flightsim (based on WWII again i believe... that one rocks)

	16-12-2002 02:46									#11
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I guess since many PC games just aren't worth paying money for the guys with know how just steal them from the net. The guys with no know how don't have a computer or dont know it's potential so get consoles. I love both, but also consoles (with their gamepads and MUST be perfect without patch requirements) just so happen to be the platform for the games that people want to play right now.

	16-12-2002 02:47									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I actually find the graphics better on my TFT screen than on my TV.. (too much blocks and so on...hate seeing blocks)

of course, all depends on what you're willing to spend on your computer..

	16-12-2002 02:49									#13
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quote: I guess since many PC games just aren't worth paying money for the guys with know how just steal them from the net. The guys with no know how don't have a computer or dont know it's potential so get consoles.

All my mates with playstation copied their games... it exists too for console , don't be naïve!!! piracy is everywhere !

btw

quote: Tell us how you really feel, Trajanus

I feel like taking a piss, you interested in that imran?

	16-12-2002 02:58									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Why is this "who's better" spirit? Computers are a great multi-purpose tool, with most of it's use being serious bussiness, PLUS being able to fullfill gaming needs fully. Consoles are action/adrenaline, Socially oriented machines, designed for high-intensity gaming.

They're both great. You couldn't play a strat game on a console (like the civ series), and you'd enjoy yourself more having a couple of friends playing with you, for a fraction of the price of a computer, but without the bussiness applications.

It's all good.

	16-12-2002 03:02									#15
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no i bear a grudge against console because many developers and game designers go to console because there's more money t earn there.. bad games even sell more there than good PC games..

Because of that talented designers don't do pc games anymore, and the big companies as well... and that's no fun for us gamers if they stop supporting games that are released for example...

	16-12-2002 03:10									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Sh*tty console games can kiss my ass. Computer games will always lead ahead. This decline is temporary and it will quickly reverse. It is obvious that computer games are superior to console games in general, and that is what counts.

And especially this is a load of crap:

quote: Game consoles now rival PCs in the quality of game play, graphics and sound, and recently have entered online gaming, formerly available only on PCs, he said.

Excuse me? Whoever said that probably was smoking some serious crap. PC games will always have better game play, graphics and sounds because the hardware is better. The X-box has a celeron right? So it can kiss my ass.

Oh and you console lovers, should just wait until PC game companies release their vicious assault coming after Christmas. SimCity4, Vietcong, and all these other games will really tear apart the console market. From what I see, the superior hardware in PCs have already alienated consoles from making any further gains.

	16-12-2002 03:19									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The adventure genera on the PC is on currently on life support.

And it's non-existent on the consoles. I think you're overestimating the deaths of the adventure genre. I bet I could go into software Etc and find at least 10-20 adventure games on the shelves.

	16-12-2002 03:24									#18
	Put an end to popups!

I hear their working on a new Broken Sword (III) !!

Btw adventures still exist on PC such as Syberia etc, but they're maybe not the big budget titles you hear much about..


Btw: Holy cow, i agree with Fez... amazing

	16-12-2002 03:25									#19
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quote: You getter better graphics for less with consoles.

When they first come out they might have competitive graphics, but not once they they're 1-2 years old.

Also, as a side issue, IIRC, it's more expensive to make games for consoles (ie, paying for the license, harder to program for, etc). computers will likely always continue to house indie publishers, shareware, freeware, etc.

	16-12-2002 03:29									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The only reason PC market is falling is because eveyone who needs a computer has one, and not everyone has an income to get a new computer every 18 months.

The last console I bought (well not really, XMAS gift) was the SNES. I tried NU64 and PS (PS/2) etc... I just never got into them at that point. Mainly because I hate that thumb stick they use now. And I believe that third-person views are blantent cheats, particulary when looking around corners.

I like PC games because
1: You can modd them as a general rule.
2: Are generaly first person whe applied (most can switch).
3: I feel very comfortable with a Keyboard/Mouse.
4: If I'm in a flight sim, or some Mech game, Joysticks work well.
5: I already have 2 computers, why should I get a crippled one for the TV?

Of course, I could go out and get an emulator card, but I don't.

This topic is not debatable, since everyone is locked in their mind, which is okay. I like PC over console, you might like console over PC. I don't care.

	16-12-2002 03:30									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Btw adventures still exist on PC such as Syberia etc,

You are just proving my earlier point about the adventure genera on the PC. Look at the sale numbers.

	16-12-2002 03:31									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I always thought console games cost more than pc games?

anyways, trajanus, I feel very strongly towards misinformed people who even try to claim console games are better than PC games.

	16-12-2002 03:33									#23
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You are just proving my earlier point about the adventure genera on the PC. Look at the sale numbers.

Huh?

I don't know the numbers, but IIRC, the sales for Syberia have been high enough that they're doing a sequel.

Also, Dreamcatcher, a publisher of mostly adventure games (until the last 6 months or so, whe they've expanded into other genres as well), has been making money, not losing it.

	16-12-2002 03:39									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus hypocrisy..where? if you are referring to my typo...well that's cos i type quickly and not in my own language, kay?

No, I was referring to how you dismissed the entire realm of console gaming by saying it's for dumbasses.

Saying something like that makes you a dumbass.

quote: I actually find the graphics better on my TFT screen than on my TV.. (too much blocks and so on...hate seeing blocks)

I find graphics better on my 36" HDTV than my 19" CRT-monitor. The sound is a helluva lot better too.

	16-12-2002 03:40									#25
	Got spare money?

So, plug your HDTV into your computers graphics card.

	16-12-2002 03:43									#26
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Fez, Fez, Fez...leave this for the big boys.

quote: Originally posted by Fez Sh*tty console games can kiss my ass. Computer games will always lead ahead. This decline is temporary and it will quickly reverse. It is obvious that computer games are superior to console games in general, and that is what counts.

This makes no sense. Console games have outsold PC games by a good margin for at least the past five years. And now, PC games sales are shrinking and console games continue to break new records...

quote: And especially this is a load of crap: Excuse me? Whoever said that probably was smoking some serious crap. PC games will always have better game play, graphics and sounds because the hardware is better. The X-box has a celeron right? So it can kiss my ass.

It's all so easy when you ignore what you don't want to see. No, the Xbox does not have a Celeron, the Xbox has a P3 with 128KB of L2 cache. That's not how a Celeron is defined, in fact a Celeron is crippled in numerous ways that the P3's CPU is not.

Then there's the issue of how you can "write to the metal" on the Xbox that you can't on the PC. The Xbox's graphics chip is essentially a GeForce 4 chip at 233MHz. John Carmack says you can expect twice the performance out of a fixed platform like the Xbox than you can out of an equivalent PC. The Xbox doesn't have a 1GB/s AGP bus as a bottleneck.

Because PC architecture is so varied, they can't do much optimization for it for each platform of PC. They can on the Xbox. For example, the PC version of Rallisport Challenge chugs along on a 2600+ Athlon XP system with a GeForce 4 Ti4600 on the PC, and it never dips below 30fps on the Xbox.

quote: Oh and you console lovers, should just wait until PC game companies release their vicious assault coming after Christmas. SimCity4, Vietcong, and all these other games will really tear apart the console market. From what I see, the superior hardware in PCs have already alienated consoles from making any further gains.

Fez, that is soooooooo lame.

	16-12-2002 03:45									#27
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns So, plug your HDTV into your computers graphics card.

Which graphics card has good 1080i output?

I have yet to hear of one with competent HDTV output, aside from the ATI AllInWonder series which is crap for gaming...

Besides, a video card with competent HDTV output costs more than the entire Xbox itself.

Not to mention the fact that it's a bigger pain in the ass to deal with patches, installations, etc. on the PC. And the fact that it's much more difficult to, say, get 4 players in the same room playing.

The only PC games that are better than their console counterparts are strategy games (a la Civ3 and RoN), hardcore multiplayer FPS games (CS), and perhaps card games.

	16-12-2002 03:58									#28
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Consoles as we knew them 5 years ago are dyning. Consoles are turning into computers hooked up to a TV instead of a monitor.

Fez is right, CONSOLES SUCK.

	16-12-2002 04:07									#29
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i think one of the biggest problems with pc gaming is that mainstream computers people buy at retail stores have shitty ass graphics cards, it seems like pc makers will give a p4 2.4 gig cpu, but then couple it with a GeForce2

i think that the pc market needs to streamline the hardware end as much as possible, and even then i'm not sure if pc gaming wouldn't keep up with consoles

however simply because console gaming is huge, doesn't mean that pc gaiming is dead

quote: PC game sales are projected to reach only $1.4 billion, or flat with 2001

seeing as it's a 1.4 billion dollar industry makes me think that pc gaming isn't going anywhere for a while

	16-12-2002 04:12									#30
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There is still an active and alive market for PC games. Certain companies are doing very well, Blizzard for instance is getting very rich over WC3. Or take a look at Paradox, they have a very solid market with their EU-type game series.